Re: Update #16
 

Jessica,
I understand your position here but FIRST is slowly teaching us that the only way things like this get handled are if we make a big fuss about it. I know that's probably not the truth, but since these changes keep coming with no explanation until a big stink is made people are starting to believe they have to make the big stink to get issues looked at.

Case in point: the scheduling algorithm. Who knows what the real story is behind the scenes, but the problems with the scheduling were clearly reported after the pre-ship scrimmages. Nothing was said or done about it before the week 1 regionals (where it obviously upset a lot of people) at which point everyone made a big fuss and now it's being dealt with. To many of us, it looks like FIRST knew about the problem but chose to ignore it until a whole bunch of people got mad and got vocal. Now, if instead there had been an announcement that said "Yeah, the scheduling sucks but we just can't fix it in time for week 1, bear with us and it will be ready for week 2" (assuming that's why they didn't fix it for week 1 in the first place) then people still would have been mad but the big fuss probably would have been avoided. Similar examples to this are abundant (AVA is another).

Re: Update #16
 

While I in no way advocate (and have been vocal in my dissatisfaction earlier in this thread) this rule, instead of bashing FIRST, why not work towards a solution? While FIRST typically lacks the transparency and accountability we want any organization to have, I doubt that they do not hear our reactions. This is quite obvious, by the reaction of FIRST and Autodesk to reinstate the regional AVA, and FIRST attempting (albeit too late for many teams) to correct the scheduling algorithm.
Perhaps we should start an ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction (say a petition?) similar to the one created after the announcement that there wasn't a regional AVA.
Regardless of the next course of action, getting steamed and angry will benefit nobody. And coming from me, that has to mean something.

Re: Update #16
 

Ask yourself this, do you want to be the mentor who makes the phone call to a parent to explain that their son or daughter has just been injured? What would you say to a ten year old who is on a school tour of the pit area when a piece of non secured aluminum flies off a drill press and punctures his head, accidents happen. Thirty-three years of teaching Industrial Arts with no serious student injuries. Yes, I teach proper tool use and safety. In a few cases it was blind luck that no one was injured. After all, they are called accidents!

I don't think FIRST is trying to chase away veteran mentors. I don't think FIRST is trying to take the fun out this great experience. I think FIRST wants to develope a safe place for everyone to enjoy the event.

This is the 16th update. FIRST has made 16 changes thus far. I would almost bet the ranch that changes will be made to this for the benifit of all.

Ken

Re: Update #16
 

I posted a question to Q&A to see if we could get some sort of quantifiable requirements. Even if it's not trivial, hopefully some of the larger teams or coalitions of teams can get something going--and something, last I checked, still beats nothing. Hopefully the GDC will come out with something official soon.

Re: Update #16
 

Nobody will EVER dispute that safety should be priority 1 at the event. But I am starting feel that the safety issue has gone from proactive to obsessive. Just getting out of bed can be a safety hazard (6:00 AM, dark outside and my foot just found my 4 year old's lost Lego piece by the bed corner).

Re: Update #16
 

Let me say thank you to First for doing what they have done. Through promotion of First they've allowed many people to have opportunities to do things they have never thought of doing before.

Unfortunately, like many of you, I think First may be falling victim to their own success. The instruction books, rules, limitations, and general beauracracy have grown each year that I've been involved. I understand from conversations with other rookies teams that they spent a great majority of their time trying to learn all the various rules, regulations, etc.

Every minute spent reading rules, regulations, etc is time spent not driving a robot. Every minute spent waiting in long lines for a machine shop that may or may not do what you want them too results in frustration.

A "good" experience is generally one you can walk away from knowing that you did your best. When, however, there are so many impediments to doing your best that you walk away with a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach, that's when people begin to think about other options. Keep it simple. Simple to enter. Simple to organize. Simple, simple, simple. For instance: why are there limitations on the brands of cylinders when so many others would work just fine, and may be stock on your sponser's shelf? I can speak from experience on this one - we lost DAYS waiting for things to ship when we had parts on the shelf that would have worked just fine.

Now we don't know the "inside" story on these decisions, unfortunately. This may be an action that is being forced not by first - but by their venues. Much like the vendors who provide replacement electronics insist they be wired a very specific way, the venues may be forcing First's hand.

That said, I think there needs to be some push-back. I think everyone should understand the basic tenant of innovation - innovation is thought without limits. Innovation is freedom. Restriction or limitation of that freedom simply inhibits innovation. Being told "you can't" is a great way to kill innovation. As many people here pointed out - how many robots this year may be denied participation in matches, or even making it to Alanta, because something broke and they no longer have the ability to fix it? How do you promote innovation within a framework that limits it?

First needs to make a concentrated effort to remove the restrictions they've placed on innovation. They need to simplify the rules, requirements, regulations, and everything else that goes along with First - other than the game itself. That's something that won't happen over night. But I'm sure that if people let First know what they want, First will deliver.

Re: Update #16
 

This is actually a common fallacy: Appeal to emotion. You can make a similar argument about the robots themselves: What if a ramp deploys on someone's head? What if a robot runs in autonomous in the pits, runs someone over, and then drives over their head?
Or about cars: Do you want to be the guy calling someone after their 10-year-old got killed in the street by an improperly operated car? We should ban cars.

A better argument would be to find out how many people are seriously injured at regionals by team-run machine shops every year, and see if it is at all substantial.

Think of the thousands of broken bones that football churns out each year. That isn't to say that injuries are acceptable, it's just that having a zero-tolerance for injuries simply isn't doable. You end up having to restrict the sports so much (touch football) that they aren't the same anymore.

From personal experience (which is a fallacy itself), I've seen more people need serious medical attention at swim meets for heart, lung and shoulder (dislocated shoulder hitting the wall) problems than I've seen ANYONE needing medical attention at FIRST events.

It would be terrible for an injury to happen. But accidents happen. We can't let fear of what might happen or what could happen rule our lives.

Not picking on you specifically, but:
I'd rather make a rule saying that non-team or non-sponsors aren't allowed in the pit than the extreme safety nannyism this rule represents. Teams have been using these tools for at least 6 weeks before the competition.

My idea:
Just like robots, have inspections of team machines. If they are found to not be in good running condition or are ever seen being run improperly, put a "disapproved" sticker on them in such a way that the machine may not be run at the competition. I.e. for a drill press, put it over the drill hole. For a ban saw, put it over the saw. This would make it easy to detect people working around the system, and would provide an incentive for teams to make sure their machines are run properly.

Re: Update #16
 

I wonder how many times GM, Ford, or Chrysler screwed up...

FIRST is just like any other organization, the larger it grow the more complex everything little thing becomes. All of the previously mentioned organizations have people being paid to take care such issues. FIRST is made up of volunteers , who have dedicated their time and resources to bring us what we have now. Please DO NOT bash the volunteers( most here are doing it indirectly in some way).

People were making a big deal about the radios but IFI came through didn't it?

One of our GM engineers told me that walking in one of their Tech Centers without safety glasses is a couple days suspension without pay! (Yes, we all wear glasses in the pits, but this shows you how serious GM is with safety with smart adults!)

FIRST has just gotten big enough were it has take some serious stands on some issues. Just like all the auto companies they have to learn form their mistakes. Are you always happy with all the decisions your Boss/Leader/President makes?

Some are seriously expecting FIRST to be perfect. Maybe they saw something in the first 3 or 4 regionals that they didn't like...Please just wait for an explanation.

Re: Update #16
 

While some of these points are valid, never before have I paid for the privilege of being unhappy with the decisions people make.

Not only do we pay for the privilege of participating in these events, but we're also expected to volunteer our time to our teams, at the events and, with respect to FIRST-approved shops, carry our own liability insurance. There's some upper limit to how much we'll all give before we start demanding some visibility and input into the decision-making process.

Re: Update #16
 

you don't pay taxes? :)

(sorry, I couldn't resist....)

Re: Update #16
 

Actually, I can completely understand the shops needing to carry insurance, now that I think about it. If someone slices their arm off because of a poorly-maintained band saw in some team's trailer, someone is liable. Who is that someone? It's definetely not FIRST from FIRST's perspective, but since it occurred at a competition held by them through tool-sharing that they certainly encourage, a jury might find them liable.

Hopefully the steps required to become FIRST-approved are reasonable. Perhaps on practice day you'll just have to have it inspected, show your liability policy, and have your shop crew tested.

Re: Update #16
 

I agree with you on this one, but what if it where to be changed so that if you display safety with those tools to a safety judge, your team earns the right to use those tools. This would give FIRST the ability to regulate who uses their own tools based on how safe they can be with them. If you don't secure down the piece of sheet metal you are drilling, then your team shouldn't be able to use those tools. This would keep people and teams extra safe, and reduce the burden on FIRST as well. If you want to keep using that bandsaw, you had better use it carefully or we outlaw your team from using it. Plain and simple.


Brian Richards, 1983 Mechanic

Re: Update #16
 

We sign waivers before being allowed to compete at the venues that release FIRST from any liability for injuries and death short of gross negligience or willful misconduct. Something tells me that improper use of a tool does not qualify as either of those on their account.

The form also releases "FIRST's Cooperating Entities". I'm no lawyer, but I'm assuming this includes the competition venues.

I still think, regardless, that tool inspection is a great idea. The only major constraint I can see would be a lack of volunteer manpower to do the job.

Re: Update #16
 

I think everyone here needs to take a huge breath. Good air in, bad air out.

Now, do you feel the way you do because of the 100-some other replies here, or because of the actual rule? Are you ticked off because of what someone else implied here? Is this as big of a problem as we're making it?

FIRST recognized that their matches were not random. They also said that it would be fixed soon. Before they released this information, people were *freaking out* thinking that this was an intentional conspiracy to match "newbie" teams with other "newbies", to kill some teams, whatever. FIRST is fixing it. That sure seems a lot like what's going on here.

FIRST made a call. A whole lot of people don't like that call. Just give FIRST a little bit of time--they don't move as fast as our posts here.

Now, how many people here have actually contacted FIRST? Chances are, FIRST doesn't even know that teams are this flustered by the new ruling. Let them know! But please, please do so in a GP way!

I'm not going to interject my stance on this issue; it really doesn't belong here.

Just my 2 cents

JBot

Re: Update #16
 

To quote dlavery from the match schedules thread:
However, since FIRST itself just put this rule change out, maybe it is a good idea.

Contact info:
States A-L
States M-O
States P-Z
Outside the US

Re: Update #16
 

Insurance makes sense.

More than anything, people seem to be reacting to this awkward place FIRST has been in for a few years. In a lot of ways, the organization needs to grow up and start acting like an adult -- and I perceive some of these rules and regulations to be how they're showing their authority. At the same time, however, FIRST still relies almost entirely upon a group of volunteers to run its events and they need to involve those people in the organization more before they start to jump ship. Teams and individuals incur significant costs while volunteering as mentors or at events and FIRST can't pretend that we'll continue to absorb increased costs while, simultaneously, receiving less visibility into why we're being told to do some of these things.

If they don't yet have it, the additional cost of insurance to teams that have invested in mobile machine shops is probably inconsequential. I think the least that FIRST can do, however, is offer some explanation as to why we should bear the burden of this additional cost.

Re: Update #16
 

Hmm... This may be a little off topic, but for some reason FIRST's site is down. Not that I wanted to contact them, but here is the error:
Or, at least, an abbreviated version. All pages seem to be this way except on the www2 server. Anybody else getting this error?

Re: Update #16
 

It seems that there's another issue here, deeper than just this one update. FIRST has made a number of calls this season that have been perceived by some as questionable... changes to the pre-season design rules, dropping AVA, replacing the old KOP trannies with the Banebots, requiring the shipment of batteries, changing the match generation algorithm (and possibly not fixing it as soon as they were aware of the problem), and now this.

Some say that the problem is not that FIRST hasn't fixed this particular issue yet, but rather that they have made a number of changes, many of them midstream, and they have had unexpected consequences for teams. Each issue has been met with a great deal of whining, and most have been dealt with in due time. (The battery rule remains a mystery to most of us.) However, there is still a lot of heartache for teams in the mean time. The issue at hand (and I think what Paul is trying to get at) is not that there won't be any drill presses in the pits tomorrow. It's that FIRST has lost some sense of its responsibility to the community, and is making big decisions that affect a lot of teams without seeking community input, or at least providing some semblance of sensible justification to offset the unforeseen.

There are great ideas already in this thread. Stephen Rourke's suggestion of a reverse Q&A is excellent. I think it would be helpful to accept the ruling of Update 16, at least for the time being, and to focus on suggestions for solving the bigger issue. It's been said a lot, but don't forget the big goal of inspiration. Regardless of this ruling, we still have to be inspirational tomorrow and through the remainder of the season. It sure is harder to inspire when your robot is broken and in need of machining, but it's not impossible.

Gracious professionalism is important, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't complain. FIRST hears us, they know they need to preserve their customer base, and consequently I'm expecting change. (And I'm not talking about drill presses.)

Re: Update #16
 

Sorry for the essay.

I too got that error too on the site...

Okay, I understand that what I say here probably will not amount to as much as these amazing mentors and engineers and followers have already said.

Okay, I am in no fashion tooting 1002's horn. At competitions, EVREYONE knows about 1002's trailer. One of these reasons is becuase QUITE A FEW TEAMS USE IT. Trust me, I believe all we used our own trailer for was to lose some weight by drilling a couple holes. The rest of the time it was being used to help fix parts of other teams. Why do we bring this trailer? It helps us extend a helping hand to ALL other teams.

Also, it is the CircuitRunners, who are insured on our trailer, that are doing the work, not other teams. Yes, we know we aren't machinists by any means, but we are pretty confident that we know machine shop safety pretty well. I would much rather pay for insurance and would be more than happy to pay for insurance of teams with financial difficulties than to outlaw machining.

And again, what is the point in having a pits if this is going to occur. I think we looked at all of our powred pit tools and all we have is two drills that will fit under these guielines if they are set to power level 1.

How is FIRST to inspire struggling rookies and other teams when they're robots aren't working becuase they couldn't work on it during competition. It is a little disheartening. I know it is all about the process, but trust me, it is a little disheartening.

I believe the role of the Safety Judges should be expanded into Safety controllers. Something along the lines where their jobs are to make sure everyone is using these power tools safely. Not to just award teams from being safe. Maybe 1002 is part of the new gaurd of teams that doesn't fully understand what older teams are talking about in the shift in FIRST.
Someone please explain by either posting emailing me or pming me. I am curious.

Also, if FIRST wants to make this competition more like a sport, it is going to have to have functioning robots. No functioning robots = no exciting competition. Extensions of the build season to eliminate the tools in the pits would not work for two reasons. A. Stuff breaks. B. For many teams including ours for sure, the work left to do expands to the time frame given.

I am not sure why this occured so recently. We were asked to bring our Machine Shop Trailer to VCU this year (we did) and we were asked about bringing it to Peachtree also by people FROM FIRST and have brought it to every event that we have ever been to in the past four years and have not had a single accident or injury.
This leaves me greatly confused.

Also Mr. Copioli you leaving would not just impact your team, but many others. Trust me, when our mentors talk about the great mentors of FIRST, your name is always up there. In fact, our main mentor pulled me out of class to read your post. That is how large of an influence that you and your team have had on teams as far away as us. I respect your decision and fully understand that I have had absolutely no say in your decision, but I thought I would just throw that out there.

THIS IS IN NO WAY BASHING FIRST. It has provided an outlet for thousands of students to embrace their hidden talents, learn about engineering, and has pointed many at risk students in the right direction.

Re: Update #16
 

Dear FIRST,
I hope you are listening (reading) this thread.
I know you are working hard, harder then most people even realize. Some very well respected and knowlegeable people have answered with their thoughts in the previous pages. I suggest that when a Woodie Flowers award person like a Paul Copioli or Andy Baker gives their perspective, it is both heartfelt and indicative of their feelings towards inspiring students. Not just those that handle the tools and work on the robot but those others that may be rookies looking for help or veterans stuck on a problem or the freshmen in the stands crying over a broken robot. When a Jim or Ron Schadelee or a Raul speaks out, know that these are individuals who can turn a chunk of aluminum into a functioning part in the blink of an eye. (If I was able, I would nominate these folks for a WFA for their impact on students.) I know for myself it is hard to watch this discussion in light of the 11 + seasons I have participated in FIRST. In those competitions, I have watched these talented individuals and many others perform miracles on broken and under designed robots. They did it because of the deep personal belief that their work was changing the world one student at a time. I have seen hundreds of teams inspired to do better and walk away better human beings because one of these people smiled and asked if someone needed help. I have watched alliance partners give thanks that a well tooled and knowledgable team had taken their one broken partner under their wing and made a part better, fixed a defect, corrected an error. These people, these thousands, have heard your message and believed that it is truly better to be gracious professionals than to be competitors.

Perhaps you made a decision in haste or perhaps you didn't weigh all of the data equally. I am sorry but I have to agree with Raul, Paul, Andy, Jim, Stu and all of the others who have not yet spoken. The small tools in the pits should be allowed to stay. If there are issues unspoken, I am sure they can be addressed, please ask.

A humble mentor,
Al

P.S. I understand the grinder rule and agree.

Re: Update #16
 

Oops.

The year we get access to good tools and fancy equiptment, and make a robot that requires some accuracy, and then we loose the tools to repair it.

Had this happened the last few years, we woun't have even blinked. You can build a robot that is 99% buildable and repairable with a hacksaw and a hand drill. But you have to plan for it. Really do some engineering to make it happen.

We didn't plan on it for the first time in years.

Oops.

Re: Update #16
 

-groans inwardly- my expectations for this weekend have shifted radically.

Everyone has had vailid points, from both sides of the issue. Now, let me just say that I am in no way trying to say "FIRST is horrible" and I'm sure that we'll hear more about this update... but these are just my thoughts for now.

I must say that I sincerely sympathize and agree with you. This will be my fourth and final year in robotics as a team member, and boy have I noticed the changes over the years. It makes me sad. Things aren't the same, I can say that for a fact. I still love FIRST robotics because of the amazing impact its had on my life--I wouldnt be who I am today without it--but... ugh. Some things are just so frustrating. I'm so sad that this had to be the turning point for so many wonderful mentors, not just Paul, because I know he's not the only one.

I was there last year at the Championship Q&A; that was rediculous. I remember being so mad about the fact that rules were becoming so illogical, so circular and even seemingly pointless... and there was nothing we could do about it! No matter how many people talked and pointed out the contradictions, in the end, nothing changed. So we just had to make do, and we all survived, in spite of it all.

Clearly, it is true that FIRST teaches life lessons. Its just that today's lesson seems to be: Life is not fair. They just throw a new obstacle in our way, seemingly without regard to what those affected by it have to say, and just expect us to deal with it. And as much as we complain about it and try to offer solutions and this and that and everything else... until someone explains the reasoning behind this (there HAS to be some sort of reason they put up that new rule...) or until someone with some influence takes notice and helps us make a difference, it appears like we're just going to have to deal with it.

But from my experience, I have been in several frustrating situations where the higher-ups don't consuly those directly affected by their decrees beforehand. It is extremely frustrating. All they would have to do is contact a few well-known, trusted, experienced mentors/students/FIRSTers and run the idea by them before it becomes official. "hey we're considering this and this and that. what do you think about that?" I'm sure their feedback would be priceless. It's input from a credible source, giving a secondary opinion from a point of view that you may not have considered beforehand. Is it so hard to take two seconds to see what someone else has to say?

Re: Update #16
 

Last year at Champs Buzz saved us with their band saw so we decided to get a small vertical band saw. so we might be able to return the favor to another team. Well so much for that. such is life.
Not to mention the fact that we did not have a vertical band saw in the shop ether. Now we do!
See there is a good side to everything!

Re: Update #16
 

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.


Thought we might need some musical zen in this thread. My opinions have been said in this thread, I will not repeat them as I don't have the power nor position many others have in FIRST so the words will not have the same meeting, and I don't want it to lose their meaning.. I just wish the best will come out of this.

Re: Update #16
 

Al, I agree with what you said more that I can express in this post.

This thread has turned into something that it should not have had to. Most of the most influential names that grace Chief Delphi and FIRST, and the new people who are working there way to be the next influential people, have all posted in this thread stating their distaste for some of the rules in this update. It is a sad day when people say that they will leave this program because of a rule that hasn't had time to be reviewed or properly discussed in the proper way. FIRST has done many more thousands of great and awesome things prior to this rule and I think that FIRST will continue to do that in some shape or form for a very long time.

This rule will effect MOE and many other teams. C-clamp your piece to a table and drill it with a portable drill, I know this isn't the same as a mounted drill press but its what be done until the rule is changed it can be done I have done it before in a pit when our drill press was temporally out of service and it worked fine. Injuries will happen no matter where you are or what you are doing being safe with everything you do will decrease those chances of having an incident. If you do not have the proper tools or training find someone who does, and if you are at a competition with MOE find one of us and we can help.
FIRST has taught me and I am sure many many many others how to adapt and overcome problems thrown at you, here is another problem we can do this together if we work together and help each other.

Paul, please don't let this be the straw to break your back I am sure that you are strong and can make it through this you have added so much to FIRST and will take even more away if you decide to leave.

I strongly believe that this rule will change in someway and the world will once again be normal.

I hope that adding my 2 cents with everyone else's has raised enough money for FIRST to look into this problem.

Re: Update #16
 

I'd rather use a hacksaw and drill than play the same opponent every match.

Two steps forwards, but one step backwards. Lets make sure to keep letting first know about the positives, as well as expressing our concerns.

Re: Update #16
 

Well guess what FIRST? You are dealing with Engineers here and we are a special breed. Engineers don't want to know just that a rule has been written, but more importantly why, and who it will effect. The lame exscuse of "it's in the name of safety" may work for your average Joe, but when I can pull up an OSHA pamphlet that says something like "in a work environment glasses with tints are allowed", (just one example) then you need to come up with some better reasoning for some rulings.

Re: Update #16
 

Ya know, often I think that these knee jerk decisions and rulings are more of a result of the knee jerk reactions you find on these boards. If a rule is made for a season, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will find it, and complain about it heavily. If a rule doesn't exsist, those who tear apart and lawyer the rules will complain about it heavily. FIRST has probably become so jumpy as a result of the masses reacting harshly over the slightest thing, that they are now overgoverning. Or maybe there is reason to their madness and they just aren't really good at explaining...the employees are human afterall.

I know there is more to the picture than is right in the open, on all sides of the matter. I will not dive into that matter, nor do I want to.

I'm just saying, have patience my friends. The future depends on it.

Re: Update #16
 

Here's thought number 2:

Maybe FIRST is against the policy of people building their robots at competition. Maybe they are opposed to the idea of shipping a box of parts. Maybe FIRST has a good, legitimate reason.

But you know what? It just doesn't matter. If this was the policy, we should have been told AT KICKOFF about such practices. Thats my take. CHanges of this magnitude cannot happen.
It's like a company, deisigning a product. The product is on schedule, and is set to be finished on time. Then, The customer calls and says that no computers should be used for the remainder of the project, but the deadline is still the same. The designer does not finish on time, and is subsequently given a lower pay rate than they should have for missing their deadline.

Not cool.

Re: Update #16
 

I agree, if First is going to make a rule change of this nature, then they should do it at the beginning of next season, so we know in advance what we can, and cannot do at competition

Re: Update #16
 

i was just wandering around the Q and A and came upon this post:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...ghlight=mobile
question was posted at 330pm yesterday. and there is no answer.

Re: Update #16
 

One form of ORGANIZED and OFFICIAL reaction is a protest:

Imagine that all teams agree to not move their robots in their first match in the qualification rounds at this week's regional. (For teams who cannot complete modifications or make repairs in their pits for lack of available tools, sitting still on the field might be their only play anyhow.) The reaction in the stands will be something that FIRST will certainly notice.

Of course, this is an extreme reaction, but others in this thread have made it clear that FIRST "powers-that-be" need a wake-up call. This sort of protest might get their attention...

Re: Update #16
 

While it would be powerful, it's completely unnecessary at this stage. FIRST has not had time to respond yet. They patrol CD, and I'm sure they're aware of the upset. If they respond, and still refuse to give us a clear and logical answer, then we can proceed to more forceful measures, such as an official petition. Frankly, I don't think it will get that far out of hand, and I don't think that ruining 7 regionals is a good way to go about this. The show must go on.

The real evidence will not be in how many robots sit there in protest, but in how many robots sit there (or go MIA) due to long lines at the machine shop.

Re: Update #16
 

*sighs* I just got finished reading/scanning this entire thread after an entire day of helping set up the field at the Los Angeles Regional. The discontent shown in this thread is very disheartening.

While at the set up, I asked our regional director why this rule was put into place. I wanted to know why something that was going to significantly affect teams was created. I wanted the answer, not speculation. I was given an answer that nobody here has spoken about, and I will try to remember to ask the RD tomorrow if I can post it.

However, during my discussion with him, I brought up this thread which already had 3 pages in it and all of our concerns. The responded by saying that he wants me to talk to Paul Gidonis (sp?) and ask him about this rule. The RD stated that I would get an answer of "I'll have to talk to so-and-so", but he also stated that it would get this into the back of Paul's mind. And, he felt it far more important for me to talk with Paul since I have been mentoring teams since 2001 and understand the consequences of such a rule.

*****

Paul said that he knows about things going on behind the scenes that most of us don't know. How many of those posting in this thread know what goes on behind the scenes of even the most basic things that are required for a regional, such as setting up the field or finding judges or securing a venue? Having been on the regional committee for two years now, I'm slowly learning what's required behind the scenes. And, I'm sure that the majority of you would be significantly shocked at everything that happens to ensure the regional works. Until you've been in a position of doing these tasks, try to refrain from indicting FIRST for their actions.

Someone posted that they figured that they would be given the usual response of "I'll have my intern call you" (or something like that) if he called about his complaints. FIRST is highly understaffed (according to a former RD) with a group of people dedicated to helping you. I believe I was told that there are only 38 people working full time at FIRST trying to run 35 regionals and the championship. (38/35 = 1.xxx) They have barely over one person that could be dedicated to a regional if they chose to do it that way. (Someone feel free to correct the number of people working full time at FIRST, if you know for sure.)

I seem to have lost where I was headed in this section. Or, perhaps my point is to make sure you know what goes on before you speak ill of it.

*****

That's enough for now,
indieFan
Judge Coordinator/Judge Assistant - Los Angeles Regional
Robot Inspector - San Jose Regional
Field Supervisor - San Diego Regional
Mentor for Team 1070
AND
Full time employee of Raytheon

Re: Update #16
 

I read most of the thread, and here is my take on it


Is it fair, No
I agree with everyone who says this is a bad thing, but to play devils advocate, what if........*start waynes world flashback noise*


Team 1337 shows up for NJ, week one, competes through out competition, in Quarterfinal 1 match 2 1337 take some damage to a component of their ramp, a peice of metal need to be cut to fix it, all is done via time out, and 1337's wins their next match and eventually the whole regional.

Team 1923 competed against 1337 that match saw they were broken, and then fixed didnt think anything of it, and ship their robot to Vegas for their second regional, 1923 competes throughout seeding round and in qt1m1 their ramp breaks but that venue doesn't allow the use of bandsaws to cut stuff..... 1923 would be pretty upset about this.




while i find it weird doing this after week one events as most people would most likely agree, i think that if this is the case, maybe to level the playing field at all events. then i could live with this, if this is just a case of CYA then well FIRST needs to rethink its a) time frame and b) its definition of common sense. i.e. one machine shop for 60 teams.....

Re: Update #16
 

i was just curious....did anyone get hurt using a tool in a team's mobile machine shop...aka 'non FIRST machine shop' ? during week one? maybe this is the reason for the ruling?

i say we wait for FIRST to speak on this. before taking drastic actions like not moving during the first qualifying match.

Re: Update #16
 

I don't think not moving your robots in the 1st match will prove anything. While this is a serious rule FIRST has put into affect the only wise thing to do is to contact FIRST and find out why such rule was created. By Not moving your robots you will only delay the competition and the volunteers who have worked long and hard to set the event up would be the ones to get punished. Contact FIRST through their oh so wonderful Q&A forum and see if you can drag out a reason. It's quite obvious that they did not go into detail on what can and cannot be brought to the event and only listed a few tools to start. Contact FIRST and get answers, why give the event & your team and many others bad publicity by putting on a show by not moving a robot. I would rather talk to FIRST about this and find out their intentions (if any) behind this and see if an agreement can be made with some boundaries in place. We all know that this rule was made too late into the season and with any rule being made there has to be a reason behind it. It could be Insurance purposes, Safety Issues, Parking Issues or some blind mans dream into making the life of FIRSTsters that much harder. You won't know till you ask!

Re: Update #16
 

How many of you truly believe FIRST will leave you without a way to fix your robot? I don't, but I wish they communicated the "why" when they make a ruling like this.

Re: Update #16
 

John,
Just think if you need something drilled or cut at UTC. I heard the machine shop is going to be at P and W in East Hartford. How long is that going to take on Saturday with the parade going on.

Re: Update #16
 

OK, I first want to say that my suggestion for a "no moving robot" protest is WAY out-of-bounds. I don't think OUR team would ever encourage or support this and I wouldn't suspect other teams would pass on the thrill of competition to make a statement - especially if FIRST's hand are tied...

I don't believe that FIRST would do this just to create inconvenience for the teams, there's got to be some mighty powerful force involved to do this at this time. Maybe an accident or near-miss, or paranoid venue management has driven FIRST to make an abrupt, sweeping call that has hit some teams pretty hard.

Maybe it's worth looking at this from the point of view of teams that don't plan to use drill presses or bandsaws in their pits. Maybe their robot design is such that hacksaw cuts and hand-drilled holes are all that they ever would need for even fairly substantial repairs. Maybe the rookie teams, or underfunded teams, see the teams that bring along what they consider to be a machine shop as extravagance. These teams might feel intimidated to ask to use some other teams' power tools in the other teams' workspace.

Our team has brought drill press, bandsaw, power sander, pneumatic tools (rivet guns, nibblers), etc. to many competitions. We have welcomed teams to use these - if they ask AND if we aren't scrambling to get a repair completed before our next match. I never felt very comfortable having an unknown student walk into the pit and have to decide whether the task is something that I'm really certain they could accomplish themselves - safely. I've had to ask a couple of kids to clamp the part securely in a vice before drilling (big drill bit + thin material + no vice nor clamp = laceration). To have that sort of injury occur in our pit would be devastating to both teams involved - and could lead to further problems if a parent or mentor decides that gross negligence led to the accident.

Most of our structural material in our robot is aluminum angle, channel or bar. A hacksaw can make a clean cut, although more patience is required to make the cut than if it were done with the bandsaw. A lot of our drilling can be (and is) done by hand. If the drill press was used only when precision is required, we'd probably not use it as often as we do (out of convenience).

Perhaps FIRST could establish "quick-cut or drill" service in or near the approved machine shop with power tools provided by the teams. It may be that the cutting or drilling is done only by an approved person in the shop. (I could imagine FIRST Safety evaluating a few volunteers to support this service). It's possible that by the time we're late in the FIRST season, this won't be the disaster that some of us (including me!) envision.

Play on! Life is too short to be angry about things you cannot control and FIRST competitions should remain a "happy zone" for all the participants and spectators.

Re: Update #16
 

Guns also can be safe or unsafe depending on how they are used. Just a point almost anything you use can be safe or unsafe depending on how it used.

Re: Update #16
 

I usually only post 1 reply per thread - but in light of the controversy here I apologize -
I have to say that it is unfortunate that update #16 included the elimination of some of the equipment that has been okay to bring and use in the pits in previous years events.

This has obviously upset many people, including pretty influential folks that have voluntarily provided the backbone, heart, and soul in support of the FIRST experience.

I am sure, that FIRST will address the issue - but, in the meantime - we need to be careful with how we react.

I too am upset and do not agree with the rule change in update 16, and I will continue to try and think of ways to show my unhappiness to FIRST in ways that won't disrupt the FIRST experience for ANY of the other event participants. They deserve to enjoy ONLY the very best experience possible.

Post signs in your pits, wear buttons, write here on our website, start a petition, put a sign on your robot, have a moment of silence, document your displeasure to the rule - whatever...

Whatever you do - keep in mind the impact you may have on everyone attending the event, and don't ruin their experience.

Mike Aubry
Chief Delphi

Re: Update #16
 

We're only a third-year team, and we do not have a mobile drill press or band saw or pretty much anything outside a 7/16" wrench and phillips-head screwdriver. When designing our robot, we made it such that we would do minimal machining at the competition. If the robot isn't robust enough to withstand normal gameplay, then it's not ready to compete. If some features do malfunction, we have 25 pounds worth of replacement parts. We designed it so anything we would have to change is easy to disassemble and replace.
If a team has two matches 15 minutes apart, there is no way they'd have enough time to machine new parts for the bot.
We had no way of knowing about Update 16 when we built this into our plans; we've just had the experience of having a less-than-spectacular bot and missing matches due to lengthy repairs. We knew we didn't want that to happen again.
Thus, the no-machine-shop part of Update 16 likely won't affect us much because of our foresight in our design.
That being said, I don't disagree with anything that's been stated earlier in this thread. But based on lessons learned from only two years of competition, we know better than to bring in an unfinished bot or one that will need lots of machine work to perform.
I don't think rule changes possibly affecting the outcome of matches should be made after the start of competition season. In my eyes, the biggest problem with this update is its timing.

Re: Update #16
 

After thinking this rule over for the past two days, my biggest concern over it is that they abruptly told us this right now. If this was a rule that was released on January 6th in the rule book, then I'm not sure if I would be as upset over it.

The fact is that although there are a lot of teams who do build their robots using nothing but a hacksaw and a hand drill, there are also a lot more teams who build their robot using lathes, milling machines, and CNC parts. If we knew this rule was going to be made, then it seems like teaching our students CNC/Inventor wouldn't be worth it, if all they can use to repair their robot is a hack saw.

The one thing I am really going to miss (at least until I see a clarification from FIRST) about this rule is the gracious professionalism of teams helping other teams. Odds are at a regional competition, we may bring our drill press and band saw, but another team may bring this tool, and another team that tool. You meet a lot of new people in the pits going around looking to find a certain tool, and it's a great way to spread gracious professionalism.

I'm not going to say that gracious professionalism if going to be diminished, but not being able to bring tools to share with other teams is certainly going to cut back on the number of teams asking other teams for help.

Re: Update #16
 

NICE! I love it imagine if every team at a regional showed up with a sticker on their robot very simple but very visible the red circle with the line through "Update 16". Now that would be simple and unique not only will the FIRST field staff notice this but the spectators, judges, and Safety Judges. Also Judges in the pit are apt to notice the stickers and ask what they are about at which point teams should have a clear and concise argument stating their opposition to the rule. I imagine this would get you heard and the Judges should respect your views as long as you have a well put together argument, if they don't and they penalize you for it shame on them and shame on FIRST.

-Justin

Re: Update #16
 

In the pits at the regionals, you will only have a few minutes to sell your team, your robot, your unique feature, what FIRST means to you and your team-wherever your passions are. The judges then have a whole lot of decisions to make in a short amount of time. There are many more deserving teams than awards.
Of course the judges will respect your view. But it is up to the students on your team to decide what they spend these precious minutes on.

Re: Update #16
 

I don't have the clout or abilities that some of the individuals that have posted here but I feel it necessary to make two statements regarding new rules of FIRST.

1. Few have commented about the incredibly short-sighted (no pun intended) new rule about having to bring 4 sets of safety glasses to get registered. By the time registration was going on I had to actually take the safety glasses off 3 members of my team and bring them over (along with the pair I was wearing.).. in order to register my team... Now how does this make a difference..??? Somehow someone thinks that having 4 pairs of safety glasses is enough? or important? Or it is safer to show them than to wear them?

I also remember being delayed at a FIRST competition my first year (a few ago) because I didn't have a paper clip for my waiver forms.... this individual would not allow us to register until I found a paper clip and remove the staple that held them together.....

I only mention these things because sometimes rules are NOT thought out properly and people (in good faith ... presumably) make these rules ......


2. At the Pacific Northwest Regional .. our team had a small green battery operated metal cutting bandsaw in our pit. I helped at least 5 other teams repair damage to their robots with this saw and alot of help from my team and others... it got them back on the field.. It was operated safely in every instance.....I allowed many other teams to use it ... under supervision... and in 2 cases I suggested a safe way to cut something rather than allowing another mentor to use it unsafely....

I don't like the way FIRST has moved... but I only need to remind everyone about a situation several years ago with the requirement for personal information checks for all mentors/coaches/volunteers.... with the proper counsel from FIRST mentors and coaches I believe that FIRST made the correct decision to allow schools to do this on their own...

We shall see if FIRST listens to those of us who work for free...and work because we know that we are ALL at risk of liability...
You cannot make a robot without risk... no matter where you do it...

If we want FIRST to be risk free let's just give each team a pre-made robot... preferably a small one... that has components that can be fitted together easily and safely with little risk of damage to the mechanics or students...

oops wait a minute.. we already have that...

It's called FIRST LEGO LEAGUE....

I prefer the big leagues....

Re: Update #16
 

I don't mean to be rude, or inappropriate, or offensive but...

This is like the Boy Scouts of America telling everyone that the boys can't use pocket knives.

Re: Update #16
 

Seems kinda a waste to pay money to goto a regional to sit out a round, but thats just my 2 cents. Also, that is not the first time Paul has been asked to put away those tools.

Re: Update #16
 

I honestly have no problem with the changes to what we can/cannot bring into the pits with us. I realize that many teams have used bandsaws, drill presses, etc. in the pits without issue, but I feel that it is an unnecessary hazard to do so.

Think about it: Let's say one thousand people at a regional. There are 50 10ft x 10ft areas, all adjacent to other similar areas and directly across from even more of them. There are people EVERYWHERE. They are constantly moving, occupied with a large screen a hundred yards away, full of adrenaline and excitement. Is it really a good idea to bring and use fairly large mechanical equipment designed to cut things, grind things, and make holes in things very very fast?

I just feel that teams should be, and are, able to make any adjustments or repairs with smaller, safer equipment tat doesn't take up nearly as much space. I know that 422 never takes anything larger than a drill to regionals, and we have completely revamped and repaired robots in mid competition without any major issues.

I know that many people who have posted already know a great deal more than I do, and see the situation differently, but this what I see in it. I think we can and should just go with it. FIRST likes to make competing harder and harder for us teams, and we should be used to this kind of thing by now.

Also, to quote Dave from the VCU regional this year, "We like to mess with peoples' minds." ;)

Re: Update #16
 

i did not read all of the replies to the initial message that was sent to see if there was an idea similar to this one, but one of our mentors came up with the idea that a section of the pit should be roped off for use of heavy equipment (band saw, drill press, etc.) so that there would still be some place to work with big machinery. because at some points in time, hand-held tools are much more dangerous than drill press, band saw, etc.

i can completly understand why they want the safety, but in all seriousness, the teams need a place to work with more than just handtools.

so to make all of the lawyers out there happy, just do that: rope off a section to where teams still have a place to work.

if people like that idea, i encourage lots of people to take it and email it to first, because team 343 will.

Re: Update #16
 

We are one step ahead of you. I'm proud to announce that the crew at the LA regional took all this under consideration and has allowed teams to use these tools in a designated location, outside of the pits, under adult supervision, and under strict safety rules and careful operation. We feel this is a more than adequate solution for the time being, and I find that many teams enjoy the extra space to operate the larger tools.

Re: Update #16
 

This is what I have been hoping to see. Everyone complained about Update #16 but no one offered a solution to the problem. I would like to see all regionals adopt this centralized shop. Hear that Boliermaker ;)
Just make sure the adult supervisor knows how to operate the tools.
GJ :)

Re: Update #16 No Machines
 

I have been a mentor on Team 217, the Thunderchickens, since 1999, as a retired engineer, and a machinist. As Paul Copioli mentioned we bring machine tools to the events and always help other teams. FIRST events used to offer a designated location where it was safe to grind--good idea, but they no longer seem to do this except for a few local exceptions. Toronto, last year, requested that volunteers set up an on-site machine shop. With about 6 or 7 people staffing it we were able to keep up--no one waited more than 5 minutes for their job to be started. It was a great success and I will be doing it again this year.

I have talked to people in charge at various competitions over the past several years about ways to improve the supply of machine shop facilities. They don't seem to be interested (to give them the benefit of the doubt, I don't believe they think there is a problem).

I talked to Dennis Howland, a FIRST Official, last year at the Championship and sent him the following letter in January. The letter was also sent to Bill Miller, who I believe is the head of FIRST, that same month. No one from FIRST has ever contacted me to see if anything I talked about has merit. They don't appear to be interested. I don't think they get the idea that FIRST is for the students (not that we don't have fun too), and that students learn from doing and seeing things being done, not from being told things can't be done.
Bill Baedke, Team 217

Letter to Dennis Howland and Bill Miller (sent Jan 07):
I have been involved with our team 217 since 1999 and I have worked in the on-site workshops at several regionals and championships. When Comau Pico brought their trailers, in the beginning, they brought machinists, then, when they could not afford it, they asked for volunteers to work in their trailers. At the Toronto Regional, I worked in the all volunteer machine shop, so I think I have a range of experiences on the subject.

I believe we can improve the on-site machine shop service at the Championship with the help of more volunteers. As I see it there is a far greater need for machine shop work than is being provided. With hundreds of teams at Atlanta, it is not enough to have 5 or 6 people to help the teams with machine shop service. My observations over the years show that the need for work is very high on Thursday and Friday, then it tapers off on Saturday. Last year I spent time at the machine shop desk on both Thursday and Friday just observing. This is what I saw:
The Problem
People come and want a hole drilled, a piece cut off or some other small thing done, but they don't have the tools. They ask how long it will take and are told it will be an hour or two (or more). They leave very disappointed and go to find an alternate solution. After all, they don't want to wait. This means that the number of jobs done by the shop does not come close to the demand. When we had the Comau Pico trailers there, we had as many as 15 or so workers and we still could not keep up those two days.
I am not saying that the NASA people did not do a good job, just that we need more. As you know, I offered to help the NASA people do work, but was told that I was not allowed.

Possible Solutions
Try to get the Comau Pico people to bring their trailers again and get volunteers to work with them.
Try to find other companies that have portable machine shops to bring their tools/trailers.
Try to get NASA to allow volunteers to work in their trailer. They could use more machinists.
Many teams bring small lathes, drill presses, milling machines etc. and are more than willing to help other teams make/modify parts. The problem is in that large pit area how is a team needing work going to find the team that has a tool they need?
Team Tools (Expansion of Item #4)
How can we utilize the resources already at the Competitions (regionals and championships)?

A. Have a list available at the Machine Shop of all the teams that are willing to help other teams, and what type of machines they have. Not the best solution, in my opinion, but would be an improvement.

B. Ask the teams that are willing to help make parts to bring their machines to the machine shop area so they can become part of the machine shop. This way, jobs can be given to the proper machine/machinist according to size, degree of difficulty etc.
This solution solves another problem. Our team usually can bring more tools than we can fit in our pit area, so we have to limit what we bring. If we had a separate place to put them, then we could have more available to help others. This is what we did in Toronto last year. The leader organized a machine shop area with electricity where all the volunteers brought their tools. With about 6 people working, and allowing some of the customers to do their own work on our machines, we were able to handle about 60 teams quite well, so that most people were serviced immediately--no waiting. Extrapolating that number means we need about 25 people at the Championship.
I hope that you will come up with a solution to the problem of too much demand and not enough supply. It was very sad for me to see the disappointment on the students faces when told it would be 3 hours before their 5 minute job would be started. I felt much better when I worked in Toronto and we could do that 5 minute job in 5 minutes and see the delight on their faces when they knew they would get their robot running soon.

An added plus of having more than enough supply means that we can spend some time helping the students solve a problem, help them with the engineering or suggest a better way to make the part so it is stronger, lighter etc.

Thanks,
Bill Baedke, Team 217
76533 McKay
Romeo, MI 48065

586 752 3241 home
586 255 0025 cell

Re: Update #16
 

Dennis Howland is the Volunteer Resources Manager and Bill Miller is the Director of FRC, and Bill would be the one to deal with that situation. You shouldn't be put off due to a lack of response, both of these gentlemen get an extraordinary amount of email from many different people. Sadly, mailing a letter would probably gain attention much quicker.

Re: Update #16
 

well, im glad to see that since so many people are mad about it, that somebody is doing something. if we want it to b changed, then we have to do something.

Re: Update #16
 

This morning, at GLR, they announced that we could use grinders, drill presses, and bandsaws as long as they did not create sparks.

Re: Update #16
 

I have to say - the match pairings and sorting was much better at GLR than last week.

Thanks!!!

Re: Update #16
 

I must say that this week at FLR the match pairings were not any better.

229 played against 1126 4 times and with them once.
229 and 1930 play 191, 395, 1551 (all as an alliance) twice tommorow... Yes its exactly the same alliance.

I know that other teams competiting have played 5 or 6 matches with or against the same people here. Now i understand that FLR is small (35 teams). But still you should not be playing a single team more than 3 times at most. Let alone playing the exact same alliance twice.

Re: Update #16
 

Match pairing was not much better at Pittsburgh, either. In addition to seeing the same opponents several times, we were also seeing the same partners several times. In addition, I know that several other teams were having issues with matches being very close together. At least one team today had to immediately go on deck after finishing a match. 7 minutes is not enough time between matches. I understand that the algorithm is trying to optimize for several constraints, but the only one that it seems to be hitting consistently is pairing a low, mid, and high number team. I'm still not sure that this is what we want as customers. It's fun to see some balance, but I also like to occasionally see good pairings. As this algorithm stands, none of the Delphi teams (45-48?) or the UTC teams (173-177?) will ever get to partner up in quals. Some otherwise spectacular pairings (70/71, 111/118, 217/229, 1503/1680 come immediately to mind, but I'm sure there are dozens more) just won't happen. Personally, I'd like to play with some rookies instead of against them all the time. Does anybody think this is the way match pairings ought to be?

Re: Update #16
 

we had the same exact alliance for our first 3 matches....us(1126), 316, and 1728.....small regional or not that is rediculous!!!

Re: Update #16
 

Another update from LA. To me, the match pairings seem mostly fixed, and back to good ol times, as far as I can tell.

Re: Update #16
 

Sort of... we were against 188 twice in a row, and we'll be with the same team twice in a row tomorrow.

Re: Update #16
 

alright. I didn't take notice, so, Cory knows better than I...

Re: Update #16
 

I'm not normally one to complain but lately it seems that FIRST is giving all of us more reasons to do just that. My hope is that this latest misstep leads FIRST to come up with a systemic solution that will begin to address the underlying issues that Paul and others have referenced in this thread.

I hate to admit it but I did not read Update 16 until I was told about it at the Wisconsin Regional on Thursday. We were one of only a handful of teams who had a "machine shop" (band saw, drill press, sander/grinder) in our pits. The official machine shop was off site (minimum 30+ minutes for a part?? C'mon!) and we were doing our own work as well as work for other teams. I would venture to guess that we are much like the other teams who have simple machining capabilities in that we do more work for other teams than for our own. That is after all the spirit of FIRST, isn't it? Out of 52 teams at the event 22 were rookies and another 11 were only in their second year. This was definitely a regional heavily weighted by new teams. The ability to help these teams definitely contributed to their success. I can't imagine how things would have turned out had we not been able to lend them a hand. We all know that time is of the essence at these events and when literally seconds matter, many times it is critical to have the right tool for the job and sometimes that tool is a power tool.

At the Wisconsin Regional we were originally shut down on Thursday around mid-day. I was told about the update and spoke to two of the safety advisors, one in his first year with FIRST, the other in his second - neither had been on a team. They listened to my concerns and told me they would look into it. Clearly they knew of the rule but had no idea why it had been implemented. Later in the day I spoke with one of the event coordinators and was told there was a clarification to the rule that morning and we COULD use our machines.

Friday morning arrived and when our pit crew and mentors arrived at our pits, they were surprised (read as "quite concerned") to see five safety advisors standing by our pits. Once again we were shut down. They told our team FIRST had clarified the rule that morning and had banned the machines once again. Again, I expressed my concerns about the logic of the decision and again, they had no clear explanation as to why. About mid-day I was told we could set our power tools back up again. Huh??!!

My initial concern was over the fact that FIRST had made the decision in the first place with, as others have pointed out, NO explanation. For the life of me I could not come to a logical conclusion as to why. Are bench tools really more dangerous? Don't they trust us to do the right/safe thing? Are we drawing too much current at the venue? Are they doing this in the name of a “level playing field”? I just couldn't see it.

After all the waffling on the rule it was clear to me that the decision was made with little thought as to the consequences and no input from teams. This is the latest in a disturbing trend of decisions and rulings that appear to disregard the value of input from teams. The post-season forums to discuss how things went during the build and competitions are a step in the right direction but they have been hosting those for quite some time. FIRST needs some team representation in the decision making process they are using. Take some of the more outstanding, respected mentors - Copioli, Baker, Hughes, Patton, Olivera, Skierkiewicz, Green, Kanagasabapathy, etc. - and create a sounding board of mentors in the trenches who can provide feedback before these decisions are released to the entire FIRST community.

Our team has already discussed the "why's" of the power tools decision and are already discussing ways to address the problem but without knowing definitively why FIRST made the decision it is difficult for us to come up with details for potential solutions.

I am anxious to hear the explanation.

Sean

p.s. Paul - please reconsider. Or call me when you come up with something new! :)

Re: Update #16
 

I am very glad that FIRST backed down on this at GLR. They modified the rule to say that we may have drill presses and bandsaws, however because of the sparks that they produce, grinders were still out. This was adequate in my estimation and I am glad that FIRST decided to reconsider. Thank you FIRST for being reasonable and listening to us!

Re: Update #16
 

I called Operations this morning looking for guidance for my overfull email box and was told the GDC is meeting today. I have been told by Operations "to look for the next update." But they did not know when.
sigh...

Re: Update #16
 

I'm thinking Tuesday...as it has been the past 2 weeks. Also similar to Microsoft's Patch Tuesday :-D