Update #16
 

Geez, I'm never the 1st one to notice this.

http://www2.usfirst.org/2007comp/Upd...pdate%2016.pdf

There's not much too it, in terms of the number of sentences. But, I'll leave you to determine how this update inpacts your team.

BEN

Re: Update #16
 

No grinding wheels, bandsaws, or drill presses in the pits.........
I'd like FIRST to explain that one

Re: Update #16
 

w00t to changing the algorithm

Re: Update #16
 

no machine shop for buzz either :(

Re: Update #16
 

It also says no mobile machine shops. This is shocking as the machine shop at VCU took hours to cut a piece of lexan into a rectangle for us and it was horribly not straight. I think mobile shops like what the Circuit Runners had are nice even though I didnt get to see it.

Re: Update #16
 

Guess 90% of us own machine shops. I don't understand the why we can't have a drill press or bands saw. In past years I had heart ache with the grinding wheel part.

Re: Update #16
 

This is a change from previous years. For several years now there has been a rule (<R21> this year) against "private" on-site non-FIRST machine shops or large power tools; but FIRST has allowed teams to use such resources if they make them available to all teams. This year such things are not being allowed at all -- I think the reason has to do with FIRST's liability coverage. Translated: FIRST is vulnerable to opportunistic lawyers if they allow us to use potentially dangerous tools at their events.

I'm not a big fan of this change, but if FIRST says they need to make it then I am not going to challenge them. The shop facilities provided at every FRC event I have attended have been excellent.

At St. Louis last Thursday I had the honor of telling Paul Copioli that the Thunderchickens' band saw, which they have allowed other teams to use at FRC events for many years, would have to be shut down. Needless to say Paul was not happy with the decision, either; but he's a gracious professional and he complied with FIRST's direction.

Re: Update #16
 

So that's why we seemed to go against that one robot in every match...

Re: Update #16
 

Well I can understand why FIRST banned drill presses and bandsaws in the pits, as they are 2 very dangerous machines and in the pits there isn't really enough space available to operate them safely. I am also glad to hear that FIRST is working on the algorithm for the scheduling.

Re: Update #16
 

The only obvious answer in for insurance purposes. SOME Americans live for lawsuits. FIRST is covering their bases since they bear ultimate responsibility as promoter. They would be the FIRST to be sued, along with the venue where it happened, along with the Team that loaned the tool, along with the Fast Food restuarant that served up the too hot coffee that spilled on the machinist who lost control of the grinder, that took off the finger, that hit some one else in the eye, that caused that person to bump the person operating the bandsaw:, which sliced into the arm......You get the point?:ahh:

Re: Update #16
 

Team 1598 had a bandsaw in the pits at VCU anc cut a lot of parts for a lot of teams. John Henderson spent hours cutting for others. The safety inspectors were there while we were using it and said nothing to us. I feel bad that we were breaking a rule that I was not aware of. We will not use it again.:(

Re: Update #16
 

I would argue circular saws and sawz-alls are more dangerous. And shoot, a hand drill is often more dangerous.

But, I do understand the need to do this. I guess it all just goes back to the fact that you need to finish your robot before it goes in the crate.

Re: Update #16
 

You might convince me of not being able to bring a bandsaw, although I believe that a bandsaw it safer than the alternatives teams will end up using.

But no drill press?

Re: Update #16
 

We were not allowed to use our bandsaw at Purdue last year.

Re: Update #16
 

So, where is FIRST going to draw the line?

What makes a band saw or drill press more dangerous than a 20,000rpm Dremel tool, a Sawz-all, or even a hand drill? (Ever try using a hole saw with a hand drill?) What about soldering guns, or those deadly 12V 18amp-hr batteries? A lot of teams rely on being able to build/fix/modify their robot on-site with tools they bring, because they ran out of time during the build period. Had we known that "Machine Shops" were not allowed at competitions, I think many teams would rethink their designs and how much they chose to accomplish. Granted, there is A machine shop on-site, which requires a drawing and (in my experience) a long wait. However, quick and dirty does not apply here.

Finally, how does this compare with non-competing teams who utilize the "Fix-it Window?" These teams have a distinct advantage of being able to use all of their tools. How is this fair?

I understand that the Insurance Companies and lawyers are probably the ones behind these rules. But, if FIRST wants to grow this program and reduce costs to the teams, they're going to have to change the way we operate. Maybe it's time we all gave VEX a longer look.

I'd be very interested to know how much of my registration fee is going to pay for insurance at the events.

BEN

Re: Update #16
 

Ben,
I completely agree with you. I can show several instances where a hand drill is more dangerous than a drill press. So what is next, outlaw all power tools? And I am sure I can find many instances where a sawzall is MUCH more dangeraous than a bandsaw. The funny part is that we have brought a very small band saw, drill press and lathe to every previous competition and 90% of it use was to help other teams.

Raul

Re: Update #16
 

The lion's share (72%) of FIRST's budget, $14 million last year, went to putting on FRC events. This was only partly (79%) offset by the $11 million in registration fees they took in. The rest (21%) was covered by sponsors.

I wouldn't know how much of the $14 million went to insurance premiums but I'll bet it was more than any of us would like. Even so, I doubt it was more than 21% of the cost. So it is unlikely that ANY of our registration fees went to cover insurance -- that was part of the sponsors' share.

Re: Update #16
 

Great post richard...

Is there any way one can find out what % of that 14mil was acutally posted or spent on Inssurance?

The main reason i ask is because as everyone knows, you do sign waivers before you can participate at ANY FIRST competition.

Re: Update #16
 

yeah really. people use our drill press all the time. and so do we. that's upsetting.

Re: Update #16
 

I am trying to figure out how to say this delicately but I can’t so I am just going to say it.

Is this the beginning of the end for FIRST? Are the lawyers going to now ruin FIRST just like everything else in this Country? I understand that safety is of utmost importance to FIRST as it should be but doesn’t this just sort of go against the whole spirit of FIRST? We are in a competition after all. We are supposed to overcome problems and damage in the heat of battle. We are supposed to work together for the betterment of all. Now we are supposed to do it without power tools? I agree. Where are they (FIRST) going to draw the line. Maybe I can understand the whole no welding in the pits due to fire safety issue but why is a stationary drill press any more dangerous than a handheld cordless one? Why is a band saw any more dangerous than a reciprocating saw? Are we going to get another update next week that now outlaws cordless drills, reciprocating saws or any other power tools?

I HATE LAWYERS! There, I said it. :mad:

Re: Update #16
 

Update #17

Any tools that are powered other than by biometric motion are not allowed.

Re: Update #16
 

Update #17A

Lawyers are not allowed.

Re: Update #16
 

sadly, I don't think it's the lawyers' fault that this is a problem. It's all of the money-happy Americans who use (and abuse, in my opinion) lawyers' best abilities for personal and financial gain. This wouldn't be a problem if we didn't have to worry about the PEOPLE who might bring about such a lawsuit.

That being said, this thread is a little off track. We have no positive confirmation that it is, in fact, legal pressure that is the cause of this new ruling. It's likely, but I wouldn't be so fast to jump to conclusions without any solid evidence

Re: Update #16
 

116 is in the same boat. A couple years ago we designed our new pit set up (the "ark") specifically to set up our bench drill press, bandsaw, and belt sander so that both 116 and other teams could use it. And teams did use it. There have been a few teams over the years who have spent nearly as much time in our pit as in theirs. Now we are no longer allowed to bring them.
When I informed 116 of this at our meeting tonight, the response was shock and displeasure. I am NOT happy with this rule, not by a longshot.

Re: Update #16
 

I don't see what the big deal is...but then my favorite tools (even in my home shop) are tin snips, hacksaw, and files.....and a big vise...and I guess the big hammer makes the list too.

Re: Update #16
 

I think there are good points on both sides of this issue. I think it also varies widely from regional to regional in terms of pit logistics but obviously FIRST can't make the call on that basis. In some cases it is a safety issue in others it isn't. Frankly though I don't see the problem of brining a mobile machine shop if you are willing to be gracious about it and allow others to use it, within reason. Also I think there is a fairness here when you use a FIRST machine shop it is up to the person operating the machine, which as I understand it is not the team, so when that part comes out wrong then what??? I worry as well that so much of FIRST has become all about "cover your but" if you look at all the disclaimers, waivers, etc, etc, etc. you need to sign just to be a part of FIRST or volunteer at a regional it is really getting a little out of control, but I don't know how to fix that but it does take some of the fun out of it.

What about this idea...no "civilians" in the pit? Your engineers, your pit crew, that's it. It seems like this might solve a lot of safety issues in the pit. I know walking through the pits at BAE you can barely move and likely 1/2 the people (myself included) didn't need to be there. It would make things on easier on teams, easier to get robots through, room to work without rubbing elbows with every passer by. I know logistics doesn't make this practical at every regional but what do people think about it as a potential solution?

-Justin

Re: Update #16
 

Great to hear officially the algorithem issue is being addressd.
And, on lighter note - looks like there will be less to pack.

Grinders have been out for a while now, the real news here is that the mini-drill presses and mini-band saws won't be allowed anymore.

Too bad, those 2 have always been life safers - without them the business should pick up exponentially for the FIRST approved machine shops - let's hope that they can keep up with demand. We really don't need another thing to be upset over.

Re: Update #16
 

arent the hand drills more dangerous than drill presses. dont you have more control with a drill press, doesnt that make it safer.

Re: Update #16
 

Either can be safe if used properly, either can be dangerous if used improperly. Since you can't do anything about stupidity the only choice is to outlaw them for all. Why one and not the other, who knows? :rolleyes:

Re: Update #16
 

Both drill presses and handheld power drills can be safe or unsafe, depending on how they are used. Perhaps they have another reason for the new rule?

Re: Update #16
 

Perhaps the solution to the problem is for FIRST to establish (or allow one team to establish) a "Simple Drilling and cutting station" separate from the machine shop, so they are not loaded down with other duties. Three rules
1. Mark points to be drilled and Mark size
2. Mark cut lines
3. Wait in line

just thinking out loud

Re: Update #16
 

With a hand held, the drill (and specifically the bit) are the safety risk. With a dress press, typically the object being drilled becomes the safety risk (a piece of flying sheet metal can be lethal).

Re: Update #16
 

Prehaps instead of banning these tools, FIRST should allow them at competition only in a specified area away from the pits and only under the supervision of a qualified safety judge. If anything, it would give the judges chance to observe other teams' build habits (both good and bad) and make safety judgements accordingly for specific teams.

A little annoyed at the radio update, not the fact that it is useful information to know, but because it means that we must relocate our radio. (Currently buried deep in the robot next to the thick battery cables, with aluminum framing above and below.)

Re: Update #16
 

Those are just (good) suggestions. You are not going to fail inspection if you don't comply with the radio guidelines. Those things are so bulky it is sometimes hard to find space for them.

Re: Update #16
 

This doesn't seem like a particularly useful situation. I'm sure that most teams try to keep all non-essential people out of the pits. But I know that when I have had people at competitions and I wanted to get them interested in FIRST, taking them to the pits is always what interests them the most.

And on a more basic level, I don't know how pit scouting would ever get done if we couldn't have people down there. Because our drivers and pit crew can only help with that if they have time, which isn't often at all.

Re: Update #16
 

That exact radio information has been on the IFI forum and posted multiple times on chiefdelphi ever since teams started reporting radio problems (and partially mentioned in update 15).

Remember that this update only lists the mounting guidelines as a recommendation.

Re: Update #16
 

i forsee really long lines, and frustrated workers at FIRST machine shops

Re: Update #16
 

I think the cutting and drilling station idea has some merit as an alternative. As a side note, in my actuarial experience I discovered that statistically speaking, drill presses are among the most dangerous shop tools, particularly in an enclosed space. Sean Lavery is quite correct when he pointed out the flying metal danger.

As for hating the lawyers, or hating people trying to make a quick buck, we have to remember that another reason the system is the way it is now. There is a direct causal link to people and corporations who tried to evade responsibility when they actually did do something wrong or unsafe.

PS-Glad we are going to Pittsburgh. Always a top notch (and efficient) machine shop there.

Re: Update #16
 

I foresee a massive backup at the regional machine shops...

Now if you want to do something as simple as cut a piece of metal, it seems you will be making a trip to the machine shop. I suppose there are smaller, hand held version of these cutting tools though that are more mobile, but also could be potentially more dangerous than their stationary counterparts.

Maybe all of this could be avoided by teams signing another waiver of some sort?

Re: Update #16
 

yeah someone get one it have home work cant do it -_-;

-good bye power saws hello hand saws

Re: Update #16
 

From my perspective, outlawing drill presses is not a good move. I have hurt myself on a hand drill more than I have on a drill press. I do in fact now have limited motion on my right wrist due to a hand drill.

Re: Update #16
 

Brilliant!

I see no reason that a team should have to venture down to the machine shop just to use a band saw or a drill press to cut a single piece of material, and nor would I want to lose a "quick and easy" approach to cutting a simple piece of aluminum angle or Lexan if needed.

A special "drill press and band saw" area at each regional (maybe the size of two pits?) with one of each machine in there, and both being overseen by a judge/volunteer, would be a much better solution from FIRST rather than simply outright banning them.

If they really want to be safe, they can even 'enclose' the area with cloth sides to prevent any bits or chips from flying anywhere*, much like they do with mechanical voting booths, but with much more space around the tools.

I really don't want to see FIRST regress to the point of practically having to wrap everything in bubble wrap to pacify concerns over safety. If I know what I am doing, pay careful attention to what I am doing, and have respect for the tools that I use, then I shouldn't ever get hurt. No matter what injury ever occurs, a lack of one of these is always to blame, unless it's just some freak accident. Then again, in a freak accident a piece of space junk reentering the atmosphere could crash into my house tomorrow...

* Although in all the years I've used drill presses at school, robotics, and in my own basement, I have never seen chips fly more than two or three feet from a drill press. The only time 'shrapnel' becomes in issue is when someone who does not know how to use a drill press tries to drill through a small piece of material without clamping it down in a drill-press vice, and the drill bit 'sticks' in it and the material is ripped out of their hands and begins spinning like crazy.

Re: Update #16
 

your footnote needs to be full size, because this is likely the real problem....

Re: Update #16
 

Guys, you can't stump for both decreased regional fees AND increased safety hazards in the pits. Pick one. While there are many opinions being tossed around here about how hand drills and things are just as dangerous as drill presses and bandsaws, I submit that you probably don't know what you're talking about. Insurance companies live and die by knowing the actual hard numbers on what things are and aren't dangerous. If they say banning these tools makes for less risk and lower premiums... Well you might want to believe them.

As to why drill presses and bandsaws and not hand drills and dremels... Almost all cordless drills max out at less than 1/2 horsepower. Drill presses, meanwhile, start at 1/2 horsepower and move up pretty quickly from there. Bandsaws simlarly. These mini versions are still dangerous and not to be trifled with. Basically, the fact that jig saws and hand drills can be dangerous in some situations doesn't mean that these mini versions aren't more dangerous.

As to suddenly having no options for quickly cutting angle, tube, etc.... Well I've never been failed by a good old fashioned hacksaw and the only injuries they've given me are a few barked knuckles and the occasional scald from tiny hot pieces of screws.

Re: Update #16
 

I am not going to believe them .... because at this point in time we have absolutely no information to make us conclude that this restriction is in fact coming from the insurance companies. It could just as easily be coming from an exceptionally cautious person at FIRST that is trying to head off a perceived potential confrontation with an insurance company without considering the impact on the teams, or an over-zealous "safety expert" from one of the regional competitions that happened to get the ear of someone at FIRST. So before anyone starts making any assumptions about why this rule has been put in place, or about perceived threats from lawsuit-happy lawyers, or what some insurance company may or may not think is dangerous, I think we need to ask a few questions and get a few facts.

-dave

Re: Update #16
 

This is the last straw for me. This is my last year in FIRST.

Yes. That is what I said. This is my last year in FIRST. It is clear to me that the individuals in FIRST that are making decisions clearly do not care about the teams. I am serious. I truly believe they do not care about the teams.

In St. Louis, Richard informed me that Bill Miller himself personally instructed Richard to contact me and put a halt to my illegal bandsaw. In true Richard fashion, he even stated a rule that prohibits teams from having private "machine shops". This is classic; we had our bandsaw in our trailer packed away. A team approached us and asked us if we had a bandsaw and we said yes. We unpacked the bandsaw for the team and cut their parts (all of about 5 minutes). This was around 8:30am. At 2:30pm we made an announcement to make it available to all teams. Our bandsaw was illegal because we didn't make it available to all teams at 8:30 when we pulled it out (for another team). Needless to say, no one was able to use our bandsaw.

Richard was doing his job and he did it with class and professionalism. I would not have been able to deliver the message in such a way.

In the last 4 years we have brought our mini mill, mini lathe, and bandsaw to every competition. We have machined parts for at least 100 teams over the past years at competitions. In St. Louis, our mini-lathe was busy on Thursday for 8 hours (at least). We only used our lathe for 1 of our parts.

The FIRST society is made up of good people. The lawmakers in FIRST (that is what they are) are not listening to the people. The people have no representation and that is the root cause of the problem.

This rule is ridiculous. This rule is an extreme reaction. This rule is typical of the new FIRST. I am out. I will find a new way to mentor students ....

-Paul

Re: Update #16
 

I was going to post a cautionary warning to FIRST leadership regarding mentors reacting severely to illogical rulings such as this, and that all the struggles with questionable rulings all season are having a cumulative effect. With Paul's post, I no longer have to do that.

This is sad....:(

Yo Manchester - please wake up and pay attention. Paul's sentiment is not an isolated opinion.

Re: Update #16
 

I'd sincerely hope that those over-zealous "safety experts" realize that there are many people who have learned, either through training or experience, to operate such devices safely.

So that leads me to trying to create a solution. We have these safety captain badges, right? Suppose that we put the Safety Advisors to work on Thursday, having them make sure that the safety captain for a particular team knows how to operate their drill press/bandsaw/can opener. The captain demonstrates knowledge of all the right practices, and that drill press/bandsaw/can opener gets a sticker from the Safety Advisor, just like our robots do. This sticker grants the team the ability to use the tool in the presence of the safety captain. It's another hoop to jump through, but I'd take it over the alternative.

To steal an Andy Baker spotlight:

Re: Update #16
 

I am deeply saddened by Paul's post. For the FIRST comunity to lose a person of his quality is tragic. I share his frustration with rulings unaccompanied by explanations. I would also like to urge Paul to reconsider.

Re: Update #16
 

No to jump on the "FIRST SUCKS" bandwagon, but what have they been thinking? Rule after rule this year (and a little last year) seems to have been made solely for the purpose of making a rule. This is not to protect teams, as I have heard of no occasions when people were hurt due to an "unsanctioned personal machine-shop". This, and many others are only there as a restriction. It is the same thing with the spirit shown at the Championship Q&A session last year... FIRST seems to think that if they said something, no matter if problems are pointed out... that is the way it goes. Not because it is right, but because they said it. Teams don't even seem to be considered any more when it comes to the hard decisions.


Overall, I don't know what I think about FIRST anymore... I mean, I LOVE it, because without it, I wouldn't be who I am; I just think that maybe it is going the same directions as most thins, and becoming less and less concerned with its members, and more concerned with being a Corporation-mimicking non-profit organization.


WE have been in countless situations when the kindness of another team letting us use their machines has saved out robot. It will be a shame when that can't happen.

Re: Update #16
 

I'm with Paul!

Who do they think they are? More importantly, who are we - and which is FIRST?

Re: Update #16
 

I too am very frustrated by this ruling. It is very unfortunate that lawyers run our society these days! :mad: FIRST touts safety as a foundation for how we conduct ourselves at our own build sites and all official events, but unfortunately sometimes accidents do happen. :eek: The liability thing is really getting out of hand, didn't we all sign waivers? :confused: Anyhow the new rule states ..."FIRST does not allow non-FIRST approved mobile machine shops ..." OK, define "mobile machine shop" ... we all use portable (corded or cordless drills/saws, etc.) power tools. Further clarification of this new rule is necessary. Definition of "FIRST approved mobile machine shops" is not clear. :confused: I forsee the FIRST provided machine shops will be swamped.

How do we as graciously-professional teams setup these additional "FIRST approved" resources to help ourselves and our teammates within the constraints of this new rule? :)

Re: Update #16
 

Many years ago, teams came ill-equipped to competitions, and as a result, many matches were played with "missing" robots (remember the placebo). I have noted that in recent years, rarely are there no-shows to matches, and I attribute this to better-built machines, along with pit facilities that allow for quick repairs. I can't imagine the onslaught on the machine shop to get even simple repairs or part modifications done. Buzz always shared their pit facilities and supplies with other teams, and would even stop repairs on their own machine to help others. What are the pits for? I guess we'll be using them to display a lot of non-competing robots.

Re: Update #16
 

I thought we were supposed to focus on wearing safety glasses in the pits BECAUSE there was metal cutting happening. Our team (and others) have handed out safety glasses for years to help keep teams safe, BECAUSE we wanted to still be able to cut metal in the pits.

I heard Safety Judges start this trend last year... "no band saws, no sparks, no grinding in the pits".

We're smart enough to build a robot, program the code, and compete with a new game every year. I suppose that these "Safety Experts" don't think we are smart enough to remain safe as we cut metal.

They need to figure out a way to let us still do this. I believe that we are smart enough to keep ourselves safe while still using these tools. Maybe there does need to be some boundaries set, but not omitting this use of equipment all together. Obviously, the people who are driving this rule have not had the opportunity to be on a FIRST team.

Andy B.

Re: Update #16
 

I have to say over the past 5 years in being with FIRST they have done nothing but change the rules in such a way that it makes it hard to concentrate on the competition. The people at FIRST believe that what they are doing is right but in the long run it is hurting the teams tremendously. Heck they didn't even say exactly what was banned or not.

I seen many teams use 18v Circular Saws and Drills and the likes extremely safely & they always were wearing the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) To say this rule was created b/c of safety or you did not make it available to all teams participating is wrong. I know one team that lends out 99.5% of all their tools and if they didn't want to lend it out to a team b/c they were afraid of it being damaged they made sure they did the job for the team.

Maybe the reason why this rule was created was b/c the people using tools show no respect during opening / closing ceremonies and are using such tools. All you heard at the NJ Regional was power tools hard at work (Espicially during the National Anthems being sung) even when the Pit Announcer announced that such tools were not to be used during the ceremonies.

FIRST has a couple of non-common sense rules this just falls right in line with them b/c now teams are forced to "wait" in line and have it done "by a supposed professional".

I have a funny feeling the company I work for the MTA NYCTA has lent out the How To Make Stupid Rules Up as You Go Along book to FIRST which was written by books for idiots & dummies. You think the FIRST rules are questionable work for my company for a month and you will find at least 15 rules that eliminate one another to start and another thousand that don't make sense.

Re: Update #16
 

Last year at UCF we needed to do some grinding, and did it outside away from everything using an extension cord. We were shut down, and had to use a hand file for a mind and hand numbing hour - which a grinder would have completed in a minute.
Perhaps they could let us pick an area outside and run some extension cords / power strips etc. and let us do it out and away from the pits. BYOT but know that area is designated for "hazardous operations". Then at the enterance of that you could do your safety check on the people coming to do the work.
The backlash of this rule is detrimental, so please give us this one, and quickly cuz were packing those tools today!

BTW the grinding we needed to do required it to be done "on" the Bot, so dropping off a part wouldn't work. A machine shop drop off (in our case) would mean missing matches while the "Bot" is in line.

Re: Update #16
 

I agree with Pail.

This is what ruling bodies typically do; they make rules/regulations without thinking about they actually affect those who must follow it. Sure, i'll admit that using certain tools in the pit can create a safety hazard. However, outlawing them completely is not the answer.

I could go on and on about a list of rules over the past 3-4 years that are completely meaningless, ridiculous and have no real benefit. Sure, they might be good for like one instance, for example, no shaded glasses in the pits because of the poor lighting, however, on the competition field, it's horrible due to the stage lighting, glare off all of the metal stuff, and the lexan sure doesn't help.

</rant>

Re: Update #16
 

Also to play Devils advocate here: In the years past, every time we used a dremel or grinder etc in the pit, everyone around us would look in great concern and distane. It's a natural reaction. The smoke and the noise can be disconcerting. I understand this rule. I've always wondered if they had a rule against it. Because everyone always seems so concerned when this is happening. I'm a little surprised by everyones reaction, if they've never experienced what I'm saying. However these are definitely necessary tools. So lets try to be a bit more understanding for both sides. As usual, I'm sure we can come to an agreement.

Re: Update #16
 

I agree with Paul ,I have been in First for ten years .I dont want this to be a bash First post and that that is not my intention. Now here the"But". I can't cant tell you the great memorys and joy ,me and my father and our team have
recieved over the year from helping other teams. Team 107 ,I like to think has a legacy of not just building robots,but service and Freindship with the teams that we compete with. Many of these friendships were made due to someone needed
help making something in the pit.
I understand safty has to be a concern ,but I truly dont believe the bandsaw is the biggest safty problem in the pits.I would argue that more accidents are from people try to hurry, the pits being to cramp and people not using proper tools.People are going to do what ever it takes to get thier robots running .I think First should leave the pits open late on the thurs night to allow"time" for team to get the robot repaired from shipping or just get working.First could set up safe area in the pits (not 20 min away)where the teams with tools and resouces would work together. I truly hope First reads this thead ,and hope Paul would reconsider. I have known Paul for years and
First need people with his pasion

jim schadelee
team 107

Re: Update #16
 

Hi Guys just a thought here...

The rule states that non FIRST approved machine shops are not allowed on site. It seems to me that some of the energy put into ranting could be put to use investigating how to get your mobile machine shops "FIRST approved" Has anyone who uses a mobile machine shop investigated this avenue?

Quitting when faced with adversity is not the answer. We have to figure out a solution within the constrainsts applied.

RAZ

Re: Update #16
 

Rob,

It's not quitting when faced with adversity. How can I look my wife and two young childern in the face when I tell them how important what I am doing is to society when the organization we are a part of is lost? It is lost. If I leave FIRST because change isn't in motion, then I WILL find another program to inspire and mentor youth. Heck, I may even start my own.

-Paul

Re: Update #16
 

HI Guys,

I think in general, people MAY be overreacting to this. When I read the update, my interpretation is this: If you want drill presses, bandsaws, mini-lathes etc. at an event, they must be in a mobile machine shop that is FIRST approved.

Granted the update does not detail what is involved in getting a machine shop approved. I don't see this as an attempt to ban machine shops and tools, jut to control them.

I could be very wrong, but before we jump all over FIRST for taking our bandsaws away, lets see what their Mobile machine shop approval procedure is.

Anyone have any insight into this?

Thanks,

RAZ

Re: Update #16
 

The safety advisor's at NJ were out and about all the time. There were multiple occasions where I had my safety glasses on while typing into the laptop and they would come up to me and make sure I had them on. There were all around the place making sure every inch of that arena is safe for everyone. However, it looks like doing that is not enough. They had to go to ridiculous extents. Pessimistic and faithless.

Re: Update #16
 

while packing for the chesapeake regional last night, we decided not to pack our small miter saw, but we figured if we needed a quick cut we could go to other team's pits or borrow some of their tools since we dont have many as it is. now my question is, does a miter saw fit into this banned category is it safe for us to bring?

Re: Update #16
 

I'm not going out and buying a trailer, generator etc just to run my grinder, and then man it all day in case someone else might want to grind something. I don't think a mobile shop approval is the answer either. These operations need to be done within the general competition area in order to be usefull. Not to mention If we have to take our bot out the front door into the parking lot, who knows what we're doing to it.
The answer needs to be something like reality. That means to write procedures TO actual practice and not to diverge from it (unless where necessary). We all built these bots using these tools, so all have them. We know what we need and how to do it. We all usually bring what we think we'll need, and borrow the rest. It's simple, just let us do it in a "safe-er" place and Bobs your uncle.

Re: Update #16
 

No, this is simply another in a long string of stupid rules, and it looks like it's the one that broke the camel's back (at least for Paul, and probably others).

I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors. Seems like they're releasing rule after rule which do nothing but tick off these folks. Perhaps wiping out veteran mentors is just another piece of the grand master plan that they seem to have to "level the playing field" (despite many speeches from Dean advertising that "FIRST is not fair").

I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many.

Re: Update #16
 

I told a few other FIRSTers today about this update today and every single one of them had the same reaction - "are you kidding me?"

If this is a liability issue, then create another waiver for teams to sign saying that FIRST can't be sued in the event that an injury occurs from these 'mobile machine shops.'

But odds are it's a safety issue. And I fail to see how this is the most rational, well thought out conclusion. Essentially taking away the tools that teams need in a robotics competition is not going to sit well with teams.

Scoring system issues, crazy scheduling, and now this bombshell - this has been quite the first week. What's next, no power tools allowed in the pits at all? Aside from basic fixes, would teams have all work done by the regional machine shops? I don't like the direction this may be going. And if we all don't like where this is going, then FIRST will see that. They're not blind, they do recognize us and they do take note in these forums. People complained to FIRST, there was a huge fuss about the scheduling and it's being dealt with. Everyone attending week two regionals, talk to someone about this, or contact FIRST directly to let them know how you feel about it.

Re: Update #16
 

It is a sad day in FIRST to hear a man of Paul's stature so affected by this rule. I think FIRST needs to evaluate their methods because many MANY people are becoming more and more upset with each passing day and each uncalled for rule.

Re: Update #16
 

How many of you have helped out other teams build themselves a robot on Thursday? It's amazing to watch.

No more one day wonders, I suppose. :(

I am all for safety, but this will put a damper on that teams helping teams. We may be misinterpreting this. Let's wait and see how it plays out this weekend.

Re: Update #16
 

I saw this update and the first thing I thought was, "Uh oh, an anti-ThunderChicken rule." Then, I realized that was ridiculous. It's actually an anti-PITS rule. Isn't machining part of what defines the pits? The pits aren't just for polishing up your bot and changing batteries. They're for FIXING your robot. Teams aren't going to last long without being able to fabricate components at their pits.

The second thought I had was, "OMG, Paul's gonna flip." So I'm not really surprised at his post. He has every right to be upset, but quitting isn't the answer. I've been on robotics teams (nudge) and other organizations where I thought a certain rule or certain rulemakers were being completely unreasonable. But I stuck through it to the end, fighting tooth and nail, until I was proven right. I think that's one thing that I learned being a mentor, that things you truely believe in are worth fighting for, and not quitting on. I believe in the promise of FIRST, and I will try everything I can to keep that promise moving.

There are people that are going to get hurt. I personally saw a kid get his nose cut up pretty bad, just by lifting a robot at Atlanta last year. That's worse than most people will see from a bandsaw or a drill or a mill. A much better alternative is an injury waiver at competitions. I don't see how an injury waiver would add any more hassle to the teams than now.

Paul (and others) - just wait a week. Wait for the finals where there are 6 boxes on wheels bouncing around, because the teams weren't able to have access to a bandsaw or a drill. Wait for the Saturday morning when 500 people are crowded around one bandsaw in the machine shop, because the provided "machine shop facilities at every FRC regional event to meet your various needs" doesn't even come close. Wait for the chorus of teams to complain that they are unable to machine the most basic components. FIRST will turn around so fast it'll make your head spin.

Also look for a "robotics team union" to crop up, led by Woodie Flowers Award team mentors like Baker and Raul and Beatty and Patton, to attempt to put rationality back into the rules, and make sure that nasty surprises like this don't happen again. If FIRST doesn't listen to people that it recognizes as true role model FIRST Mentors, then it is a hypocrisy.

Incidentally, there have been times I've known of when the FIRST field needed to be fixed and individual team shops made the parts to fix the field (because the machine shop was full, BTW). Think about that.

Re: Update #16
 

i agree with the majority of this thread. My team normally brings a drill press to regionals and if other teams come to us asking to use it, we will let them. All of our students are required to be checked out on drill presses or band saws by our engineers befor using them each year. FIRST should do something similar. Have people checked out for using these items instead of outright banning them. Either that, or have a seperate area as has already been suggested.

Re: Update #16
 

[quote=Dave Flowerday;592557]

"I wonder if FIRST actually would like to get rid of all the great veteran mentors."

As a nine year veteran of FIRST I have seen some extremely stupid and unsafe power tool usage in the middle of the pits. I for one am happy to see the removal of some of the more dangerous machines from the pits. The machine shops that teams bring to events and share with the other teams are another matter. If Team Crackpot can run their converted school bus/ machine shop in a safe manner, more power to them.

"I wonder how many more like Paul will have to leave before FIRST wakes up. Probably way too many."

I would hope that Paul steps back, takes a deep breath, looks at pictures of kids from past teams, and keeps on doing great things for kids.

Ken

Re: Update #16
 

Banning band saws won't improve hack saw safety. Banning drill presses can easily cause more incidents involving hand drills. The way I see it, it's not the devices that need more regulation, it's the procedures for using them.

After, all, the most dangerous machine in a typical pit is a FRC robot.

Before I get too upset at this new rule, I'm going to wait for some information on what "FIRST-approved machine shop" is supposed to mean.

Re: Update #16 - Speaks to a larger issue??
 

Does this update and rule perhaps speak to some larger issues? Someone in the thread mentioned that the people in charge at FIRST were not on a team and don't have those experiences this is true with some notable exceptions. But it seems like for a long time I and now it seems many others have wondered where is the responsiveness to teams from FIRST. It always bugs me that FIRST will issue updates like this WITHOUT consulting the teams. As Andy Baker said teams are smart, they build robots, they can figure this out out to. But FIRST doesn't ever go to the teams they just say "hey here is how we are doing this form now on." You would hope that FIRST could be more of a community and respect the community they have and be less like a product leaving teams with the only recourse they have in the business world, stop buying the product. I think though if you look back through the years there are countless examples of FIRST (and Dean/Woodie) ignoring the FIRST community and failing to tap the talent within. One example that sticks out in my mind is "The FIRST Song" who better to write a song about FIRST than those in FIRST what's more what a great opportunity for collaboration among teams (ala "We are the World"). On the flip side a good example of tapping team talent is the safety videos they do at kickoff.

My advice to FIRST is don't treat teams like your subjects, respect the community you've built, embrace that community, use the community to solve tough problems after all once upon a time that is what FIRST was about. Ignore this advice at the peril of the organization teams will stop buying a bad product.

Justin

P.s. Like others I include the disclaimer of I am not intentionally trying to pile on FIRST but perhaps this will be the tipping point or wakeup call. FIRST may be in charge but what are they without teams, and registration fees. I will continue to volunteer, and attend competitions because FIRST is an inextricable part of me. It's the teams who get it and it's the teams who can right things.

Re: Update #16
 

This is what I love about engineers and why I have spent my career (so far) pursuing faith's perfection as an engineer. Engineers crave and demand facts, and won't reach a conclusion without them.

It is a safe bet that FIRST has gotten an earful of our concerns on this subject. I hope we will hear more from FIRST aimed at resolving our concerns, and soon.

Re: Update #16
 

somone took the time to teach me how to use every shop tool they are not dangerous if in good repair and used properly. i have never dammaged myself with anything in the pit other than an FRC robot

Re: Update #16
 

Please note the phrase "in the pit." OUTSIDE the competition, however ;).

Tytus has a really good point here, which is that if someone as accident prone as him can operate machine shop tools without getting injured, so can everyone else. It's not the use of the tools that is dangerous, it's the lack of educated use. You can injure yourself on "FIRST approved" machinery just as easily as on non-approved machinery, just because you don't know how to use it properly. Education is the key.

Re: Update #16
 

I have to agree with Alan Anderson that the most dangerous mechanisms in the Pits are the FRC Robots. Just like the Match Pairings observed last weekend, FIRST will probably come up with something to fix this. FIRST must have some reason for coming out with new rule. Lets all take a deep breath and see what FIRST does now that they are seeing team reaction to the rule. We are all in this together, GP, is really all about respect. A small bandsaw, drill press, portable mill like the one used by Team 107, etc. are enhancements to the pits. Not problem creators.

I stumbled across a rough draft: TEAM UPDATE #17 -- No FRC Robots Permitted in the Pits.

Re: Update #16
 

to paul. don't know you,but from other posts sounds like your team and first needs you. think about it. you might want to set up off site-corner gas station- even if you had to drive a mile it might be faster then waiting in line.no on second thought maybe it is time to flood someones e-mail. don't know who to send it to.

Re: Update #16
 

If/when that happens make sure you give me a call ...

Re: Update #16
 

You do realize the entire story behind the coffee spill correct? That it wasn't just someone spilling coffee on themselves? The woman had extensive burns from her waste to her knees causing major damage to her body. It wasn't a fruitless lawsuit like you might think.

Re: Update #16
 

All of you, please take your hands off of the keyboard and take a breath for just a moment. The best thing we can do for the situation is not get carried away and handle this calmly.

Re: Update #16
 

People don't look at the robot as a dangerous machine. Its amazing to see how many times you can count a team testing autonomous code with the whole team gathered 4 feet around the robot. Just food for thought.

I was on a small team in high school. We didn't bring any power tools to events more than a cordless drill and soldering iron. Somehow, we managed to get by for 9 years without missing a match due to a broken robot. In fact, we knew waiting in line for the machine shop would be a bad idea so we made it a point in our design process to use modular parts.

With that being said, it is apparent that this rule does not affect me very much. Yet, I still think it is bogus. I agree with Paul and company in saying that the latest efforts put forth by Manchester do not seem to agree with the best interest of teams or mentors. Perhaps we should take up what Dan said, and create some kind of group to obtain leverage over pathetic rules like this.

I think Paul has made this fact very clear: FIRST needs us more than we need it. With no mentors, there would be no mentoring of students. Isn't that the whole point of this program? Do we really want a whole bunch of untrained high schoolers running around with dangerous robots in a convention center full of people? I'm not saying get up and leave in an anarchial fashion, but there's no reason for us mentors to put hundreds of hours a month into a program that will not let us do the job we are supposed to do effectively.

Re: Update #16
 

Since the Red Barons do not have a drill press or band saw that we take with us to competitions, we are not directly impacted. The lack of such tools in the pits will surely cause even greater backlogs at the FIRST machine shops. And we have been saved many times by those on site shops. If my vote counted, I would vote for a separte drilling and cutting station. It makes the most sense. It would relieve pressure on the machine shops by directing minor work elsewhere.


Regarding the Pittsburgh machine shop:
The shop is located in the basement of Benedum Hall, the U of Pittsburgh's Engineering building. It is three blocks or so from the competition site. You must walk up and down Cardiac Hill. And there is a reason they call it Cardiac Hill!!!:ahh:

Re: Update #16
 

FIRST needs to remember their roots. FIRST is "to create a world where science and technolgoy are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes." (Dean Kamen)

It is even in their mission statement: "FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills."
_______________

Without the tools needed, it would be very difficult to maintain these interests and motiviate these individuals to become more (prior to joining FIRST). It is like expecting to win a battle by only giving your soldiers the parts of the gun without the tools for assembly; you might as well throw bullets.

We would not have stories like the 10 hour robot built during Nationals in 2004. Please tell me that this story is not one of the cornerstones of inspiration. I would love to hear your explanation.

Please come up with a resolution to this problem. We are engineers, not lawyers. I do not want Dan Swando's vision to come to fruition.

Re: Update #16
 

Team 1114 regularly brings in a band saw and a drill press to events. 90% of the time it's being used, it is not for our team. There are literally lineups to get into our pit at certain times. I'm not worried about how this will effect our team. I am worried about how it's going to effect the numerous teams who finish their robot on practice Thursday. This rule just stinks.

Also, shouldn't have this been made clear during the build season. I'm sure many teams shipped parts in their crate, hoping that's be able to use a drill press to work on them in the pits. Knowing this rule in advance, would have dramatically altered their plans.

As the years have gone on, it seems more and more veteran mentors are getting fed up with the actions of FIRST. This year alone there have been five separate issues that have driven a large amount of people crazy. (Banebot kit transmissions, pre-season design restrictions, shipping of batteries, horrible match scheduling, machines in the pit. Not to mention the Hatch fiasco of the past two years.) If changes aren't made, the lifeblood of this program is going to slowly disappear.

Re: Update #16
 

I know it's a different subject but we are able to show FIRST the error of their ways and convince them to change.
We did it with the regional AVA. If enough people compalin to the right people maybe we can get them to change this as well. It's better than just gnashing out teeth and throwing up our hands.
We gotta fight for our rights guys. So let's use the resources at hand and do so. Otherwise FIRSt will become the cesspool that everone calims it's turning into now.

Re: Update #16
 

Everyone please read this:

My statement earlier in this thread is not really about the rule. The rule is a small stone in the jar. It's about the mounting evidence that FIRST, Inc. does not really care about teams or the members of the teams.

In addition to the public examples Karthik has given; I have a list of other issues that only I (and a few other FIRST mentors) know about. My list is longer than the public list and it points at a identifiable root cause to the problem.

For those of you that think my post was a knee jerk reaction; all I can tell you is that it was a well thought out post. I am calmer now than I ever have been in the last few years.

Maybe my revolt won't amount to anything. Maybe it will. Either way, I will be at peace with my decision. I do not want to leave FIRST, but it is something I feel I must do IF change does not happen.

This is my last public discussion on this topic ... until GLR.

-Paul

Re: Update #16
 

I agree with many of the other posts about the machine shop issue. My team (#1002) has a mobile shop in our trailer and we tend to do more repairs for others than for ourselves. Last year when we offered to be an approved shop at a regional they informed me that we must carry our own liability insurance, must be manned by an adult, and no students were to work in the trailer. The last two parts were the easy part, it was the insurance that became the issue. I have not approached FIRST this year but over the fall we colonized as a Learning for Life Explorer post and with this recieved a liability and accident insurance policy through the BSA insurance the cost is minimal about $7 per student/adult and $20 for the group our total was around $700 for the year. For the student/adult it acts as a supplemental coverage and then it covers the organization. I will try to see if FIRST will accept this and if so then this is the way for the teams to go.

Re: Update #16
 

I have carefully read through all these posts and have come to the realization that these problems we are mentioning (not only this newest issue), are not hurting the veteran teams nearly as much as the rookie teams. Last weekend I heard Dean give a lengthy speech about his plan for the growth of FIRST. He proclaimed that within a decade we have grown to just over 1000 teams, and within the next decade we must grow to over 10,000 teams.

If FIRST wants 9,000 new teams (and to not loose any teams we have), they first need to figure out how to properly supply the teams they have. I will not rant on the banebots issue more than I have, but there are other issues which have affected all teams (but more so rookie teams). Such as shipping of batteries, here in Canada there is no supplier of the specific batteries we are required to use, FP motors there is 0 stock left and no FIRST supplier to purchase from, and banebots running out of supplies their gearbox's. If FIRST wants to see this growth they are going to need to do a lot of work on their infrastructure, which is having difficulties supporting 1300 teams at this point.

FIRST needs to start listening to the teams, we work hard to try and support rookie teams, these type of rules just limit how we can help teams and are not beneficial to the community. If FIRST wants to see this type of growth they need to start listening to the great community we have here.

Re: Update #16
 

As many other people I agree and disagree with the rule. Because lets face, not everyone in FIRST is mature enough to use tools. I have seen kids in my team almost been severly injured from fooling around. I have seen a kid from my team sit at a table for 20 minutes and ust make a huge solderball. Yes, I agree, don't let them in the pits, but the stupid people are only half the problem. It isn't that if you know how to use a tool correctly you will never get hurt. What is your match is in 5 mins and you need to cut comething really quick and you forget to put on saftely goggles. Also FIRST is about learning and engineering. I know none of you design your robots to break intentionally, but maybe FIRST is showing us we need to tihnk about our designs more wisely.

But also, bad things do happen and almost everyone needs to make some kind of repair on there robot. Maybe some robot on the field was breaking to rules and ripped something off your robot? now you need a way to drill a new hole and tap it. I sure would let someone in the machine shop do that to my robot. Especially if it means I have no roboto for 3 hours.

Let's not over react here, think about how many teams get by with a hacksaw, cordless drill, and file. And well if FIRST bans cordless drills, I guess it is time to blow the dust off of those good ole' hand crank drills.:D

Re: Update #16
 

Being an outsider looking in maybe I should keep my big mouth shut...
but then, that wouldn't be me.

Looking in at First and seeing whats happening I have to admit I'm having second thoughts about getting further into it. Especially from what Paul and others say there seem to be a lot of behind the scenes action going on.

Now correct me if I'm wrong or if you only think I'm wrong...
Sounds like FIRST Inc. is akin to our government... the powers that be spend all day coming up with ways of helping us and making us safer.
Thats why when you call them, they too busy to come to the phone. Leave a message and I'll assigned a staffer, to order an intern, to get a vol. to answer your message with a form letter and a request for a contribution.

Someone mentioned a union , while I personal hate unions I'm thinking having a elected by the users representative on the FIRST Inc governing rules making committee might be a good thing.

As for all the crying, and complaining about not having this or that....
alright go ahead and get it out of your system... done? Good.

A mark of a really good engineer or half good protronie is... making do with what you got. No band saw? Okay learn to use a hacksaw... get a few people to learn the proper way of using it so one persons arm isn't noodles by the end of the day.
Instead of crying about things not being fair and this is stupid...
Find a work around... find a way to do what you need with what the current powers that be might let you have. :cool:

Well good luck all...

Re: Update #16
 

Before I begin, let me say the point of this post is not to bash FIRST, it is to provide feedback, because I have a theory that they aren't aware of our views, because we have not voiced them, so here goes.

I bet it took a lot for Paul to come out an reveal his feelings toward this. I bet he thought about it a long while before doing so. What does this tell me? That there are several other mentors out there who have simple become "fed up" that we haven't begun to hear from yet.

You've heard from me before, and let me step up to the podeum again.

I agree with Paul here. Am I going to leave FIRST because of it? Most likely not. I've tried, but I can't find a better replacement for my time. Would I like to leave FIRST because of all the unexplained and mysteriously illogical rules? You bet. We live in a world of explanation, reason, and logic. FIRST has become a world in which these great assets of our population are diminishing before our eyes, under direction of FIRST HQ. What is engineering about? It is about solving the design challenge, and doing so safely. But it is also about being able to communicate and prove your points. Even more so, I once had an engineering professor give a question on a test, worth only 2/100 points if we got right, buy we were gauranteed to fail the test if we got it wrong. The question was "What is the most important consideration in engineering?" The answer was "meeting the customer requirements." This is important. You can design the fanciest pneumatic rivet gun, suspension bridge, spacecraft, or organization (pause), in the whole world, but if you aren't meeting the customer requirements, it is of no value. I've said this before and I'll say it again. We are the customers here. Without us customers, FIRST doesn't exist. Does the operation of FRC cost a heck of a lot more than every team pays? You bet. But, we shall not overlook the fact that $6000, $10,000, $11,000 is NOT pocket change for the majority of the teams involved. FIRST can say all they want that we get more than we pay for, and we can never argue against this, because it is true. But, they need to realize the loops we have to jump through to get enough money to even enter, and the big risk schools take by spending so much on these programs, the constant ciriticism they find themselves under forspending so much money on these programs and simple fact that we need to make sure we get every bit that we pay for.

I want to see a general attitude of "let's explain this better" coming from FIRST, because, right now it the atmosphere from them seems a bit like "we know you love our program, you couldn't leave it if you tried. we know you are here to stay, and we know you will adapt to whatever we give you"

On the topic, I believe the pit spaces are too small for many things to happen in the pits. This is not the fault of anyone. It is dictated by venue size. This year, many of the robots easily become much larger than the pit area. It is not uncommon to have up to 10 people even in the pit area at once. It is just plain crowded, which makes it inherently unsafe in some circumstances. BUT, don't ban the tools altogether. Let them be used away from the chaos in a calmer and more spacious enviromnment other than a 10x10 pit square. I see a lot of "solutions" coming from FIRST to problems that simply don't exist. They need better problem identification and analyisis.

For my personal story, had we not been able to use a drill press last year, team 696 most likely would not have won the innovation in control award.

For the past few years (and even longer really), safety has been one of the key points emphasized in FRC. To me, this ruling says to the students, "you aren't smart enough, you aren't careful enough, you aren't good enough to use powerful and/or sharp things, and plain and simple, we don't trust you not to screw up." I have seen FRC teams where their students are fully capable of running 20 horsepower 700+ inches per minute quarter of a million dollar CNC machines, unsupervised. I have seen teams who's mentors are barely capable of operating a hack saw. But this is exactly my point. It is up to each team to determine their own comfort zone. Putting a blanket rule isn't helping anyone here. And finally, with such a big emphasis on safety, and so many people watching, you can't get away with ANYTHING. This is a good! Should any dangerous condition even begin to arise, someone, student, mentor, or FIRST volunteer will shut it down. Don't ban the safe for fear of the dangerous.

Mentors take great pride in instructing their students on proper and safe tool usage. The mentors on each team. It is not FIRST's job to tell a team that their students (and even mentors) are not good enough to perform fabrication safely. This ruling is an insult to everyone who has gone the extra mile to ensure safety.

We are skilled people. Let us show you that.

And my final point. FIRST Robotics has cost hundreds of teams hundreds more dollars this year, than in any year previously, due to what are in my opinion, poor and illogical decisions on the part of FIRST. In the first week of regionals, FIRST cost teams their matches, and more or less gauranteed that certain teams would have no chance of winning. FIRST has taken away our money, they have taken away our fair and randomly paired matches, they have take away our real time clock, and this week, they take away our machinery, and for many teams, this "last straw" will take away their hopes and dreams. What will they take away next week?

FIRST makes a big deal out of how few people are on their payroll. But how many thousands of people actually work for them each and every day. Look in the mirror folks. You are the people that make FIRST great, every minute of every day. I have never before seen a company or organization run by so few, giving membership to so many, that does not listen to it's people.

Re: Update #16
 

Unfortunately, I think we may be seeing the beginning of the end for FIRST. All of these problems are due to the overwhelming success of FIRST. It is just starting to get too big. As the number of teams continues to grow these sorts of issues become compounded. As much as we all want to see FIRST in every school in the World I think that ultimately FIRST is going to be a victim of its own success. The whole concept worked when there were hundreds of teams, not thousands.

For the adult team members (teachers, engineers, mentors, etc.):
Is it just me or are any of you at least mildly insulted by this new rule? We teach our students safe shop practices. While they are under our supervision they are “our” kids. We love them, teach them, and would do anything to protect them. We don’t want to see them injured anymore than FIRST does, but, we don’t want to see them injured because we know and love them. FIRST doesn’t know them like we do. FIRST just doesn’t want to see them injured for fear of a lawsuit. They are smart kids. They can design, build, and test a robot with very limited resources after all. Now FIRST tells us that they either don’t have enough faith in us to teach the students properly or the students are too dumb to get it? I find that somewhat insulting. Nobody is perfect. Accidents happen. But shouldn't WE know who can and can't operate particular power tools on our team better than anyone?

Re: Update #16
 

If something on robot breaks we can't fix it. What I see it coming down to.

FIRST IS NOT THE SAME ANYMORE!!!!
Last year I saw the most change with the safety judges. Im ok with them wanting us to be safe but we can't even operate a drill press do they we are stupid.

Re: Update #16
 

*emphasis my own*

I would like to bring some attention to this. This is a good point. What if a bandsaw, grinder or mini-mill IS the proper tool (this is probably very likely). Will teams go stand in line for 45 minutes with their robot out of commission, waiting to get it fixed by an "official" machine shop? No. They will find another method, an IMPROPER tool for the job. This is not only less safe, it is teaching bad safety and engineering practices: "If you don't have the right tool, don't wait or go someplace else to find it, use the WRONG one." Tell me, is this REALLY what we want to be teaching our students?

I also can't agree more with the comments stating how this ruling will hurt rookie and struggling teams more than it hurts the successful ones. Which teams are more likely to have poorly designed parts that fail? Which teams are likely not to have made spares?

I came from a team that had been in this situation. I can't count how many times we went to other teams' pits to use their band saw or drill press because we had to make a quick-fix part due to a poor design.

Last year we had an extremely temperamental transmission that ended up needing some welding. We sat out of 2 matches (on our alliance partners' requests) to get it fixed by the machine shop. If all teams had to go to the machine shop for their little fixes, I think it's no exaggeration that we would have been waiting almost all day.

I am upset about this ruling, but I am still waiting for more insight from those higher up. As unlikely as it may be, I have not disregarded the possibility that FIRST does have a good reason for this. I also support the idea of finding out exactly what constitutes a "FIRST Approved Machine Shop", and if we might be able to have 3 or 4 of these approved shops at each competition.

Re: Update #16
 

Thank you, Jess!

Let me say that my first and most vivid memory of my first regional was how teams helped and cheered for other teams. What can better express the values we hope to instill in students - and adults, for that matter - than the spirit and determination of one team helping another prepare for competition?

That said, we really don't know what FIRST's reasoning is behind banning non-FIRST machine shops. For all we know, it might be coming from some of the venues. I can only imagine what the reaction the manager of a college field house would be when he sees metal chips falling to the covering over his precious basketball court's hardwood. Or maybe some venues prohibit non-union personnel from using machine tools on premises. Possibly it is the same kind of interpretation of "level playing field" that led to the week one match generation algorithm. We can speculate forever, but until we know the reasoning behind the rule there is little use in flaming insurance companies, lawyers and safety professionals. Well, I guess they are always fair game, but that should be in Chit-Chat!

I do hope that FIRST does give us the reason soon (and that it turns out to be reversible).

Re: Update #16
 

I would suggest that (if it hasn't been done already) a team with a mobile machine shop (or the ability to make one on short notice) post in the Q&A about getting their mobile shop approved.

Re: Update #16
 

FIRST, please improve your two-way communication skills so that decisions can be made that people embrace rather than criticize (drill presses, et al).

Companies too often dictate change without comprehending the law of unintended consequences. For instance, a change made to restrict pit drill presses will have the unintended consequence of creating other safety problems; will impede teams’ abilities to make repairs, which in turn will create other unintended consequences. (For those of you schooled in the law of unintended consequences, you will recall that World War II was the unintended consequence of the Treaty of Versailles.)

There appears to be a communication problem at FIRST. FIRST does not seem to be adequately collecting the input from stakeholders before deciding on tactical change. Nor are they adequately communicating the reason for change. The lifeblood of dynamic, growing, thriving enterprises is communication. Effective communication can limit the number of unintended consequences that result from change.

One potential solution is for FIRST to implement a reverse Q&A process. Ask designated team representatives for input on problems or pending changes, prior to changes becoming law. People will feel engaged. Unintended consequences will be fewer. A better decision will result.

The Q&A system already works pretty well one way. FIRST just needs to use it in reverse too.

Re: Update #16
 

See this post. Getting a shop approved will not be a trivial exercise.