Re: Is this fair?
 

It doesnt matter, FIRST is infallable. Our whole allience was getting a "no signal" message and lost control at short times, but the offical just waved us off when confronted. Even if it isn't fair, you just have to move onto the next match. And I wouldn't call 40 to 46 an exessive drop.

Re: Is this fair?
 

these things happen and no one wished that it did.
It can happen to all of us.
For example, NJ had problems where they had to restart our finals match 3 times in a row! Team 25 was stuck on the rack and was immobolized. But, they restarted the match. We also scored during autonomous in the SF match, a rare occurence. Guess what? Restart again because the ref forgot to remove the opponents one that didnt score which did after the period started. Luckily we won anyways.
The worst is we have to spend over 25k per trip just to attend a regional, but hey, cant help that we live overseas........
Good luck to you folks and I hope it all works out.:D

Re: Is this fair?
 

Ok, let me start at square one...

First off, from what I read in your post, you're not a rookie team. Therefore you should have known that the sticker needed to be signed (the same as every other year), so you truly have no one to blame except yourselves.

Secondly...

To blame FIRST as a group and then to plead to them is contradictory. Remember that FIRST is not just the volunteers, refs, judges, and various others that make it possible for this competition to exist. It also includes the assorted teams and thier mentors, because when it comes right down to it, all of us are volunteers and this massive world-wide competition depends on all of us working together in that spirit of "gracious professionalism" that Woodie Flowers is always talking about.

Third...

Placing blame in the first place...
hmmmm.......
gracious professionalism.....
hmmmm.......

ok, I'll leave that one be...
I think that you can figure that one out yourself...

Fourth...

Always remember that tomorrow is another day. Even if you aren't one of the seed teams, you could still be picked as an alliance partner. You just have to show that your robot is dependable and that your drive team is capable.

That means that instead of complaining, you need find a "creative solution to the problem" (hey look! another Woodie Flowers quote!).

If it's too late to fix the problem, then there's nothing you can do anyway! So move on!

And finally Fifth...

To answer your question (the title of this thread)...

Yep...it's fair...utterly and completly fair...

The ref's call is final...the head ref's call is just short of holy writ...

That's how it works in FIRST, but you should know that already because you're not a rookie team.

But to end on a happy note...always remember that you're never the only one with problems, you were simply removed from one match (and that problem was rectified), some teams missed several matches or made it to the match only to have thier robot sit completly still...

So you're not alone, we all deal with it, so suck it up!

Re: Is this fair?
 

Yeah... Same thing happened to us (my previous team) at a regional last year (Chesapeake, I think..) During the match, we lost our radio, and 5 seconds later, one of our alliances lost their radio. I immediately called the IFI guy over who was standing on the side of the field, and he looked at it, I made him aware of the situation, and shouted for a rematch. After the match, I talked to the IFI guy and the head ref, and after 10 minutes of a VERY heated discussion, it was ruled that they were two separate problems that were both of fault of the robot, and the score stood. We only lost by a few points, even though 2 of our bots were out for about half the game. Unfortunately for my team, this was our only loss, caused us to drop from 1 to 3, which caused us to not get our first pick, who we wound up losing to in the finals. But you know what? This is FIRST. Sure, I felt badly and perhaps "ripped off" afterward, but I had no hard feelings. Soon I was over it, and all in all was very happy with the event. It really wasn't anyone's fault, the two robots failed simultaneously, due to an unknown fault. Putting myself in the other alliances shoes, had the problems been due to physical problems on both of our robots, I would feel "ripped off" if they let us replay the match. The same type of thing applies here. Had your robot *not* actually passed inspection, the reason why your sticker wasn't signed, I would feel "ripped off" if I was the other alliance because they let an illegal robot play. Even though your robot *did* pass inspection, the series of event occurred in which it may have led to questioning of this fact. It is what it is, through no fault of anyone.

That was a really long, probably unnecessary story.

Jacob

--Remember, good posts deserve good rep!

Re: Is this fair?
 

A single loss, a single match, or your ranking really don't make or break a regional. 45 was ranked 37th of 45 teams at St. Louis, with a 3-6 record. They were then picked 2nd, and went on to win the regional.
As pointed out a couple time already, you're ranked ahead of 233 at the moment, who's arm was essentially destroying itself earlier.

This is just a little issue in a single match. A volunteer made a mistake, and a problem happened. There is no guarantee you would have won the match even with you on the field (and for anyone to say so is insulting the other alliance). It's unfortunate to hear that happened, but it did. How you react to problems is the important part.

It's also unfortunate to hear the inspection woes at UCF. For most teams, inspection was relatively fast at VCU. The longest part for 116 was probably when the inspector actually took a break to take some pictures of our robot (the absolute coolest moment I have ever experience in FIRST, nothing could have made me more proud of my machine than an inspector stopping to take pictures). Luckily for us, we passed the first try (we had an issue with a single bolt on the machine, which we fixed while being inspected). Very few teams missed matches due to inspection, and the couple who did managed for enough other teams to pitch in and help them pass that they made almost all their matches.

Re: Is this fair?
 

Wow, I don't see why you guys are giving Sagar (it was in the AKA?) such tough love. Its easy to say these things sitting behind a computer screen, but I would really like to think that if you were put in this situation, getting kicked from a match for a reason that was in no way your fault, your attitude would be a little bit different. I know I would feel a bit disheartened.

Yes, it isnt right to "blame" FIRST, and yes, ranking doesnt really matter. But, at the end of the day, no matter how they place in the event, this team is going to have a bad taste in their mouth. I have met plenty a team who refuses to go to a certain regional based on how they were treated in the past. Does this make them a poor sport or lacking "gracious professionalism"? No, I don't think so at all. We are all professionals, and part of that is having the ability to chose where to put our resources. I know I certainly wouldnt put down 5 grand to go to an event where I feel I got treated unfairly.

Re: Is this fair?
 

I am personally sorry for what happened to all of you and my teammates negitive response, beleive me, i would love to have a rematch, and the kids on the team would too, but i don't see that possable, unless the refs agree to it.

yes the kids should have known about the sticker being signed, but most of the kids on this team are rookies themselves. the few senior members of this team were either at the lunch-in or taking care of other business (stratgey for the next matches).

My team doesn't have the spirit of FIRST in them, and i hope to bring that back tomorrow, i mean if we were to win all three of our matches, we would move up into the mid to upper 20's, and anyways, the way the inspections were going, most teams can't come up with a alliance paring list with a half day's of true competition.

Im gonna talk to these kids tomorrow and explain to them the meaning of FIRST and why you guys are here (UCF arena)

Re: Is this fair?
 

This post may serve as a valuable reminder to all teams that having a tech inspection completed at the last possible moment is challenging and stressful not just for teams, but for inspectors, too. While you are certainly allowed, under the rules, to have your tech inspection completed at any moment prior to your first match, leaving it to the last minute may well increase the chances of a small but important step... such as the signing of the sticker... being missed.

Secondly, it is another valuable reminder of the importance of having robots ready to run when they go in the shipping crate... and having time to practice with them before that. I'm not saying that is something we're always able to do... but then again I don't expect to win regionals against teams that were ready and practicing a week before ship date, either.

Finally, the responses to this post are also a valuable reminder not to get too tied up about a win-loss record, or to be too eager to issue blame. FIRST is run by people, and mistakes will happen.... what is amazing is not that they do happen, but how rarely they happen.

I am sorry you missed your match, but hope you realize that your team may have been able to avoid the situation by showing up with a functioning robot and passing tech early in the day when the inspectors have more time to dot the I's and cross the T's and check out their work with each other.

Good luck on Saturday,

Jason

Re: Is this fair?
 

I know this is kind of late to be saying, but it may help in later regionals.
One thing you could have done early is to have your bot weighed and sized. Than if you needed to get some programming done, you could have asked the inspector to come to your pit and finish the inspection while you were programming. I have done this in the last two years I have been inspecting. It saves time and results in a less stressful day for the teams and the inspectors.
As for being low in the standings. So what? Just show the other teams what you got and you might be surprised when your number is called during the finals. Our rookie year we were 42nd out of 50 teams. The second seeded team saw potential in our team and picked us. We took second at Western MI.

Re: Is this fair?
 

Well put. Stuff happens.

I'm sorry it turned out the way it did.

Re: Is this fair?
 

When I tuned into the web-cast I saw you guys getting pulled off the field, what happened was a very uncommon occurrence. Every team has probably been in situations that they thought was unfair. Sometimes the situation is just out of your control and you have to move on from it, and not let it get to you. I can tell you from being on the short end of the stick in several of these situations that the best thing to do is not let it bother you and cause more problems for you.

In defense of the Refs: In situations like these, their hands are usually tied by regulations. These regulations are designed to make every single competition refereed in the same way. In most cases it keeps everything fair and eliminates misinterpretation of the rules and personal whims. Sometimes it leads to unfortunate situations. It works far more times than it fails, but we usually only hear about the failures.

Re: Is this fair?
 

Honestly, the fault here lies entirely with the referee, who didn't show any gracious professionalism. The fact that your inspection sticker wasn't signed could only mean one of two things:

a) Your inspector forgot to sign your sticker before giving it to you
b) Your team stole the sticker from the inspection table

Since he wouldn't let you play, basically the Ref was accusing your team of theft and of violating the spirit of the competition, which is a very serious charge. Something that could DQ a team from competition. The ref should have let you play the match while the inspection sheets were being checked, and then DQed your team from competition afterwards if it turned out you had stolen the sticker.

Re: Is this fair?
 

NOt quite accurate. We got a sticker the first time we went though inspection. We had some minor things to work on. Friday Morning, the inspector came around, checked us and signed the sticker.

Re: Is this fair?
 

The referee has no choice in this matter. The rules are quite specific:
(emphasis mine)

It is unfortunate that the inspector neglected to sign the sticker and that your team didn't make sure they completed this critical final step, but the ref's hands are tied - they have to follow the rules.

Re: Is this fair?
 

That is a very unfortunate situation, but things happen.

I wish you were around back in the days before the IFI guys would tell you if your robot was turned on. I cannot tell you how many matches you would see where only 3/4 of the robots were moving because someone forgot to turn on the robot.

Now, IFI or someone says, uhhh team XXX, you need to come turn on your robot. How many times have you seen teams forget to close the pneumatic valve and lost the use of your pneumatics for the match.

Granted, you had no control over this, but try not to let the accident ruin your whole regional.