Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

At BMR we had 2 incidents where we were tipped over. The first time was a shear accident, where we backed up, and went forward, causing our robot to tip a bit... when an opposing robot contacted us underneath our kicker wheel. The result was that we immediately tipped over. During that match, we didn't have our wheelie wheels on our robot; the situation was purely accidental.

That team received a yellow card :mad: , and after reviewing the tapes, my team came with the general consensus that the team didn't deserve it at all.

The second occasion, we had our wheelie wheels on, and as we were trying to score, a team hit us, knocking us backwards, over our wheelie wheels, and sticking us in a position at a severe angle to the ground. We wouldn't have gone all the way over, except for the fact that the other team spent at least 30 seconds, repeatedly backing up and hitting us. It wasn't until they pushed a significant amount that we toppled. They didn't receive any penalties for their actions.

The refs explained that we were "in a position to score", even though we pretty much disabled at that point, and could in no way score. It was pretty disappointing.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I know we frequently do not have the bumpers on the robot during the first few practice matches on Thursday, either because we are trying to get to inspection between matches and need to save time, or because we are using the practice match time to fine tune the operation of our robot. Either way, we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first.

Also, since we don't own a piece of field carpeting due to financial and space limitations, those first couple of practice matches are very valuable to us in terms of our operators learning how the robot drives differently on the field than it did in the room we practice in at the school. It's really hard to do that while someone is running into you.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I guess you just have never been to Davis before :) last year our bot was on it's side many times...so this year we built a mostly untippable robot.

I just watched the QF 1-1 match, where you and 100 both were tipped. It looks to me like both of those robots are indeed prone to tipping. They have relatively narrow, short drive bases, and wheels/treads that are not very stable. Plus 997 is sort of top heavy, even though your ramp material is light weight, there is a lot of it, and it extends up pretty far when the ramps are not deployed.

Thanks again to you, 100, and 1458 for the most exciting QF series we've ever seen! Team 1726 wishes you all the best in Atlanta...

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I'm going to play a little devils' advocate here, because this bothers me a bit.

1> Do you really believe that your parctice time is more valuble then the defensive team across the way?
2> Do you believe that you need to practice driving on the carpet more then they do?
3> Do you believe that they don't need to know how their robot will react when interacting with other robots?

There is a reason it is called a practice MATCH, and not just practice. You should come to the field EXPECTING a MATCH. If your robot is not ready for the field (no bumpers, etc), why would you ask the other team to not practice the strategy that they came with???

I do agree that teams need to talk before practice matches, but that being said i believe it is not fair to ask a team to not practice what they would do in a match just because you are not ready. It's like asking an offensive tubing robot to not touch the rack or a ramp-bot to not deploy it's ramps just because you are not ready for that yet.


Sorry for the rant. The above is JM(NS)HO

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

You missed the important part of my statement: "we'd prefer not to have other people running into us without warning us first."

Practicing defense is fine. However, ramming another robot during a practice match because that's your entire strategy with your "kitbot brick" when they are not expecting it and causing them damage, has made me very unhappy on a Thursday, and made for a long afternoon of repair. The whole point of the post was "ask first". There are two matches each practice round. We are always happy to let someone practice defense on us for one of the two, as long as we are expecting it. But don't pin us into a corner for both matches, we'd like to practice offense for one of them.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Do you really believe that the other robots are on the field just so you can bang on them? Do you really believe that you have some sort of "right" to pound on them just because you're on the field at the same time?

Is it the fault of "offensive" teams that you require a robot to play defense on and they don't?

I really hope if someone tells you ahead of a practice match that they'd prefer that you not play defense on them that you'd respect their wishes. Some teams are working out bugs in their scoring mechanisms and want a chance to practice with it. Of course it will be harder to score when being defended, but that doesn't mean that undefended practice time is not valuable.

The fact that your team requires another team to practice against is your problem, not theirs.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I can tell you at least from my position on the field as we were trying to come up with a defece against you in the Quarters at Davis, there was NO talk of trying to tip you guys (or 997). Defend, yes. Tip, no. Although I am not in the mind of the drivers, I feel confident that there was no intentional tipping. On a side note, I want to congradulate 100, 997, and 1458 for providing us, the crowd and everyone watching through webcast probably the best elims ever. and also congrats to you guys for the eventual win.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Yes, if it is legal bumper zone contact, with some restraint added in considering the situation, and it serves a strategic purpose - preventing opponents from scoring tubes. I agree with the previous posters - they don't call them practice MATCHES for nothing, and you are going to face an amplified version of such contact in the qualifying rounds, so whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

No. I fully blame the GDC...........KIDDING DAVE!!!! :ahh:

Defense is allowed per the rules. It will be played during practice matches per the rules.

Offensive robots require game pieces supplied by FIRST.

For defensive robots, our opponents are the game pieces we are permitted to manipulate per the rules.


I'd prefer a compromise - if they had a hobbled mechanism or looked rickety or "tippy", I'd probably leave them alone for the bulk of the session. But if it were a stronger team with no visible signs of robot problems, I'd prefer to test my skills against them. Of course, I'd allocate half the time to let anyone practice their offense unimpeded, but I'd expect the same courtesy coming back the other way, with the understanding the defense wouldn't get too rough (unless you asked for it intentionally - I love offensive teams with that particular mentality :)) .

The fact that teams don't put bumpers on their robots during practice MATCHES is their problem, not the defenders'!

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

First off, please do not assume that playing defense requires 'Banging' and 'Pounding'. Our drivers practice pushing and rotating the opponent. And for that we do need practice.

Is it the fault of the 'Defensive' team that you need to use the rack that we are practicing to defend? ;)

We do talk to all the teams out on the field, before the practice matches (Yes, matches). We tell them exactly what we want to do. Teams that have specific bugs that need to be worked out are left alone if they ask (this is standard policy). However, I believe that our practice time is just as valuble as the other teams. Would you accept not scoring ringers because we wanted to practice driving defense without interference on your side of the field? I doubt it. So again, I ask, why do you believe that 'offensive' teams have the right to tell defensive teams that they cannot practice the strategy they want to play?


The fact that yours needs the rack that we are practicing our defense of is yours ;)

The biggest thing is to talk to the other teams during practice matches, and remember that the other team (offensive or defensive) needs to practice their part too. Do not 'exclude' some team just because their strategy interferes with yours.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

It'd be great to see a bunch of teams start refusing to attend practice rounds when a team on the opposing alliance insists on playing "defense" on them the whole time. After all, if you're not going to let them score anyway why should they bother?

I know I'm not going to get you to change your opinion but you won't change mine either. I personally feel that spending a whole practice round (look at the agendas - they're never called "practice matches") harassing another team who is just trying to get their robot functions down is uncool. But whatever, each is entitled to their opinions.

Maybe someday a traditionally "offensive" team with a strong drivetrain will simply pin you in a corner for the whole practice round and then you can decide how well you like that.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Well, here's a question for Thursday practice rounds.
Our refs at LSR were out on the field but they were dressed in tee shirts, not the official black and stripe shirts.

How tough can it get as far as defense practicing on Thursday?

We (418) typically like to use Thursday to tweak and prepare.
There were several robots (rookie teams come to mind) that needed that day to get themselves ready for the matches and don't need the hassle unless asked.

Jane

Edit: maybe if there is space available at the different venues, a practice area could be set up for defensive practice and you could sign up for it. Or have a couple of sessions that are open to practice and to defensive practice and teams are aware of it...I agree that practice day on Thursday doesn't need a bunch of rules developed for it, it should be a day of preparation as each team needs to prepare.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

That would be against the pinning rules. Bad form! Bad form! :D

But heck, I'd love to see it attempted, if the rules are followed - it would provide valuable intel about that robot's drivetrain capabilities compared to the defender's. I like fewer surprises come qualifying time. And I'm sure the bored to death scouters sitting in the stands on Thursday would enjoy the friendly melee and the additional information it provided.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I witnessed many "defensive" robots practice on other robots. Many times I saw hits that in normal match play would have resulted in yellow and red cards. How many teams out there have had there robots damaged by agressive defensive robots during the practice matches? We did, missed about three practice matches. Who out there really wants that to happen to anyone's robot during practice matches, or any matches as far as that goes? We hold no grudge and the other team felt really bad.

If you are planing on practicing defense, talk to the other alliance, do not talk at them. If they do not wish to have defense played on them, please leave them alone, there was an earlier post where it seemed like the defensve robot thought that they were entitled to practice defense on another robot just because they are there as long as they "TELL" them that is what they were going to do. Sorry, I don't think you have a right to tell them that you plan on pushing them around while they may have other things they need to work on. Perhaps you could practice defense on a robot in your own alliance. During most matches I am certain that you could with permission find a robot to practice defense on. We are a hybrid and we practiced moderate defense and offense during the PRACTICE matches. If you were to ask us if you could play moderate defense on us we would have most certainly said yes. We wanted to see how well our robot could score with defense being played on us and appreciated teams that played moderate defense on us. We even had a robot from the opposing alliance climb our ramps in practice. The key is communication and keep the defensive practice civil. It really comes down to GP and respect. Many times during practice matches I could not believe how tough the defense became and thinking, Gees, this is only practice. We have the opportinity to keep the practice matches civil. The last thing we need are another bunch of rules for practice matches.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...Practice+match
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...fense+practice

A defensive bot can practice in a number of ways. Defend alliance partners, defend other defensive bots, practice interference, practice willing offensive bots, but never, ever defend a bot that doesn't wish to be defended. Nor should any bot ever commit a penalty during a practice match. Even if it would just be a 10 point penalty during a qualification match, it shouldn't happen ever during practice. Rough play is intolerable.
I remember once in 2006 we went to a practice match without our bumpers.... and left the field with a 1" dent in our frame. Welded 1"x1"x1/8" aluminum channel. In another, our control box suffered it's first ever failure due to rough play (something that hadn't happened in the 7 previous competitions [including off-seasons] it had competed in, and hasn't happened since). That's frankly, not acceptable.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Don't the referees need practice on Thursday, too? Shouldn't they be overseeing the "simulated" matches which follow the same timing as regular ones and calling them per the rules? Shouldn't they be watching out for and pointing out examples of over the top hitting or visibly counting out pinning counts? Ya really shouldn't be leaving the determination of what is and isn't appropriate defense up to the teams on Thursday, especially when some teams are attending their first events and haven't experienced anything like it before.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

There are reasons for practice day to have TWO matches. I'll leave you alone in the first match if we can knock bumpers in the second. Last year my team tried something different with the sides of our bot and in the first practice match we were peeled like an orange. We spent the rest of the day improvising a new outer skin. I'm GLAD it happened on Thursday and not Friday because we didn't miss a single Qualifing match.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

FIRST does not require Refs to be there until Friday, our refs come out early to get a bit of an understanding about how the game is played and see if there is anything they need to be aware of. As far as another practice area, that is really not a valid option for most regionals because that would require not only more space but more volunteers to man that field. This would be an issue for most regionals since a majority of the volunteers that are not in key positions are students and would not be able to handle the field. As a volunteer who has never been attached to a team I can say that it seems to me that defense would be just as important as offense since robots are built to do different things. Practice matches are really no different than seeding matches except that they do not count in your seeding points. I know that at Lone Star teams practice both because they will use both in the seeding matches.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I watched Team 48 practice and although it was definitely defense until the end of the round, I saw nothing I would call rough play. They have a right to practice their game during practice rounds, period.

On the other hand, it sounds like some sort of Refereeing to stop high speed ramming and tipping of robots during practice rounds is called for. In past years we have been the recipients of some nasty uncalled for high speed impacts in practice, these would be penalized in a regular round, they should not be tolerated during practice.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

The key is communication. Communicate what you want to do in the practice round to your partners and opponents; make sure everyone is ok with it. If their robot/drivers are not ready for contact, respect their wishes. They should welcome the contact when they are ready for it (maybe next match), if not it is their loss. The Rack and the field are communal property to be shared (if you want to hit the Rack you don't need anyone's permission), but the robots on the field are property of their respective teams. Noone wants to spend hours repairing their robot after practice round damage and missing more practice time. Thursday is about making progress and getting ready for competition, not suffering unnecessary setbacks.

If inter-team communication fails FIRST is going to start making rules because this is an issue every year. Maybe something equivalent to a redshirt on a QB in football practice. Heck we could make it a White Flag, that would be humorous. Hit the bot with the white flag get temporarily disabled. I don't want it to come to something like that so just communicate and be respectfully out there.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

My mentor made the point that FRC is (loosely) based off of sports, although
FRC is lacking many of the things that mainstream sports do.

So, looking at the mainstream sports, like basketball, the players are protected when they are on the field. It is against the rules to make contact with another player while they are shooting a basket.

Or football, for instance. There are many different rules set up to protect players, like face masking, roughing the kicker, unnecessary roughness, etc. The list goes on (well, except maybe ultimate fighting or rugby... those don't seem to have many rules).

Really, compared to last year, this year has a few more rules protecting robots, and FIRST seems to get better and better about rules protecting robots. From '05 to '06, wedges were disallowed, and bumpers were introduced. From '06 to present, yellow cards were introduced, and ramming was more clearly defined.

Whatever FIRST lacks in rules protecting robots really should be made up for by GP. Yes, its allowed to play defense on a robot, but how much is too much? What I would like to see happen are teams recognizing that the best defense is a good offense, and begin designing their robots accordingly.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

In Colorado the refs were fairly judicious with the penalties. The most common penalty was teams forgetting to get out of the end zone during the endgame. No yellow flags, but since most of the matches were fairly low scoring those penalties tended to sway the game. Even though at our regional the game was mostly defensive, not many of the teams had enough mass on their robots to really do a lot of damage to each other. The most damage I saw was from teams going up ramps or lifts and falling off.

There was a fun bit where we were partnered with team 1375 who had a ramp, and team 1977 who's arm had bent/broken early in the day, they were playing exclusively defensive with their omni drive :D, surprisingly they did quite well at getting in between opponents and the rack. Since they had omni, they couldn't climb the ramp, but we really needed that 30 point bonus so our team agreed to try and push them up.

Last 20 seconds of the game, 1375 deploys the ramp, they line up at the base, we come up behind, we tap them, the crowd cheers, they go, up, they go up... and then we push them a little too hard to the side and they slam almost upside down, straight into the carpet, their omni wheels in the air spinning wildly.

We felt really bad about it, but they thought it was really funny, joked about perhaps we might have bent their arm back the other way so it might start working again. All ends well I guess :)

The big robot on the regional winning alliance (1583), which was basically just a box frame with a GIANT extra tall/long diamond plate ramp, they did very well at defensive, probibly the most aggressive team on the field, many robots got quite a beating from them, but it was all good because they were so gracious about helping them repair the damage afterwards.

Colorado Regional is always a treat.

-Chris

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I'm inclined to think, based upon its widespread success this year, that the best offense is a good defense and a solid 2 @ 12 ramp design for the end game. But that's a debate for another thread.

If FIRST wants to eliminate defense, they can write it into the rules, but they haven't the past 2 years. They did so in 2005, and all that year really boiled down to was was the offensive powerhouses gaining more ranking points as the lesser-equipped offensive teams tried their best to keep up with the scoring but ultimately failed. Not having a viable defensive option, they were left with little else to do. I applaud FIRST and the GDC for providing multiple scoring options this year (tubes and ramp/lifts), as well as the presence of defense, which present different levels of design challenge that are accessible to any team.

Defense levels the playing field and makes a game more accessible and exciting for E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E. That includes the practice day. I thank the GDC for recognizing its importance this season and hope they continue to permit its existence in future game designs. I also implore the refs to maintain a healthy balance between offensive and defensive gameplay on the field, including on Thursday, so that all teams can enjoy employing their robot strategies without fear of damage or abuse.