Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Does anyone else feel that FIRST took the yellow and red card rule from IRI because of the teams liking it at this off season event? I believe that FIRST did for a change hear what people wanted and tried to make it happen. Although I feel that FIRST has done a poor job dupicating what IRI uses these warnings for. Does anyone else feel similar?

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I did not see any at GLR. There were some warnings by the head ref though.
Did anyone get one there?

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

To be honest, I like the rough play. It encourages everyone to build robust designs, and lets face it, for people who are not involved with FIRST, the matches look much more interesting than if no contact were allowed. I know many might disagree but whenever I tell people about the competitions, the first question is always, "So is it like battle bots do you get to fight other robots?" I always have to say no but I do throw in that there is a lot of pushing. I firmly believe that it is this pushing and aggressive play that interests many people not involved with FIRST. I also believe that robots should not try to maliciously damage other robots as this is not in the spirit of FIRST but defense and pushing I feel is a crucial element of the game. As well if you can build a robot that can still place ringers efficiently even while being pushed, the accomplishment is even greater.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I believe the game has gotten a bit rougher. I also believe that FIRST wants this since the game changes seem to be inferring that this is what they want.

More defense has been played since they went to 3 on 3. Gone is the days where the field is open. Tight checking and scoring under duress are now the names of the game. The addition of the bumpers seems to reinforce that strong interaction between the robots is to be expected, thus the lack of yellow cards and penalties.

I believe that rougher games make for better viewing. More contact between the robots means more excitement, and that in turn appeals to the masses (a target of FIRST). All in all I believe it is good for FIRST to allow (within reason) more and harder contact between the robots.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Another thing about this years game is the Rack makes it really difficult to defend on the other side. Our drivers were attempting to defend on team 73, and after successfully keeping them from the rack, 73 backed into the endzone... as we followed them, our driver couldnt tell they had stopped and rammed into them, backed up to stay in their way and in the process of driving forward hit them again... we might have gotten a yellow card, but either the refs didnt see or they realized our driver couldnt see. I know the hits werent intentional, and from my seat didnt look that hard, but we realize now that we have to be really careful about defense on the other side of the rack.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Team 1450 received a yellow card early on, and then won the Finger Lakes Regional. I'm sure the refs are reluctant to give them. (Remember that video that introduced the concept, where they said that they hope to not have to use any?)

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

we got penalized for tipping a robot over i think. i dont know if that counts for what you are looking for.

and in about a quarter of our matches the judges told us that we were really close to getting a yellow flag.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I like the rough play, actually.

It definately makes it more intense, and when a team scores there's a much bigger wave of energy. You're getting pummeled by some team and you still manage to score? That must feel so good!

The bumpers make things so much better. You can drive it like you stole it without worrying too much about damaging either of the robots. Even without bumpers, there's nothing more satisfying than the sound of two 120 pound robots clashing face to face, metal to metal in the middle of the field.

Stack Attack was amazing :D

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

i think people are expecting the yellow card system to be a punishment as common as a point penalty. i think they're wrong. the yellow card is probably a last resort thing to let the teams know that the refs are still in total control and if they feel that the teams re getting out fo hand they'll pull one and that keeps a check in teh back of the drivers minds that hopefully keeps them from being as aggresive for future rounds. as far as unfair calls. has anyone ever watched a football game? how many late hits, and illegal hits do you see that arent called? and also how many calls do you see where you want to scream cuz it was a bad call. it's all part of the game and it's something players and coaches have gotten used to. so my advice is if you get a yellow card dont complain, even if you think you dont deserve it, and if you think teh other team deserved one but they didnt get it, dont complain that it's unfair cuz maybe the ref just missed it. there is a lot to watch in one match. it's ok to clarify with the head ref after a match, i personally do that all the time, it actually puts your minds at ease most of the time, you should try it. but don't complain that they made bad calls, it's hard to call a perfect game dont make there job harder. if you want kindly ask them what they thought of the play, but don't get mad because the call didnt go your way. that's all part of life.

just my .02...

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

At Arizona I know there were at least 2 yellow cards issued, and I think there may have been a 3rd as well. One of them was for excessive ramming (including hitting robots hard enough that their ramps would deploy), and another was for hitting the opponent with an arm while playing defense on them.

I saw lots of hitting and whatnot, but really nothing worse than last year. There are far less tipped robots this year, surprising since there are so many ramps and lifts of different qualities as well as arm bots this year.

What really surprises me though is the lack of bumpers on robots. I think less than half of all teams at AZ had bumpers, and some who did didn't always use them (39 comes to mind). If you're expecting rough play, get the bumpers!

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I think the card system was used very well at VCU.
414 received a yellow card in the qualifications for "excessive violent actions" (or something like that)
122 received a yellow card in the qualifications for having their ramps deploy outside of the home zone for the 3rd match in a row
843 received a red card in the finals for intentional tipping of 1610 (albeit, the video suggests it wasn't intentional, intention is almost impossible to interpret, especially in the heat of the moment)
I would have liked to see a couple more penalties (not cards) for ramming, but it wasn't a huge deal. Us and another team literally exchanged paint (or stickers to be more accurate) on more than one occasion after they hit us. Regardless though, the officiating at VCU was consistent and well coordinated.
The card system should not be as liberally used as some seem to wish it to be. Cards are, and should be, a last resort to stop particularly egregious and/or repeated offenses. I think the system was modeled after the IRI card system (which has worked outstandingly), and with some minor refinements will work just as well as it.
Also, doesn't it seem like we get this thread pretty much every year? (with the exception of 2005, when we got a too many penalties one)

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

As a newcoming looking forward to our first field experience in Hartford, I have to say I love the high-speed, hard-pushing, near-tipping, pre-maturing ramping, hanging up in the rack, scoring over defense, bodyguarding, bad/good driving, and general chaos/suspense that this game is turning into. If your contact is in the bumper-zone, and you are not ramming at full-speed, I say let them play! [I may regret these words in a few days:) ]

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I don't think I saw any penalties for rough play. I saw ONE yellow flag, and that was on practice day. But I was a human player, so I only really saw matches my team was in, and a few that I had time to watch.

I did see some self-inflicted rough play though :3

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

414's card was appropriate. They rammed and slammed a whole match. 122's yellow was a hard sell for some but understandable with the ramps.
843's Red was appropriate. (you hit something holding something high in the air that's shaking, tipping ensues 90% of the time easy.)

The card system was not overused at VCU. A few instances were worthy of penalties but not quite card offenses. There is some room between penalties and cards for some form of penalties for those ram and slammers.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I think whatever you decide every team should play by you know, if one team can play rough then all the other teams should equally be allowed to be as rough because we usually play fair and don't do anything too rough you know and once we had this robot that pinned us against the wall and kept backing up a little when we pushed so we could get away but they kept ramming us against the wall.

It wasn't fair because we couldn't do anything and because of that we couldn't finnish scoring or get to the other side of the field for bonus points so we ended up losing. Whatever happens all teams should have a fair chance to be rough you know what I mean? We didn't want to play rough against that team because it was against the rules to do what they did to us so we didn't want to risk being disqualified or anything.