Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I totally agree with this I have had this happen where we were the pushing robot and I didn't realize how high the cg was on the other robot and they fell over. My contact would not have caused it if it was just bumping with a lower cg robot. The drivers should not be held responsible in occasions like these because they don't know how high the cg is on the other robot.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Both points are true. However, if you see your opponent teetering, you would be well-advised to back off, even from bumper-zone contact. If you continue to bump against a wobbly robot, your bot could be the reason that it finally went over, and then you could be charged with tipping. It will all depend on what the ref saw each of your bots doing.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

We were disabled because our arm was working randomly, much like at Boilermaker. We were trying to bring the arm back in and not hit other robots with it. A ref warned us, and as she was yelling at us and we were standing still, another robot ran into our arm. She then disabled us for that robot running into us. After we were disabled, we were dragged into the other alliance's home zone.

About tipping, teams should realize that there are consequences with certain designs of bots. If a team were to tip us over, I would not be mad, as it was our fault as much as theirs. If they were to hit us in the bumper zone legally, and we started wobbling, but then we didn't back up away from them and we tipped over, it would be our fault. If a team though were to hit out of the bumper zone, such as hit up high and tip over a robot, then that's a different story.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I second that notion

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

The first year of Autonomous and frankly I think one of the best. Just about everyone could make some kind of autonomous play and it was the one of the coolest parts of the matches.

On to Yellow cards and Penalties....

In SF2.2 at the Bayou regional, 118 got a 10 pt penalty for ramming. It was so minor, it took us a while to figure why they got the penalty and when it occured. In the next match SF2.3 our alliance's robot was pushed of the ramp and then as they sat halfed tipped over, they were pushed by the opposing alliance again until tipped completely over and off the ramp - no call, no flag, no penalty :( It's tough to be a ref and I'm glad I don't do it - but it sounds like the participants/customers of FIRST would like to see more consistency. I think it's wrong to expect perfect refs, and I hope we are gracious enough to move on no matter what the call. But...

So what kind of solutions could be in place for next year? I was thinking maybe FIRST could offer refs a training DVD where certain calls are explained and example videos shown. The refs that volunteer could have that the week before they ref and then when they hold their Referree meeting on Thursday before a competition, they have more background to draw on and the meeting will have more meaning and relevance. I know last year - they had volunteers show up on Friday at the Davis-Sacramento Regional and ended up have them ref with very little background training. Granted they weren't the head ref, but still. Oh heck, FIRST could put a E-Mail Blast out to teams to make a Referree Training Video and could pick the best one.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Yellow carding, bumper zones, and contact rules, obviously can lead to a debate, as is evident, about whether or not FIRST is trying to prevent defensive play.

Points have been made about bumpers being a sign that FIRST does, in fact, want to see some good defensive play. I believe that this is definitely the case.

Sometimes, many of us forget about our rookie experience, or perhaps that one season where we didn't have a technical mentor to help us out, and so the machine was designed and built with nothing but hand tools. This can often lead to a machine that is unreliable at best.

FIRST knows that the challenge that they give us is HARD, and want to make it possible for all teams to participate, regardless of the resources available to them. Some teams come with modular drive systems that can be snapped out and snapped back into place, while others need to borrow a wrench to tighten their kitbot frame. Some teams can design and build robust, elaborate devices to elegantly accomplish the goals in the challenge, while for others, the challenge is getting a machine that can move, and do it in less than 120 lbs.

FIRST's decision to create and enforce bumper and collision rules allow less-advantaged teams to be both protected and give them the chance to try to be effective, while at the same time protecting the more advantaged teams from teams whose only recourse is to drive around as a box-on-wheels. I'm sure that FIRST knows that rules like these are difficult to enforce, and that their interpretation will be inconsistent. However, they are trying to send a message to teams that even if their arm breaks, or they couldn't build one due to time or financial limitations, their robots are legitimate and worthy of competing on the field. And by legitimizing defense, they are also trying to set boundaries on what is appropriate and what is not.

As per the "carding" system, while I believe that the warnings and disqualifications are appropriate, I am personally not a fan of the yellow flag stigma that allegedly sticks with the team for the remainder of the competition (I say allegedly because I didn't witness it at NJ or UTC). My major grief with it is that this could cause an unnecessary "branding" to a team that may have been involved in a non-deliberate situation, or perhaps a defensive move that may not have MEANT to have been catastrophic, but due to circumstances on the field or with the opposing machine, was.

Understandably, this is quite possibly why refs have actually been hesitant to hand them out, except under extreme circumstances.

Sorry, my post is all over the place -- it's been a LONG week (surprisingly one without a regional for me).

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

After reading throught this thread, it seems only one team, 843, had offically been given a red card, and 1683, (unofficially?) when two robots were inadvertantly tipped by them in a match.
We, team 418, were recently given a red card at Lone Star because it appeared that we were trying to tip another robot. What actually happend was that they managed to get their front end up on top of one end of our robot and our attempt to free ourself was mis-intrepreted.
The scuffle ended with a red card and our main battery unplugged by their robot, pulled off by the other team in their sucessful attempt to get off of our robot and their robot completley unharmed.
So, two or three red cards so far, anyone know of any others?

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

LSR semi 2 was rough play. Period. Four rounds with lots of tough defense in each. Watch the rounds and you'll see what I mean.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I have to say im surprised how rough it got. We had defense played on us in peachtree, but in palmetto it was absolutely brutal. I think some teams can back me up on this (1251, 343, etc) but overall I was really surprised the beating we took at this regional. I'm not really looking forward to the Championship if the beating is going to be anything similar.

I mean it was so bad in practice matches thursday, not a game, not a game, we're talking about practice here we were triple, I'll repeat TRIPLE, defended when it was 2 vs 3.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I was suprised at how few yellow cards were actually given,
the only reason one was given at Davis was after a robot tipped 2 on our alliance. Then the next match they started doing it again and then they were given the yellow card. NOT when they tipped two of our robots... it's not like we are prone to tipping, neiter of the teams that were on their side had EVER been their before.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Not knowing how appropriate or excessive the defense was, keep in mind that defensive teams have a right to practice their methods on Thursday as much as the scoring teams do. One would hope opposing alliances would cooperate to let all teams involved practice what they want to practice during Thursday matches without causing any robot damage.

48 and 1114's spirited practice match on Thursday at Greater Toronto is one example. We defend them "vigorously" in the first session, then we back off in the second session, let them score, then let them deploy their ramp in our home zone, and finally climb them so they can check on a new ramp feature. This is how the Thursday matches should be - have all six teams strategize together for maximum mutual benefit.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

Yesterday at the Philly Regional we saw a RED CARD! And it came without a yellow card preceding it.

Our robot had tipped, and another team gave it a bit of a (hard) shove. Was it intentional? I really don't think so. Needless to say, we were shocked at the result.

Luckily the red card didn't change the result of the match (which was in the semi-finals), but if it had (or if it had eliminated the alliance from the competition) I would have been really upset.

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I said this last year, and I'll say it again this year. During practice, if teams defend you, thank them. For they are showing you exactly what you will see on the field during the real game.

Imagine if they didn't defend you during practice and you thought you could put 6 ringers on and once you got to the real game and they did defend and you found out that under real defense you could only score 1. Wouldn't you want to know this BEFORE the real matches started?

JMHO

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I knew how many I could put on with defense when we won peachtree two weeks earlier.....to defend my team heavily for two straight sessions and then one of the teams backing off only to make room so they can ramp up to ram us at high speed on thursday when they can't be penalized for it.....i won't thank them for it....to come across the field around the rack to ram us at high speed.....i won't thank them.....i don't appreciate other teams doing things against the rules on thursday because they can....

Re: Rough Play in Rack N Roll
 

I noticed that the refs were even less likely to issue penalties during the tournament. During our last semi-final match one of our opponents was ramming us so hard their robot wound up on top of ours and the ref didn't penalize them.