Chief Delphi - Please stop complaining...

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Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)

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- - Please stop complaining... (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55556)

MariaChristineK

11-03-2007 19:44

Re: Please stop complaining...

We are only "complaining" because we love FRC so much! We want to make it the best we can and in doing so we must fix anything that we feel detracts from the value of FRC. I am sure that the majority of people you believe to be complaining are simply frustrated with the situation and are offering constructive criticism. However, I can understand that we are sometimes irksome.

Frenchie

11-03-2007 19:47

Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:

Originally Posted by burkechrs1 (Post 594800)

I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST. It seems like everyone is finding "something" wrong with the game this year and complaining. Everywhere you look there's "This rule sucks" or "The randomizer sucks" or "There were no yellow cards called when they hit us..." To me it just sounds like a lot of sore losing. FIRST isn't about winning. And francly it really shouldn't matter if you played the same team 5 times in one regional. Yea, it could probabaly get annoying, but flaming FIRST on CD about how they have "made mistakes" is no way to solve problems. It's basically like going and talking smack about someone when they aren't there to defend themselves. I know everyone here doesn't intend to flame FIRST but that's what it's turning into. After every regional there is always a thread of what needs to be changed or what went wrong. Seriously, we should stop. It's to late to change rules now, so there is no use in complaining about them. IMO, if you lost a round because of a rule you dont agree on, then change your strategy and win the next match anyway. That's how you prove you have a good robot/team, not by complaining and trying to put someone to blame. So from now on I say we all stop flaming and pointing out what went wrong or what bad calls were made and start pointing out how much fun we all have at the regionals and what FIRST actually has done for us. Because it isn't that easy to put on a flawless event with no issues and I think FIRST deserves waaaaay more credit than we give them.

Just my .02.

It unfortunately isn't too late to change the rules... In fact, rules change all the time, look at GLR's "no defense on a ringer-less robot" rule.

Francois.

Dave Flowerday

11-03-2007 20:24

Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:

Originally Posted by burkechrs1 (Post 594800)

I've never seen so much complaining about a FIRST game in the 4 years I've been a part of FIRST.

I've been involved in FIRST since 1995 and I can assure you that this is basically normal. Way back then CD didn't exist and there wasn't as much discussion between teams, but critiquing and yes, even complaining have been a normal part of this organization for a LONG time. There may be a little more some years than others, but my take on it is simply that it means there are a lot of passionate people in this program who care deeply about it and want to see it done right. Also, I've found that most people who are engineering-minded also tend to be perfectionists, so it does not surprise me that they get bothered when things aren't "right".

Quote:

Originally Posted by burkechrs1 (Post 594800)

FIRST isn't about winning.

Actually, it is. That may not be the goal of the program but the competition is a means to an end. If the competitiveness did not exist this program would not be what it is. If we eliminate the competition aspect from this program then all you're left with is a big science fair, and I think you'll find that you'd lose the interest of many mentors and students. The competition is what makes this program fun and makes it effective.

Furthermore, "post-mortem analysis" is a very common practice in engineering - it is the process of identifying things that worked on a project and things that didn't. I see a lot of the discussion here in the same light.

Finally, if people are bothered by these discussions, simply don't read them! Either don't click on the threads, or if it really bothers you that much then just stop visiting CD. You're not likely to change most people's behavior anyway.

dlavery

11-03-2007 20:36

Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenchie (Post 595167)

It unfortunately isn't too late to change the rules... In fact, rules change all the time, look at GLR's "no defense on a ringer-less robot" rule.

Francois.

That was not a rule change. That was a case of a particular Head Referee exceeding his authority.

-dave

meatmanek

11-03-2007 20:56

Re: Please stop complaining...

"A few of these CEOs said, 'Dean, what are you going to do that will make kids more passionate about science and engineering?' I said, 'Lets steal from the playbook of sports; lets create a sporting event!'"
-- Dean Kamen

Competition has always been a part of the game. You may try to argue that FIRST isn't about winning or losing, but because it's a competition, and it's designed that way, students and mentors and engineers will always be competitive. Part of being competitive is making sure you have a chance to win, which includes complaining when you think the rules aren't fair.

Jim E

11-03-2007 20:58

Re: Please stop complaining...

Hey!

Quit the griping. FIRST is about cooperation, not finger-pointing. FIRST has no control over a teams' performance when the schedules and pairings are posted, how could they?

I was surprised and delighted at UCF when PINK, 233, was plagued with problems all weekend , but was still selected in the seeeding round at UCF. Why? They are a consistent player and perform when under pressure. No Lie, Thery were seeded near last. I cannot tell you the number of teams dissapointed that PINK was a no-show in qualification matches. Fortunately Team 1523 were not paired with them, (but I would consider it an honor).

My point is, FIRST is not about winning, but about competing and learning something new. The best part of competing is how to do it under pressure. How well do you know you competition sometimes is more important than knowing your alliance strenghths.

Also, FIRST Volunteers are the just that. Next time you interact with one, Thank them for their service. Regardless of call, for or against you, remember, You may be one of them someday...:p

David Brinza

11-03-2007 21:08

Re: Please stop complaining...

You can call it complaining, criticism, or even just plain whining, but members of the FIRST community that have problems with how rules are written or interpreted, how poorly match schedules were arranged, or any other issue they may are providing feedback to the rest of the FIRST community. Sometimes the members that speak out in CD are saying the same thing that many others are thinking. Sometimes their perception of the issue is a bit misguided, but still they have the right to voice opinions. If they're opinions are way off-base, there are plenty of CD members who will try to set them straight.

I say that if a FIRST member believes that something is wrong, CD is the place to initiate discussion. If there's consensus among the CD community that something is broken in FIRST, there's a really good chance that it will get fixed. There are senior FIRST people scanning CD regularly. I think it's part of their "continuous improvement" process.

Lil' Lavery

12-03-2007 15:07

Re: Please stop complaining...

There is a difference between criticism and whining.
Constructive criticism in a necessity. Debate is healthy. Revealing new and potential problems is an absolute must. Whining and flaming are not.
An example would be the Banebots issue. A few teams originally posted the problems they experienced with them, revealing the issue to the members of CD (good). Teams, Mentors, Banebots, and FIRST then began analyzing the issue and determining whether it could be a serious issue (good). They then began working towards a solution (perfect). Some offered criticism and complaints about FIRST and Banebots letting this happen, but mainly withing bounds of sanity (alright). Other then continued to complain, even starting new threads, about issues that were already revealed, and offered no new productive solutions to the issue (bad), even after it was announced that not only was FIRST aware of the issue, but that they were working on a solution. There is no use beating a dead horse, so please don't bother.

David Brinza

12-03-2007 15:30

Re: Please stop complaining...

Right on the front page of Chief Delphi forums under the "Welcome to ChiefDelphi.com" heading are some important rules/guidelines for users of this forum. In particular, there's an imbedded link to the following announcement that new and/ or infrequent users really must read:

Read these threads first!

After you've read these, you'll understand why whining is not GP. If you have a problem/issue/question, read the game manual first, then search the CD forums. If there's nothing already posted, then create a new post. But remember, you are associating your team with your post. It's very easy to gripe about a problem, it's harder (but much better) to offer a solution...

cziggy343

12-03-2007 17:04

Re: Please stop complaining...

Quote:

Originally Posted by technoL (Post 594992)

What you consider to be complaining over nothing or something that doesn't matter may be a very important issue to other teams. It is vital to look at the situation from all points of view before judging or at least publicly expressing your opinion.

i meant like a rule that u dont like b/c your team lost because of it. that's whining over something just because the world may have been a little unfair to u (or your team).

Rich Ross

12-03-2007 19:00

Re: Please stop complaining...

i cant decide which is worse: the fact that this thread exists or the fact that this many people (including myself) are posting in it.

99% of the "complaints" i have seen on CD recently are NECESSARY! All of the comments about a bad randomizer are right. Maybe you don't mind playing the same team over and over, but i didn't at GLR (note we only played against the same team about 3 or 4 times, but still quite frustrating. Maybe you didn't experience the atrocity of refs stretching their authority, but i did. I think that most of these complaints are justified. If we don't openly express our concerns with the FIRST program, they will not be able to fix those problems (and it doesn't seem that the randomizer problem was fixed even though we told FIRST about it extensively here on CD.

Complaints are an integral part of improvement, and being a team who was put in a poor situation by the inspectors made me realize that the complaining is just fine. If you don't want to see it, then skip those threads. Nobody is making you read every thread on CD (at least not that i know of)

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