Team Update 17
 

Yay!

Team Update 17

Time to pack the drill presses..

-Nate

Team Update #17
 

Attention Everyone. Team Update #17 is avaialbe at the usfirst.org web site. It speaks volumes for FIRST:yikes:

Re: Team Update #17
 

I am liking this quite a bit. However, I wonder if they will allow us to unload all of our machines and set them off in some corner of teh pits so we can help other teams becuase there is no way we can comfortably fit all those tools in our pit.
But I think that this has turned out pretty good.

Re: Team Update 17
 

This may be the best team update thus far. Not so much because of what it contains (although I love it, don't get me wrong), but because the GDC has spelled everything out clearly so we get the intent of the rules.

+5 awesome points for them!

Re: Team Update 17
 

Nice clarification on the issue of tubes scored on the bottom row also. Definitely a helpful update :)

Re: Team Update #17
 

here's a link folks

http://www2.usfirst.org/2007comp/Upd...pdate%2017.pdf

:)

Re: Team Update 17
 

wow hats off to first for getting this done asap. I think this shows that first is willing to fix the problems. This is a major leap for first in responding to problems durning the season. Thank you for listening to us here on cd and takening action right away.


team 25

shaun

Re: Team Update 17
 

Everything I wrote to to FIRST has been addressed over there. I am glad they pay so much attention - really makes me happy.

Re: Team Update 17
 

I merged two threads into one, so please excuse the repeats.

Thanks.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Update 17 is my favorite update so far, I think the bottom rack scoring clarification is great. Lets hope the Match Making Algorithm is good enough that they won't have to draw it out of a hat.

Re: Team Update 17
 

im glad that FIRST did this :)

Re: Team Update 17
 

it is nice that FIRST has amended,clarified, andexplained the rules about moblie machine shops and drill presses and other power tools in the pits.

Re: Team Update 17
 

We can use electrical filtering!!!

Awesome Awesome Awesome.

A++

Thank you very much, FIRST.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Using Tom's great post as an example, maybe some of the thank yous could be addressed to FIRST directly. I'll just betcha they would appreciate it.
Just a thought -
Jane

Re: Team Update 17
 

Maybe we should send out a few thank yous to the experienced FIRST'ers who united & helped FIRST see that there was a problem.

I'll start, Thanks Paul.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Paul will be happy about this ;)

Re: Team Update 17
 

Thank you FIRST for spelling it all out.
Thank you those who expressed the now solved problems to FIRST

Re: Team Update 17
 

I'm glad they clarified/modified the ruling on bottom scoring. In a match that we had 4 in a row on the bottom, we lost because they said since one of the ringers were touching a ringer laying on the floor, it didn't count. It happened to be a keeper that just missed during autonomous.
We actually spent time during matches moving keepers, ringers away from the rack to ensure it was scored.
Now it doesn't matter!

Yay!!

:D

Re: Team Update 17
 

I hate to be the pessimist, and feel free to send me angry PM's about this not being GP, but ill say it: Actions speak louder than words.

I was told by update 16 that the algorithm was being fixed. Not fixed enough. 1504 played against a certain opponent 3 or so times. Not exactly good.

Inspection problems also occurred and those have not been addressed. They weren't a huge problem, but i'd like to see that fixed.

And thanks to everyone who helped to establish the consistency of refs. If it works.

Im hopeful, but im taking update 17 with a grain of salt.

Re: Team Update 17
 

This is the best update I have ever seen, but how is FIRST going to guarantee that the rules changes by the head ref isn't going to happen again. This isn't the first time it has happened and it was brought to FIRST's attention the last time. I don't want any team to go through this again, even though it helped us, I am sick over it.

Re: Team Update 17
 

It's not guaranteed really, but I do hope and think FIRST has made some arrangements to specially communicate with referee's before regionals. It really is terrible to go through unfair calls. I am glad FIRST is humble enough to admit and show gracious professionalism is a two-way street.

Re: Team Update 17
 

yes, i agree. FIRST did a nice job here. after week one, most of the bugs are usually sorted out.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Be careful what you wish. You could end up with an all rookie crew.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Thank you FIRST and the GDC! This really addresses a lot of the negative situations teams have been put in, and eliminates quite a few as well.


...:)Thank you :)...

Re: Team Update 17
 

Thank you, FIRST. Thank you!

We're all human, and we all make mistakes. The mark of greatness is not in one's ability to never make mistakes, but to recognize and rectify them as efficiently as possible. This is definitely an update that would make my grandmother proud.

On the whole, this has been a hard year on FIRST, with so many issues arising and everything. Sometimes it seems that people forget why they became involved in the program, and why they stay. People become so worked up in the details they fail to see the big picture. I was not immune to this, as I lost quite a bit of sleep during the build season due to the Banebots. But I'm still here today, and I can't wait to compete at UTC this week.

At this point in the season, people need to realize what is past is past. Things can't be changed now, so holding grudges over these issues will solve nothing. This Team Update clearly signifies that FIRST has realized how deep these issues go this year, and will work as hard as they possibly can to solve this problems. If anything, see this Team Update as the sight of a land bird by a sailing crew lost at sea. Things will get much better; very soon too.

Don't let your experiences from this build season become your last. If this is your rookie year, this is not a typical year. Things will get much better next year. If you are a returning veteran, don't jump ship because of a little stormy weather; c'mon, if you can design and build a robot from scratch in six weeks, then weathering out these issues should be a piece of cake.

We've already seen FIRST solve, or begin working extensively on, many of these issues. I expect by the time the Championships comes to pass, we will all have a much higher respect for FIRST and what they can accomplish. I know I most likely will, as it began today with this Team Update. ;)

Re: Team Update 17
 

As I said in a previous post, FIRST is lisetening to our concerns and comments. The algorithm wasn't perfect for week 2, but it was better, and this update says that week 3 should be even better. Now there are more guidelines about the machine shops and they are addressing the issues with rule changes at events. While this entire situation is not ideal, it is better than nothing happening at all and I commend FIRST for their efforts.

Re: Team Update 17
 

I don't care who I end up with. How would you like to be a team that didn't have much money or experience, so your team designed a great defensive robot? Then you got to the only event you could afford to go to and the rules are changed so that unless you had a tube in your possession you couldn't play defense any more. You go from a team that could have made it to the finals or a team that would have done well in eliminations to a team that no one would pick because all they were allowed to do was drive around. All that time and money was wasted for that one event. Disgusting.

FIRST designs the game so that everyone can be competitive no mater how good your robot is. This year you could be ramp bot, tube bot, defensive bot, or hybrid. Then a ref changes the rules and you no longer fit in 2 of the 3 main categories. To everyone watching you look like a lousy team, after all that hard work you know you put in. You know how good you could have been, but all you can do is drive around. This is not at all what FIRST is about, and this isn't the first time this has happened.

FIRST does a great job, better then any company I have worked for. I hope they will put more checks and balances in place so that it can't happen again.

Jack, I am not attacking you, just speaking my mind on this whole thing.

Re: Team Update 17
 

Kevin,

I can understand and feel your pain. 1213 is cash poor too. Last year the Martians fronted us $4k to make the payment deadline and Gail Alpert (469) scrounged up enough to get us entry into a second regional. This year the state grant saved us and maybe shamed the Birmingham district into enough for Buckeye. Each year I go thousands of dollars out-of-pocket, not so much from benevolence, but from pride. I’m not about to have our team work that hard only to go onto that field and stink up the place.

But all of that is really beside the point. The fact that our fundraising sucks does not give us license to berate those we perceive to exacerbate our predicament. Especially when that person is not at the root of the problem.

Consider the job handed to the head referee. He has to decipher volumes of rules that are far from perfect. Then has to on-the-spot train a crew selected by a volunteer coordinator a whos only criterion was that they signed up on VMS and were screened. Then he has to spoon feed the rules to the teams, many of whom, as we all know by the questions here and the Q&A, didn’t bother to read them. Finally, he gets to make decisions that are sure to please only half of the people. He gets to be the focal point in what could be described as mother of all things waiting to go wrong.

So what does he get for doing his best with a very flawed process? He gets bad mouthed by ones he is serving, and stabbed in the back by the architects of that malfunction.

I’ve served with refs from Atlanta to Vegas and most points in between. I’ve seen people who had no business being on the floor – no concept of the game – no grasp of the rules – no officiating experience – or an obvious conflict of interest. I’ve seen good referring criticized on this forum by people who had no idea what they were talking about. Worse yet, I’ve seen very weak refs have the gall to come here and criticize others. What I have not seen was FIRST take exception as they would when the vitriol was directed at them.

We sat there at the Champs in ’05 and ’06 and listened as some of the rules got officially mangled. The ruling at GLR came nowhere near that kind of incongruity; it came nowhere near having as much of an impact on my psyche.

If we think that just anyone can step in and officiate, then that’s what we’ll get – just anyone. Meanwhile, the ones with real experience and talent and intelligence and jurisprudence will have gotten sick to their stomachs. They are rare; we are railroading have railroaded one of them!

Re: Team Update 17
 

This is great news! Thanks, FIRST and the GDC for spelling it all out for us. Even though my team's not going to any other regional this season, and it doesn't directly affect me, I'm so glad to see that FIRST listened to all of us here, and has so quickly helped sort it out.

My confidence in FIRST as a whole has only gotten stronger. Keep on Inspirin'! :)

Re: Team Update 17
 

Thank you FIRST for clarifying many of the issues that have popped up so far.

With that, I still think FIRST needs to clearly explain what goals it has for the match pairing algorithm. They keep saying the algorithm will be "improved", but they neglect to say in what way it will be improved, and to me it looks like they are still set on putting teams into the A, B and C categories, which to me is totally bogus. Section 9.3.2 states that teams will be paired up randomly, and to categorize teams by number seems like FIRST is in a way going behind our backs and hoping people don't notice. I just want and reason for segregating teams by number, thats all.

Mike C.

Re: Team Update 17
 

I'm guessing it was a misguided* attempt at creating balanced alliances. Now that it's in the program, the program can be tweaked to change the matchups within that structure (ie, don't have to have a perpetual opponent), but they can't get rid of the pools without totally rewriting the program. Hopefully they will continue to tweak through the regionals, and a new non-pooled program will be available for Atlanta.

* - misguided, in that team number alone doesn't equate to team strength. At GLR, we could have had a "balanced" alliance of 67/469/1114 because of the pools. It didn't happen, although 469 and 1114 were together once.

Re: Team Update 17
 

This update makes my day :D .....we are leaving for detroit tommorow and now we can bring our drill press :)

Re: Team Update 17
 

Is it just me, or has there been a *lot* more drama this year than any other? Maybe I'm just more connected with the CD community, but I don't remember any of this last year or the year before...

FIRST has dealt with a lot of garbage this year so far. Yes, one could say they brought it upon themselves, but they seem to be working their butts off to fix the problems. So far, from what I've seen, every "stupid rule" hasn't lasted more than a week battery rule's an exception.... I think we owe FIRST a "thanks"! Really, they aren't blowing us off--they are listening. They deserve credit for that.

I don't know about you, but I'm happy.

Thanks FIRST!

JBot

Re: Team Update 17
 

There have always been referee problems. I have seen refs ignore rules in previous years. I've seen refs forget about the "outside bumper zone" contact and overlooked teams are surprised once Atlanta comes around that they're calling a penalty that they didn't see at their regional. I've seen referees say quote, "I don't give a <expletive> what the refs did last week. I'm the head ref this week." I've seen good referees blackballed because they spoke up to a head ref about a rule that was wrong. I've seen refs with team affiliations make obvious wrong calls to favor their team. I've been to regionals where the rules were interpreted differently each week. I've been to regionals where the rules were CHANGED by FIRST every week. I've seen poor written rules having to be interpreted by the refs week after week. I've also seen inspectors interpret rules completely wrong, and forcing teams to completely rewire their robots. Did any of these things ruin the regional for me? OF COURSE NOT! They just presented an additional challange.

The actions of inspectors and referees are always closely scrutenized, and this year isn't any exception. The difference this year, is the crackdown to make sure all referees are on the same page. Thank Aiden for that. This year more than any previous, there's a focus on not just making the right call, but making the same call as they are across the country at the same time.

Why are we making such a big deal about the problems this year? Maybe because it's because as FIRST has gotten so big, their reactions to regional problems has gotten equally gigantic. Just because one person cut his finger in Washington doesn't mean that people in New York don't know how to use a bandsaw. Just because 30 people complain about the reffing on CD doesn't mean that that ref is a bad person. He made a mistake, just like everyone else has done in past years. I have heard many views of Great Lakes, and most of them don't mention the head ref's interpretation of the rules. If it didn't affect the majority of the people I talked to, why is there such a huge reaction from FIRST? Everyone is fallable, GDC members and Head Refs included.

Referees in any other sport don't have the problem of reinterpreting the rules every year. The NHL had to do it once last year, and they had more problems with calls between referees than FIRST sees all year. Are FIRST refs more adaptive than NHL refs? You bet! They have to be! But when a referee in the NHL makes a bad call, does anyone know what happens? Not me, and probably nobody except the NHL and the referee himself. Maybe it's a good thing, because then nobody has the right to say, "I want that game against the Red Wings played over again because the Ref sucked!"

FIRST Refs have another advantage - (most of the time) it's not a monarchy, it's a democracy. At each regional, the refs get together and decide what actions were penalties and which weren't. Can anyone tell me for a fact that this didn't happen at GLR? And if not, aren't ALL the referees at fault? What about the GDC members at GLR? Did they agree with the referee's interpretation? (These are rhetorical questions. I really don't want to know the answers. Just think about them.)

<<sigh>> I guess the good thing that may come out of this is that it makes a wakeup call to the other referees that if they're not doing exactly as FIRST says, then they should get on board and call one game across the board. But in the meantime, maybe you shouldn't be persecuting individuals for their faults, and think about all of the rules they DIDN'T botch up. Did everyone at GLR have fun? Was everyone inspired? WERE THE RULES CALLED EQUALLY TO EVERY TEAM? If so, didn't the refs do their ultimate job? Maybe you should thank your referees for all the hard work they did at your regional, and stop nitpicking about not being able to use your team's strategy. After all, isn't FIRST not only about the robots? All of you students and mentors did a great job building a robot, and building a TEAM around the robot. Nobody's life should be ruined because of one (non)rule called at one regional last weekend. We're engineers! We should be able to adapt to stupid little things like that. If not, maybe you're taking the game itself way too seriously, and not taking the CAUSE of FIRST seriously enough.