Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I believe that there are different ways to solve our current problems with flags and I do agree that bumper colors are a good idea. What I loved last year were those blue and red lights that displayed your alliance. Similar to this I also saw those siren caps that they used in past years and remembered that the orange lights are a similar shape and you can easily see them from the stands most of the time. With those two parts we could possibly make mini siren hoods or something similar to cap onto our orange lights to identify our team colors. It worked in the past and it would probably still work today if we wanted it to.

Why not work with what we have rather than reinventing the wheel?

Pavan.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What about flashlight LEDs? Kinda like the 04/05 blinkers, but far brighter. They're efficient and they're small. In 2004 I brought a LED taillight from my dad's work to serve as a light in our pits, and it would definetely hurt your eyes if you looked right at it. It had like 40 on there, you'd only need one or two per blinker.

Problem is, I think they require their own special power supply, which means more complicated wiring. But the sirens in 03 needed their own spike, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I don't think the brightness is a problem I think it is just how small they are and that they flash. If you have diffused red LEDs in a light bar accross the top of the robot, that wouldnt be as bright but it is more visible.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

As someone who "grew up" on the rotating light, I still think it was the most visible method of denoting your alliance color. Sure, they were big, heavy, and bulky, but it was just another design challenge you had to work into your robot.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What about some sort of LED lamp similar to that of the rotating light but not rotating and not included in the weight. Teams should make the holder for the lamp the same just like the flag holder but remove it for inspection. The volunteers hand out the covers for the lamps just like the flags. As for the yellow card system, maybe the mount also includes a flag holder for a yellow flag. Instead of a yellow flag, the cover could possibly be striped yellow and red/blue, or there could be an outer cover that is striped yellow and clear.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Well the flags are on the robots so that your average non-participating spectator like grandparents for example, can watch the match and get an idea of who's playing who.

Lets look at the history of the "identifier" in FIRST:

• The Rotating Light
  • Pros: Visible, just had to switch out the lens to signify color
  • Cons: Bulky and Heavy
• Flashing Beacon
  • Pros: Lightweight, alliance color controlled by field controls
  • Cons: Small, not very visible from a distance, overall too small to signify alliances, since it's controlled by the field controls that leaves another place for matches to get delayed
• Flags
  • Pros: Low Tech, just swap out a flag, always visible in full color
  • Cons: Tendency to fall out and interfere with game play

Ok so lets see what we need, based on this quick pros and cons list:

• Low Tech
• Won't Interfere with Game Play
• Light Weight
• Minimalistic
• Always Visible
• Easy for teams to adapt into their designs

The bumpers are a good alternative to the flags right now, they only issue is I think they are only good to a team if all other robots on the field are using that system and all people watching the match know how alliances are signified.

Right now I have 2 possible solutions both are basic:

1. Take the flag and move it further down the flag shaft, than use a piece of velcro similar this. It won't work for all teams but it'll work for some and anything can help.
   1. an alternative to this is you put a hole in the flag for the velcro the hook through but i'm not sure if the flags will hold up.
2. Make one side of the flag have velcro on it, and have a piece of velcro on the robot and maybe the flags will stick on the robot better

There is no one size fits all solution right now, but I'm sure the GDC or some other Brilliant Mind will get an idea to Manchester for the 2008 kickoff.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

BRINGBACK THE COLORED LIGHTS FROM 2003!!!!!!! LOL

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

i saw someone stick the neons from the light boxes under there cart and they were really bright and visible, perhaps a blue or red neon system underneath. take a page out of the Rappers book and ride some neons, really this probably wouldnt work
but it would look sweet.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Sorta like the relay used to power the orange light this year?

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Require that teams build two identical robots, one gets a blue makeover, the other red, absolutely no wondering who's on what team ever again.

Ok now with all seriousness, I have to say I like the flags, for their simplicity and their ease of seeing who is on what team from the stands. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the implications the flag has with this years rules when a tube gets caught, and I don't like how easily they come lose, but these are just small issues that FIRST could easily address. How hard would it be for them to change the possession rule so that when its around the flag holder so it doesn't count as the possession of your single tube and I doubt anyone would contest this change to the rule if ever it were to come. It would if anything benefit the opposing alliance when you have a tube stuck around the flag, as it makes that tube not usable anymore, but it is not near the advantage they get right now, as it is eliminating a scoring robot from completing the purpose of the game. I'm all for any other part on your robot that it will count as possession.
As far as the flag falling out to much, just have a cap connected part way up the flag that fits snugly around the flag holder, or have a thicker flag pole, and a slot at the bottom or top and secure it to the holder with a zip tie for the match... still quick and easy.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What if the flag had a simple spring on the bottom of it so that it would easily bend when contacted? It would prevent many of the situations where the flag gets in the way and in the case of this year's game if it was flexible enough it might just bend over when a tube is caught and allow it to fall off.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I'll propose a flag replacement: Use the diagnostic LED from this year with a red or blue cover (or just have one red and one blue in each kit). That thing is bright enough to be seen from the stands easily, and visible from all directions if it's mounted right.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

As being experienced in sign industry business and visual representation, you got to have a big solid color that hovers over a robot to grab your attention the most. It seems that the flags are doing good job attracting attention, but it has small things to sweat for. I believe that the computer visual representation system (credit to Nate Laverdure) and a tighter control over flags would bring the best visual information to real time in the matches.

Oh by the way, the flag doesn't consume any power from the robot. . . :D

-Josh S.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I have an old police light sitting in my basement. The kind that has a magnet on the bottom and annoys anybody looking in the vicinity of it. It sounds like that is alot like the rotating light method, so it would probably work the best. The underglow sounds fun but some bots have far to low a ground clearance for it to happen. If, however, they were to go with the lightsystem from above some of us are talking about, that would be the most visually appealing. It would be cool and the geniuses at IFI could rig that up in a few hours I'm sure.

Chris

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I'll almost guarantee that FIRST will change the alliance indicator for next year. Why? The flag presents a safety hazard. I’m surprised no one has really mentioned it yet. How many times have you seen judges and refs pull off matrix like maneuvers just to avoid a flying flag? That alone is reason to change.

That said I’m a fan of the low tech solution. Why make things more complicated then they really needs to be? Sure, LEDs would be cool, but it’s just another thing that could go wrong. The flag is simple and effective. Plus, refs can easily add the yellow card flag. Not to mention, I highly doubt that next year’s game piece will be able to get caught on the flag like this year’s.

I think the flag is here to stay, but with a simple modification (surgical tubing sounds good) to keep it from becoming a projectile.