Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Anyone in Pittsburgh knows that Team 1038 used red or blue color coded bumpers to designate their alliance during the qualifying matches. They were very visible to spectators at all times.

My question - can a similar bumper system be put in place to get rid of the flags/flag holders and all the complications they bring to the competition? They rarely stay put; they end up being ringer magnets; and they are often hard to see from all angles. Having color-coded bumpers would solve all that.

I wouldn't expect all teams to create 2 sets of red and blue bumpers for the event, but all teams COULD be required to set aside a square "alliance patch area" covered in velcro on each side of their robot, inside the bumper zones. Instead of flags, teams would be given four matching red or blue color patches to place in these areas for the match. Even if teams chose not to use bumpers, they could still make sure these patch areas were present on their bot in the bumper zones.

Opinions? Comments?

Anyway, kudos to Team 1038 for their creative bumper color coding.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Travis,

Some of the 'bots in Pitt had very little room for this type of card in the bumper zone this year, so there may need to be some sort of spec area for the placards...

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I did suggest that teams without bumpers could still provide the patch areas in their bumper zones (i.e. on their frames or their Lexan guarding); however, I'd intend for such a system to be implemented in future seasons. I don't expect the rules to change in the middle of the current season.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Not that I disagree with the idea behind the color coding. I would be against it based on the fact that it is one great place for us to use our team/school colors.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Understood, it would just force teams to make room in the bumper zone if the rules were changed. Of all the robots in Pitt, I can only think of one or two which were lacking the room currently.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I dont know how much of my team I speak for, but I dont specifically want bumpers on our robots. I'd say it's mostly an imagery thing, I wouldn't want the entire side of our robot to be blue or red. In my opinion, ours looks cooler without bumpers and I wouldn't like to be forced to use them.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Travis,
Years ago, 1999 I think, we did have to use a placard indicating the team alliance color. That was the first year we did alliances. The required placard was not nearly as visible as our bumpers, nor did they stay in place during most matches. That was the year before the really cool rotating beacons with red/blue lenses (brittle and NOT shatter-proof!)
I would LOVE to get rid of the silly alliance flags, specifically this year as they have become notorious for unscoring ringers, carrying permanent scoring object on your now useless scoring robot, and just becoming dangerous projectiles during vigorous robot interaction. With the variety of robot classes and configurations of central mass structures, many flags can not be quickly seen by refs and spectators. I do appreciate the need for alliance identification, although our bumpers started as a silly suggestion during week 5 of the build that has played out interestingly.
Like you said, I don't think anything will change mid-season but if our multi-colored bumpers can invoke chages with alliance indicators, we're happy to help!

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

If you read all of Travis's idea, he suggests an idea for teams that dont want to use bumpers as well. You can just creat a side panel that has room to velcro the fabric. Its really not that hard.

We use our bumpers for imagery as well(red camo fabric that matches our pants & pit), but I personally would be happy to give up half a bumper on each side to an alliance color if it got rid of the flags. I think this is a great idea!

Going back a ways, I wonder what ever happened to the red & blue covered siren lights... They could be difficult to mount, but they were very visible from everywhere... and if you planned it right, they were easy to see.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

i vote no.

Bumpers already get hit pretty hard, and i feel like a small amount of Velcro isn't going to hold Something on that well.

The flags are bad, but many times you can tell which robot is on which alliance

The Bumpers are completely used by some teams to print things like sponsors (look at 469's bumpers if you don't believe me)

Ref's job should be made easier, not harder. What if the placards are blocked by another robot in the way? then you might forget which alliance a team is on and make a bad call (which nobody wants)

With how many people don't read the rules, the number of teams announcing in the pits that they need Velcro for their bumpers would be atrocious.

Good idea Trav, but i don't think it will happen, and for the reasons above, i don't think it should either. Great idea, but i think there are too many problems with it.

Now, that in addition to the rotating light or something like that, would be great!

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

i agree, the flags need to go, i think the best was the rotating light.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

There will NEVER be a solution everyone is happy with (sadly). I like the rotating lights the best, but I know many who didn't. Bumpers would be cool, but they are so visible that they often play a major part of the teams imagery and/or school/team number/sponsor placement.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I LOVE the idea of color coded bumpers! Having a "patch area" to velcro on a red or blue swatch is not difficult at all. I agree with Kim on this, I would gladly give up a sq ft of space on our bumpers to eliminate the flag and flag holder. Plus, it's looking like FIRST really wants to make bumpers mandatory for all robots, so we may as well get used to having them there.

Now, I've read all the "negatives" about this:
- It ruins our "imagery" efforts
- It takes away sponsor ads
- We don't use bumpers
- We don't have any velcro...

These are minor problems that are easily solved with about 5 minutes of forethought. I mean, seriously, how big are these flags, 4" by 8"? You can't find a flat spot on your robot to velcro this onto, or another area to put a sponsor's name? I can guarantee that more teams have velcro than a 1/2" PVC pipe and endcap...

Travis, excellent idea and solution to our flag concerns. I hope more people will read this and agree that there is a better solution out there.

BEN

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Would you also be willing to give up the color red entirely? Because a patch of blue on a red background might not be seen - you'd see the red background instead. And as someone stated, what if the patch was pulled off? Now you're all red, no blue on that side.

I vote no.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I have an idea that could replace flags, signs, blinking and spinning lights, and whatnot. Here goes:

An infrared camera mounted to the A/V scaffolding above the paying field would detect an IR beacon mounted on each of the 6 robots. This beacon would connect to each robot's RC and would transmit team number and alliance information to the IR camera, which would then send streaming video to a computer. Special software (as yet undeveloped) would interpret the video feed, extract the transmitted data, and send instructions to one or more laser show projectors also mounted to the A/V scaffolding. These instructions would include the location of each robot and the color of the alliance each robot was on. The laser(s) would simultaneously light up a circular area on the floor of the arena around each robot in the color specified by the instructions received by the computer. For members of the audience, it would appear that each robot were being bathed in a pool of light in the color of their alliance.

This, sans the exclamation mark (and big ugly ogre), is what I'm talking about:


You could do a whole lot more with this system. Say, for example, one of the robots on the blue alliance has a 'yellow flag'. Instead of a circle of blue light around the robot, the laser could inscribe a spiky blue star around it. Or maybe a robot on the red alliance has just scored 20 points -- the projector could animate the circle for a few seconds, transforming the pool of red light into a rapidly changing mix of shapes. During autonomous mode, all of the pools of light could transform into spinning saw blades. Or maybe at the very end of the match, the projector could simulate red and blue explosions around each robot.

The only problem I can foresee about this system (besides the fact that it would be exorbitantly expensive, would be difficult to set up and operate, and mostly relies on finicky emerging technologies) is that it might be a little annoying to watch. But it would be so cool!

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

the flags are ok, they first to be used with the little square lights they had in 04 and 05 since you could barely see those. i did like the rotating light the most but they were big and bulky and often gave trouble for mounting. i would be a good idea to use a light similar to the orange indicator light they are using this year for trouble shooting. its small and still bright enough to see.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I believe that there are different ways to solve our current problems with flags and I do agree that bumper colors are a good idea. What I loved last year were those blue and red lights that displayed your alliance. Similar to this I also saw those siren caps that they used in past years and remembered that the orange lights are a similar shape and you can easily see them from the stands most of the time. With those two parts we could possibly make mini siren hoods or something similar to cap onto our orange lights to identify our team colors. It worked in the past and it would probably still work today if we wanted it to.

Why not work with what we have rather than reinventing the wheel?

Pavan.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What about flashlight LEDs? Kinda like the 04/05 blinkers, but far brighter. They're efficient and they're small. In 2004 I brought a LED taillight from my dad's work to serve as a light in our pits, and it would definetely hurt your eyes if you looked right at it. It had like 40 on there, you'd only need one or two per blinker.

Problem is, I think they require their own special power supply, which means more complicated wiring. But the sirens in 03 needed their own spike, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I don't think the brightness is a problem I think it is just how small they are and that they flash. If you have diffused red LEDs in a light bar accross the top of the robot, that wouldnt be as bright but it is more visible.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

As someone who "grew up" on the rotating light, I still think it was the most visible method of denoting your alliance color. Sure, they were big, heavy, and bulky, but it was just another design challenge you had to work into your robot.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What about some sort of LED lamp similar to that of the rotating light but not rotating and not included in the weight. Teams should make the holder for the lamp the same just like the flag holder but remove it for inspection. The volunteers hand out the covers for the lamps just like the flags. As for the yellow card system, maybe the mount also includes a flag holder for a yellow flag. Instead of a yellow flag, the cover could possibly be striped yellow and red/blue, or there could be an outer cover that is striped yellow and clear.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Well the flags are on the robots so that your average non-participating spectator like grandparents for example, can watch the match and get an idea of who's playing who.

Lets look at the history of the "identifier" in FIRST:

• The Rotating Light
  • Pros: Visible, just had to switch out the lens to signify color
  • Cons: Bulky and Heavy
• Flashing Beacon
  • Pros: Lightweight, alliance color controlled by field controls
  • Cons: Small, not very visible from a distance, overall too small to signify alliances, since it's controlled by the field controls that leaves another place for matches to get delayed
• Flags
  • Pros: Low Tech, just swap out a flag, always visible in full color
  • Cons: Tendency to fall out and interfere with game play

Ok so lets see what we need, based on this quick pros and cons list:

• Low Tech
• Won't Interfere with Game Play
• Light Weight
• Minimalistic
• Always Visible
• Easy for teams to adapt into their designs

The bumpers are a good alternative to the flags right now, they only issue is I think they are only good to a team if all other robots on the field are using that system and all people watching the match know how alliances are signified.

Right now I have 2 possible solutions both are basic:

1. Take the flag and move it further down the flag shaft, than use a piece of velcro similar this. It won't work for all teams but it'll work for some and anything can help.
   1. an alternative to this is you put a hole in the flag for the velcro the hook through but i'm not sure if the flags will hold up.
2. Make one side of the flag have velcro on it, and have a piece of velcro on the robot and maybe the flags will stick on the robot better

There is no one size fits all solution right now, but I'm sure the GDC or some other Brilliant Mind will get an idea to Manchester for the 2008 kickoff.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

BRINGBACK THE COLORED LIGHTS FROM 2003!!!!!!! LOL

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

i saw someone stick the neons from the light boxes under there cart and they were really bright and visible, perhaps a blue or red neon system underneath. take a page out of the Rappers book and ride some neons, really this probably wouldnt work
but it would look sweet.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Sorta like the relay used to power the orange light this year?

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Require that teams build two identical robots, one gets a blue makeover, the other red, absolutely no wondering who's on what team ever again.

Ok now with all seriousness, I have to say I like the flags, for their simplicity and their ease of seeing who is on what team from the stands. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the implications the flag has with this years rules when a tube gets caught, and I don't like how easily they come lose, but these are just small issues that FIRST could easily address. How hard would it be for them to change the possession rule so that when its around the flag holder so it doesn't count as the possession of your single tube and I doubt anyone would contest this change to the rule if ever it were to come. It would if anything benefit the opposing alliance when you have a tube stuck around the flag, as it makes that tube not usable anymore, but it is not near the advantage they get right now, as it is eliminating a scoring robot from completing the purpose of the game. I'm all for any other part on your robot that it will count as possession.
As far as the flag falling out to much, just have a cap connected part way up the flag that fits snugly around the flag holder, or have a thicker flag pole, and a slot at the bottom or top and secure it to the holder with a zip tie for the match... still quick and easy.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

What if the flag had a simple spring on the bottom of it so that it would easily bend when contacted? It would prevent many of the situations where the flag gets in the way and in the case of this year's game if it was flexible enough it might just bend over when a tube is caught and allow it to fall off.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I'll propose a flag replacement: Use the diagnostic LED from this year with a red or blue cover (or just have one red and one blue in each kit). That thing is bright enough to be seen from the stands easily, and visible from all directions if it's mounted right.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

As being experienced in sign industry business and visual representation, you got to have a big solid color that hovers over a robot to grab your attention the most. It seems that the flags are doing good job attracting attention, but it has small things to sweat for. I believe that the computer visual representation system (credit to Nate Laverdure) and a tighter control over flags would bring the best visual information to real time in the matches.

Oh by the way, the flag doesn't consume any power from the robot. . . :D

-Josh S.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I have an old police light sitting in my basement. The kind that has a magnet on the bottom and annoys anybody looking in the vicinity of it. It sounds like that is alot like the rotating light method, so it would probably work the best. The underglow sounds fun but some bots have far to low a ground clearance for it to happen. If, however, they were to go with the lightsystem from above some of us are talking about, that would be the most visually appealing. It would be cool and the geniuses at IFI could rig that up in a few hours I'm sure.

Chris

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I'll almost guarantee that FIRST will change the alliance indicator for next year. Why? The flag presents a safety hazard. I’m surprised no one has really mentioned it yet. How many times have you seen judges and refs pull off matrix like maneuvers just to avoid a flying flag? That alone is reason to change.

That said I’m a fan of the low tech solution. Why make things more complicated then they really needs to be? Sure, LEDs would be cool, but it’s just another thing that could go wrong. The flag is simple and effective. Plus, refs can easily add the yellow card flag. Not to mention, I highly doubt that next year’s game piece will be able to get caught on the flag like this year’s.

I think the flag is here to stay, but with a simple modification (surgical tubing sounds good) to keep it from becoming a projectile.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

When you think about it the problem is partly form the game. I mean last year the flags were not very much of a problem but this year the game has robots climbing on top of each other and flying rings that seem to always land on the flag. All I'm saying is that next year the flags may not be much of a problem.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Or maybe it is just practice? Last year: First time use of projectiles as game pieces. This year: First time that flags "accidently" start flying. Next year: Projectile Flags used as game pieces? :)

-dave

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Welcome to the 2008 FIRST Robotics Competition - Kiss and (William) Tell??????

Human players put the apples on their heads. 10 point safety penalty for each HP impalement.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

"You'll put your eye out, kid!"

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

A clue! A clue!
Next year we're playing lawn darts.

I have to say, I liked the flags. As bad as they are, it really does make it much easier to identify robot teams. It also made it clear which teams had penalties, in an easy manner.

In '06, we had lexan sides that Velcro-ed on our robot, and they would always come off during the match (pretty much a major annoyance). I'm not in favor of anything of the sort.

What if bumpers had some sort of clear cover, and had an insert, like something you'd find in a wallet, or like a CD/DVD case? If the covers/holders were provided in the KOP, or had certain standards, they would be like flags, except flush on the robot. It would be lightweight, pretty low tech, won't interfere with gameplay, and minimalistic.

idk just a suggestion (since i pretty much shot another one down) :p

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Travis, I like the idea. While Efoote868's clear cover idea sounds good, I think that as long as teams can still put their team number on the outside of the bumper, then I like that idea too.

However, I agree with Jeff, the rotating light from 2003 and before has been the most visible form of alliance indication, as well as robot status indication. With recent years, we have two systems, the flag, and some sort of indicator light. Sure the rotating lights were big and bulky, but I saw them as one of the hardest design challenges with those years.

Back on topic, while I like the bumper idea a lot, visibility may be an issue since they are so low to the ground, and in a bot pile up, won't be easily seen. Could be interesting for referees with the robot interaction calls.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Im probably missing some vital thing here...but Il suggest it anyways...We are required to have the signal lights on our robots, which must be visible, and are relatively bright...why not just make those double as alliance-color indicators?

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

FIRST should make some sort of long-range artillery-based game. Like... Launching potatoes!

Man, after I get the money needed for IFI's control system + Kitbot chassis parts, I am going to have so much fun building a personal robot for me to do whatever I please with it (robo-recliner, Portable Potato Artillery, Soda/Iced Tea Can Launcher, Shirt Cannon, etc).

I've thought this too. High-power LED's (4 red, 4 blue) in the status light, have only your alliance color turn on, have it double as a status light/alliance indicator. That'd be the best option (especially since the rules call for it to be visible as well).

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I could see something similar to the rule about having the team number on all 4 sides of the bot.

Basically: Each of the four sides of the robot must have at least one solid rectangle X by X inches in size made of velcro.

These could go on bumpers. But if they do you shouldn't be allowed to make blue or red bumpers, as this would be too confusing.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

NOOOOO it would be such a pain to have so many bumpers. Our bumpers this year keep getting tore up or off by robots that don't have bumpers and I had to keep remake them. It would be such a pain to have to make at least 4 sets (1 set of each color for backup) of bumpers!!! And it would be even a bigger pain having to switch them between matches.

I do hate the flag system though. During the elimination matches in Davis, tubs got stuck on our best scoring alliance partner, TWICE!!!! And our other partner had to take time and remove them.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

After 2 regional events, we have found that our color coded bumpers have been very effective. They are easy to see and they are fairly easy to swap, however, in both events we did not have enough time to change them out in any of the quarter-finals, semis or finals matches. We were busy making sure that the robot was totally functional. That is why we decided to do two red and two blue bumpers for the eliminations. Our bumpers were always highly visible in every match. There were plenty of matches where we were gently persuaded :rolleyes: by one or more opponents in a "robot pile up" but one could still discern our robot by its bumpers. However, I am not totally convinced that our color coded bumpers are the best solution. We'll see how they do in Atlanta next week.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

Last year we drilled two holes opposite eachother in the top of the PVC Tube (probably not legal :mad: :mad:) and stretched a piece of surgical tubing through the tube. This held the flag in very well and would also allow for the addition of a second flag if needed. Face it, when the flags stay in, they really do the job they are designed for. Others have stated and I agree, next year and beyond we will probably not have a game piece that can get stuck on them. Lights use power and can break. Changing out bumpers, forget it. Our team was in que, next up, when the first call for quing for our next round was heard. With only a few matches between matches the kids had all they could do to run the check list and swap out the batteries. No way could they have changed out the bumpers. I agree with another post that talked about a bolt on flag with a spring on bottom of the shaft. Why not offer flags that have poles 2', 3', 4', 5' long or what ever to make sure that the flag is above the max height of the robot (starting configuration) giving teams the ability to design a robot where the flag could be mounted at several different places on their robot and still have the flag above the robot? It seems like this would give the teams the greatest flexibility in flag location and would not be a constriction on robot design and allow for easy identification during matches.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I like the idea it is very creative but i dont want it to be required...cyberblue234 design this year does not involve bumpers and would not look the same if we added bumpers...i like the flags...in this years' game throwing a ringer on someones flag accidently could decide whether a team wins or not i think it makes the game interesting :) but i dont know i think it all depends on the game and the rules but i hope this all makes sense... :) it is kind of late here :)

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

These rotating lights were easily able to be broken, they were difficult to mount b/c of their size, they carried way too much weight, and above all they are expensive to purchase. FIRST made a good decision in ditching the rotating lights. visible they were but robot friendly they weren't. I'm kinda upset at the fact that they even ditched the LED clusters which were more robot friendly due to its size and weight. I like the color coded bumber or velcro coded system idea it would be alot better then these flags. And a alot more safer.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

The LED clusters didn't put out enough light to differentiate between colors in the middle of a match.

Re: Color Coded Bumpers as Flag Replacements?
 

I know I forgot to put that little bit of information in. Even still, they're better then these unsafe flags. You know how many flags went airborne during the matches in NJ and NYC. These flags are a serious hazard. The best way to do that is to go back to an indicator light to designate who's on what alliance or go with a color coded bumper / material system. Something that will be light in weight, easily mountable and easily able to be seen from the stands. Teams who do not wish to use bumpers can velcro / screw in place a piece of color coded plastic or another material to indicate which alliance they are on for that match. This is not complicated and nor should it be considered to be complicated, Flags have got to go and something much more safer must be used.

The LED Clusters in '05 and '06 pulled double duty as a Team Color indicator and Troubleshooting / Competiton Status LED but were ditched b/c of lack of brightness. Under the Field lighting it was hard to make out which robot was on which side.