Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Based on the results from weeks 1 & 2, there has been some discussion concerning veteran teams not having strong years [Note 1].

Well, rookie teams had better make sure their mouth gaurds are in place because this is the week that the veterans come out swinging hard.

Now to the predictions[Note 2]

Boilermaker Regional:

• I have to go with one of the Grand daddies of all of Veterans. Coming off their big win in St. Louis, the TechnoKats (Team #45) earn their second banner this season.
• I am also going with my heart rather than my head [Note 3] and picking Team #573, the MechWarriors, to repeat their winning ways from the Great Lakes Regional in Ypsilanti.

Chesapeake Regional:

• That noise coming out of Annapolis? It's the sound of the Buzz Robotics (Team #175) using their Dewalt XPR transmissions to win another regional this year.
• This time, my heart was really pulling for me to go with Mo & the rest of the great folks at TJ2 but I just couldn't do it. Look for Team #75 to have a good run, but they'll need luck at some key moments to take home the big trophy this week (they already won the Chairman's Award at NJ so they don't really need a win here to make their season).

Detroit Regional:

• In this case, my heart and my head agree. While I had almost no interaction with Chief Delphi this year, I did see a demo of Team #47's robot just before shipping. You heard it here first: The Mojo's back in Pontiac [Note 4]. Look for a lot of scoring and a killer ramp from the Mighty Chiefs.
• I saw The Killer Bees (Team #33) robot online and I was afraid, very afraid. I was surprized that they just couldn't get things done in Ypsilanti last weekend. I expect that things will be different this week. With a week of experience their drivers should be in better form plus Jim Zondag's will have another few fix-it-windows to do his programming magic (they can already score in automonous -- but I'd guess Jim has some extra coding tricks up his sleave), look for Team #33 to be in the hunt if not in the winner circle this weekend in Detroit.
• Team Rush (#27) is always a strong entry. This is their first week out of the shoot but they should be strong as usual.
• Thunder Chickens (Team #217) -- They had a great showing in St. Louis. But they have a tough choice to make: shift weight to make the arm more robust or put those gorgeous lifters back in service? It's hard to predict but I suppose the either way they go they will be a formidable presence on Saturday afternoon.
• Las Guerrillas (Team #469) had a bruising weekend in Ypsilanti. Rumor has it their robot was in pieces all day Thursday. By Saturday morning they had most of the machine together, but there were still bugs to be worked out and drivers to train. To my surprise they were drafted 3rd overall. They have a very large ramp and a serviceable arm. If they can get the last few bugs worked out and develop some of that driver skill that we've come to expect from Las Guerrillas, they have a good chance for a big win in Detroit.

Kansas City Regional:

• Three words: Baxter Bomb Squad (#16) The smart money has them playing a key role on the alliance that wins the KCR. I just took a peek at the Bomb Squad's robot from their website. Just as I expected, this year's robot is another funicular extravaganza. Nobody does cables as well as those Arkansas folk. Bottom line: Mountain Home gains yet another big trophy.

Midwest Regional:

• There's History, there's Mythology, and then there's Legendary. The Midwest has it all this weekend. Brains meets brawn. David meets Goliath. Beauty meets the Beast. Raul-the-Magnificent meets Mr. Bill. Wildstang (Team #111) meets Beatty (Team #71). I can't predict which will win or even if they'll somehow break the curse and get to play on the same alliance this year. But I can tell you this, I will be SHOCKED if the Midwest Regional Championship Alliance doesn't have one or both of these teams.

Peachtree Regional:

• I am afraid that I have to punt on punting this regional. I just don't have the data I need to make a sensible contribution to the body of knowledge. There are 47 teams competing with only 2 with numbers below 600. I am sure that there are some great teams in there somewhere but I am just going to wait to learn about them from someone else.

Silcon Valley Regional:

• Here is a tip for anyone making regional predictions: Bet on the Cheesy Poofs (Team #254). They won YET ANOTHER regional last week in LA. These guys are the Yankees of FIRST. They just keep on winning and winning and winning. FYI: They have won EVERY Silcon Valley Regional to date EVER. I don't expect that streak will end this year. Go Poofs!

UTC Regional:

• I am not quite ready to call Bristol-Myers Squibb (Team #25) the Cheesy Poofs of the East but I'm getting close. They look like they had another dominant weekend in NJ two weeks ago. With that big win under their belts I expect the UTC Championship to be well within their reach. But there are other veterans that they'll need to get through if they want another banner. If the 2006 Championships taught us anything it is that, while Team #25 is tough, they can't do it alone against three capable & strategically savy foes.
• There are a ton of veteran teams at UTC that should be called out including Aztechs (#157), Aces High (#176) and Int'l Fuel Cell (#177), but I am going to pass over all these and get right to the meat of the matter: Sight unseen, I am gong to predict that The Rage (#173) is going to have a monster weekend. This game plays to their strength. They should have a great year.
• Bottom line: The winning alliance will have Team #25 or Team #173. Run to your bookie and place your bets.

New York Regional:

• If I go with my head, I would have to pick Bound Brook (Team #56). Ethicon had a pretty good run down in Florida in Week 2. They need to build on that but having a regional under their belt will be a huge plus for them in NY where nearly every team is going to be ironing out their first regional bugs. ROBBE is not a lock by any stretch of the imagination but they are almost certain to be in the hunt for a high seed and will be a major force after lunch on Saturday.
• But my heart says that the RoboWizards (#522) will be in the mix in NY as well. I remember working with them in the pits at the very first NY City Regional. They have certainly come of age since then. On the plus side, they have a solid ramp design this year and they have a strong history of winning (especially at the NY Regional). On the minus side, they'll need to have help. If the robots in NY this weekend can't climb their ramp it is going to be a long weekend for the RoboWizards.

So those are my predictions and my veteran teams to watch this weekend.

This is all in the spirit of fun and sports. Please don't take anything too seriously.

Good luck to all teams.

Go Chiefs!

Joe J.

Notes:
[1] I think this view is is somewhat strange given that teams 4, 25, 39, 45, 60, 86, 103, 123, 175, 247, 250, 254, 272, 330. 337, 462, 501, 503, 537, 540, and 573 each have a shiny new banner to hang in their rafters, but we can have that debate another day.

[2] Read the the title of this thread. I am making all my predictions very veteran focused. Don't PM me with a bunch of angry messages about how your team was neglected, wha, wha, wha... ...This is just a fun thing to get discussion going. Calm down ;-)

[3] My daughter, Sarah, is on Team #573. Though my schedule didn't allow me to do much more than to provide a few bits of advice here and there, I still have a connection to the team -- Go Brother Rice/Marian.

[4] Actually, I like the sound of that phrase "The Mojo's back in Pontiac." Especially since I saw the other Pontiac team (GM Powertrain & Pontiac Northern #65) last weekend and, I must say, they looked very tough. They can really score the tubes. Nice job Huskies. I suppose that both Pontiac teams will do alright this year.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Joe - care to make this a weekly occurrence?

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Thanks Dr. Joe.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

469's robot was in pieces on Thursday in Ypsi in 2004 and 2005 too, but it didn't seem to hurt them then. If anything, a Guerrillas robot in pieces scares me even more.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Seconded. I love this Joe, its awesome. A nice fun post, heck if you dont wanna do it, I will. ;) :cool:

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Look for 195 at UTC. They've got a killer design, practice robot, and field. A trip to Einstein last year under their drivers' belts doesn't hurt either.

Go Big Blue!
PS. I have nothing but a loose affiliation with this team... :yikes:

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Joe this was awesome...feels like when the swami (chris berhman) runs through his weekly predictions for the NFL


I agree with tom...195 will be a force at UTC as well as 237/177 and of course the mighty 25.

Also in NY i'd look for 11. 1 regional under their belt, and 2 weeks of fix it windows makes them look like a viable contender down there.

P.S. : Just like tom, i have only a loose affiliation with my hometown team

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

A very informative and interesting post...

Anyone know how many of these will be web casted in some form or another?

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Midwest, Peachtree, UTC, NY, and Silicon Valley will all be webcast

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

The Blue Alliance should sign this guy to a podcasting contract. That way, every week (if FIRSTcast starts existing on a weekly basis instead of a kindof whenever one) we hear the normal firstcast stuff, plus we get to hear from the Doctor himself. You could even have cool effects ("the doctor is in!" "Those are the winners, if you disagree, better luck next week")

Then we could see how accurate he is, and maybe even have showdowns between Dr. J and other firstcasters.

Dang, thats a cool idea.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

116 went down to Duluth last year and had a blast in one rough 'n' tumble defensive regional, I would expect much of the same this year. Like Joe said, this is one of the youngest regionals in FIRST, but it also has some emerging forces. If a veteran team does win Peachtree, it's most likely going to be 281, who won Peachtree in 2005 and was a finalist in 2006. But I'll give three younger teams that top my list for who will bring home the 2007 Peachtree Regional Championship banner.

• 1261 won Peachtree in 2005 and 2006, and is a team on the verge of exploding onto the national scene. In 2006 they debuted their first swerve drive (and fast and agile beauty I may add), let's see what they have in stock for us in 2007.
• 1902 debuted for the Exploding Minotaurs in Florida last weekend, and came out strong. Well, time for 1369 to show off their half of the collaboration. Rumor has it the Minotaur's autonomous isn't quite as consistent, but we'll have to wait and see.
• The Chamblee Gear Grinders hadn't won a trophy, of any type, until they made Einstein last year. Last year's Curie champ had an innovate, unique, and effective design, and I expect a lot from them again this year. Look out for 1139.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Oh, man.. great picks!

My 2 cents:

Boilermaker Regional:

1501

Chesapeake Regional:

175, of course. But there's also.... 768?

Detroit Regional:

217

Kansas City Regional:

935

Midwest Regional:

how about this: not wildstang, and not BEATTY.

Peachtree Regional:

281

Silcon Valley Regional:

Who wouldn't count on 254?

I'll say that 488 is due, however!

UTC Regional:

176.

New York Regional:

375, at last!?

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Watch out for 1369. 1902 is sending part of their team with 1369 to get them up to speed, that includes hardware and software.

It will be interesting to see how they will be doing.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I agree with Doctor Joe about Detroit, but I think at Boilermaker, two younger teams 829 and 1023 will shock some people and take home the trophy. Watch out for 85 and 292, both build strong robots and never get the credit they deserve.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I like this kid. Good pick for Boilermaker. As a mentor for 829, I would love to see us hooked up with 45 again for another win this year.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I can't wait for your prediction on West Michigan.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Also watch out for Team 341 at Chesapeak... along with 75 they will be a team to watch. Just my 2 cents

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I'd take a look at 293, 836, and 1629 (yeah, I know that 836 and 1629 are higher numbers) as well. Not that I've seen anything but pictures. But 293 had a great robot last year and I've heard good things about 836 and 1629 this year.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Watch out for 190 and 114 at Silicon Valley, two veteran teams both with one regional under their belt. The Poof's may be the Yankee's, but the Red Sox's have to win eventually, right? ....right? :(

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

thats gonna be a tough tough prediction with the amazing caliber of the teams attending

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

If the scheduling algorithm is similar to last week, you'll want to get there early to see some good matches in Detroit. Match 1, 2, and 4 could be prequels to the finals.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

These are some interesting predictions considering the dynamics of this year's game. Over the past two weeks I have seen many, VERY good, scoring bots be neutralized by simple and effective defensive bots. Position is too large an advantage to be countered by a complex scoring device.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

In some cases I wish I was going there, but we're going down to Buckeye, and I am quite curious what he'll have to say re: that. :D

-Joe

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I tend to disagree with this statement. Every great offensive robot I have seen, along with many decent scoring robots, are able to place ringers through at least one defensive robot. I have seen offensive teams held to one or two tubes when they are being pressured with two defensive robots, but I have also seen great scoring machines place 5 tubes through one very good defensive machine.

In my mind it all comes down to driver skill more than robot ability. If your driver could successfully maneuver the Rage '02 bot, then your team is golden, give your drive team anything with an arm, and they will manage to get the job done. But if you give a young, untested, driver something like ‘Stang ’07, you may be hard pressed to score 4 tubes.

This is where I see veteran teams having an upper hand. Not only do they have the knowledge of past games to help them train their drivers, but they also have drivers with past experience there to back them up along with new drivers being trained every year that are willing to push themselves to be better than their predecessor.

But back on topic, I agree with every one of Dr. Joe’s predictions. For some reason at UTC I see 173 teaming up with either 177 or 195 and beating the 25 alliance. As for Detroit, I have this gut feeling that Killer Bee’s have what it takes to beat out the 217 alliance. As for 47, they are going to be on one side of that epic battle, I just don’t know which.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I am going to have to agree with the first part of Jay's post, good scoring bots can beat defensive bots. Also he is right, Good robots win qualifying matches, but good drivers win regionals.

As for the part about UTC I am curious about every ones omission of Team 20, The seeded very well(possibly first?) last year and then ended up getting beat by a strong defensive alliance. The year before they seeded first but ended up losing to a 69/126 alliance. I would not be surprised to see them up there with or ahead of that fantastic strech of UTC teams.

If the algorithm doesn't change for this week, we may get to see numerous clashes of titans with the tendency of teams with simmilar numbers to play against eachother, we will undoubtedly see combinations of 20, 25, and 40 as well as 173, 176, 177

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Good predictions.:]
hopefully team 11 will be more focused and try to go fro the win also.
good luck everyone!!!:D

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

That's another big statement :-) i've only seen a max of 6 ringers for any finals alliance (just what i've seen, there might be more) I feel that for all the alliances for all the finals this week, we will see a combined score of 100-120 points per game. That looks like a lot of D to me.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

If you want to see how easy it is to score more than that just watch the svr finals, 254 can probably score that them selves. While the average combined score per match in eliminations may be around 100 the teams that win almost all of the regionals will have matches where just there alliance puts up more points than that.

254, 175, and 25 all return this week at regionals with pleanty of scorers capable of scoring well over 100 points.

Also 71, 111, and 45 debut robots, and while history doesn't guarantee success I would have a hard time picking against any of these teams.

I also believe that a combined score of 100+ is respectable and does not feature much defense. 100 points is not very common, if you look at teams high scores there aren't tons over 100. to say that 100-120 looks like alot of D really shows a poor understanding of the game.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

my understanding of the game is just fine, thank you. it's a combined score for BOTH alliances. that means 50-60 points for each side. with and average of 15-60 "bonus" points per game that means 2-5 ringers per side per match. That IS alot of Defense, when you stated that one scoring bot can place 5 rings through one defensive bot. A good alliance should have two bots that can score and a Defense/ramp bot. You are not going to see rings of 5-7 in a finals match. The teams are just to good. The Defense has too much of an advantage in this game.

you know what's great about predictions? in 4 days we will see who's right. Enjoy your weekend.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Very simply put, we all have our own opinions of what constitutes a decent match, a good robot, and a great alliance. I just don't want this to turn into a heated debate over which is better.

I am going ot be honest with you James, I totally forgot the Rocketeers are at UTC this weekend, I'm looking for another strong robot from their team this year. One small thing though, 45's debut was week one at St. Louis. They won. :p

All in all, I really like what I'm seeing as far as predictions go. I know this thread is just for predictions about veteran teams, but I am looking forward to seeing what some of the newer team's have up there sleeves. Most notably those teams that did not compete in 2005.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Ok so i've sat back and listned for a while. Now i guess its just come my time to put up my 2 cents.

Boilermaker:

45 - the debuted there robot in St. Louis and had a strong showing there. Look for them to make a bound forward and be a seeded team with a lot of influence on how each match they are in will turn out.
234 - This will be there first showing of the year (Long Island is next). Watch for this team to cap like the best.

Chesapeake

175 - They already have had one strong showing (holding the national high score of 318. yup a row of 8 and 2 ramps.) Look for this team to do it again.
341 - Always a great robot. Watch for this team to come out and push for a good finish fighting hard all the way.

Detroit

217 - need to decide if they are going to be a straigh arm bot or a hybrid. (if they go either they are dangerous) After a Finals appearance in St. Louis, coming o so close to that gold, they will be out for some revenge.
469 - This team only needs a few seconds to make you regret that you are playing them. if you don't double team them they will run rampant on you.

Greater Kansas City

16 - BBS will be out in full force. (only one that is a long veteran) but just because of that doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. They are just as lethal as everyone else already mentioned.

Midwest

501 - Already have one regional championship under their belt this year. (along with the national high score... 318) These guys know how to put up the big numbers.
111 - Who wouldn't pick these guys. Wildstang continously offers great competition so what would stop that now.
71 - Watch out for one of those magical 2001 seasons from beatty. But who knows what they have.

Silicon Valley

254 - 1 Regional Championship already. Who's going to stop them this year?? Can anyone?
190 - There robot is solid. Going to be hard to beat this hybrid.

UTC

To many vets to count here (this is just a breeding ground that any rookie would have to be crazy to jump into)

177 - Watch for this team to put up just as competitive of a robot as they had last year.
236 - Haven't seen something great out of this team in a while (maybe im just to lazy to look) but its about due to see something again.

NYC

354 - Already proved they are a decent team. look for them to go to the championship with a silver and a gold medal from this year (FLR - Finalist)
11 - puts up a good robot each year. watch out for this team or they may come out of no where to get you.


These are just some vets that i think could sway how an event will turn out. Just my opinions.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

These matches (all regional finals) beg to differ. ;)
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...hp?matchid=412
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...hp?matchid=413
http://www.thebluealliance.net/tbatv...p?matchid=1135 (video not available)
These are the 3 finals matches I know of with rows of 7+.

If you count quarter and semi final matches as well, the list grows even significantly more (the highest score, 316, so far was in a QF match).

There are multiple ways to configure a championship alliance, and some put more emphasis on scoring than others. Regardless, almost any configuration would appreciate the ability of one "big scorer" to aid in the alliance, and that's what most of these predictions are (although a few have been ramp bots). Just about any bot (with a good driver) can play some mean defense, so it would be much harder to look into the future and see which defensive bots will end up on an alliance that can win. Not every bot can score consistently and quickly, making these scoring bots more likely candidates to end up winning than any particular defensive bot.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

It will definitely be interesting to see what happens in the upcoming weeks... I know FLR week 2, Defense definitely changed a lot!! We were in a match with two of the big powerhouse teams (I think they were 1 & 2 at the time), and we all got shut down by good defense. It was amazing! Not to mention that I dont think anyone would have predicted the finals alliances... not one of the major teams that we all thought would be there! But it was great to see some of the underdogs rise to such awesome ranks!

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Maybe we can split this into another thread. I feel like i'm highjacking it...

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Actually, it was a #1 v #2 match:
365, 73, 1511 v 1567, 191, 424
Score 8-16
X-Cats (#1 at the time, I think, and great tube bot on blue) played great D and left most of the scoring to 424 (another very good scorer).

FLR turned very defensive in the elims. The defense of the 250's alliance allowed them to win it all with little more than 30 bonus points per match, even against the strong 8th alliance of a very good double lifter (1518) and two good tube bots (340 & 354).

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Yes, I concur. This thread is not about O vs. D or D vs. O. Take it to another thread.

Joe J.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

guys what about the Bayou Regional that happened in week 2 and there was very good teams there

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

As far as the NY regional is concerned...there are a LOT of good teams there. 56 is coming off a good weekend as well as 375. 375 won NYC two years running, so they're going for a threepeat. That's not even counting the other teams in the running. I'll be there working the field in some facet, so I'm sure it'll be fun.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Your Silicon Valley predictions are great and all based on past experience, but it seems to be quite different. Here's how I think it will go down tommorow:

254: Amazing bot, looking really good. Driver needs practice, and it's a bit easy to defend against them. Expect to see them rank very very high (even though they lost two matches)

190: Wow. Enough said. Expect to see them on a finalist team as a key ramp and defense bot.

100: Hoooolycrapizzle. These guys have scoring down to a science. In their first match today, they put 4 up on the back side of the rack. Expect to see them in the finals.

114: (my team) A player out from left field. We've gone undefeated so far, with multiple matches having scored 6 to 7 tubes by ourself. We may not be that well known, but expect to see us in the finals.

668: Apes of Wrath, looking very solid as an alliance member. Their strength is augmenting whatever needs them. Look for them in the finals.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Picking Buzz to win it seems simple, but there are a whole bunch of teams complicating the picture right now.

This will be the year a First-BAA "sextuplet" will win. 768 and 1748 are looking to be extremely strong in the going. But Spike is running the table. It will be interesting who Spike picks, but they could win even with two other robots that do nothing other than drive and distract the other teams.

I have fits with the notion that this is a veteran's game at Chesapeake: 1894, 1748, and 2234 are all in the top 8 and look really strong. However, there is a huge cluster of strong veteran teams in the top 25 not necessarily in the top 8.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Your Idea of robots playing defense has ... evolved ... quite a bit since your first assumptions, hasn't it now Mr. Lavery... :p

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

No, even while playing mean defense, the top scorers can still put up a few. This game still has some offensive tricks to be revealed when all is said and done. ;)

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

its funny that the UTC prediction said nothing about team 195...
or 1124...

yet more proof that these competitions almost never work out as expected.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Or 558. Hrmm maybe we should all listen to Tom Bot more often, I guess the practice bot paid off.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I would have to agree with Jester about the Bayou. Overall the teams there were incredibly strong. 118, 364, 701. I must say when we saw that 364 and 118 formed an alliance I thought the whole competition was over. That is until we played probably some of the best defense that I have ever seen us play on them. We were able to keep 364 from scoring at all and held 118 to scoring only 3 with half of our drivetrain. I would have to say 364 is the best scoring robot that I have witnessed in person or possibly on video too and we kept them from scoring at all. I believe 364 could score a ringer every 5 seconds if undefended just to show how efficient they were. Our alliance put together a great strategy and everyone played there role perfectly and we were able to go through eliminations without losing a single match. It just goes to show how important defense is when played well as well as the need for a ramp bot when trying to win by using defense. Also aginst many good scorers you need a strong drivetrain to effectively stop them because many of them like our team also have very strong drivetrains to resist defense. I believe that defense can win but only when the alliance follows a strategy perfectly.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Not reallly... if you don't have ramps, you're screwed.

All an opposing alliance has to do to shut down 2 great scorers is place one ringer on the middle spider leg on each side of the rack, and all you can score is a row of 3, max. If you start to go for the top or bottom, they do the same thing.

The rest of the 2 minutes the other two robots will bash the heck out of anyone who looks like they can score, and then will get on their ramps at the end.

If you don't have equal or better ramps, you're toast, no matter how many tubes you can score.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I completely agree with you and thats the strategy I have been talking about now for two weeks and you are right you are toast if this happens to you.:)

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Our practice bot helped too. We had one set of drivers using the 2006 robot to play some mean defense while the other set practiced with a 2007 robot clone on the rack. That definitely helped when it came to being out on the competition field.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

In theory that sounds nice, but it doesn't always work out. 293, 75, and 203 won Chesapeake with a total of 0 bonus points during the entire elimination matches. I have a feeling that the winning alliance at championship will have 3 scoring machines (at least 2 of which can hit all 3 levels at ease, and 1+ that can remove spoilers) and a at least one bot capable of consistently getting 2 bots above 12".

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I agree, 3 good scoring robots can easily get 8 tubes around with good defense being played on them. Ramps are nice to have but not necessary.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Absolutely not. Ramps are very much required. 2 robots at 12" along with offensive fire power.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I think you're misreading what I said.

If you're on an alliance that has two robots that can score well, but has no ramps, or ramps that don't work very well, you will almost always lose to an alliance that has one solid scoring robot, good defenders, and a good ramp bot.

It doesn't matter how good the tube scoring bots are. Two robots bashing the heck out of both will be able to hold an alliance to less than 60 tube points. At which point it comes down to the ramps, in which case the first alliance loses.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Watch the UTC Finals, team 25 and team 176 played straight D on team 195 and team 1124 and we managed to put up 7 tubes.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I just watched those matches, and I wouldn't even call that defense compared to what was seen at SVR this weekend. 25 and 176 tried to play defense, but didnt do a good job of it at all.

I don't know if any of the SVR elims are archived yet, but if they are, go check them out and you'll see what Im talking about. The defense on everyone who could score was absolutely brutal.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

The finals of Midwest were full of pure tube scoring robots. Team 1000 and team 111 both had ramps but neither used them. 1000 tried to play defense on 111 but it wasn't effective enough. While 447 and 648 scored a lot of tubes, while being harrassed. However, in the end, the scoring of 111 could not be matched by two robots being harrassed out the ying-yang.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

The winners of the UTC and Chesapeake regional won all of their matches without the bonus points. I'm not saying this negates what happened at SVR, but I think we will see something different in Atlanta.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Honestly if you want to see some strong defense watch the eliminations of the Bayou regional. We had one of, if not the strongest drivetrain and our new driver really let loose on the defense. Basically we tied our gripper up and went all out. In the semifinals no one scored against us.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Well, the way you explain it is that alliance A would put 2 ringers on opposite sides of the rack. Alliance B then can't have a long row. That, is correct, but in the time that it takes Alliance A to put a tube on one side, couldn't Alliance B just place a ringer on the opposite side and thus ruin A's strategy and begin their own row. Not to mention taht for ever tube A puts on, B would have put 2 on because they have 2 good scorers.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I agree. In Atlanta things will be different. You will need two strong scorers, one of whom has good ramps/lifts, and a third partner that can cap some/play defense.

Until then, at events where the top tube scorers don't have ramps, and there aren't any real good ones available in the second round, I'd expect to see what I've described happening.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I watched VCU, NJ, BAE, St. Louis finals, Great Lakes, Finger Lakes, UTC, NYC Finals, Midwest final finals, and maybe others?

The main point I got was that defense has a major impact. Ramps are important. Scoring is important. 2 robots on 1 scorer mean 0-1 tubes scored by that scorer. 4 well-placed tubes means no long rows. 1 well placed spoiler means ;).

The only times I've seen ramps not make the difference were at regionals with an insufficient number of good ramps. I've never not seen defense.

I agree that the attempts at playing defense by 25 and 176 were sub par. Finger Lakes, the other regional I saw live, was pretty strongly biased towards defense. I was actually surprised that they (25, 176) didn't try to score tubes, then ramp.

I say that the only saving grace for the offense scoring strategy will be a match with mostly offensive teams. But then, you'll still not really make very large rows, because the other alliance may be intelligent, and place their ringers well.

Prepare for defense. I think it will only get worse. I also say don't be foolish enough to think you can get by without 2@12, or three moving robots that do something throughout the round (whether scoring, defense, or otherwise).

The ideal alliance going into the finals may be three scoring robots, one of which is capable of 2@12. Also, at least one would have to have a good drivetrain that is capable of going on a mean defensive should it be necessary. Ideally, two of the three robots would have good drivetrains.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

How about two fast, agile, efficient scorers and one torque-y ramp bot? That seems like a working combination to me -- Leave each bot to focus on one task as opposed to trying to both defend and score simultaneously.

Having two ramp-bots is a good idea, though, in case one is more effective, that one could be used mainly, but if all else fails, the backup one could deploy.


It'll be interesting to watch the games at Atlanta, to say the least. If 675 doesn't go, I'll definitely watch it on the web-feed and probably cheer for some team that I've seen at San Jose or Davis.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

The way our alliance won SVR was consistency. Every match, 1280 and 190 would score on the sides of the rack to start, and 1516 would play defense and blocker. Essentially the idea is defensive tube scoring. If you limit the other team to a row of fewer than 5, they're limited to beating you on bonus points. We were not the best tube scorers at SVR, far from it, but by the end our driver got into the zone a bit, and we did a bit better on the rack. We presented the teams on the opposing alliance a significant problem: they would have to beat our 60 points plus tubes. The fact that 1280 and 1516 were able to get on our ramps for 60 points in all but two matches in the eliminations (first match of the finals, the main battery cable popped out of our distribution block, and the final match we jiggled our way to two 15 point bonuses) made it very tough for our opponents to beat us there.
If you're confident in your ramp bot and your drivers, I'm convinced that you can win any competition by effective tube scoring to limit the opponent. When you match them on the rack, you challenge your opponents to have a better ramp bot and two better drivers.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I know what you were saying, but it does not always prove true. In New Jersey, 25, 103, and 1302 won by being the last teams at the rack. Once the other alliance had gone back to ramp up, they would score the last few ringers to push their alliance over the top of the 60 point threshold. On occasion 103 would ramp on 1302 as well, but it very rarely happened. 75 and 293 saw some similar results in some elimination matches at Chesapeake, but eventually teams stopped trying to ramp against them altogether, and played against them on the rack (with no better results however). 75 and 293 exposed something that hadn't been exploited heavily in most of the earlier week action (148 and 217 did it some during St. Louis). Most teams (at the regional level) aren't very good at scoring on the top spider. When 75 and 293 got together, they essentially monopolized the two fastest top spider scoring teams, and used it to dominate where most other alliance couldn't touch them. No alliance managed to get more than 1 or 2 tubes on the top against them, and they had a row of at least 5 every match (besides their first QF match, where they attempted to score middle instead of top).
Many people view this game too much in terms of one dimension. While the easiest and quickest way to overcome a "double-bonus" is a row of 6, it is not the only way. The next shortest configuration (a row of 5 and a row of 4 with 4 columns of 2 forming) does require 9 tubes though, but given the ~25-30 seconds of free scoring an alliance can get while the other alliance ramps, it is by no means out of the question.
Granted, I'd still rather have the option to ramp than not.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

The quality of defense at the regionals determines the dominant strategies as mentioned above.

At LA, they were not very many good defensive robots/drivers. They were a lot of teams that played defense because they had no choice (I'll admit my team did that for a while; but atleast we had a nice enough drivetrain to back it up, and a sense of defensive play). Most teams would go out and try to play defense, but they just couldn't do it. We were a good defender in comparison to most, when we should not have been at all (2 small CIMs geared @10 fps, no pushing power).

Pretty off topic by now, but if you are a veteran team... please explain to your partners what effective defense is and how to play it. Many teams had capable defensive robots, but just didn't use them correctly.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

4 doesn't fall into this category. Taking off the arm to play defense in the finals was a good move (lower CG and lower profile--the "What hit the robot?" effect). Plus, they know how to play smart defense. Given a target, they will give that target a hard time scoring. Ask 188 about that (SF2, matches 2 and 3).

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

I probably should of acknowledged the good as well, but 4 was definitely one of the best defenders at the regional.

Re: Prediction: Veterans take off the gloves in Week 3
 

Though I'm a fan of the strategy used by the NJ winners, part of the reason that they didn't score many bonus points was that it wasn't easy to get up 1302's ramp - not that they didn't try.

On the other hand the Finalists had one good scoring robot, a defensive robot and a ramp, but got outscored 140-49 & 140-32. Even if they had gotten both of their robots up 12", they would still have lost to 25 & 103's ringers.

What I've seen and read about the events so far leads me to believe that we haven't seen many cases where there was a large number of good scoring robots and good ramps, but that should change by Atlanta. My prediction is that to win in Atlanta will take two solid scoring robots and a strong ramp robot that can run interference for a scorer for the first half of the game.