Re: It's about learning
 

Our team discovered a fairly specific but still notable advantage to scoring a keeper: the sixth tube in a row is quite critical when you're the only scoring bot on an alliance going up against an alliance hoping to score 60 bonus points. We could fairly consistently score five by ourselves, but had trouble getting that elusive sixth one that would have given us the win in quite a few matches. If our autonomous mode had been working before Saturday morning, we might have had different outcomes in quite a few matches.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

Credits for that strategy actually go to the guys over at 254. I don't know who it was but they helped us think on the fly.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

At SoCal last year, 968's autonomous mode simply scored 10 in the low goal, and they turned that off in order to lose auton and score the 30 as well, worked quite well and helped win the regional.

~Michael

Re: It's about learning
 

The fact that teams aren't placing keepers is what I can't believe.

Here is the Rack:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Here is the rack if Red alliance hits 2 keepers apart from each other:
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 0 R 0 0 0 0 0
R 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

Here is the Rack if than two robots on each alliance score two ringers each after the first 30 seconds of play:

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0 R R 0 0 0 0 0
R R R R B B B B - Red 28 / Blue 16

12 point difference is just like the 10 extra bonus points you got from winning autonomous mode in Aim High.


Now these are perfect conditions, and it is actually possible for red to get their tube where one of the blue rings are, therefore making the stretch even larger between the teams, 20 points to be exact.

5 tubes is as much as lifting one robot 12 inches. If you start off with even just one of those tubes on the rack, thats just as powerful as laying down the ramp and going up about 15 seconds early than normal.


Auto-mode may not seem like it...but it is a powerful weapon, and I am so surprised on how many teams don't take advantage of it.

Re: It's about learning
 

You know-- I never thought autonomous wasn't important. I'm not sure many others did, either. I saw the benefit in scoring 2-3 keepers by the end of autonomous, what I didn't see was the positive likelihood of many teams being able to score those keepers in autonomous. It was more, "I don't think teams will be scoring very often in autonomous, making it pretty boring and useless" than "scoring in autonomous will be pretty worthless."

Heh, I do think that scoring only one keeper in autonomous doesn't present much of an advantage, and I think that if 2-3 are scored, then they have to be on the same row, to really maximize their impact.

Re: It's about learning
 

My look on auto is that the 2 points from a keeper may not seem like much, but if you use that keeper to start a row and place your tubes strategically. Such as making that keeper your center tube in the row, then the keeper will stop the opposing alliance from placing a spoiler to disrupt your row in the middle, thus scoring you more points. Not to mention that if you can get 5 tubes on per match, and the keeper makes a 6th then you outscore the 2@12" ramp bonus.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

Not to mention the fact that they were giving the auto counters a headache--15 pts on 10 in the low goal? I thought that that's why thye changed it. Either way, it worked really well.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

I don't think you saw much of the Detroit Regional. The defense was absolutely the most vicious I've seen so far (watched the others on-line). Our robot (1718) had done quite well up to the elimination rounds. We hadn't had to replace many parts or do a ton of "fixit" work on the robot.

That all changed. We generally had at least 1 robot if not 2 playing D on us. On several different occasions we ended up with robots on top of us because they would accelerate toward us, pop a wheelie, then come down on top of us. We were lucky that we had decent guarding, but it still smashed one of our air solenoids.

On numerous other occasions we had our gripper mangled. We were pushed into the wall by a robot from behind repeatedly (same robot). Our air cylinder that actuated the gripper had the tangs bent closed so we had trouble getting it on and off. Our lower gripper fingers were bent upwards. A deep dent was put into mast when someone poppped a wheelie and nailed us from behind.

I can't count the number of times we got slammed into the rack while scoring, got caught up in the rack because we were pushed, or engaged in fencing matches with other bots arms.

That's why we added a second motor to the arm, lexan guarding on everything, and a gearbox on the wrist. I expected it to be brutal. It one was great competition, and I can't fault anyone there for playing hard and doing a great job.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

The finals of the Detroit regional were VICIOUSLY defensive. Double teams were all too common (as stated above), and the single matchups (247 on 469, for example) were just absolute power struggles.

However, I think it may have been somewhat of a preview of some of the Atlanta matches. There will be a lot of good scorers, but there will also be a LOT of good defensive bots to counter those scorers.

I just don't know. It's going to be an extremely interesting championship to watch, with the strongest robots from the regionals coming together to form wicked scoring alliances or ridiculous defensive alliances (or perfect alliances, with a mix of both).

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

I agree that what you are starting to see in the regional elimination rounds is what you will see at Atlanta (and I'ts going to be really fun to watch, and participate).


@ Tom Line

I didn't have to see the Detroit regionals to see how rough things can get. Here in the NorthEast strong defense is the norm. I fully expect defenses (and offenses) to get even stronger as the regionals (and championships) go on.

and it'll be glorious.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

I question the word "vicious". Rough games, yes. Defensive, often 2-on-1, yes. But vicious? Doesn't that imply cruel, nasty, ferocious, sadistic? I think teams were out to win within the confines of the game, not out to murder their opponents.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

I saw 47 pushed so hard for so long that the rack actually moved several feet. I saw 469's arm literally in pieces at the end of the day.

Cruel and sadistic, probably not. Ferocious and overly-powerful, maybe.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

Agreed, I would not call any of that defense "vicious", but ferocious is definitely right on the spot. By the end of the day, our robot had taken some serious beating, and needed, among others, a new arm, new side panels for part of the ramp and some new structural members on the telescope.
I would not say our alliance lost because our opponent was using the rules unfairly or ramming us, but rather because we:
1) did not score fast enough: even with double teaming, we still managed to score. With more driver training/a better arm/god knows what, we might have been able to score enough to counter ramp points
2) did not coordinate well enough with our alliance with the final ramp points. During the Finals - match 2, 302 and 1502 got in the way of each other while trying to climb the ramp. Taking a second to think about it might have let us all depart with a gold.

I created this thread with the intent to discuss how the game was evolving strategy-wise and reflect on the best way to play that game. What I would like to see is people highlight their own mistakes and take a second to decide on a way to avoid such mistakes to be made again. As a team, 469 doesn't blame 247 for being "ferocious" but we rather try to see what WE could have done to win that match. The rules are how they are, referees are imperfect (guess what, they are human beings like you and I). To win this game, a team must take those shortcomings into account and make a robot/follow a strategy, that can win WITHIN those conditions. It might be very blunt to say it that way, but if a team is not able to win against a defense that would be qualified as "barely legal", then it is not meant to win. For now, 469 falls within this category.247, 124 and 903 deserved their win for a very intelligent approach to a match they knew they would not be able to win with the rack only.

Francois. Sorry for the big block of text, i might come to edit later. Right now I just had time to throw a couple of ideas together.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

True, but i remember their strategy was originally to win auto by hitting 6-8 balls on average. Then on the defensive they would reload a great deal of balls(more than ten) and then hit just about all of them in the offensive period. This was definately a strong strategy, but losing autonomous really messed things up because then they were force to play defense and could not make a great strike with a lot of balls untill the free-for-all.

Re: Week 3 Impressions of Rack n' Roll
 

This is true, but my original point was that it seems much less significant compared to last year. It can do some good, but i think there should be a greater reward for doing it especially since it is nearly impossible to hit anything without using the camera. I think I have seen one or two teams luck out and hang a keeper in auto without the camera. It was messy but it actually worked...once.