Flag Solutions...
 

I see problems with all the types of team distinguishing methods so far. I am not going to restate what has been said, so instead of bashing their ideas why don't we try to help the GDC out a little bit. Seriously considering we participate in a robotics competition i think its fair to say that we are a smart group of people. We overcome much bigger problems than team identification in six weeks. Now we have several months to figure some kind of solution.

So stop complaining and come up with real solutions, and I am sure the GDC will gladly take our suggestions.

Personally i would like to see something more technological considering its a robotics competition, but at this point lets not hold back and come up with some killer Ideas FIRST Students are known for! :cool:

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Let's collect a few here:

Colored bumper patches were suggested.
I suggested taking this year's diagnostic light and making red and blue versions that are easy in, easy out--it's easily bright enough. (Previous LEDs weren't.)
Keep the flag and secure it better.

I bet there are some more somewhere.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I'm not so sure about bumper patches. The flags are hard enough to see as a ref when things are moving fast and you're trying to watch all that you can. It would be a good deal harder to have to look down at bumpers. Also, there are a number of teams that decide not to use bumpers, or make their own (though personally I think they are a great thing).

I would agree with a thoroughly tested light that could be used as both a debugging tool and a status indicator, but if we were to go back to small lights they will need to be a bit more robust, and somewhat brighter, than old ones. This year's lights were certainly able to take a hit (I saw a number of them fly off and end up on the field, but none of them ever broke) unlike the previous years' LEDs, or the even older dome lights. I do like IFI's steps towards a useful on-field debugging system though. You can check radio transmissions all you like, but seeing that a light is not on, or not acting properly, (so long as it works in the first place) is a very good indicator that something is not right.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Insert the flagstick into a one-hole stopper (see pic) and push this firmly into the standard flagholder. The flag is far less likely to be launched as we have seen on too many occasions.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Have teams ship two robots: One painted red and one painted blue. :p

The only problem I see with the flags is the fact that they fall out. The previous suggestion of using a rubber stopper or something of that sort would work except for the fact that we have yellow flags now. Both have to be able to fit.

Maybe, instead of something like that, the standard flag holder could be changed to include short peices of surgical tubing attached (with screws or zipties?) in such a manner where both flags will fit, and they will be somewhat secured.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Actually this has been done -- by collaborating teams. See 968 and 254.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

thats crazy... Crazy Awesome!

OK everybody Partner up next season is going to be very different!

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

how about a treaded adapter

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

What would be really cool is if you did the Red/Blue with cold cathodes! And had them dance in a pattern! That would be cool. Then for the yellow, use this year's diagnostic light. Seems good to me!

EDIT: I guess that would mess next year's game up then.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I posted this in the other thread


I vote to go back to the LED's. I think in the past we just had the wrong LED's

These are the ones to go with

http://www.swps.com/led-x-exterior-lights.html

These are the new LED's Police agency's are starting to use.

SUPER BRIGHT, Alot of agencies around me use them and brag you can see them a mile away.

Kinda of expensive, but have dropped alot since they were mass produced about 3 years ago.

Here is a video to show you how bright they are

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3FcTKlcf...elated&search=

[edit] just noticed these are the self contained ones, they also have wired ones[/edit]

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Thats the kind of thing i am talking about! Just got to be careful of vision sensors i think.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

i like non luminescent like flags or bumpers
it could get hard to drive the robot with all that bright light on the robot

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Personally, I would like to go back to the police lights that were on 2002 bots... that's just me. :D

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Too many bad memories of shattered plastic all over the field.. :eek:

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I know everyone is saying use these LEDs these are bright, wait no use these these are brighter. But like I have said before I don't think it is too important to have a bright LED. Think about it if you have an LED that has a 30 degree viewing angle and a diffused LED which one will you beable to see from any point you stand around it? the diffused you can see from more then 1/2 a sphere around it. All I am saying is don't jump the gun. Besides what is simpler and cheaper, because supposed they muke us make our own but give us instructions.

-John

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Do something similar to this year...

White status lights with red and blue interchangeable plastic covers. Team color indication, Robot status indication, one package.


...Problem solved. Now somebody design it. ;)

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

What about instead of the Orange Diagnostic light, make it have a clear dome, add those super bright LEDs and then you basically have a Diagnostic light that is set to the team color... and for the people saying "Oh, well if the robot loses the connection to IFI, it doesn't know what color it is" then instead of letting the RC control the light color, have a SPDT switch to set the color of the light. I personally do not like the flags as it does not say "Hey I'm on the Red alliance!!!! Woo!!!" but it says "I'm red..." LEDs stand out much more than a flag, and if FIRST gets the high powered LEDs, then we should definitely use them.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

If we go back to the rotating lights or start to use super bright LEDs that can be seen from a mile away (assuming we don't blind someone in the process) then won't they affect the vision systems?

I don't have too much experience working with the CMUcam and my team hasn't been able to get the thing to work for the past 3 years, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. If one of these lights shines into a camera won't it basically wash everything else out and therefore cause the camera to loose a lock on a target?

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Why not use A FIRST Robotics favorite... ducktape and zip ties :cool: I'm sure we can come up with something incorperating both of those haha

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

This brings up an interesting point as well. Instead of messing up the vision system, next year it may open up a whole new can of worms and the robots have to work together in autonomous to complete a certain task and the robots find their partners by the lights and then communicate using IR or something.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

What if FIRST included 8 more cold cathodes (4 red and 4 blue). And teams had to put one of each under the corners of their robots. That would look really cool to see each robot have either red or blue underglow. I would then be really easy to tell which alliance the robot is on.

I have seen teams put the green cathodes under their carts and they look cool, they are bright and since they are shining at the ground they don't blind anyone.

Just thinking outside the box.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Hey, we did that in '06. We drilled two holes opposite eachother near the top of the tube and pulled surgical tubing between the holes(I know, not per spec, but the inspectors that noticed it liked it). The flag ended up between the surgical tubing and the tube. There is also two sides so the second yellow flag could also be added without problems. I do not think we ever lost a flag, and we were top heavy so we did have a tendancy to tip over, flag intact. The flags make it very easy to identify the alliance partners, they do not take power, there is no light to interfere with the camera, and they could easily be held in place. Go with the flags but find a way to hold on to them.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Cold cathodes Are way too fragile to have them on robots that are hitting each other with hunders of pounds of force. I dropped one once and the tube broke.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I really hate to burst anyone's bubble. But before anyone puts a lot of effort into coming up with snazzy alternatives to the flags, we need to admit something right up front: it ain't gonna happen. Why? It is due to a simple, basic fact that everyone has skipped over so far:
$$$

Let's check some fiscal realities. A typical rotating bubble light (single bulb, 12v, single rotating element, including two single-color gels and mounting hardware), purchased in bulk, goes for about $58.50. There will be an estimated 1500 teams next year. Each team needs one, plus 10% more for spares, so 1650. That comes to a total of $96,525.*

The bright LED clusters (including 4- to 6-LED element, programmable color display, protective diffusing cover, mounting housing, and connecting hardware) came in at about $43.50 each. Each of the 1500 teams will need two (or maybe four, but let's go with the lower limit for a minute), plus 10% for spares, so 3300 units needed. That comes to a total of $143,550.*

Now consider the flags. A typical red or blue bicycle flag (impregnated fabric or urethane plastic, 10-inch size, mounted to a 1/4 inch diameter, 36-inch fiberglass whip pole) can be purchased for $6.50 (unit one). Each team does not need a flag (they just provide their own flag holders), so they don't have to be included in the kits. Each regional competition just has to have an adequate supply of the flags. Let's say they need 24 flags (six on the field, 12 more for the teams in the queue, and six more for spares). There will be an estimated 42 regional competitions next year, but only 10 running at any one time (the flags get recycled from event to event). That means you need a total of 240 flags, for a total cost of $1560.*

So, put yourself in FIRST's place. You have a choice between three options. They price out at $96.5K, $143.5K, and $1.5K. Everything that goes in the kit of parts has to be cost-justified. If you go over the set budget, every additional dollar will get passed directly to the teams. That could result in a cost increase to participate in the program. And the last time the cost of participation went up, the teams screamed bloody murder about it.

Anyone want to guess what we will have in the kit of parts for next year?

-dave

p.s. again, I am not saying any of this to put down any of the cool ideas that folks might come up with. But I am trying to remind everyone that when they start thinking about cool solutions to perceived problems, you have to make sure that the solutions address the ENTIRE problem and not just part of it. "Cost" is ALWAYS a part of the problem statement.

p.p.s. * all these prices have been normalized to reflect unit one purchases from easily identified sources. They can be reduced through bulk purchases. But the relative costs between the options will remain the same. Yes, it is probably possible to get the prices of the lights/LEDs reduced. It is also possible to get the prices of the flags reduced. So please don't nit-pick the numbers and say "but I can get the lights for $1.16 less than that from XYZ company" - that is irrelevent to the central point.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I am a fan of using the diagnostic light as an alliance identification system. I'm talking interchangeable, colored covers as others have mentioned. My reasons for this are that it's easy to see, it would serve for multiple purposes, and there aren't many problems with it. (That I know of) I didn't see any go flying 15' on regular basis, nor did I see tubes get stuck on any. We had no difficulty at all with it. Just wire it, mount it, and there you go. I also believe that the diagnostic light is easy to see, and it gave me the joy of easily knowing whether our robot was disabled.(I wasn't on the field too much)

I believe this would be an inexpensive, simple way to solve the flag "problem". (This doesn't seem to be too big of a problem, but it has been upsetting for some.)

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

From dlavery "I really hate to burst anyone's bubble. But before anyone puts a lot of effort into coming up with snazzy alternatives to the flags, we need to admit something right up front: it ain't gonna happen. Why? It is due to a simple, basic fact that everyone has skipped over so far: $$$"

Take a look at post #22, two holes = free, 1" of surgical tubing = free. I do not think we need an alternative to flags and they can be held in place in the current flag holder for a little effort. I do agree, most of the alternatives could be very expensive. If FIRST or sponcer donated items could come close to the cost numbers you propose, I would rather see something new to play with than something as mundain as a flag replacement.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I don't Know if there a rule reguarding this or not. But why not just have a rule that makes it legal for teams to have thier own Identification System. That the GDC can decide whether the team has to or doesn't have to use the flag. Same idea as the bumpers, you can use this thing and have this advenge by using it but you need to make it to this exact specification. That way FIRST doesn't have to pay for it and it is a standardized way of doing something.

-John

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I was actually thinking of the same thing. Allow individual teams to come up with their own identification system and then include it as part of their inspection. If their system isn't what the judges consider noticeable enough then they have to use the flag.

The only problem I can think of this is for the judges themselves. They've already have their work cut out for them, and having multiple different identification systems would probably multiply their workload a good bit. I wasn't around when lights were used as the primary method of identification but based on what I read on here flags seem to be the simplest and most effective mode of identification.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Simple solution

Whelen FIRST sponsorship :D

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

What if they are on the same alliance?

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Dave makes a great point here (not that he ever doesn't)--flags are an economical choice, definitely for the drastic cost reduction involved.

Now, can anyone meet or beat that $6.50 figure with something more eye-catching than flags?

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Thank you, Dave, for pointing out that engineers -- even those who design out-of-this-world gadgets for NASA -- are frugal souls by nature.

This misses the point. A real engineer won't spend money if it can be avoided -- not even sponsors' money.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Why does every team need to have the LEDs in their kit of parts?
How about making a standardised "LED holder" instead of the flag holder. Run an extension cable from the RC "team color" ports to an area next to a square of Velcro in a visible place on the robot (hold the cable on with those adhesive things you can zip-tie cables to). In the queue each team is given an LED cluster box (or two, depending on how many clusters there need to be for the LEDs to be visible) that will attach to the Velcro and plug into the cable extension on the robot. Just like flags, only shinier.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I dont think it would be as safe, but would definetly look cool:
Lasers

I know they have Green and Red, but if there could be some cool way of shinning a light upward from the robot and have it visible, I think that would look awesome. (If there are other colored lasers, or lights [blue and red] , that shine a beam of light visible through the medium of the atmosphere)
Safety though would take another route probably, because of blindness that lasers can cause. Still think it would be a cool idea.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Colored LED lights...

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

I'll chime in for solutions that hold the flag more securely. The ramp bots especially had trouble holding onto their flags at the end of matches. The flags are actually more visible and cheaper than the lights we have tried over the years, and a lot easier to replace when they break and the lights were always breaking.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

When you start making rules which allow teams to make up their own rules, all such rules (and rules about making rules) become irrelevant rules. :eek:

From a refereeing standpoint, you need a unified system to identify robots. Allowing teams to make up their own methods would prove overly complicate the job of refereeing. And from a judicial standpoint, I think the GDC would have better questions to answer during the build season than 1500 teams all asking them if their own system of identifying themselves is adequate.

As Dave said, all potential "solutions" have to solve all the current issues and do so better than the current choice of flags. While we may not always enjoy the flags, it's hard to beat flags when it comes to being cheap, easy to change before each match, allows for standard and easily visible robot/alliance identification, and allows for the addition of yellow flags. Unless there is a better solution for all of those characteristics, the flag will stay.

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

Art- First of all I am bad with words, so bear with me.

I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. What I was trying to say is have a rule for a robot identifier that teams can make themselves. It would be like the bumpers, if you want to use them then you have to follow strict guildines. This way you have either a flag or a what FIRST would say teams can make.

If it is the same way the bumpers are then you can only make them one way. I have never seen a team use 3 pool noodles in their bumper. I don't think anybody has. why? It is against the strict bumper guidelines.

Let me know if you understnad better now.

-John

Re: Flag Solutions...
 

They do make blue lasers but all the handheld lasers with a visible beam, not just a dot are very pricey. a lot more than the flags a lot more than the rotating lights alot more than the LEDs.