Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I usually call it either "The International Championship Event" or "The World Championship Event" when I'm telling non-FIRST people about it, because it is a better explanation. In oral speech, I use "the Championship" or "Atlanta". In shorthand, I use "CMP" or "ATL". I think we should start calling it "Worlds" for short, since that's what it is and it's easy to say.

Even though this is only my third season in FIRST, I'm used to name changes and I enforce the proper name in written text, published materials, and whenever I hear it. Our team has competed in the regional held in Hartford, CT since our rookie year in 2003, but if you look at our banners from the past three years, they all say different things- "2006 UTC New England Regional", "2007 UTC Connecticut Regional", "2008 Connecticut Regional". It took the team a while to adjust to the different names, and some people insist on calling it the "Hartford Regional" after the city it's held in.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I would call it championships.. although some teams do get in "randomly" The winners of the events have won everything, therefore are champions. Its the biggest event to win, therefore should be treated as such

That and if the media were around, which would sound like a bigger deal "National Champion" or "World Champion"?? (this is in a media sense only!)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

that makes alot of sense i think that im going to do that now. and are internationals always going to be in georgia?

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

FIRST has designated names for the events held in spring for FLL, FTC and FRC: FIRST Robotics Competition Championship, FIRST Tech Challenge World Championship, FIRST LEGO League World Festival. That's what should be used, to provide consistency in our messages to the media, etc., and to be aligned with what FIRST markets the events as.

And the location of the Championship event (as FIRST calls the entire event) changes - in recent memory it has been held at DisneyWorld in Orlando, FL, at the Astrodome in Houston, TX, and most recently at the Georgia Dome/World Congress Center in Atlanta, GA.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

FVC changed to FTC this year. Many people still called it "Vex" - in fact, CD still calls the sub-forum Vex. (Note to mods - need to start a FTC forum and move threads accordingly. A big task, methinks.)

Danny, will you have no problem next year if FTC is still called Vex? Or if the new FRC controller is mistakenly attributed to IFI? I can see those mistakes happening for several years to come, to the consternation of LEGO and NI. Why shouldn't this community be as sensitive toward our international teams and compatriots?

Does it matter a rat's patootie in the long run? No. But there's no need to intentionally disrespect the feelings of others.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

If my name is going to be connected with the term, yelling, I would like to take a moment to address it.

Taking a step back - FIRST started small and developed over time. A very short amount of time, if you think about it. Big Mike's post refers to a different time, a different era. That is when the competition was called, the Nationals. And then, FIRST grew and with growth, changed the name of the gathering of all of the teams that come together in the final event of the season. It is called the Championship event.

Change is very hard. We see it reflected in these fora often:
- discussions of name changes for teams
- event changes
- technological changes
- changes in sponsors, schools, mentors
- students graduating

That's just a few. Change. How we handle it, deal with it, respect it - is up to us individually and as a team/group/organization. It shows who we are and what we are made of.

--
So there you go,
that's pretty much how I 'yell'. :)
Jane

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

AHHH my ears....:P you yell loudly..:D

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I feel like this point needs to be brought back up.

I'm starting to see more use of the term "Nationals". Which is incorrect. we have 23 International Team attending te CHAMPIONSHIP EVENT. along with various numbers of INTERNATIONAL teams competing in the FLL World Festival and FTC Championships.

So please people, just a reminder, If this event was a National competition, it would be called that, but because it isn't. It should be called it's appropriate name.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I have been in FIRST since the 2005 season and was taught it was called Nationals for 2 years. To me it will always be Nationals, but I also call it "The World Torny" or just Champs. Incorrect or not I dont see why it's a huge deal. If you think about it Nationals can be twisted to mean more then one nation.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

As a corollary, if FIRST wants to discourage the use of "Nationals" why do they refuse to call it the "World Championship"?

Baseball sees it fit to call the World Series winner the world champ, with only one international team in the league. Why shouldn't we?

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

This may upset a few people, but I don't really seem to mind what you call it. Maybe this is because I'm a pretty laid back person or maybe this is because I am not from another country so it doesn't offend me personally. Others on my team do care and since no one could ever "get it right" we've just started calling it the endearing term of "Atlanta". For me, I realize that no one means any harm by calling it Nationals, so if you slip up, or are stuck in your nostalgic ways, so be it. The name isn't as important as what goes on at the event. The fact that we do include international teams and treat each one with respect and equality is the important thing. Not what someone calls it.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

As a member of a team from outside the US, I would appreciate people making the effort just so we feel people know we exist... :P

if someone knows of the Israeli, Brazilian, British, German, Turkish or "Bosnia and Herzegovina"ian teams I think he'd be hard pressed to fall back to using nationals, since it is simply not that anymore.

The "FRC Championship" is a much more inclusive term which doesn't marginalize us foreigners... :)

So yeah, i'd appreciate the effort, if only for the feeling that people know we exist.

-Leav

p.s.
The captain from "Spirit of the United Neretva" - Team 3368 (Bosnia and Herzegovina) won the Dean's List award at the Israeli regional!

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

same here... i was always told that it was nationals... but now everyone on my team is telling me to call it Championships... i just say nationals out of habbit

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Anybody notice that this was a thread that was last posted in May of 2008? Things have changed a lot since then. If you hear me refer to the Champs as Nationals, please forgive an old man who has gone through more than half of his First existence going to "Nationals".

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Agreed, although I'm not an old man and I just grew up with Nationals as the name, 15 years of FIRST. Although, I'm starting to come out of the Nationals way and into the way of calling it Championships. :)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I don't mind it to much in casual conversation.

When it gets annoying is in written documents that are presented to the outside world. It can be, and will be confusing to someone if you try to explain FIRST and are talking 'nationals' but the brochure you just handed them says 'championships', and then later on FIRST's website it says 'FIRST Championship'. Now you have three separate events in their mind no matter how many times you tell them they are all the same.

Avoid this at all costs.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Not according to your signature, Cassie. :)

When I began participating in FIRST in 1998, official documentation and communications from FIRST called it the Championships. This same discussion took place at that time. It's been 12 years and many still call it the "Nationals".

I like Cory's idea. It should be called the "World Championships".

Andy

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I just cover all the bases and call it the "International Championship". Sounds even more awesomer.

I used to say Nationals as well, but the first time I said "Nationals" to my co-worker at FIRST, she was quick to correct me. Said they "stopped calling it that ages ago".

Either way, I don't think people should get in a tizzy over it. No matter what it's called, its a competition and celebration of the hard work and commitment of students all over that are going to one day change the world - and as long as people know that, then they can call it "the big robotics competition" for all I care =)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I say "The Galaxy Championships", you know...just to be safe so we don't have to go through this again in a couple of years...

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Since I've been on the team we've always called it the Championship or the World Championship.

It makes us feel more important and special when we go. :D

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Funny how it is I'm an offender of this within the FTC Threads, Though I understand your point It's sorta burned into my head that way, though recently I just call it the World Cup of Robotics.

WORLD CUP HELLO IT'S SOCCER!!!

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Precisely, Leav. The term is behind the times. It once was Nationals and then it grew.

Gosh, if Al is an old man, then I must be ancient. I may start crumbling to dust at any moment.

Jane

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I tried to find this thread a few weeks back when I started to get a bit annoyed with the number of people calling it Nationals. I was in FIRST when it was Nationals, and probably called it so for a few years after, but as International teams started joining us, I saw it as disrespectful (dont get me started on the speeches - "we need to make THIS country great..blahblahblah"). I know people don't mean disrespect, but think of the teams coming from outside the USA. We should be welcoming them and making them feel like they are just as much a part of all of this as we are (because they are!!!). We had a great time with our alliance partner the Brazilian team 383 at Boston (and were excited to hear they won CT!). And that is a reminder that this is an INTERNational competition.

Plus, its way cooler to say we won the INTERNATIONAL Judges award or INTERNATIONAL Rookie All Star Award... The Press and Media pick up on things that sound bigger than just a national competition. If you want more press, if you want more exposure for FIRST and if you want to respect the international teams, stop calling it Nationals, start welcoming everyone, and call it what it is... Championships :)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

World Cup is a registered trademark.

Maybe FIRST could trade with FIFA - we could use World Cup, they could use Coopertition.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I won't turn ancient until next year, I am only turning 59 next week!

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I still, and most likley will always call it nationals for a few simple reasons. One, my team was on a National Championship winning alliance. Two, it was still called Nationals when I was around and thats what I know it as. To me, every one knows what we are talking about when we say Nationals or Worlds, or World Championships, or whatnot. I don't think it is offensive to people to call it Nationals, thats what it was called back then, and thats what I will always call it.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I always forget that you are the eldest - by a hair.

--
I think it is a poor assumption that everyone knows what we are talking about no matter what name we use.

Kim has an important point about the impact of using the term, Championship or World Championship. If we want to stay self-centered and use narrow thinking then yes, the name we use as teams and team members does not matter. If we want to think and act locally and globally, then it matters very much and our thinking must become more visionary and far reaching. If you make signage to promote the fact that you are participating in Atlanta, what are the signs going to say? If you have them professionally printed - in other words, incurring expense - what are the signs going to say? Are they going to be accurate or inaccurate - making the effort and expense either valuable or a waste of time and money?

Sometimes, I think - by reading posts in threads like this that we show our worst sides rather than our best. Threads are opportunities to show respect, humility, understanding, and wisdom. They can also provide opportunities to show arrogance, self-centeredness, and lazy thinking which we then try to justify.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

QFT


I don't care if you hate everything outside of the good ole U.S. of 'merica, or have been in FIRST since '92, FIRST is a brand. It looks to us to sell and promote this brand. By calling the same event by two names we are diluting the brand. Is it nationals or championship? Is nationals in the championship? Does each country have a nationals? We have the privilege to talk to sponsors, alumni, politicians, and the media. These people can give you money, power, and help. Do you want them to be confused between your jargon and FIRST's?

There's a difference between slipping up and relentlessly calling it Nationals because it's retro or lazy.

Stop it. Or heaven forbid I turn this thing right around and go back home.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

FIRST Championship.

It's simple and fully inclusive (even for Dave's "other cars on Mars" if they get into the mix.) :D

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Haha this is true, I know, I can be a bit slow sometimes. Thanks Andy. I agree, I like the idea of World Championships. :)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I remember, as a little kid, that when I went to Epcot, I went for Nationals. My parents still occaisonally slip up and call it Nationals. However, with the appearance of international teams, and welcoming everyone, I agree that it should be the "WORLD" Championship.

The official FIRST name for everything that happens next weekend is "The FIRST Championship" or "The Championship Event", which includes the FLL World Festival, The FTC World Championship, and the FRC Championship.

Why FRC has not been given a World title, I have no idea... but the point is, FIRST isn't just USFIRST anymore. It's time to welcome and recognize our friends from other countries.

Plus, doesn't it just sound cooler when you tell your friends you're going to the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP?! Seriously. Big ol' cool factor right there.

:)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I believe part of the problem stems from "nats" being much more natural to say than "champs".

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

For all the "older" folks around, saying nationals is something they have done for a while. I like FIRST World Championship because it is the championship with teams from around the world, and it is in every team's record bar in their signature! :)

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Somebody else already broke down how they use different terminology in different forms of speech, and upon thinking about this yesterday during hashtag determination on Twitter, I realized that I'm the same way.

If I'm talking to somebody in FIRST...
Verbal: I just call it "Atlanta." For the next several years, it's going to be "St. Louis." Since everyone (or almost everyone - I can't always assume...) in FIRST knows what happens in Atlanta, no more descriptive terminology is really needed. As has been pointed out, "the championship" is a bit awkward to say sometimes, especially if you're like me and tend to talk 500 miles an hour, and therefore stumble over words a lot.

Some-form-of-text-communication: Depending on how rushed/relaxed I'm typing, what the situation is, and who I'm talking to, I switch between "Atlanta," "ATL/atl," "CMP/cmp/champs," and "the championship." Again, not much more description is needed: almost everyone knows what goes down in Atlanta mid-April.

However, if I'm talking to somebody outside of FIRST...

Some-form-of-text-communication: It's "the championship" or "the international championship" or "the world championship (event)" + "in Atlanta." And then an elaboration about how large of an event it is, the FLL and FTC events, and usually "teams from AROUND THE WORLD come to compete" somewhere in there too.

Verbal: This is where I sometimes slip and say "national championship." I don't even know where my use of "national(s)" came from - nobody on my team uses the term, and I don't talk to the ancients enough to have picked up on the term that way. Nevertheless, I almost ALWAYS awkwardly correct myself. "...at the national championship event - err, international championship event; there are MANY teams from around the world that compete there along with teams from the US" is normally how it goes. I have huge amounts of respect for the international teams, and mean them absolutely no disrespect by accidentally slipping and saying "national" - I've tried putting myself in their shoes, and am always incredulous at how different and difficult it must be to compete against one nation's memory-foam wall of pride. I'm sure that nobody uses "nationals" as a term of disrespect, but it's like calling someone with a freshly-earned doctorate degree "Mr./Mrs. Smith" instead of "Dr. Smith." New names and new changes take some time to get used to, and that period of time is different for every individual.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

How do you handle situations where parents call it, Nationals, when they are talking to people outside FIRST? How do you handle situations where veteran team members are talking to new team members and call it, Nationals?

Jane

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I'm not in this situation, but I would handle it the same way that I do when my mom calls cross country, "track" - correct them. Constantly. I would interject "the Championship" right after they say "nationals." Whether or not it may be considered rude, IMO being interrupted makes a person more likely to remember their mistake (though it can work the other way around - Imma let you finish, Kanye...), and fix it to avoid being embarrassingly interrupted again. It also makes whoever they're talking to aware that the terminology has changed, and that they should be able to understand that both refer to the same event (regardless of the political incorrectness of "nationals").

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

One of the cool parts of a young team: If you never call it anything but the Championship, this problem never happens.

Start with the kids and then it should trickle down to everyone else, if not immediately, in a few years or so.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

Firstly, the only thing I hate more than people misnaming things is 3 year old threads being brought back from the dead to continue complaining about people misnaming things. I see the main issue as making sure people "outside of the loop" don't get confused, but many, including myself, find it easier in casualspeak to use the old term. Therefore I propose the following solution:

When talking around non-FIRSTers: Please strive to only use variants of Championship*
When talking around FIRST newbies: Please strive to only use variants of Championship*
When talking around Veterans: Who cares? Everyone knows what you're talking about, and if they don't, then you get to tell your inspirational stories about the ol' days
When IMing, Tweeting, or FBing: CMP actually rolls off the keyboard easer than Ntls*
On CD: See Veterans. Everyone on here either knows what you're talking about, or will pick up on it soon enough when they search for "Nationals" and come across this thread. :rolleyes:

*In any case, I think calling the CMPs by their venue is also acceptable - "Atlanta," "Georgia Dome," "Epcot," "Orlando," "Disney," and "Houston," all convey the message adequately. Next year in St.L this may change, but I'm sure someone will resuscitate this thread back from the dead if that happens.

{on soapbox} Yes Yes Yes, we get that calling it "Championships" is important for the FRC Meme, and please try to do so in mixed company. But if it's not cases [1] or [2] above, graciously bite your lip and leave us alone. For deep in the hearts of some of us, it's still Truck Town Terror, it's still Bionic Zebras, it's still Baxter Bomb Squad, we still play at Great Lakes, NASA/VCU, and Nationals, 71 is still "The Pepsi Team," 51 will be known as "Huskie Chiefs" behind their backs, 33 is still the team from Avondale, we still plug in our OIs and turn on our RCs, the thing with the blinky lights that fails every other match is still the "radio," I'm still "that kid from 217," and I still go past Pine Knob on the way to GMI in Flint! No, some of those things that I just mentioned haven't been correct for a decade or more, but for old-timers, it hearkens back to good memories, friends come & gone, and a simpler time - don't take that away from us. If its not actively harming the FIRST image to outsiders, or potentially derogatory, leave the old-timers alone. {/soapbox}

{Edit} And in mixed company, like Karibou says, correct them. If it's not around newbies, let it go

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

On a related note, when is usfirst.org going to be first.org? Just saying...

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

You gotta be careful when correcting someone though. It annoys the heck out of some people. Also FIRST has one phrase that trumps "Nationals vs The Champs", almost every team says it when being picked for the elims "We Garishly (Think i got the spelling right) accept". It's an undo-able statement, but no one has a cow over that. Just let us people that call it Nationals call it that. Everyone knows what we mean, if someone is going to get offended over it, In my own opinion that's petty.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I know that I saw either a thread or a post in this thread about that. I think that the verdict was that it won't be, because a) http://first.org is kind of already in use, and b) it would involve going through and changing links...from everywhere. All of their documents would need to be re-done, and so would all of the documents of each team. Not to mention links from team websites, links to http://usfirst.org from other external websites, etc.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

It isn't politically incorrect. It's incorrect, period.

Unless you're talking about an event which occurred long ago, the name "nationals" is just plain wrong. It's as wrong as calling the winner of the Indianapolis 500 a jockey, or using the word "faxing" to refer to sending email. It's not merely that the label has changed; the actual thing is different.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

But usfirst.org is no longer representative of FIRST and could be offensive to international teams. Im just thinking that if we are going to throw a fit about people calling Championship Nationals we need to make an effort across the board to delete all US-centric verbiage. While we are at it, why is the manual only released in English?

Im not saying that the Championship/Nationals debate is pointless or wrong. The event is called The Championship Event, call it as such. I just think we have much bigger problems to tackle than a handful of old-timers mixing up names. Do we really not have anything better to do than bicker about it?

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

You're post in this thread, so do you have anything better to do than bicker about it? I guess not.

There's variation, we can remove variation and make communication and life easier. If variation is not removed it can be passed down to newer people and processes.

Remove variation.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

The event is the same, the only thing that's changed is the venue. There were international teams when it was called Nationals in 1998, there are still international teams now that it's the Championship. The National Hockey League and the National Basketball Association are still National even though there are Canadian teams. Why are they still that way? Because a majority of teams that compete are still American. It IS a simple labeling issue; fax/email and horse/car racing are bad arguments.

LOL, Joe Matt sounds like the Borg: "There's variation. It must be assimilated. Resistance is futile."

You can remove variation by getting rid of the international teams and going back to Nationals too. I'm not suggesting that - that's ridiculous. Variation is good for a system - it's good for innovation and inspiration. The problem with a homogeneous population is that it stagnates and becomes vulnerable. Look at bananas - farmers eliminated variation, and what used to be called bananas became extinct through disease. Now what is now called a banana is experiencing the same problem - they're a homogeneous population that's vulnerable to a new banana disease, and they too will soon become extinct.

Variation in FIRST is what makes the program so successful. In this specific case, a labeling issue, it can create confusion in the public, which is why it should be discouraged, but internally, there are undertones with the "National" label that communicate the history of the event and how its changed and, yes, improved through variation.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

This still seems to be a sensitive issue for some. There are people who believe that they have the right to call it nationals if they so choose (which, they do), and that there truly isn't any need to change. The other group believes that by calling it nationals, you exclude those international teams and disrespect them in the same breath.

I would be interested to see what some international teams choose to call it.

((On a less important note would be my opinion as to what to call it. I have never heard it called anything but "the World Championship" or "Atlanta". as such, I call it Atlanta when I am speaking with my team or other FIRSTers, and The World Championship when I am speaking to sponsors, family, friends, etc. While I understand both sides of the argument, I believe it is always better to err on the side of respectfulness.))

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

You would think that a bunch of smart people than can deal with literally hundreds of rules and guidelines could get something as simple as this correct!

formally known as "The Championship Event"

informally referred to (I heard Woodie say this) : "The Big Show"

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

This doesn't quite cover the different facets of the discussion.

Another facet is how the name of the event shows the span of the event and its potential global impact. World Championship shows a much broader span and a deeper field of competition - just by its very name.

Regarding the international teams - they are part of our FIRST community, and regarding this particular topic - our FRC community. As teams continue to grow and develop in other countries, this is only going to grow and strengthen in impact.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

The event has most definitely changed.

I wasn't around for the "National Championship" years, but I am pretty good at learning history. Back in "the day", there were no regionals outside the US. FIRST Lego League was not part of the event. There were no conference presentations. Until 2002, every team in FRC could participate without restriction.

Even ignoring size and location, the Nationals of the 20th Century and the FIRST Championships of the 21st are qualitatively different.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

I apologize, I was merely trying to condense as much as I could in a small space. There have been many strong points made, please excuse my poor job at representing them.

You're very right, it does paint the picture of a much deeper, more impactful event. Largely why I call it as such. However, I do understand where mentors like Alan are coming from with their argument for calling it nationals still.

Re: It's Championship, Not Nationals
 

You didn't do a poor job of representing them at all. You were eloquent in presenting 2 views or sides. All of your posts that I have read in CD thus far, are eloquent, thoughtful, and respectful, Cameron.

I was adding a facet that I think is important when discussing the name of the event.

--
While, I'm here :) - my high school that I attended for the majority of my high school career has changed. It has changed location because of increasing development in the area and it has changed its name. I still feel tied to the school because of my connection to it. The same thing has happened to my college. It is now a university and called one. I address my high school and my college by their current and correct names. In doing so, I am current and I am also showing respect for the growth and the development of those communities and their educational opportunities.

Jane