Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm from Team 1070, an all-girls team from an all-girls school. Needless to say, considering that our school is made up of only girls, the only men on our team are mentors. I have been on this team for four years, and I am glad that there were only girls on our team. The fact is that most girls are turned off from engineering and the sciences BECAUSE of that stereotype that we belong in the home and BECAUSE of the lack of exposure that we get.

From year to year, we have had a hard time recruiting members. However, the members that we do recruit are dedicated and hard-working. Personally, I would rather have a small, dedicated group rather than a whole bunch of people doing nothing.

As to the comment that it's degrading to say "she's the first woman" to do this or that, certainly, to an extent, it is. However, in a sense, there is a need to push into the public view the fact that there are not that many women interested in engineering.

That's why I think that FIRST is so great, in the fact that it brings in both men and women early on in life to get them interested in engineering before stereotypes and society get in the way of such a fascinating career field.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Honestly, my view on this is the same as my view on most differentiation: I'll give the job to whoever's competant.

I love to see girls pursuing careers that have not historically been available or encouraged for them, if that's what the enjoy and want to do. But I'm not going to shove a woman into a career that she doesn't want, or tell her that she can't do something that she wants to do, just because she is female.

As many people probably know, I am the queen of defying the "can't be done's". I have done everything in my power never to take extra scholarships, etc, just because I am a woman. I don't believe in it. We are all humans. When a job needs to be done, then the best human for the job should take it (yes, I am discriminating against bears, dogs and other animals).

If the situation exists where you are being told that you are not allowed to do something because you are female, then obviously you need to fight the system. But I find that to be very infrequent these days. A woman in engineering is unexpected, but not out of the ordinary. People may be surprised, but most won't fight it.

So congratulations to all of the humans, male and female, who are pursuing careers in and enjoy doing engineering.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

[2 cents]

Here is my opinion. ( switching off from point to point)

In engineering, sciences, etc. the reality is, they aren't many females out there. Why? Many reasons ranging from lack of interest or lack of exposure. Is it honestly bad to praise the few that are?

I do understand what you meant when you said that you didn't need the boys to step aside or give you special priveledges to work, because that is how it is for me on my team as well. I didn't go off and complan about not being given the oppurtunity, I walked into the shop and I watched and learned.
But again, you must note that there ARE teams out there out of the thousands that seem to push the girls away. Sometimes the girls are just shunned from the actual build and design.

As for "special treatment" for the women in engineering. It could be possible that scholarships meant for female engineers are there to encourage MORE females to go into the fields. It shows that there is appreciation and support for more female involvement in these subjects.
But when it comes to situations where the female is given the scholarship in oppose to a male just because of her gender, then yes I see a point there.

Overall, just note that sometimes praising female engineers isn't more of a "OMG A GIRL IS MACHINING!?" but more of a "That's good that more females are starting to grow an interest in engineering".

[/2 cents]

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

We have a team of about 50 students and about 5 are girls. This is definitely an improvement over past years, with only 1-2 girls on the team.

With such a large team, we always operate with the intent of helping students find their specific interest (mechanical, electrical, software), and then dividing into sub teams. Students who want to be involved are always given something to do. If someone comes to one of the team leaders, we try to either find a task for them or involve them in whatever we are working on. Because we have so many people involved, it is often difficult for us to seek out the students aren't working on anything and give them tasks. The classroom we build in often gets divided into 2 parts-- the shop area where the robot is being manufactured and the class area where students are hanging around and talking-- and unfortunately, this is usually where the girls on our team are. Often, we get frustrated by students who come to meetings and do nothing, but we neglect the reasons for their hesitation and lack of participation.

My father is a mechanic and has had me working with power tools since I was old enough to hand a wrench to him when he asked. I've built robots from kits and out of legos since I was 10. I took apart a tv in our basement because I wanted to know how it worked. I took programming classes and joined the robotics team of my own volition. I've been commended on my work in the team, and the fact that I'll be studying engineering. (I've never felt patronized for this-- I've always felt like I've been supported and appreciated.) I'm going to go to U of M in the fall to study engineering-- and I probably would have done this without FIRST.

But, most of the girls on our team aren't at that point. They were recruited to our team as sisters of team members or as friends, and are on the team accidentally. They haven't used power tools before, they don't know what pneumatics are, they haven't seen a line of code in their lives. Because of this, they are afraid of working on the robot. They don't want to mess something up, they don't want to be made to feel stupid. However, we do try to encourage the girls--and all the rookies-- to take a more active role in the robot construction. I think we still have more work to do in this department though. We're going to try to set up some days to train students on machines ahead of time (we ran out of time in the preseason this year) and perhaps get a summer project going to get people more involved and experienced in construction.

In terms of special scholarships and admittance to colleges based on gender or other minority status, I think that it's pretty obvious that these programs are in place to encourage and HELP girls to make it into engineering. There is a social system in place that has discouraged the participation of women since before the girls currently on FIRST teams were born. Since elementary school when we first learned how to divide, math problems are geared towards boys. They ask us to calculate batting averages in baseball, not the average score at a gymnastics match. (I'm not saying that girls don't play baseball or guys don't participate in gymnastics. I'm just speaking to a cultural paradigm.) The average 8 year old girl thinks that she has a better chance of becoming the next Britney Spears than an engineer. (I almost wanted to say the next Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, etc. but then I realized, there aren't really any role models for girls in science and technology, are there?) FIRST is trying to fight this, the Society of Women Engineers is trying to fight this-- as are numerous groups dedicated to increasing the number of women engineers and scientists. I have applied for many of these scholarships, and there are many more that I am ineligible to apply for. But, those other scholarships are created by people with other interests and passions. I believe that those groups have the right to spend their money how they choose. All of their causes are worthy, as is the goal of increasing the number of women in the sciences.

Being a girl on the team has been tough at times, and I've fought a little discrimination, but for the most part, we all learn a lot and have tons of fun together. I know that the vast majority of our team comes back every year, and this includes the girls. We work together, we compete together, we get together and play laser tag and watch movies together. It's been a very good experience for all of us.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I am one of many girls on team 1293. At our regional I was asked many times how many girls our on our team, what we do, and how did we get many girls involved. Our females do a range of things yet I personally, and about half of the girls on our team, are involved in marketing and the pit designs. Yet many on our team also do work on the robot itself. I even had a hand at getting good and dirty working on our transmissions. In the first post it is mentioned that she feels descriminated against because she is female, but I find when people say things like that to me, I feel honored.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Ok i am responing to a lot of quotes so bear with me....

I probably would but if I found out it was solely to up the schools ratio of girls to boys or just because I am a girl I would be furious. I would take the scholarship no matter what and prove that girls do the exact same things as guys do. At school, there is an ultimite(sp) frisbee club in the winter and I make sure that they don't see me as some girl doing because I felt like signing up for it but because I love to play and I make sure that they pick me by running almost constantly. Other girl who do frisbee often get put down because they and not passed to and they think it is because they are girls but it is because they don't work hard.

that is excatly how I feel, the girls on our team are afriad of offending the guys so they won't do anything. I do not have that fear and I think that guys when they play around purposfully offend oneanother. For those reasons I have no problem snd saying things like "let me work on that too" or"Do you have anything for me to do?"

I agree - whoever is most capable to do a job should do it, regardless of wheter they are male or female.
When guys(the students) step aside to let the girls do something they almost seem mocking and make the job seem really bad or not worth doing, I would prefer that they do it with the girl or find a way to keep everyone busy

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Yes, that's entirely my point! Girls have to be initiated into engineering, and what may seem to be "not their thing" may actually be a layer of extreme interest covered up by a lack of self confidence. Ultimately, once they've gained confidence in their ideas... it won't matter that they're a girl, they'll give technical input no matter what.

As for getting design ideas, they need to own some kind of design aspect... even if its a pre-season thing or a small part of the robot. It takes ownership of something to finally "get it"...

It'll be a big push to get the ball rolling, but once it rolls... it flies. Try it.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I might be repeating things that have already been said, and I apologize for that, but just consider me supporting what was already said, but wanting to put it in my own words.


Just this year i considered this issue. Why is it that a team of all boys gets asked "do you not have any girls" but a team of all girls never get asked where the boys are, and instead are congratulated. I understand where people are coming from when they look at an all girls team and say that its good to see more females in these areas, but at the same time i realized that you're not making them feel better, but instead somewhat degrading them in the sense that it seems you didn't think they could do it in the first place. I think it isn't so much that girls are unable to do the tasks, as their interests are else-where because of just how society is structured and what girls are somewhat portrayed doing and not doing.

I'm the team manager of team 1510, as well as the co-founder. We had i believe 2-3 girls the first year, followed by 2-3 girls again, but this year we were happy to have 4-5 girls. Our team requires no experience to join the team, and age or sex are not an issue in any way. We teach the kids as much as we can prior to the season. I am also the mechanical leader, and i frankly give a job to whoever isn't doing anything. If something needs to be done, I asked the nearest person near me to do it, and if they can't, i explain it as best i can and sometimes end up doing it with them. I don't care about them being a girl, boy, freshman, senior or anything. We structured the team to pursue this view because in past years (and on my old team) we saw cases of girls not being able to touch the robot. Or as one team member commented (and in no way meant to be offensive) called them "trophy girls" or girls that they just take the competition to make it seem like they had girls on the team. We've also seen teams that don't let underclassmen touch the bot. So when my family and I founded the Westview Wildcats we made SURE that it would never happen on our team, and its been working great so far.

Back to the point (i think), i think its great that girls are being part of FIRST and doing what they're doing, but I always expected them to be able to do it, they just mostly choose not to. I just think that there shouldn't be so much emphasis on the fact that there are girls, so much as there should be emphasis on how the team works together as a whole, whether all guys, all girls, mixed, different age groups, different races, everything. Its important how you work together, not with who.

thats just my opinion, and hopefully i haven't said anything that offended someone. If i did, i didn't mean it :(

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Caio,

I like your post, and its true... at the end of the day its about working together as a team. I like that you're pulling anyone aside who's not busy and taking the time to teach them about what they have to do (its a sign of a good mentor). Yea, all FIRST team members are high schools students who may not understand entirely what they want/can/can't do, but at least they know FIRST is a good thing to be doing... no matter in what role, and it all ends up being some form of exposure.

So maybe thats all a team can do with their young women (a mentor responsiblity?). Make sure that the young women are getting some exposure to the techy stuff and get their chance to wrap their heads around any kind of design problem... even if its only an hour-long thing, sitting down and working on something together? Then, if they show more interest in technical aspects... encourage, help, and let them not fear mistakes?

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

There are a few girls on my team, but certainly not as many as I'd like there to be (IMHO, more diverse = better). I've tried to talk more of my female friends into joining, however, their other activities at school take up so much of their time that (to them) it would be impossible to join.

As far as who gets to touch the robot, none of the girls on my team (to the best of my knowledge) actually worked on the robot, however, it wasn't because we didn't let them, rather, they applied their talents elsewhere (PR).

The school sponsors always tell us that "This is your team, so do with it as you'd like. We're not here to run the show, just to provide adult supervision." They also encourage us to pretty much dig in; if theres something we're interested in, that its our responsibility to join in.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

As I mentioned before most of the girls do the artwork type things but a few, like 2 out of the 7 of us, do a lot of work on the robot itself. One did a lot of cutting things and wiring where the other was literaly "Miss Rules" she basically memorized the rule book and constantly inspected it. Even though I did focus on the artsy stuff and fundraising (I can't help it, I love talking to people) I did have a lot of fun getting down and dirty in the transmission grease (even though I still have a scar on my hand where I hit my self with the plyers trying to get the key out) And I was one of the few females who actually liked doing the "dirty" stuff. I just don't take out garbage.

^
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That is basically how our team works, student run...most of the way.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Girls on FIRST teams. Girls in engineering. This is a very large conundrum that stems from the moment they're out of the womb.

Well, I'm going to assume most girls are brought up and raised by their parents as exactly that -- girls. When a girl is young she gets the girl toy in her mcdonalds happy meal, the barbie doll to dress and undress and style, the small makeup kits at Christmas for that "growing young girl" and other seemingly "girl" objects. Mothers will teach them the important parts of life in being a girl, which, being a mother, will include motherly things. For the girls that become girl scouts, they sell cookies door to door and earn patches for various things.

I'm also going to assume most boys are brought up and raised by their parents as exactly that -- boys. They get the boy toy in their mcdonalds happy meal, the hot wheels cars to race, crash, put on insane tracks and subtly learn physics, the soccer ball and baseball glove for Christmas for that "active young boy" that is growing up. Fathers will teach them the important parts of life for being a guy, and this will include how to pee standing up, leave the toilet seat up, play sports better and, being the father of the house, work on the car(s). For those boys that become cub/boy scouts, they will sell popcorn door to door like a business to rival mowing lawns, race pinewood derby cars (read: power tools and physics, with cars), and earn merit badges for all sorts of applicable skills (especially the multitudes of areas that are engineering in some way shape or fashion).



Yeah, you heard me right, I'm blaming YOUR parents. They brought you up well and how they thought they should -- as the typical girl. Why are there less females in engineering than males? Because since nearly the dawn of mankind, the seemingly "natural" structure has led to women having children, and men providing for them. The women nurse the babes while the men hunt with spears for a meaty dinner. And as technology advanced, and what "providing" implied, the roles of men have simply changed to fit technology. Women still needed to take care of the young the same, however, and if anything have gained responsibilities with technology advancing. Are there examples counter to this? Of course. I would simply ask you to ignore them however for the sake of general trends, because those are what drive differences into the bedrock of society.

Does this mean women in engineering, in FIRST, is wrong? No. Does it mean that many would consider it against the norm? Quite easily. And this has created peer pressure for people to not be weird, to know their place, common phrases in a way all throughout history. Peer pressure has been a social dynamic that has perpetuated the segregated responsibilities of men and women that you can date back to cavemen.

And with the advent of so MUCH technology in these latent decades and centuries, the social dynamics are softening and blurring the lines of segregated responsibilities. At some point along the way in the women's rights movement, it became a big issue that women were equal to men. They always were, and for some reason people decided without direct correlations equaling that women and men were not equal. Sure men have, on average, stronger and larger bodies. Men also can't bear children (except for Arnold, but he's different). Is it wrong for a girl to look towards engines or engineering and decide she likes them? No. But social trends throughout all of civilization have pointed women away from such tasks, creating a mode of the roles women should undertake. Who wouldn't think it wierd that someone take up activities not normally attributed to the stereotypes they fit? It's the very definition of weird. For the sake of not being weird, and living up to becoming their parents, and other such amazing values that we've always had as humans, we have developed separate structures for what is "normal" for a guy and what is "normal" for a girl.

Peer pressure is a dying fad however, and them gals are doing what their hearts want to do more and more these days. Is it wrong? Not at all. Is it out of the norm? Yes. To quite a few, this takes a certain courage that is worth congratulating, as much as a guy on the dance team would receive for taking up his own interests against easily present social values.

Of course, I always advocate girls entering engineering. I've got a better chance to not seem so weird by liking this stuff so much if more girls like it too :D

edit: I just realized how much of a tangent that was off of this thread. Sorry about that. I'll make a short extra paragraph to make up for it.

The trick is many girls I've known don't stick out their necks a bit, to ask for help and seem a fool, for the sake of learning. So instead of learning about drive trains and programming, they go back to organizing the toolboxes or creating the marketing display that allows them to be a part of the team without any possibility of guilt, shame, humiliation or mockery. It's a subtle peer pressure, as far as I'm concerned, and I've seen too much of it. Then again, guys were brought up making fun of each other to build each other up -- or at least I was, being the hyper competitive guy that I am.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the statement I bolded. In some cases, yes, it takes some kind of kick to get a girl interested or get past her conception of engineering as a "guys' thing". But doesn't it also often take a kick to get some of the guys interested or get them past the conception of robotics as a "nerd thing"?

I've never felt that robotics was "not my thing"; then again, I joined the team when none of us really had a clue what we were doing since it was our rookie year, so maybe I'm not the greatest example. However, I really don't like the implication that all girls need to be "pushed" into engineering, when some just kind of fall into it on their own - or even better, seek it out as a chance to learn something new. That's why a few of the girls on our team joined. (I personally joined because I had nothing better to do at the time - it hooked me just the same way as it hooked the guys on my team at the same time.)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I am one of two girls on the our team. I'm the captain of the team and I usually don't like to show-off but if I'm speaking to someone about FIRST I will proudly say I'm the captain. Why? Cause it's like a big "haha" to the people that think girls can't do this or that. I totally totally totally hate it when some people think girls can't do something. And while on them team, I show them that girls can. I don't like the fundraising part [[though I have done it]], I like the hands-on stuffs. Doing construction rocks! It's so awesome! I love the jigsaw<3 Lovely, lovely tool =] I don't think the boys on the team give me a "special treatment" just cause I'm a girl, they seem me as just another team member. I like it that way.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (packing for ATL!) but I am all for girls on FIRST teams. I am currently dating one (one year today) and she is the marketing lead for our team. Her business skills are absolutely supberb. I think a lot of people miss the fact that there is more than mechanical on a FIRST team. We have females on each of our CDTS and they do just as much if not more work than the guys. Like someone said earlier, it really doesn't matter who you are as long as you are a team player and get the work done.