Girls on FIRST teams
 

This thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=56504 touched on, but didn't answer a lot of questions regarding the role of girls on FIRST teams. I'd like to start a new thread where teams can share their stories about how they handle having girls without needing to focus on 842 or listen to boys whine about hypothetically being discriminated against. (Boys are welcome to share their insights, or describe actual discrimination, but please stay away from "well, if that happened on my team...")
I'll start:
I am one of two girls on team 1418. However, as a result of almost entirely female efforts the robot was programmed, the drive train was designed, the grabber was built and the underclassmen were corralled. We did this without anyone feeling the need to "give us a special opportunity" or "let us work without having the boys in our way" (when we were the only ones in the shop it was because we were the only ones who dragged ourselves out of bed at 10 AM on a Sunday, not because the boys were stepping back to give us a turn).
I, quite frankly, find it patronizing when people congratulate me for pursuing engineering because "there just aren't enough women in math and science." It makes me feel like they think my abilities are only noteworthy in the context of my gender, while I would like to think that I would be considered smart no matter who I was.
This is an issue I'm interested in, and I'm curious to hear insights from girls on other teams.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm not sure this is exactly what you wanted but I'll try. We are an all girls team and have found it difficult to recruit members. Many girls at our school are just not interested in engineering. At some of the competitions we have gone to, the predominately male teams have been surprised by our ability to perform well. It is great to see more and more teams with many and all girls. Hopefully we can convince more girls at our school that engineering is not just for guys.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I can understand why FIRST or any other major engineering/science/math specific organization would be glad that more females are getting into the field, but honestly, I say that regardless of gender, as long as you can perform the task, go for it. We have several females on our team (Most are in fund raising division, none in programming, and a few in manufacturing), and I believe them to be equals to myself or other 675 members. In my eyes, there are very few limitations for people (these apply to everybody):

-You must know what you're doing.
-You must know what certain tools are used for/what tools you need (one of the freshmen asked me what a philips screwdriver was... I forcibly removed him from the shop. And yes, our team does training sessions to try and prevent this).
-You must keep a channel of communication open. (675 has had communication issues in past years, they were minimal this year, which is good)


Oh, and I'm a dude. Not that that should matter much.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I've been part of our team for its entire three-year history. The first year, it was just me and one other girl. We gained three girls the next year and all three stuck around this year, so we're about 1/3 female I guess.

One girl is very involved on the programming team. Myself and another girl are in charge of awards submissions. The other two do a good bit with imagery (buttons and designs and such), and all four of them are WAY involved in our ever-evolving scouting program. We all help a bit with the manufacturing aspect, some more than others.

I've been the team's drive coach since our rookie year (my freshman year), and I'm the team "rules expert." I personally never had anyone say I shouldn't do something because I'm a girl (aside from occasional good-natured teasing), nor have I ever had special treatment because I'm a girl. Gender has never seemed to be an issue one way or another on our team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I don't QUITE agree with this. Now, don't get me wrong, when I got into first I knew what a hammer was and what a wrench was for, but if someone asked me about gear ratios or speed in feet per second I would have looked at them like they were CRAZY! I don't think it's important to know WHAT you're doing, as long as you're willing to learn. AND, I don't think it matters if you know all the tools you are using, as long as you learn how to SAFELY use them.

As a rookie team in 2003, I was the ONLY girl. And, frankly, it didn't matter. What drew me into the program? It was the spirit, the energy and the excited faces on the students I had seen a few years back (1999). It wasn't about the ROBOT, or about whether I was male or female, it was about getting to compete in something that was just SO cool. We have trouble on our team recruiting and retaining girls. Yes, sometimes it's because of discrimination against steretotypes, but sometimes it's simply that the girls aren't as interested. This is stereotypical, but if you walked into a shop class, you'd see 9 times as many boys as you would girls.

Girls have been put on a pedastal by the media; to wear skirts and have painted nails. Not to get dirty and greasy and put together a functioning machine. Yes, we have girly girls in FIRST. Yes, we have girls who want nothing more than to rewire the pneumatic tubing match after match.

If you want more girls, exploit that fact! FIRST is for EVERYONE! Want to get more girls interested in engineering? Bring them into the program because of something ELSE they're interested in. We got a new student on the team this year that joined because she liked making posters. Now she's an influential member of our media committee, and I'm sure she knows a thing or two about robots too!

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Those first two don't sound too promising, if you plan to have team members with no prior experience (i.e. most high school students). Being able to satisfy those first two things requires a bit of context, a bit of intuition, and most notably, the ability to ask the right questions. But not having those things at the outset shouldn't be an impediment to having the opportunity to learn those things.

The freshman needs to know what needs to be done (this is distinct from the idiomatic 'he knows what he's doing'), how to perform it, and why this is the case. If he doesn't know, while it might technically be his responsibility to educate himself, it makes a whole lot more sense to give him whatever assistance it takes to make him understand, than it does to simply kick him out. Think of it as in investment in his future abilities. If you just kick him out every time he asks a dumb question—and is it actually dumb, considering the state of his expertise—what incentive does he have to continue to participate, and what good are you doing for him? Now he's not just wasting your time, you're wasting his.

Similarly, even experienced people don't always know some trivia regarding a tool. If I'd asked you to pass me a 3/8" R8 collet, would you have known what it was? (It's the thing you use in a Bridgeport-style mill to hold Ø3/8" cutting tools.) Odds are, if you'd told him "a Phillips screwdriver is the one with a four-pointed cross and a tapered tip", he'd have had both incentive and context to cement that piece of knowledge in his mind. And he probably knew already that such a thing existed, but didn't know its name. Instead, it seems that he earned a trip outside.

The third point is universally good advice, and probably the most difficult to implement. Communication isn't just telling the new members "this is a Phillips screw, this is a Robertson screw...", etc.; it involves responding to their particular questions and needs. If the freshman can't ask a simple question, then it seems that communication could stand to be improved.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

We, as a team, have grown quite a lot over the past few years in terms of female involvement. Awhile back, the team started a female recruitment initiative, and it really paid off. We're quite proud of our 60/40 male to female percentage. While not all are involved in the mechanical section of team involvement, many have been introduced to the joys of engineering through FIRST.

We are lucky enough to have many female coaches, and an engineer who serve as role models for the girls on the team. I may not have contributed to building the big robot (as I'm more of the single member of the web team), but my interest in engineering was spiked enough so that I bought a VEX kit and work to build rather complex VEX 'bots in my spare time. I now work over the summer with two of our coaches helping teach a robotics class to 8th and 9th graders in an advanced studies program. This would have never come about if I had not joined the team.

So there may still be the view where the women take the homely jobs and the men work in math and science, but that's changing...fast. Because of FIRST, and similar programs, more and more females are being introduced to these exciting areas. We should never be told we can't do something because society says so. (We are women, hear us roar!)
We can only hope that this growth in interest will continue far into the future.

I also have to add that we are quite lucky to have these opportunities. Women in the 50s and earlier didn't have much of a chance to experiment in any scientific fields. In the present, women can be anything they want to be, including scientists, politicians, and even engineers. Wonderful programs like FIRST plant that seed in the young minds of the future. Even if these minds don't become great engineers, they could cure cancer, discover how cell signaling specializes young cells to make organs and tissue, or help people live longer and healthier.
FIRST is the starting point, the point from which we all start and all make our push towards a bigger and brighter future.

I've kind of gone off on a tangent, so I best stop. :)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm not sure that's what people mean. I have seen this sort of comment made to girls on my team, and how we've always taken it is as follows.

Girls and boys should have equal opportunities, however, they should not be treated the same. Girls and boys think differently, have different learning styles, and process information in entirely different ways. Being in a room with a mixture of male and female engineers, and our female students, you can tell that they approach problems differently. I went from a co-ed middle school to an all-girls high school, and there is a marked difference in the learning styles. Our brains are different. This being said, a huge part of what my team tries to do in inspiring girls with this program is to not only give them equal opportunity, but to bring the different thinking, the different processing into the open. We believe that boys and girls can create really cool things separately, however, it's when both processing styles, both brains come together that you can create something truly amazing. We take the comments such as "there just aren't enough women in math and science" as compliments, that we're needed, our brains are needed. I don't think it has anything to do with basing intelligence only on comparisons with your own gender, it's a positive assessment of your choices and how you're bettering society by bringing a female perspective to a male-dominated field.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I've always loved my team for their female involvement in the team. Every year we've had atleast one female captain (me this year) and not becuase we made sure of it but becuase they were just always voted in that way. Also every year that team 166 has been around the faculty advisor has also been a female.

We prided? ourselves in past years for our 19-20, male-female ratio. The last few years have been hard to recruit new females seeing how the group of us on the team now have been friends since elementary school so, um, all of our friends are there already. We still try to recruit new friends we meet but most of them just think we're crazy for wanting to get our hands a little greasy.

A lot of people look at my life and at the life of the other captain on the team and claim that FIRST takes up too much time. This also makes it really hard to recruit new girls. A lot of times though we'll have people visit our shop during build season and they'll see how much the girls on our team actually do, we have some in every aspect of the team except Pro-E which consists of two males.

I also have a different view on FIRST than most people. See I don't want to be an engineer. I want to own a daycare or be a first grade teacher. FIRST is actually helping me to do that in some ways. You meet a lot of different people at competitions and other things the team might do and you have to be able to get along with these people. As a teacher you meet different types of students and you need to be compatible with atleast most of them. The leadership skills that i'm learning from being captain also play into if I actually succeed in owning a daycare i'll have to be able to control the environment and the other workers I may hire.

I try to explain FIRST in those ways to other girls but no one else seems to get it.

Tiffany George
Team 166

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

My team has more girls than boys (this is our rookie year) but it seems as if the girls are so much more passive and the boys do most of the build. The girls however are the only people who program and they control the robot and won't let us put on the sensors we need for our defensive autonomous

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm part of team 1002, the CircuitRunners, from Marietta, Georgia.

This year was my first year on the FRC build team (I'm a sophomore). Also, there are two other girls on the team, also on their first year. Last year, I got into FRC after being on another build team fall semester, and being allowed the opportunity to spend Championships in the pit area (doing Chairman's interviews). However, I had a lot of chances over those days to observe the build team (and help with some quick fixes before matches :D ). So, the next year, I applied to be part of the build team.

First, I'd like to say, I go to a magnet school for math, science, and technology, so my perspective may vary from others, given that we already have a more "male-driven" environment. True, engineering and science have been predominately male fields. However, there's no reason that girls can't participate.

I'm all for encouraging females to participate in the FIRST program at any level. However, I do notice that sometimes females are given special treatment. As a girl, I do not like this practice. I feel that things like this should be merit-based. Even a person has no experience, if they have a willingness to learn, that's whats really needed. Also, girls sometimes think differently, and can provide different perspectives. Equal opportunity should mean equal opportunity - it should be up to the individual to decide whether to take that opportunity. However, I do not see the point of "forcing" girls to be interested in science and technology. It's fine to offer opportunities to girls, but asking one to do something that one isn't really interested in...maybe the statistics get higher, but it this really what we're going for?

Since all of the girls on our FRC build team were new, we didn't have a lot of experience. We had some introductory sessions, but they were mostly concepts and theories, and working with the FVC kits. This year, I was a programmer, and worked on a little mechanical. I had little prior knowledge, such as using a bandsaw, and the little C syntax I learned at the sessions. When I was done with my part for the day in programming (either we had written code and didn't have anything to test on, or another programmer was working), I would go to the mechanical area and inquire about what they were doing. I think I did well for my first year in trying to understand the broad fields of mechanical and programming for FRC.

I skimmed the thread that was linked at the beginning, and the issues of confidence came up. One of the judges asked me this question when we were just casually talking right before awards ceremony. He asked whether it was hard being in this kind of environment. I believe that working in a co-ed environment was better for me. I was very shy the beginning of my freshman year, and even though I didn't know much, I worked on knowing the rules and started speaking up. I do have some comments come up from people on the team and those outside of the team about how odd it was for a girl to be interested in this, all good-natured. However, some girls may need a little push to get them to speak up and bring their own perspective to FIRST.

I'm not the main part of the team. They will not 'fail' if I, or the other girls, or any individual member does not participate. But I believe that when girls are more active, there is a better mix of perspectives. Chairman's, Build, Engineering Inspiration, Technical team...It's all about doing what you're interested in. Attitudes also can change.

As a reply, yes, it sometimes bothers me when I'm only compared to other females. But one just has to strive to be the best they can be.

[ please excuse the rambling. It was a spur-of-the-moment, just-let-the-thoughts-flow thing :) ]

My opinion/story. I'd love to hear more, this is an interesting topic.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

i believe that it should not matter the gender of a person but rather their ability. I also think that their how advanced their ability is should not be based on their gender. i find it incredibly annoying when they say that a woman was the first female to do something because someone already did it and in my mind just by mentioning that they were the first woman to do it is degrading their accomplishment.

and overall i thin kfirster are generally accepting toward this.

just my 2 cents

vivek

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

In my six years in FIRST my team has always leaned towards having more girls than boys but this year was the first time we had more boys than girls.
We encourage all of our kids to work on the robot. To help with the promotion of th eteam. To participate in team spirit and to reach for any goal they think they can achieve regardless of race, creed or sex. The last couple of years our coaches have been girls but the last girl driver we had was Adrienne back in 2002. The Lopez boys just have a stranglehoild on the job. Can't argue with results.
I cannot think of any job that is geared towards the students (leadership roles and finances are handled byt he adults) that is denied to any of them. You cannot inspire them if you don't enable them.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

A 10th grade girl on 696 designed the frame, wheels, and drive system, and performs routine maintainance and inspection and the occassional repair on it as well.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Speaking for myself, I know that it probably would have taken me longer to find out about the robotics team at the high school, had it not been for the invite I received to participate in VEX at the IRI over the summer of 2005. As soon as I walked into the room, I was excited. I had never heard or seen anything like it before. I love math and science anyway, so I was intrigued. The point of this, however, is that I know I would have finally wanted to join at the high school, but it certainly would not have been in my freshman year.

After the summer VEX, I joined for the pilot season for the team they decided to start at our middle school. I was in eighth grade. Our team also invited some of the members of the VEX team to observe during the FRC build season at the high school. I was privileged to be able to take advantage of this opportunity. I knew I loved it and I was able to learn a lot, simply by having that time to watch, and feel out what everyone was doing.

All of these things made me feel more comfortable in this area and I had no problem adjusting to the high school team.

I think that if robotics and the FIRST programs were introduced to girls before they got to high school, they would at least want to investigate it and see what it is all about. Not only girls; it would benefit everyone to be informed about these programs beforehand. I know that it helped me and I'm sure there are others that feel the same.

Despite these efforts our team has made, we still have about 8 girls and 26 guys. I don't feel under-represented or anything, simply because our team doesn't treat the girls any differently when it comes to being involved with the robot. I am appreciative of this; I have never been one to like special attention, especially the boys and girls thing, because I don't feel like either gender has an advantage over the other. We all learn, and have the opportunity to learn. Boys aren't naturally born knowing all about math and science, and girls don't come into the world educated on fashion and style and those types of things.

Of course, I'm not the girly girl, but still, I know that it takes the will and desire to want to learn to accomplish anything. It just depends on what you're interested in, what you're willing to learn, the time you're willing to commit, and opportunities you're willing to take.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I don't think the girls on our team share your opinion of patronism, but Katie is almost certain to be captain next year. (We're having our election tomorrow *cross fingers*)
While not involved in the actual building of the robot most of our girls exemplify the other aspects to a robotics team. Katie is currently the head of our Scrapbooking sub-team and continues to make fantastic documentations of our year. They work with talking to judges and organizing some community events.

While they are not actively involved in the robot itself they are almost solely responsible for our image and representation of our team (along with one other female mentor)

They don't find it demeaning when commented on, but also don't see their role (and neither do we) as really separate from the team or as if we have allowed them any opportunity. They simply saw what they wanted to do in our team and made it happen.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

The girls of 842 have commented on their experiences on the differences between when they attend regionals as a co-ed team and a regional as an all girls team.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=56504&page=6

This thread has brought out some interesting things as well.
Take care All.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm the chief mentor to 1311 Kell Robotics in Marietta. We are the team just down the street from the well known 1002 CircuitRunners of Marietta.

I could write a book on the issue of girls in robotics but I will try to hold it to a few key points. I also think the Kell - CircuitRunners (Wheeler High) scenario is a great study in two perfectly valid, yet very different ways to run a team.

Wheeler is an engineering and science magnet school. They draw students from all over the district, including our school, Kell High School. Their students are more likely to enter a team with some technical background and experience. Many FRC teams are like this, with experienced members working hard to do most if not all of the robot design and build, and the students take great pride in this. And rightly so.

The team I mentor is managed a little differently. A poor comparison would be like how a Habitat for Humanity build site is managed. If you have ever done H4H, you will see that you really don't have to know anything about building a house, in order to build the house. There are people working to make sure that the volunteers get to work immediately upon arrival.

We do several things to recruit and retain girls. First we talk about retention. Once they arrive in the shop, we immediately put them to work building or creating something. It is important that the senior team members, team leaders, and mentors keep the ball rolling so this can happen. You are trying to create a member that is "vested". If they leave that first day having built or contributed something, they are much more likely to return to make sure someone doesn't screw up their work, plus the general satisfaction of having really made something cool and different probably for the first time in their life.

Doing all this requires a few things of mentors and senior members. They have to allow the newbies to make some mistakes and burn up some material. They have to really be on the ball and provide bite sized tasks for the students to accomplish daily. It is also helpful to pair up mentors and high experience team members to mentor to the newbies and let the newbies do the work. That can be a little tough for high experience members to do.

You have to allow that you may not make the perfect robot. After all, what is your goal? To make the perfect robot, or have an impact on peoples lives? There is a tendency to make the robot the goal of this exercise. The robot is a lot of fun, but isn't the real reason FIRST exists.

I have to tell you a story here, a very important story. Because of our team goal was to seed 10th or higher at the regional. We also chose to not be a super bot, but just do something, anything well, and we also choose to spend time focusing on other things.

Because of this, we built a simple reliable rampbot. We seeded 9th, and was a regional finalist. It was because of the KISS principle. It required zero maintenance during seeding and during the elimination. The only thing done was we riveted a simple stiffener bracket between seeding and eliminations. The robot was so simple, we could not hang tubes. So it was do nothing and be a ramp, or try some defense. We tried defense, and got so good at it that we shut down some very awesomely powerfully tube hangers. We had a tube hanging gizmo but threw it aside 2 days before shipment. If we had kept our tube hanger on the robot we would have fiddled around with that piece of junk and distracted ourselves trying to play offense and wound up not doing anything well.

But back to your point, what started as a group of well mentored atomic operations executed by totally inexperienced newbies evolved into a well disciplined high performing team. The team leadership is entire girl. The robot is 2/3 built by girls., as is the team membership.

Closing back to the top of this posting, we started with the goal of immediate engagement, by having newbies start out building or doing something simple, and step by baby step, moving forward until we arrived as a regional finalist, with a Chairman's Award, and the UL Safety Award. It is a form of project management that gets you there. Don't overwhelm newbies with inexperienced newbies with challenges way more difficult than they can handle. The senior members/mentor need to handle that but always with the goal of raising up newbies into new senior members.

At the beginning of our build season, much of the team didn't even know what a crimp connector was or the difference between a bolt and gear. At midseason, they stopped and spent a 14 hour day mentoring to another team to build their robot and get them caught up equal to us at that midpoint. No chalk and talk, but hands on intensive learning. Our students were mentoring to students from another team.

I'm getting way off point here, but we are giving a presentation at the FIRST conferences in Atlanta this Thursday at 12 noon in Room C307 on the issue of recruiting girls into robotics and engineering.

From the conference notes, here are a things to think about:

VESTING: give newbies an opportunity to go home that very day and say "I made something really cool" (it has to be cool in their mind, not yours)

THE JUNGLE: like the jungle guide might say, when you invite a girl to attend a meeting, tell them they might get to see a real nerd, but don't worry, they are harmless

GUEST DAY: Invite girls to participate in a wide range of no-obligation one day team efforts as guests or affiliates.

MENTOR/COACH: Mentors need to make sure that newbies are not swept aside or ignored. Much like H4H, make sure that newbies do something rewarding and constructive.

ASK: Asking a girl to try robotics sometimes works. Putting the robot in the school lobby is not an recruiting effective tool.

SCHOOL SUPPORT: Ask the school to have a different teacher attend the build session every day, so that a lot of teachers will see what is going on. Teachers can be effective career influncers and motivators for some students.

NUMBERS: In a typical high school music program like band and orchestra, only 5% enter college with intentions of a music related major. Many robotics organizations recruit by inviting students to be an engineer. That is a little like asking a girl to marry you when you should be asking her out for a 1st date to go to a movie. My point is stop trying to turn them into an engineer at first contact.

You want to get them involved at a level they can be comfortable with. At best maybe they will get a PhD in engineering. If you do this right, maybe at worst they will have a total blast, and become a lifelong supporter of FIRST and education as it relates to science and math, etc.

Let's run some numbers. If you have 20 members on a team, the most you can get is 20 engineers. If you treat these 20 members as future career influencers, the effect is exponential. Each member will statistically influence 2.3 to hundreds of kids in the future, potentially creating hundreds of engineers.

TRIBALISM: Considering using the brand image of the school to support the team. With all due respect to our friends at Wheeler and many other schools, Kell has draped itself and promotes the school brand image. Same mascot, colors, cheers, etc. Just like football, soccer, and all the other sports.

Checkout this link:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...highlight=1311

sorry for the rambling essay but it's late.

I want to EMPHASIZE one thing here. I and the other mentors didn't not build the robot. We taught, and mentored and discussed and argued and cajoled and use the Socratic method and the Flowers method and the Barker method, but the students built this robot.

We don't claim to be experts in anything but you are welcome to attend the FIRST Conferences at noon on Thursday. There is a fee to attend and tickets are available at the event from FIRST.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

The roles that you described are what our girls do traditionally as well and have been outstanding at doing it. In our "little experiment" we wanted the girls to try all the roles. It has been expressed to us over the years, that while they liked doing their "traditional" roles, they wanted to try something else. So we did and we learned a lot!!!!!!!!!!! Basically co-ed teams are not treated the same as all girl teams by many people, at least that was what we observed.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Hmmm, sounds familiar (happened in my own life!) However, do you think they may gain an interest in building the robot if they were given the chance? Also, if they don't accept the offer... "encourage" them to get involved in some design aspects? Girls are not likely to argue with guys over design, they want to help out where they can, but think... they joined a ROBOTICS team. They are already so close, don't let them miss out on the chance to discover themselves.

Not picking on you specfically, see my posts in the other thread. As a "marketing/program" girl in FIRST for five years, only now discovering that robot design and machining is fun and my design ideas are original and worth something... my new purpose is to make sure the girls on FIRST teams also get the chance to be inspired, and don't sell themselves short like many women in this world do.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I think there is loads of material in these 2 threads for wonderful books on the subjects being touched upon. I would love to see books written from teams' perspectives regarding experiments/experiences/growth/development. Change.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

On Team 461, while we have had, in my four years, more boys than girls, we don't really recognize the gender differences. Tryouts for positions are all conducted based on merit, not on gender...so some years, we've had an all-male drive team, while other years, we've had a co-ed drive team.

If we must make a distinction, then the girls on our team are amazing, especially the resourceful programmers who made us what our driver calls a "sweet autonomous mode." Girls play an important role on WBI, being involved with everything that we do, such as robot construction and the website, and sometimes (as in programming) taking the dominant role.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I agree completely with all who have already said that it is degrading when people tell you that they are proud of your accomplishments because you are a girl, and there aren't enough women in the industry.

1983 is a rookie team, and we have three girls on the team. However, I was the only one who took an active role. One girl didn't show up until the last two meetings before our first regional, and the other had minimal participation and helped a (very) small amount with our practice chairman's award entry. I was responsible for the entire design and construction of our electrical system, as well as putting together our chassis and assisting with the drive train. Electronics have mildly interested me in the past, but now I can't wait to get started on next years bot! Messy wires is something that drives me crazy, and by the end of it all, with all the last minute changes we made on our bot (completely transforming from ramp bot to arm bot in the last 20 hours before ship) the wires got a little messy. I am proud to say though, that they are still more organized than most teams that I have seen.

Our school as a whole is a science, math and technology school in itself, so there is no lack of interest in the team (now). After we came home with a regional win in Las Vegas, almost all 270 some students that aren't on the team yet, are all begging to join. The issue about recruiting girls to the team is that our school itself is only about 20% female. Of our 18 FIRSTers, 3 are girls. That's already almost the same persentage of our school as a whole. Our recruiting, we have now realized, needs to come straight from the middle schools. We are a public school, but you have to apply to get in. We have recruiting teams that go out to the middle schools, but there isn't much robotics info going out. That's our next step in stepping up our game and becoming the best team we can be. Not just with recruiting girls, but with all the potential super nerds like us out there.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

When people congratulate you for pursuing engineering, they are not congratulating you on your abilities (not that your abilities are bad) but your decision to pursue engineering. Such a decision is definitely worth being proud of. For whatever reasons (which I can rationalize but will not mention), women are still intimidated by a career in science, math and technology, and engineering especially. You, and the many other women in FIRST, have deviated from the norm and jumped into a field dominated by men. This bravery deserves its congratulations.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm a third year mentor on Team 1038 and since I have been involved with the team, we have tried to increase our female membership each year. This year we reached 33% female membership and next year our entire leadership group will be females. The ones that I have personally worked with are strong leaders and I expect great things from them. I am looking forward to next year and seeing these young ladies take over the leadership of our team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I wanted to throw in the dynamic to you girls who do not like to be given special treatment. If you were given a full ride because you were a girl engineer, would you accept it?

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Hypothetical situation: If I got a scholarship, and was later told that I only got it because I am a girl, I would be very upset, especially if I took away a scholarship from someone who deserved it more, based on merit. Had I got it because I actually was the best applicant, that's another story.

It's all about the attitudes like these that people have towards gender equality, and it's a very controversial topic in all areas [off topic]anyone else hear of the possibility of men AND women military draft if women want 'equal treatment'?[/offtopic].

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I am a senior & this is my first year doing FIRST because I hadn't heard about it before. This year our team has 13 students & 4 are girls.

I know that our team is small & so my experiences may be a little skewed but our team basically let everyone do what they're best at. Now we have a small team so everyone helps build the robot to some extent. But in general i noticed that most of the girls on the team spent a little more time on the less-mechanical side of the team -- artwork, making pins, fundraising, etc. some more than others.

Now I am an entirely different story. I am not at all into artwork and I hate fundraising (even though I've done it). I love doing mechanical stuff, so I was put in charge of building our ramp (which BTW is really cool -- it's made out of aircraft flooring, it is pneumatic, & it's double-jointed so we have a shallow ramp for 12" & are still only 4 ft. tall). And then other stuff I just kind of did because nobody else was doing it (rules expert and scout captain), so I am also one of our tactitians/coaches.

Occasionally some of our team would joke about all the other girls making pins & me testing a ramp. But I don't feel "non-girly" because I'm covered in aluminum dust & have loctite all over my hands. I'm just having fun doing what I like. & if there's anyone else on our team who is better at doing whatever I'm doing I'll let them.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

We have one girl actively involved on building the robot because she wanted to. She does a good job, but nobody really sees it as "wow, that girl is good at robotics" but more as "That student did a good job with that arm."

It almost seems in your post (and I'm sure this was not your intention at all) that you are portraying girls as objects that you have to initiate into engineering. We certainly give them the chance to work on the robot but its just not their thing.
Its more like "We have 5 students on our team who don't work on the actual robot; 3 happen to be girls."

There's no real difference in opportunity, they just chose not to do that aspect of the team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Our team, both as rookies and this year, has numerous girls. I know that at least seven were regularly working on our team on the website, business, and management aspects of the team and one that worked with the building of the robot.

Our team is pretty good at taking a diverse sample of people from the school as our IT school represents a large number and diversity of students interested in the program.

Of course, the most important girl (or woman) of all on our team is our team leader/head mentor, Mrs. Drake. ;)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm from Team 1070, an all-girls team from an all-girls school. Needless to say, considering that our school is made up of only girls, the only men on our team are mentors. I have been on this team for four years, and I am glad that there were only girls on our team. The fact is that most girls are turned off from engineering and the sciences BECAUSE of that stereotype that we belong in the home and BECAUSE of the lack of exposure that we get.

From year to year, we have had a hard time recruiting members. However, the members that we do recruit are dedicated and hard-working. Personally, I would rather have a small, dedicated group rather than a whole bunch of people doing nothing.

As to the comment that it's degrading to say "she's the first woman" to do this or that, certainly, to an extent, it is. However, in a sense, there is a need to push into the public view the fact that there are not that many women interested in engineering.

That's why I think that FIRST is so great, in the fact that it brings in both men and women early on in life to get them interested in engineering before stereotypes and society get in the way of such a fascinating career field.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Honestly, my view on this is the same as my view on most differentiation: I'll give the job to whoever's competant.

I love to see girls pursuing careers that have not historically been available or encouraged for them, if that's what the enjoy and want to do. But I'm not going to shove a woman into a career that she doesn't want, or tell her that she can't do something that she wants to do, just because she is female.

As many people probably know, I am the queen of defying the "can't be done's". I have done everything in my power never to take extra scholarships, etc, just because I am a woman. I don't believe in it. We are all humans. When a job needs to be done, then the best human for the job should take it (yes, I am discriminating against bears, dogs and other animals).

If the situation exists where you are being told that you are not allowed to do something because you are female, then obviously you need to fight the system. But I find that to be very infrequent these days. A woman in engineering is unexpected, but not out of the ordinary. People may be surprised, but most won't fight it.

So congratulations to all of the humans, male and female, who are pursuing careers in and enjoy doing engineering.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

[2 cents]

Here is my opinion. ( switching off from point to point)

In engineering, sciences, etc. the reality is, they aren't many females out there. Why? Many reasons ranging from lack of interest or lack of exposure. Is it honestly bad to praise the few that are?

I do understand what you meant when you said that you didn't need the boys to step aside or give you special priveledges to work, because that is how it is for me on my team as well. I didn't go off and complan about not being given the oppurtunity, I walked into the shop and I watched and learned.
But again, you must note that there ARE teams out there out of the thousands that seem to push the girls away. Sometimes the girls are just shunned from the actual build and design.

As for "special treatment" for the women in engineering. It could be possible that scholarships meant for female engineers are there to encourage MORE females to go into the fields. It shows that there is appreciation and support for more female involvement in these subjects.
But when it comes to situations where the female is given the scholarship in oppose to a male just because of her gender, then yes I see a point there.

Overall, just note that sometimes praising female engineers isn't more of a "OMG A GIRL IS MACHINING!?" but more of a "That's good that more females are starting to grow an interest in engineering".

[/2 cents]

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

We have a team of about 50 students and about 5 are girls. This is definitely an improvement over past years, with only 1-2 girls on the team.

With such a large team, we always operate with the intent of helping students find their specific interest (mechanical, electrical, software), and then dividing into sub teams. Students who want to be involved are always given something to do. If someone comes to one of the team leaders, we try to either find a task for them or involve them in whatever we are working on. Because we have so many people involved, it is often difficult for us to seek out the students aren't working on anything and give them tasks. The classroom we build in often gets divided into 2 parts-- the shop area where the robot is being manufactured and the class area where students are hanging around and talking-- and unfortunately, this is usually where the girls on our team are. Often, we get frustrated by students who come to meetings and do nothing, but we neglect the reasons for their hesitation and lack of participation.

My father is a mechanic and has had me working with power tools since I was old enough to hand a wrench to him when he asked. I've built robots from kits and out of legos since I was 10. I took apart a tv in our basement because I wanted to know how it worked. I took programming classes and joined the robotics team of my own volition. I've been commended on my work in the team, and the fact that I'll be studying engineering. (I've never felt patronized for this-- I've always felt like I've been supported and appreciated.) I'm going to go to U of M in the fall to study engineering-- and I probably would have done this without FIRST.

But, most of the girls on our team aren't at that point. They were recruited to our team as sisters of team members or as friends, and are on the team accidentally. They haven't used power tools before, they don't know what pneumatics are, they haven't seen a line of code in their lives. Because of this, they are afraid of working on the robot. They don't want to mess something up, they don't want to be made to feel stupid. However, we do try to encourage the girls--and all the rookies-- to take a more active role in the robot construction. I think we still have more work to do in this department though. We're going to try to set up some days to train students on machines ahead of time (we ran out of time in the preseason this year) and perhaps get a summer project going to get people more involved and experienced in construction.

In terms of special scholarships and admittance to colleges based on gender or other minority status, I think that it's pretty obvious that these programs are in place to encourage and HELP girls to make it into engineering. There is a social system in place that has discouraged the participation of women since before the girls currently on FIRST teams were born. Since elementary school when we first learned how to divide, math problems are geared towards boys. They ask us to calculate batting averages in baseball, not the average score at a gymnastics match. (I'm not saying that girls don't play baseball or guys don't participate in gymnastics. I'm just speaking to a cultural paradigm.) The average 8 year old girl thinks that she has a better chance of becoming the next Britney Spears than an engineer. (I almost wanted to say the next Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, Bill Gates, Steve Wozniak, etc. but then I realized, there aren't really any role models for girls in science and technology, are there?) FIRST is trying to fight this, the Society of Women Engineers is trying to fight this-- as are numerous groups dedicated to increasing the number of women engineers and scientists. I have applied for many of these scholarships, and there are many more that I am ineligible to apply for. But, those other scholarships are created by people with other interests and passions. I believe that those groups have the right to spend their money how they choose. All of their causes are worthy, as is the goal of increasing the number of women in the sciences.

Being a girl on the team has been tough at times, and I've fought a little discrimination, but for the most part, we all learn a lot and have tons of fun together. I know that the vast majority of our team comes back every year, and this includes the girls. We work together, we compete together, we get together and play laser tag and watch movies together. It's been a very good experience for all of us.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I am one of many girls on team 1293. At our regional I was asked many times how many girls our on our team, what we do, and how did we get many girls involved. Our females do a range of things yet I personally, and about half of the girls on our team, are involved in marketing and the pit designs. Yet many on our team also do work on the robot itself. I even had a hand at getting good and dirty working on our transmissions. In the first post it is mentioned that she feels descriminated against because she is female, but I find when people say things like that to me, I feel honored.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Ok i am responing to a lot of quotes so bear with me....

I probably would but if I found out it was solely to up the schools ratio of girls to boys or just because I am a girl I would be furious. I would take the scholarship no matter what and prove that girls do the exact same things as guys do. At school, there is an ultimite(sp) frisbee club in the winter and I make sure that they don't see me as some girl doing because I felt like signing up for it but because I love to play and I make sure that they pick me by running almost constantly. Other girl who do frisbee often get put down because they and not passed to and they think it is because they are girls but it is because they don't work hard.

that is excatly how I feel, the girls on our team are afriad of offending the guys so they won't do anything. I do not have that fear and I think that guys when they play around purposfully offend oneanother. For those reasons I have no problem snd saying things like "let me work on that too" or"Do you have anything for me to do?"

I agree - whoever is most capable to do a job should do it, regardless of wheter they are male or female.
When guys(the students) step aside to let the girls do something they almost seem mocking and make the job seem really bad or not worth doing, I would prefer that they do it with the girl or find a way to keep everyone busy

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Yes, that's entirely my point! Girls have to be initiated into engineering, and what may seem to be "not their thing" may actually be a layer of extreme interest covered up by a lack of self confidence. Ultimately, once they've gained confidence in their ideas... it won't matter that they're a girl, they'll give technical input no matter what.

As for getting design ideas, they need to own some kind of design aspect... even if its a pre-season thing or a small part of the robot. It takes ownership of something to finally "get it"...

It'll be a big push to get the ball rolling, but once it rolls... it flies. Try it.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I might be repeating things that have already been said, and I apologize for that, but just consider me supporting what was already said, but wanting to put it in my own words.


Just this year i considered this issue. Why is it that a team of all boys gets asked "do you not have any girls" but a team of all girls never get asked where the boys are, and instead are congratulated. I understand where people are coming from when they look at an all girls team and say that its good to see more females in these areas, but at the same time i realized that you're not making them feel better, but instead somewhat degrading them in the sense that it seems you didn't think they could do it in the first place. I think it isn't so much that girls are unable to do the tasks, as their interests are else-where because of just how society is structured and what girls are somewhat portrayed doing and not doing.

I'm the team manager of team 1510, as well as the co-founder. We had i believe 2-3 girls the first year, followed by 2-3 girls again, but this year we were happy to have 4-5 girls. Our team requires no experience to join the team, and age or sex are not an issue in any way. We teach the kids as much as we can prior to the season. I am also the mechanical leader, and i frankly give a job to whoever isn't doing anything. If something needs to be done, I asked the nearest person near me to do it, and if they can't, i explain it as best i can and sometimes end up doing it with them. I don't care about them being a girl, boy, freshman, senior or anything. We structured the team to pursue this view because in past years (and on my old team) we saw cases of girls not being able to touch the robot. Or as one team member commented (and in no way meant to be offensive) called them "trophy girls" or girls that they just take the competition to make it seem like they had girls on the team. We've also seen teams that don't let underclassmen touch the bot. So when my family and I founded the Westview Wildcats we made SURE that it would never happen on our team, and its been working great so far.

Back to the point (i think), i think its great that girls are being part of FIRST and doing what they're doing, but I always expected them to be able to do it, they just mostly choose not to. I just think that there shouldn't be so much emphasis on the fact that there are girls, so much as there should be emphasis on how the team works together as a whole, whether all guys, all girls, mixed, different age groups, different races, everything. Its important how you work together, not with who.

thats just my opinion, and hopefully i haven't said anything that offended someone. If i did, i didn't mean it :(

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Caio,

I like your post, and its true... at the end of the day its about working together as a team. I like that you're pulling anyone aside who's not busy and taking the time to teach them about what they have to do (its a sign of a good mentor). Yea, all FIRST team members are high schools students who may not understand entirely what they want/can/can't do, but at least they know FIRST is a good thing to be doing... no matter in what role, and it all ends up being some form of exposure.

So maybe thats all a team can do with their young women (a mentor responsiblity?). Make sure that the young women are getting some exposure to the techy stuff and get their chance to wrap their heads around any kind of design problem... even if its only an hour-long thing, sitting down and working on something together? Then, if they show more interest in technical aspects... encourage, help, and let them not fear mistakes?

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

There are a few girls on my team, but certainly not as many as I'd like there to be (IMHO, more diverse = better). I've tried to talk more of my female friends into joining, however, their other activities at school take up so much of their time that (to them) it would be impossible to join.

As far as who gets to touch the robot, none of the girls on my team (to the best of my knowledge) actually worked on the robot, however, it wasn't because we didn't let them, rather, they applied their talents elsewhere (PR).

The school sponsors always tell us that "This is your team, so do with it as you'd like. We're not here to run the show, just to provide adult supervision." They also encourage us to pretty much dig in; if theres something we're interested in, that its our responsibility to join in.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

As I mentioned before most of the girls do the artwork type things but a few, like 2 out of the 7 of us, do a lot of work on the robot itself. One did a lot of cutting things and wiring where the other was literaly "Miss Rules" she basically memorized the rule book and constantly inspected it. Even though I did focus on the artsy stuff and fundraising (I can't help it, I love talking to people) I did have a lot of fun getting down and dirty in the transmission grease (even though I still have a scar on my hand where I hit my self with the plyers trying to get the key out) And I was one of the few females who actually liked doing the "dirty" stuff. I just don't take out garbage.

^
|
|
That is basically how our team works, student run...most of the way.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Girls on FIRST teams. Girls in engineering. This is a very large conundrum that stems from the moment they're out of the womb.

Well, I'm going to assume most girls are brought up and raised by their parents as exactly that -- girls. When a girl is young she gets the girl toy in her mcdonalds happy meal, the barbie doll to dress and undress and style, the small makeup kits at Christmas for that "growing young girl" and other seemingly "girl" objects. Mothers will teach them the important parts of life in being a girl, which, being a mother, will include motherly things. For the girls that become girl scouts, they sell cookies door to door and earn patches for various things.

I'm also going to assume most boys are brought up and raised by their parents as exactly that -- boys. They get the boy toy in their mcdonalds happy meal, the hot wheels cars to race, crash, put on insane tracks and subtly learn physics, the soccer ball and baseball glove for Christmas for that "active young boy" that is growing up. Fathers will teach them the important parts of life for being a guy, and this will include how to pee standing up, leave the toilet seat up, play sports better and, being the father of the house, work on the car(s). For those boys that become cub/boy scouts, they will sell popcorn door to door like a business to rival mowing lawns, race pinewood derby cars (read: power tools and physics, with cars), and earn merit badges for all sorts of applicable skills (especially the multitudes of areas that are engineering in some way shape or fashion).



Yeah, you heard me right, I'm blaming YOUR parents. They brought you up well and how they thought they should -- as the typical girl. Why are there less females in engineering than males? Because since nearly the dawn of mankind, the seemingly "natural" structure has led to women having children, and men providing for them. The women nurse the babes while the men hunt with spears for a meaty dinner. And as technology advanced, and what "providing" implied, the roles of men have simply changed to fit technology. Women still needed to take care of the young the same, however, and if anything have gained responsibilities with technology advancing. Are there examples counter to this? Of course. I would simply ask you to ignore them however for the sake of general trends, because those are what drive differences into the bedrock of society.

Does this mean women in engineering, in FIRST, is wrong? No. Does it mean that many would consider it against the norm? Quite easily. And this has created peer pressure for people to not be weird, to know their place, common phrases in a way all throughout history. Peer pressure has been a social dynamic that has perpetuated the segregated responsibilities of men and women that you can date back to cavemen.

And with the advent of so MUCH technology in these latent decades and centuries, the social dynamics are softening and blurring the lines of segregated responsibilities. At some point along the way in the women's rights movement, it became a big issue that women were equal to men. They always were, and for some reason people decided without direct correlations equaling that women and men were not equal. Sure men have, on average, stronger and larger bodies. Men also can't bear children (except for Arnold, but he's different). Is it wrong for a girl to look towards engines or engineering and decide she likes them? No. But social trends throughout all of civilization have pointed women away from such tasks, creating a mode of the roles women should undertake. Who wouldn't think it wierd that someone take up activities not normally attributed to the stereotypes they fit? It's the very definition of weird. For the sake of not being weird, and living up to becoming their parents, and other such amazing values that we've always had as humans, we have developed separate structures for what is "normal" for a guy and what is "normal" for a girl.

Peer pressure is a dying fad however, and them gals are doing what their hearts want to do more and more these days. Is it wrong? Not at all. Is it out of the norm? Yes. To quite a few, this takes a certain courage that is worth congratulating, as much as a guy on the dance team would receive for taking up his own interests against easily present social values.

Of course, I always advocate girls entering engineering. I've got a better chance to not seem so weird by liking this stuff so much if more girls like it too :D

edit: I just realized how much of a tangent that was off of this thread. Sorry about that. I'll make a short extra paragraph to make up for it.

The trick is many girls I've known don't stick out their necks a bit, to ask for help and seem a fool, for the sake of learning. So instead of learning about drive trains and programming, they go back to organizing the toolboxes or creating the marketing display that allows them to be a part of the team without any possibility of guilt, shame, humiliation or mockery. It's a subtle peer pressure, as far as I'm concerned, and I've seen too much of it. Then again, guys were brought up making fun of each other to build each other up -- or at least I was, being the hyper competitive guy that I am.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I'm not entirely sure I agree with the statement I bolded. In some cases, yes, it takes some kind of kick to get a girl interested or get past her conception of engineering as a "guys' thing". But doesn't it also often take a kick to get some of the guys interested or get them past the conception of robotics as a "nerd thing"?

I've never felt that robotics was "not my thing"; then again, I joined the team when none of us really had a clue what we were doing since it was our rookie year, so maybe I'm not the greatest example. However, I really don't like the implication that all girls need to be "pushed" into engineering, when some just kind of fall into it on their own - or even better, seek it out as a chance to learn something new. That's why a few of the girls on our team joined. (I personally joined because I had nothing better to do at the time - it hooked me just the same way as it hooked the guys on my team at the same time.)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I am one of two girls on the our team. I'm the captain of the team and I usually don't like to show-off but if I'm speaking to someone about FIRST I will proudly say I'm the captain. Why? Cause it's like a big "haha" to the people that think girls can't do this or that. I totally totally totally hate it when some people think girls can't do something. And while on them team, I show them that girls can. I don't like the fundraising part [[though I have done it]], I like the hands-on stuffs. Doing construction rocks! It's so awesome! I love the jigsaw<3 Lovely, lovely tool =] I don't think the boys on the team give me a "special treatment" just cause I'm a girl, they seem me as just another team member. I like it that way.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I haven't had time to read this whole thread (packing for ATL!) but I am all for girls on FIRST teams. I am currently dating one (one year today) and she is the marketing lead for our team. Her business skills are absolutely supberb. I think a lot of people miss the fact that there is more than mechanical on a FIRST team. We have females on each of our CDTS and they do just as much if not more work than the guys. Like someone said earlier, it really doesn't matter who you are as long as you are a team player and get the work done.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I started out with Team 599 in their rookie year and spent 6 years mentoring them. In the rookie year, there were 3-5 female members. (My memory is a bit hazy.) Late in the build season, one of the members was asked to learn the electrical system from one of the male members. The male member showed her everything about the electrical system that he knew. When we got to competition, he was off at the drivers meeting while the team had to rip the entire robot apart and put it back together. She got the entire robot rewired in one hour. Nobody on our team raised an eyebrow at the fact that she was female. She went on to be the head of the electrical subsystem and taught the new people on subsystem about it each year.

As for me, nobody raised an eyebrow at the fact that I was female during all of my years of mentoring.

I also find that patronizing. However, as an engineer employed with a large company, I have a perspective that I did not see while scanning the other messages in this thread:

I have a good job. I got the job because I was the best qualified for what the company was looking for, not because I'm female. However, being young and female puts me in a highly desirable category for many companies, including my own. Companies want diversity based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc. This means, if there are layoffs, and if it came down to myself and a male engineer with equal abilities, I would be much more likely to keep my job.

In addition to job security (and or ability to get another job), there is a huge bonus to being female. I attend trade shows to look for new equipment for my group. When I attend, if I can look wide-eyed and naive, I tend to get much more information than my male counterparts. (Even if I don't look wide-eyed and naive, I tend to get more information than my male counterparts, come to think of it.)

While I agree that it's frustrating to hear "It's so great that you're in engineering because you're female", like with many other things in life, there are good things to be found. It's all a matter of how you want to twist things around in life. Start looking for the positive way to use your being female as an advantage.

Finally, for those of you that are saying you would be insulted if you were given a scholarship over a guy, do you also believe that affirmative action is a bad thing? Affirmative action is the same exact concept.

indieFan

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I've witnessed that too on co-ed teams, but not so much on my all-girls teams. The only time I didn't see it on coed teams was where they were all already a close knit group of friends or if they were all starting on the same footing (rookie team). For experienced teams, maybe mentors have to let girls (and everyone on the team for that matter) know that it's ok to as questions and make mistakes. Build a comfort zone... even the most slightly crass mentor can make somebody nervous about being wrong so they stay within their comfort zone.

Also, for me... it stopped mattering that I'm a girl a long time ago. I don't get any "wow you're a girl engineer" comments. The difference I see is, as I got older, people have a higher expectation of me. I am on the same playing field so I have to step up and know what I'm talking about. I don't win design arguements because I'm a girl; its logic, negotiation, and technical proof. But, it takes experience and confidence to discuss my ideas and points with a bunch of engineers standing in a circle trying to solve a problem... and that's what FIRST girls should be getting at some level (problem solving), just to see if they actually DO have an interest in technical stuff.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Our team has a pretty even ratio of girls and guys, probably not exactly 50:50 but I dunno the exact numbers.

Gender's never played a role in anything we do, there's no relevant differences between the female and male members of our team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I just wanna throw this out there. But who is it that decides that the ngineering world is a world for the boys? If you think about it, the majority is parents. How many of you girls had parents who bought you a tool set when you were 5? had fathers who let you help on projects around the house? Now how many of you had parents who bought you barbies and dresses?

I am not saying that girls shouldn't have dresses but if you look at it, it is how people are brought up. Who is to say boys and girls think differently? Boys and girls have different natural instincts, which well obviously I guess would make them think differently, but they have different problem solving skills becuase that is how they are brought up. What girls had parents who emphasized math science,and shop class? Now what guys had parents who emphasized having nice clothes and looking pretty?

I think that in 50 years there will be many many more girls in the fields becuase of our generation. We are all learning that girls should have the smae chance as guys, so when we have children we won't be as seperative of their fields of interest.

My 2 cents....
-John

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

What I meant was that it seems like you are saying that the only way to get girls involved is to initiate them force them to work on the robot.

Sorry for the confusion.

We do something similar to this but is more of a workshop in every aspect of the team where we force everyone to try each part. Everyone has to put together a scrapbook section for themselves, try some web design, wire some devices, and do actual work on last years robot.

Maybe the girls you attract to robotics are very shy, but the two that now work on our robot came because they wanted to work on a robot, not make designs or marketing assets for a team.
Now with some girls, and many boys on our team, they are intimidated by the prospect of building and would rather work elsewhere in scrapbooking or design. In that case initiation does help, but with the other two girls on our team, working with their hands on the robot isn't fun to them. They joined because their brothers were on the team and found what they do now to be more rewarding than robot work. This is the same with six other boys who do non-robot work as well.

While making them work on a robot might seem more a part of FIRST, they don't find that as fun as the work they do now that keeps their hands quite full.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

This is an ongoing debate....and probably off topic here...but when psychologists study the nature/nurture issue scientifically, the findings tend to show that there is a lot of built in behavior--the genetic differences are substantial. But they also show that there is an environmental effect--how you are brought up will affect later behavior.

So don't be surprised that most girls are not naturally inclined to do "boy stuff" like building robots....but also do what you can to encourage and help those that you can get interested in it! because they definitely can do technology. Ask my wife :)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

My team has always had a small number of girls. This year we had 3, out of an 11 person team. We don't have any discrimination, we all hang out together, prank each other, etc. You don't "let them do a project all by themselves" because we all work on the same project. Guess 973 is lucky this way.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

As a female on a FIRST team I must say my experience has been nothing but wonderful... because I made it that way.

FIRST, as I've seen it, has so many wonderful opportunities for young women. The problem is that they don't always want to reach for those opportunities. I will say that FIRST is maybe a place where the girls may face a greater challenge, but those sorts of challenges appear for everyone in different ways, and all that one can do is to try and overcome them.

I honestly came onto my robotics team for the business aspect, and would argue that you DON'T need to come on knowing what you're doing. I had no idea what a phillips head screwdriver was. I was there to make pretty fliers, and I still LOVE doing that. I also love that there are times when I come home and my mom is just like "don't you dare come into the house until I get everything covered because you are filthy." But I was there to learn, and I learned fast and I paid attention, and this year I was one of the core group of students who built our robot. Just like anyone, young man or woman new to the team, I had to not be afraid to ask questions. And yes, there were times when I looked ridiculous not knowing what something was, but that wasn't anything to do with me having ovaries or whatnot, it was just simply as a person who didn't know what they were doing.

Basically, I think the FIRST experience for young women is what you make of it. Yes, there will be guys who decide they have to supervise closely and then take over everything you do, but there are all sorts of girls who think that guys can't do certain things well, and that's the way our society will probably be for quite some time. My experience in FIRST has been nothing short of amazing, and I'm really excited to continue with it for the rest of my life.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

With our team I am the only girl whos been trying for now 3 years to get girls to join the team.I tried to explain it to them that u dont have to work with the tools if u dont want to.also tried to tell them theres other things to do like tshirt designs and pins and website designing. Its not easy to get girls to join.Tried pictures and they ended up in little pieces in the trash and me getting laughed at it wasnt fun.next time everythings going to be laminated so it cant be ripped up.
Krista

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

While its always nice to have other girls on the team, sometimes it's worse to have people who don't want to be there. For awhile, on my team I was the only girl who showed up consistantly to every meeting. My senior year as captain, I made sure everyone knew when meetings were and tried to keep the group (boys and girls) on the same page. There was another girl who organized a smaller group of girls to compete at a lego competition. That was great, I got to connect with some of the girls and encourage them to stick it out for the FRC build season. Interest was sparked, but still on 2/4 of the trips I was the only girl to travel. Its hard, and it makes you want to go and force other girls to come and share this great experience you've been having... but other people have other priorities. The year after I graduated, our high school started an all-girls FRC team, which sort of evolved out of the all girls Lego team. Though the forming of the team had some controversy, the team is still competing 3 years later. I go back and help them, and just basically be friends with them, and tell them about college. I let one come visit me this past fall during their college search. I'm happy that they're into this competition and are liking it. I've had parents tell me I'm a great role model for their daughters, because I was a female leader. It's a great feeling to hear something that. I recently looked on facebook, because a lot of the girls I have mentored graduated this year... almost all of them are going to school as engineering and technology majors. I'm thrilled.

Krista, my advice to you is to not get hung up on these girls who don't respect you and rip up your pictures. Enjoy what you are doing, and maybe some girls will see what a great time your having, and the great things you are doing and will want to join the team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Last year we had our first girl on the team in 3 years. At first everyone was really kind of unsure of how it would play out, but after the first week, she was showing us up for gosh sakes. She proved that she could definitely be a very strong addition to our team, and seeing that she was only a freshman, it really was amazing that she knew so much When we finally gave the whole "girl" scene a chance, it really paid off, and now everyone on the team is much more open to the female crowd, and having other female teammates. (Oh, BTW there are going to be around 10 MORE girls on the team for the 2008 season, but if they are like the girl we have now, they should fit right in with no problem.) :)

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

I think there is definitely a stigma on our team about girls, but it's getting better. A girl I know spent three years on the multimedia team (often where girls get pushed) and then her fourth as a machinist/safety captain. She had a pretty strong personality, and I think that other girls haven't had the guts to just stand up and say, "I want to do this!"
Bottom line: girls shouldn't have to work any harder to do what they want. That one's a fault of the guys and the attitudes. A lot of them are unintentional and subconscious. It is harder to accept a girl as "just one of the guys," so to speak.
On the other hand, there's a stigma amongst girls too. I really don't want to believe that girls are "naturally" disinclined toward science, technology, machining, or robots. However, I think if you did a survey, many more girls would call this kind of thing boring, stupid, uninteresting, or (in the case of manual work) dirty. Why is this? Society, women included, has decided that women don't like this kind of thing.
Until we stop talking about "woman engineers" they will always be a novelty. By that I mean that they can't be a spectacle, a statistic, or a quota. They need to do this because they want to, and we (as a whole, women and men) need to accept them because of their skills and enthusiasm, not their gender.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Personally I like having girls on the team. They help get things going more often than not... What I don't like is when they are wigging out because they got their hands dirty. :yikes: I am constantly AMAZED by what the girls can get done. I do not mean that in a way that girls are lower but I just haven't seen many do what the girls in FIRST do. I would like to thank all the girls who are on all the teams I have been on, 830, 1015, 1502, and 1549, and all the teams I have been up against or with. You all are the greatest people I have had the pleasure of meeting.

Back on topic though, I think they can do anything and everything they put their mind to. If they want to work on the robot, great, if they want to work on the field, great, if they want to just work with paper, great! It all helps.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

When I joined the ÜberBots in the fall of 2005, there were three other girls on the team (of 24 students total). No one really discriminated against us. One of the girls worked a lot with the mechanical side of the robot, one was the head of spirit, one didn't spend a lot of time at robotics, and I was involved with team/physical organization. For competitions, I was a coach and one of them was a driver. That type of diversity in a small portion our team seemed to be proportional to what you would see if you sampled four other people from the whole team.

However, the female population on our team has grown. We have about 10-12 girls on a team of 35-40 this year, and a similar situation last year with slightly smaller numbers for each part. As I see more girls joining the team, I hear them saying things like "I can't help build the robot because I don't know anything about tools. I'm a girl, remember?" It's really disheartening to hear things like this.

At the same time, the one freshman girl on the team last year who did take a big part in the mechanical design of our robot was congratulated for what she did, since "not enough girls are involved in robotics and engineering fields". People commented on the fact that I am the team president this year because "we don't many women in leadership positions". This was upsetting to me, because it seems as if we only got special attention because we were girls.

In some sense, I feel as if the same kind of inherent prejudices against women are still an underlying factor in our judgment in Western society. Since women were once shunned from the kind of positions we can find ourselves in now, we haven't fully "gained our ground back", and are still more rare than men in the same type of positions. This smaller concentration is what causes girls to be singled out, often unfairly.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Ellen,
you may still be a part of the generation where women are lagging behind in the fields of science, engineering, and technology. What you say is true from one perspective. From another, the winds of change are forming because there are increasing numbers of girls on the robotics teams and increasing numbers of women entering into satisfying careers in these areas. In the broad scheme of things, FIRST is not very old and yet advancements in many areas are being achieved each year. In the next 5, 10, 15 years, it won't be like it is now. We're just not quite there yet but it is changing.

If you are unhappy with the fact that the attention comes only because you are girls, come up with a plan to re-direct that. Show the growth, the improvement, the advances being made in the areas of science, engineering, technology regarding the role of women. Talk about how FIRST is helping create that culture change so that girls don't have to be singled out for any reason other than they are successful members of a FIRST team.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

This applies to me as well. I do not plan on becoming an engineer when i graduate. In fact, I want to be an artist.
Also, I'm the only girl on my team, and the Vice President.

I don't think that when people are "surprised" that you've put a robot together, they are trying to be insulting.
I would take it as a compliment.

Engineering has, traditionally, been male dominated. and that's a simple fact. People are very excited that so many girls are involved with FIRST, and they encourage more girls to join every year. they may be surprised because very few girls know their way around a robot, and are admiring your skills.

Things are slowly turning around. But, I know that I am treated with respect by my team because I came into the program last year knowing absolutely nothing about engineering. Now I at least know what the Numatics do. :D

Just keep in mind that FIRST really does appreciate girls who join the program.

~Casey

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

There are a few other girls on Shark Attack 744, but they mainly do survey or programming. Since the seniors of 07 graduated, I am the only girl that drives and does a lot of mechanical stuff. I think it is totally awesome because the guys on my team treat me the same. I work on the robot with them. When we have "tube fights", "poof ball dogeball", and games of ping pong, they are not going to treat me any differently then the rest of the guys. In fact, they have no problem pegging the ball at me. LOL. It's sorta hard to write this as how they guys and the girls specifically try to work together, because we never really think about it. It just comes natural. We are one team...and it's pretty cool.

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

On team 1678, we have three girls, and one of them is set to be the head mechanical person for this coming season. I'd have to say, that I'm quite glad when I see a girl who can break out of the stereo-types and build a robot that works, as It shows that things are moving, and peoples views are changing, if slowly, and more importantly, that there are women entering into engineering.

Our other two women on the team are our elected secretaries, and they're doing a fine job helping us corroborate everything between club leaders and everyone else on the team.

I, myself do the website, and at present thats a one man(in this case) undertaking, so yeah. I'd like very much to see women in all parts of the process, because irrelevant of what gender, skin color, creed or otherwise you could be classified into, your a person, and your useful. The main task at hand is getting people to join the club, and finding out what they're useful with, and using that.

Just my dime on things...

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

Well, I believe I can safely say that out of the two teams I've been on, I am the only girl who loves to live in the machine shop. :D
Most of the girls spring for spirit team, but it looks like I might have some feminine company in the shop next year. Strangely enough, I'm kinda disappointed. Part of me loves being the only girl in the machine shop, but the rational part says the more the merrier, we need more girls doing the technical aspect.

BTW, I think somebody said that the girls on their team "wig out" when they get their hands dirty. Let me just say that when I wash up for dinner, the sink turns a delightful shade of greasy grey/black. :D

Re: Girls on FIRST teams
 

OK - so I haven’t posted in years, but I come back to read occasionally...

I did FIRST in high school and college; I was even an engineering major briefly.

One thing you have to understand is that most of these stereotypes you see now will never change and never go away. Even when someone says they will, or they treat you the same, somewhere in the back of their mind the thought will persist.

The only way you will get past it is to work hard and be the best at whatever you do, let your product speak for you so they have nothing to question. Don’t whine. Never complain. Above all do NOT boast about it.

That is my advice to you; take it for what it is worth.

"The old lady accountant"