Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Every year there seems to be a few really good teams that for whatever reason manage to slip through the cracks in scouting and not make the finals.

So I’m posing the question to people, who do you think were the best teams in your division to not make the finals?

I watched every match on the Newton field and the ones that come to my mind in no particular order are.

2108/1885 To me watching the Newton finals there seemed to be room for one or two more good rampers to help with bonus points and these guys could all be considered good candidates to help out an alliance.

271 These guys were highly underrated; I thought they had a mean drive train, and a reliable and consistent tube scorer. There was one match on Newton that I saw them stop playing defense, then put up 4-5 tubes in the last 40 seconds of the match.

So who do you think were the best teams in your division to not make the finals?

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

My list

125
501
696
573

I'm sure I'm missing a ton but those are the only ones I can think of right now.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

A number of excellent teams didn't see elimination action in Galileo. 103, 237, 1251, 1680, 1730 and many others each were only watching Saturday afternoon's action.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

1089 in Newton. They had an easy to climb ramp, and could easily put up 7-9 ringers undefended (3-4 defended probably). After Friday's qualification matches, they were 5-0, but on Saturday morning they lost 2 consecutive matches (motor for mast blew out in first match, and their second match was coming up almost right away, so they didn't have time to fix the motor). After the second loss, they dropped out of the top 8, but fixed their motor and were running again.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I have to say my own team 668... We finished friday 4-1 and were putting up 4-6 ringers each match. Friday night the other teams wne thome and studied their scouting sheets and must hvae realized we were a threat and double teamed us both of our matches so we only could put up two in each. It really surprised us that we weren't picked, and a couple teams actually told us they were surprised as well....

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Thanks for mentioning us...we were very disappointed that we did not get picked for finals. According to one teams scouting data we had the 3rd highest tube average in archimedes...right behind 254 and 233. Just some bad luck with partners put us too low in the rankings to climb back up i guess.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

We were extremely surprised that you weren't picked. You were very high on our list (just below 987 I believe). Quite frankly, we were surprised 987 didn't get picked sooner.

One thing I noticed for Newton picking was that very few teams chose a ramp bot for their first round pick, which was surprising. I guess teams assumed that rings would make the difference.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

heh thanks for putting us up there. Just as other teams would say, we had the potential to get there, its just that things didn't fall in our favor. It was a great learning experience though.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

While our robot functioned wonderfully 2 out of the 7 matches, the other 5 had techincal problems for us, disconnected wires, loose pwm's uncharged battery etc. I guess in the end it was noones fault but our own, there's always next year

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I was actually really surprised when I heard that 1114 didn't make it to einstein. I thought they would be going for sure. Can anybody tell me what actually happened with them because I never actually heard the story. How far did they get?

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

358 and 1089 were both excellent ringers, but it turned out that Newton was much deeper than anybody expected.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

48 ripped their arm off...

http://www.soap.circuitrunners.com/2.../cur_sf1m3.wmv

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I was shocked that 180 didn't get picked. Some of the best ramps that I've seen this year, and also able to cap multiple tubes in a match. Another shocker for me was 1251..

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

In archimedes:

125 (major shocker)
1086
302
1912

There's at least 4 more that I can't think of off the top of my head

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I must say that I was a little surprised that we 1683 didn't get a chance to play in eliminations. We were putting up 4 to 5 ringers per match with defense on us and we played some really killer defense too. I would have loved to have seen 1912 in there too, representing from the Bayou. O well, there is always next year

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

That was kind of the boat we got stuck in on 340. In the matches we didn't have technical issues we were 4-0-1. A loose wire on the pneumatic, a dead transmission, and the loss of a tread knocked us out of our only three losses.

If you're going to list 2108, 2182 was also an excellent ramp bot. They had a low scorer, which in my mind is still better than none, and a very quick and efficient ramp. 1885 was definitely my major shock though. They were all over with their ramps and scored pretty well, too.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

125
716
180

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

1251. I think they would have been a steal for our alliance, but they couldn't climb our ramps anyway (and we weren't the ones picking).

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Our scouts had these robots pegged for ringers:

1086
238
329
935
342
125
904
1912
354
1403
1323
192
1029
302

It was a tough round for sure.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Team 86 in Curie. Their ramp are one of the most reliable I've seen all season and their good at defense.

:]

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

88 in all the matches I saw was consistantly able to score ringers. I was pretty surprised they weren't picked. Also 2169 had great ramps and was a good defensive bot. I was surprised by them not being picked too.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

From Galileo: 1730, 229, and 45 I'm also surprised that 461 wasn't drafted. If I remeber correctly, they scored pretty well and had pretty good ramps.
From Curie: I was kind of surprised that 1114, 469, and 1523 didn't make it to the finals, although that was a mechanical problem. I think, that if 1114 would have been able to score, they definitely would have made it. I also was a little surprised that some alliances went with three scorers and no ramp bot. If more ramp bots were drafted I would have expected to see 86, 545, and 180. 545 was an easy one to climb, always had you at 12", unless you weren't all the way up the ramp, and they could play some good defense, when you needed them to. I also was surprised that 343 wasn't chosen; their drive was fast, and they could play good defense, believe it or not, and they could score too. I also think that 527 should have at least been drafted; they had a strong drive and could score under defense with their "pushing" mechanism.
Just my opinion.:D

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

180 in Curie - nice ramps, great team. Very surprised.

375 in Newton - they won the Championship Auton award, for gosh sakes! Great ringer scoring, and thisclose to winning all three of their prior regionals.

and us, of course!! :p (Just kidding. I actually was really surprised, but not as much as with the first two)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Bharat,

Thanks for the compliment. The most we put up in a qualification round at the championships was 6. I am supposing that teams based their alliance selections on Saturday's performance, weren't interested in having another rampbot/scoring hybrid, had better teams than us in mind, or we just REALLY snuck under the radar. We honestly had only one team come to us to check to see if we were working (even though we had a "we fixed the arm" sign on our machine), but I suppose that's what happens when you blow a motor before the last two near back-to-back matches.

Of course, after the fact, we had about four teams say "Oh man, you guys didn't get picked?!".

The worst part about it, though, was that being seated relatively high, we were a back-up bot, and couldn't even finish packing to get to watch the divisional rounds. We barely made it back in time to watch the Einstein rounds.

Thems the breaks, though! :)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

*cough* That's Aditya.. *cough*

Anyway, thanks for the compliment Aditya & Joey!
I was admittedly VERY shocked, but look out for us in off-season! ~__^

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

The fact that is says "I am Bharat Nain" under my username probably isnt helping. :rolleyes:

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

yes we had bad pairing too... otherwise we woulda been picking no problem.. it does feel nice that we beat the national champions (190wpi) every match we were against them at our regional...

BTW i went to go play "politics" with 247 DA BEARS and they asked for $20 to consider us... Wuts up with that?? in fact if they had picked us they may of actually won a round in the newton division...

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I agree with those who pointed out 668. The Apes Of Wrath were just below our final partners on our scouting sheets, and I'm surprised they didn't make it to eliminations. They worked extremely well with us in the one match we had with them, they had no problems getting on our ramps, and we got 140 points.
I doubt I'd change our alliance selection (would you in our situation?), but I wonder why they didn't get picked.
It's always tough to scout effectively, and I feel that our exceptional scouting this year led directly to us being so effective in the eliminations. It's much tougher to scout with a small team, and the nonrandom match pairings don't represent teams well enough to go by rankings (987 especially comes to mind).

Overall, the teams that didn't make eliminations should still be very proud, especially if they are mentioned in this thread. Someone knew about you, and it's not necessarily your fault in this game that you weren't in a picking situation.
Hope to see you all next year. Maybe you'll be recognized more easily.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Team 103 not making finals made me stop. I watched their matches and I saw their division. They really deserved to get picked. I am confident in saying that I could put together a great alliance with the teams not picked in Galileo that could have possibly even made it onto Einstein.

Team 75 was another surprise. We had the pleasure of working with them in NJ and I have heard that they got even beastlier after that.

Don't worry guys... we still have Monty. :)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

We were also surprised that we didn't make the finals. We could consistently score 4-5 when no being heavily defended. When we were paired with 233 during qualifying matchings and were able to get the second highest score of the entire championship which was 288. The highest(that I know of) being 290. If I remember correctly we each scored around 6(not sure exactly).

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Gotta quote that one. I was shocked (and rather disappointed also) that 180 didn't get drafted. Great bot (and a great team), was just a victim to the funky match selection routine, and just had bad qualification matches.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

501 was part of the the alliance of 291pts (would of been 316 but something was hanging off and we only got a 30 and a 15pt bonus and we got a 10pt for throwing a ringer before the match started)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I was suprised our team, 648, wasn't selected. The person sitting next to me could probably describe my face after the last team was selected on Curie. But then again, we didn't perform well and we definitely weren't able to impress. How could anyone with 2 defensive robots aimed at them at all times? Unless you're 330 or 1114, of course.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Let's shift this thread away from talking about how upset you are that your team didn't get picked. Yes, you can say you got worked by alliance pairings, but at the end of the day you weren't strong enough to carry the alliance. Learn from it and improve yourself for next year. Whining about it and placing the blame somewhere else isn't going to make a difference.

I think teams 103, 75, and 1251 were three very good teams who probably deserved to play a few more rounds on Saturday afternoon. Congrats to all three for their accomplishments this year, and better luck next season.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Nice, Tom. You caught me. I told myself I wouldn't do that anymore since I bragged about my team so much before and then I was completely wrong. I didn't really notice any exceptional teams on Curie that didn't get selected. However, 16 could score a ton of tubes on their own and didn't get selected, 357 had an awesome lift design and didn't get selected (probably the biggest overlooking done). There were also teams that I was surprised to see go or go so early. 910 was one of them, not that they didn't deserve to go, but that I wasn't really impressed, per se, with their robot. But, guess what, they played well and made it to Einstein, good job.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Thank you both for your kind words. We were disappointed to miss out but we were very pleased that our close neighbors (2168) were drafted and carried local pride into the Newton semi-finals.

Thank you allies, for your strong support in our Regional and World Championship matches. Thank you opponents, for making the victories accomplishments worth savoring.

The 1885 Robocats purple team will be back next year working harder, making more friends, and mixing it up on the fields again. Just look for the purple shirts and come chat us up. We think you will like what you see.

Thanks again, Chris & GRaduns and everyone who gave us similar encouragement offline.

Blake

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

229 and 45 were both chosen. We had 45 as our 1st pick for tube scorer and we had 229 on our list high up aswell. 1730 was on there for a tube scorer and im surprised they didnt get picked.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

but you see...they didnt make it to the finals mat...haha

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I was in 180's pit when they found out they weren't picked. It was a shock--they certainly came with a primo ramp design, one perfect for last-second dashes back to the home zone.

And yes, 1251 should have made the big show. Those folks have a world-class robot (don't ask me how I know :rolleyes: ), one I hope to see plenty of during the off-season. (Just, uh, not on the other side of the glass.)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

From Curie 180 was a suprise. We had the pleasure to play with them the final qualification match. They scored 3 (I think) ringers and we were able to climb thier huge ramps for 30 pts. They were also great alliance partners. I don't remember exactly our list of teams for picking, but if it wasn't for 48 dropping so far (I was very surprised, yet very happy that they did) there was a good chance we would have picked them.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Thanks for the kind words Billfred (and the others that have mentioned us in this thread). However, in FIRST as in life, you must perform and earn your way. We did not do that.:(

That said, we will be looking at our controls and processes and develop a plan to improve ourselves and hopefully get us to the next level.

Congrats to all teams for a successful season.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I was walking back to the stands for finals and one of the members from team 1730 told me they didn't even get drafted. That was mind numbing. They were very good scorers and had one of the best autonomous modes I saw this year. Had they been paired with 330 and 910, they could have very welled scored 3 in a row on the middle in auto.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Maybe, in the Georgia Dome, we need one of those systems that let's game show audience members interact with contestants by voting on the answers to multiple choice questions (such as "Which of the remaining 45 teams should our alliance draft?").


:)

Blake

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Well Team 70, More Martians did not make the picks in Galileo after a rather lackluster showing.:o We had an awesome year in 2006. This season we placed 3rd at GLR, Buckeye and West Michigan by making it into the semis at each event. We scored well but just did not impress anyone this year. Must try harder next year.

We were happy to see other Michigan teams in Galileo such as Frog Force 503, Huskies 65, Thunder Chickens 217, Pheonix 703 make it into the final rounds at this years Championship Event. They represented Michigan well!:D

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

NO WAY! I did the same thing, about 45 minutes before alliance selections I went to talk to the Da Bears and I thought we had an understanding. We knew that they were planning on making 1038 their first round pick, but because of our ability to score consistently we believed that we'd be their second pick. Also I knew that 1038 and our team had a mutual desire to work together at the competition. The way I understood it was that if after talking to their drivers they believed that we could climb their ramps (they had never heard of meccanum wheels and were kinda uncertain) we would be their second round pick. Now I see I was wrong, I could sure go for an explanation right about now. ps They never asked us for money.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

well, going back to the lists, in curie:

16
34
86
180
343
357
716

i could probably think of more. there were lots of amazing robots in curie

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Out of Curie - 343, 141, 648, 16

I was extremely surprised when i learned 103 wasn't picked, especially since my team (1155) lost to them in jersey.
I was also surprised by the draft order in Curie, some teams definitely were steals (i expected 234 and 469 to be drafted much earlier. I was also hoping for a 330-1114 alliance, but oh well)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

We played with you in that match too, and we scored 5 ringers. And you did pick our opponents from that match.

That is a not so subtle intro into who I think was one of the better teams left out of finals: Us. Aside from the 2 matches where we were crippled by mechanical problems, we scored five rings in four matches and four rings in one. I understand that we are a relatively unknown team, and that our robot wasn't visibly impressive (okay, it looks kind of stupid, see these pics http://www.flickr.com/photos/66218484@N00/406328583/ ), but still, we were scoring more than other offensive bots that were selected. Someone had to recognize us, as after the third match we had at least one defensive bot on us for the majority of the time.

This might all seem like I am being bitter (and I am, a little), but the reception we got from other teams was a little insulting. The question I was asked most often was why we had pink pool noodles on the top of our robot. One scout asked me the following question, verbatim: "So why do you have omniwheels? Could you not afford mecs?". The rest of the conversation went like this, the kid sneering at me, asking why we used part x instead of part y, all the time implying that our robot looked terrible and was obviously not professionally made. Our drivers were ignored when they tried to strategize with our alliance members.

So, just to say it: Stop judging based on appearances. It shouldn't have to be said, but the reaction our robot got was proof of this. Our robot was built mostly out of spare parts lying around our shop, and it shows, but people didn't have to be as dismissive as they were about our robot. I don't like being this unhumble or unsubtle, but the reaction we got at championships was disappointing to say the least.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

haha i was just disappointed in their unprofessionality... we were top seed at our regional (GSR) and i listened and talked to all the teams that wanted a chance. I never shunned or acted immature and my dad happened to be walking by and heard the money comment.. it was funny..

(granted i have my immature moments elsewhere...)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I have to agree with you here Aroon... especially Team 75. I was very shocked to hear they did not do as good as I thought. They were awesome on Thursday during practice...

And Team 103... they are an amazing robot and team. For them to not go on.. I was in complete shock as well.

I guess the championships bring out big shockers!!!!

As per Newton, other teams on my list:
75
271
358
316

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Your robot and drivers were just amazing in that match. Delphi ELITE(48) was playing some tough defense on us, but your team(1418) and SPAM(180) really came through to get the win. Though I wasn't in on everything that went on in our selection process, I do know that you were definitely in our sights.I think your robot looks great, it certainly impressed me, especially when I saw it stuffing all those rings on the rack! Your team should be very proud!

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Thanks for the compliment. I was a little disappointed when we were not picked.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

yeah, we were dissapointed to. it was the first time in MiM history that we didn't get picked or did the picking.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Yeah you guys had a great robot and we would've loved to work with you, now where is my explanation Bears?

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

To go along with what John Wanninger said, you guys were awsome that match and you were on the list of teams to be picked. We did feel that we wanted a defensive ramp as the third alliance partner to compliment two scorers. When 48, who we thought was the best defensive robot in the division, slipped to us, we had to take them.

Another team that I remember watching that didn't get picked was 86. I thought they were one of the best defenders there and had a nearly flawless ramp.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Bud, they don't owe you an explination. You were on their list, be glad of that. They have the right to pick whoever they want. They have to talk to a few teams, I know 65 talked to us, even though at the end, we were only 4th on their list. So be happy you made a list, and better luck next year

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Ah well, I'm glad to see everyone else was as shocked at we were at 180. We had been picked so many years in a row that the concept of "marketing" really slipped all of our minds :-/. Having local 233 and 179 and 1902 all go to Einstein made up for it though.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Wait, you were in our division?

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

No, we were in Galileo, that doesn't change the fact that they don't have any obligation to you if they choose to go with another team.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

I know we're off that topic, I'm confused how you could have an understanding with a team in another division:confused:

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Both 1504 and 65 were in Galileo

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Not to sound vain or anything, but I was surprised when we, 234, didn't make it into Einstein. We scored 5-7 ringers many rounds, it really came down to qualification alliance partners that didn't work well. By the end of qualifications, we were seede 45th. Though we got into the q. finals of Curie, I thought that we were jipped by the alliance algorithm.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Time to rein in this thread again. I'll preface this by saying that I haven't been to Championships since 2000 & 2001, which includes not going this year.

This thread was not intended to be a bitter dump for teams that did not like the way alliance selections went. There are a few things to keep in mind here:

• A team has every right to rank and pick teams for their alliance the way they choose
• If you didn't have fun because of not being picked or not making it further, I hope you can get past this quickly in order to truly enjoy the build season and competition experience. I watched all four webcasts (at once) on Saturday and found the matches exciting, yet I can only imagine the energy in the rest of the venue.
• Both times I went to the Championship, my team was not picked to be on an alliance, but I found the event to be exhilarating.
• Remember the regionals? Even if you were not in the elimination rounds there, you have had about 14-17 matches at least this season with your creation out on the field performing. You can have even more matches with a higher probability of elimination play if you to one of the many off-season events.
• Finally, there are 86 teams in a division with ~61 of them being automatic qualifiers from recent achievements. There are only 24 teams per division that get to play in finals alliances, so let's 86 the bitterness.
• EDIT: Just to reemphasize a FIRST mantra: It ain't about no robots doin' nothin'... It's about what happens to the people along the way.

If you find teams in your scouting top ten in any categories that didn't get picked, that would be a good subject for a post here. Please refrain from the second guessing of your own absence in the tournament :).

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

yeah, and 294 should've won the whole thing....

3 robots from each division make it to Einstein, no team is guaranteed, especially in the division you were in.

You did have an amazing robot.... but so did 330, 469, 1114, 910, 67, 1270, 1523, and many many others that I am too tired to name.

There are no guarantees.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

He is right. If a team wants to tell you he reasons they didnt pick you, then they may. Its not obligatory of them to do so. We talked to 1504 all competition and watched them improve their robot after every match and they kept moving up our pick list. We didnt have them high on our list because we had 503 as the number one spot because they could ramp/score consistantly. I can give the explanation because we are not ashamed of our picks. Im not saying the Bears are ashamed but they dont NEED to give you an explanation because it was THEIR decision. Thats what FIRST is, it is the ability to choose your fate. If you are in the Top 8 seeds then you reserve the right to do what you please. I loved you guys in GLR and we had fun, but dont be upset if you did not get chosen.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Thanks to everyone who mentioned 1251 but we only can blame ourselves for our proformance. Other notables on Galileo were 70,237,1504 and my favorite rookies 2237. Besides that I do not know how 180 didn't get picked just for there ramps alone especially the way I saw most of the divisions go which was good ramps last and some were picking ramps only 180 also had a pretty good arm to go along with what I considered the best ramps of the year. Thats just thoughts good job to everyone just for getting the robot done and making it to championships. As far 1251 is concerned were not compliaing a gold, a silver, and two design awards is nothing to complain about.

-Drew

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

My bad, I was thinking of 68.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

i don't want to sound arrogant but, 540 had a pretty high scoring average and won the nasa/vcu regionals. But we were in Galileo so there was some pretty tough competition

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

please refer to other thread about CUrie problem and what happened, there is a long discussion going on there, and in my opinion the most controversary i my 5 years

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

aint that the truth.

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Let me also say thanks to all of you that posted about SPAM.

I want to congratulate Krunch and Voltage for making it to their division finals too. Florida teams performed well in Atlanta! (Please forgive me if I left any other FL teams out - it is all still a little of a blur right now)

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Rightly said Drew! I think it's a tribute to all the teams, that there are so many worthy of filling the elim's slots than there are slots available.
It makes the competition. We love it, and we'll be back for more next year.

Eric

Re: Best Teams to Be Left out of the Finals
 

Hi, I am from team 247 and would like to clarify things. First off, we are sorry to any teams that were under the assumption that we were going to pick you. It is true we were talking with team 1038, but do not assume that we were picking them just because thay were in our pit with us. Also, I would like to make this perfectly clear WE DID NOT TELL ANY TEAM OR PERSON THAT WE WOULD PICK THEM IF THEY GAVE US 20 DOLLARS.

What happend was:

We were talking to a lot of teams at the same time. One of the teams (i dont remember what one) jokingly asked us that if they gave us 20 dollars, would we pick them. We said, "No", because it is wrong, not condoned by FIRST, and certainly not the gracious professionalism that Team 247 works by. I hope this clears things up.