Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Greetings all,

Thanks to the efforts of several teams, Sundial put in an appearance at a large number of regionals in 2007. As FIRST and 4FX did not provide a data link to the scoring system until much later in the season, these teams had to provide a lot of manpower for data entry and monitoring the system, and I'd like to thank them for that.

At the Championship, with FIRST and NASA's help, Sundial was set up with connections to the four divisional scoring computers and was able to run in fully automatic mode as well as provide match results and standings. As the set-up crews were only able to get into the Georgia Dome on Monday, the NASA crew didn't have time to work on troubleshooting the wireless network in the pits until mid-day Thursday. They got everything working by Thursday afternoon, and Sundial worked fairly well for the rest of Thursday, although NASA's access points kept getting overpowered by the numerous other APs in the pits. On Friday morning, NASA swapped out the APs for ones with high-gain antennas, and this worked well for the rest of the day. Unfortunately, on Saturday, the APs were being hit with a Denial-of-Service attack, probably originating from an infected computer that hadn't received any recent security updates. Every time this happened, the teams in the pits would lose connectivity to Sundial until someone went around and power-cycled all the APs. So I'd like to apologize for the all the wireless problems that teams experienced, and I'd also like to thank Jim from NASA KSC and his crew for all the networking support they provided.

With that now being said, I'd appreciate any feedback on the Sundial system. If you team used Sundial at the regionals and/or the Championship, what did you like about it, and what could be improved upon (wireless issues aside) for next year?

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sundial was great to have. I can’t imagine how bad it would have been on Friday without it. The info on the large screens was almost impossible to read with my old eyes.

Great job.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Im sure everyone else at home was very grateful to have you link to it so we could have the match schedules!

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sundial was great when we could get a connection to it in the pits. My only feature request would be to possible have it change colors or something thats very easy to see so we would know when to go queue up. Another idea I had to prevent security problems like what we unfortunately had would be to make it an encrypted network with a very easy to use key like, "sundialisthebest".

Other than that, it would be great if it was available at every regional as well as the championship. Sundial is really the best way to know if you have a match coming up.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

We only used Sundial at the Championships in Atlanta.
Sundial worked perfectly for us in the pits on Saturday without issue.
We had trouble finding and connecting to the AP on both Thursday and Friday.

A suggestion would be to extend the broadcast area to include inside the Georgia Dome. It would be a real plus for the scout teams in the stands to have access to the standings and statistics. It would also help out the spirit folks in the stands to know when how soon their team would be up! Even the folks just coming to watch might like to know when their team is going to be up so they can be there!!!

As suggestion I read elsewhere was to somehow incorporate the pit announcements as to who needs help or parts etc... as well. We like to help out anyone and everyone who needs so that would help us out.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

i think sundial was a GREAT system!:D

I dont know waht teams would have done at championships with no cueing systems

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I think it would be really cool if there was a save all button for when you have to manually enter in all of the matches, but now that Sundial has a connection to the score system, that may no longer be a problem.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

The concept was/is super. As with all new applications there are a few bugs.

We had many problems with the service. We kept loosing signal ( it was weak) and could not get on. With all the other activities we had to devote time to it became a "Nice to Have" but no time to play with it.

Was the fact that there were dozens of other wireless networks set up by teams ( in violation of FIRST rules - I think) causing the problem?

This system looked to be a real improvement in communication. I would like to see it at ALL events and for sure the Championship.

What can the Community of FIRST do to help?

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I have to say that when we could get it to work, Sundial was amazing. It was so handy to see how many matches away you were, when you were supposed to be queuing, what your rank was, etc. I would love to see this come to every regional, it makes so much sense and is much more convenient for those in the pits.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Thanks for a great service. Sundial was very dependable after the AP issues were resolved. We came to depend on it pretty heavily as the time for each of our matches approached. We mostly kept the countdown up and used it to check the standings (instead of the big projection screens) when we returned from our match.

It worked great for us after around 10-12 on Friday.
We were able to connect after pit opening on Friday morning when the match schedule was first posted, but the signal strength was weak and our connection was dropped.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sundial was absolutely amazing throughout Championships and made our lives a lot easier, from upcoming match timings to live rankings. The only problem I saw with the service was the range of the wireless connection (Maybe next year there can be wireless rangeboosters strategically placed around the pits). Other than that, it was a fantastic service.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

We used Sundial at UTC, and it was excellent in helping us to know when to prepare to queue up.

At the Championships, one of our pit crew members was able to successfully connect to the network on Friday. The updated standings and rankings were extremely helpful, because often times they would not be updated as quickly or recently on the screens that were hanging in the pits.

I would also like to thank Team 45 for turning around one of the monitors in their pits to face our pit after they had set up Sundial with our team number inputed. This allowed us to stay on schedule as well during the times that we could not connect.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sad to say, my attempt to provide Sundial service at LSR didn't work out, and I'm unsure why. There was some weird daylight savings time problem or something. Hitting web pages from the serving computer provided correct match times, but when I pulled up matches from my laptop, times were consistently an hour off, and no amount of poking the clock on the server seemed to help. I eventually gave up since I had a dozen other things to do. I like the idea and mostly like the implementation, but there's obviously still some issues that need to be worked out. In addition, a linux based install would probably be useful as well.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Did you have the Microsoft DST patch installed on the sundial server? We had a similar issue trying to run it at SVR, and I think thats what we finally did to resolve it. Combined with the fact that we are from the east coast so had half our PC's set to EST instead of PST, it was a little rough getting it started, but we eventually got it up and running.

I think its a very neat system, although it would be neater if it got the match schedules from FIRST's software at all events, from the user end, I have no complaints.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I noticed that the page would die if the connection was lost, and I had to refresh the page, bringing me back to the event/team selection page. Not a big deal, but it seems that there should be a "Connection lost. Repair?"-type button when the connection is lost. I don't know that much about JavaScript or I'd try it myself. Other funky things happened when the connection was dropped, too.

Also, the local copy of The Blue Alliance's site was having some horrid scripting issues. There were lists of errors as the pages loaded. Everything seemed to function other than that.

Whoever added the PDF generator feature to the match list is my hero. Saved me from the DoS issues with the APs--the moment I got a connection, I went to the match listings and pulled down the PDF.

Overall, Sundial is a great piece of work! The Blue Alliance stuff made it all the better.

I wonder if we shouldn't encourage teams to use Sundial network as the scouting backbone--connect their scouting servers to it and connect whatever clients to it that they are using. Tell teams not to set up their own access points, and find the ones that do and shut them down (NetStumbler is a good thing). That would eliminate the need for powerful APs. As far as the DoS, I don't know what to do. I don't know enough about networks to know, but is it possible to figure out the IP or MAC address of an offending machine? I am sure all of us would be willing to go so far as to register our MAC address at Pit Admin if that would help.

This is a cool service that will be nice as it keeps growing. Keep up the good work!

JBot

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I would comment, but I could never connect to the network long enough to get it running....

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sundial is a wonderful program and it really helped us at championships, thanks. Cant wait to use it again. Will it be at monty? im just wondering :]

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Sitting here at home and work I was going bonkers not knowing if I'd miss my fav team. Sundail was a gift from the gods as I could work my around the matches I wanted to see. I would have loved to sit and watch ever match but thats impossible if you still going to TCB. :cool:
Thanks Sundail, the teams that made this happen, and NASA from bringing it together. :D

PS I really enjoyed watching what I was able too... I have got to make it to Champs and Boilermaker next year for sure!

Here is the concept....
 

Imagine a automatic, one computer solution to recording and archiving match footage. Arrive at a FIRST event, plug the field video feed to the computer and interface Sundial or the FIRST field. When matches complete, the computer waits till the score is posted, tags the file with the score, clips the match to one file, and automatically begins transcoding the file to Divx or WMA.

I believe I can help develop the software to make this happen using the recording software I work on, Beyond TV. A little background on me, I was a member of the Robonauts, Team 118. After I graduated college I now work at a software company called SnapStream Media. Our company writes software that records television to your computer. One of Robonaut engineers approached me at Lone Star with this idea and using our software to make this concept happen. After attending nationals and seeing how people record match footage with VCRs, I decided that I really would like to make this a reality.

I would like to lean more about how sundial interfaces with the FIRST field and what information is available. I would like to begin working on this over the next few months and would like to be able to test this out somehow with Sundial or Field software. Any help on learning how this works would be appreciated. Hopefully by next year we can get this soluion to many regionals, or at least Lone Star.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

We used Sundial last year in Boston, and was looking forward to it this year, both in Boston and possibly in Rochester. Unfortunately, it was in neither place :(

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

What is the probability of Sundial being able to continue to be linked to the scoring computers at regional events for 2008? I've love to host it at an event, but my team doesn't have the man power to have a dedicated person keep it up.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I am also interested in running a Sundial system. Is anyone writing a white paper ?

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

If I'm correct, Pat had said that 4fx and FIRST just hadn't gotten the link up and running for the regionals. However, it's really not that tough to run, I organized and ran it at SVR. Once you have it set up, it's simply a matter of having someone sitting in the stands clicking "started" for matches, and the software does everything else itself. I'd be more than happy to write a white paper, with tips for fixing problems I ran into and other suggestions.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

That's actually a really good idea - it would stop random computers set to "Connect automatically to non-preferred networks" from wandering on. Thanks!

That, and the GWCC and Autodesk networks were causing some problems as well (although there's nothing we could do about that).

I really couldn't say. Both FIRST's staff electrical engineer and "the developer" from 4FX expressed interest in integrating Sundial into the scoring system next year, but I've heard the same thing the past two years, and haven't gotten the support I've needed until late in the season. My biggest problem working with FIRST has been the high turnover rate in technical staff and different scoring systems - only time will tell if something can be worked out for 2008.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Is there any chance of Sundial making a return in 2008? We used it when it was working in San Jose and it was helpful.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I can't speak for every reagional, but I know that it will not be reapearing at BMR this year. FIRST won't let me run it this year due to problems at championships last year. (???)

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Almost same here. Sundial is not permitted at the VCU regional this year:( !

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I wouldn't count on it. FIRST recently issued an advisory to all FTA's warning them not to allow Sundial to be used at any regional.

The problem at the Championship last year was that sometimes the scoring computers were experiencing a slowdown in saving the match scores to the database. We weren't able to do any testing to make sure, but it was postulated that the slowdown was being caused by the Sundial server accessing the event server database at the same time to get the match scores and standings.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Maybe we could do some more testing during the off-season events. I'm sure FIRST would be more lenient about SunDial then.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I REALLY wish sundial would be around again this year... but I have questions for it's developers...

Is there any way I can get at the data sundial gets (namely, the match list, current match, time to next match for team x)?

Does anyone know who I can contact or know themselves how I can access this data?

Thanks,

-q

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I believe it can be run manually, but you have to have a dedicated person in the stands to update the matches as they go in case they fall behind the time slots.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

I guess I didn't phrase my question very well. I don't mean getting the data it uses to operate, I mean getting the string/numerical data that the sundial program displays in real time over the network. I want to integrate it into some statistical software for the team.

Thanks again,

-q

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Assuming Sundial is running, there are XML feeds from which you can get the data, like these:

http://sundial.patfair.net/common.ph...etfullschedule
http://sundial.patfair.net/common.ph...ion=getresults
http://sundial.patfair.net/common.ph...n=getstandings

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Aha! Thank you!

Now, you'll have to forgive me, but I'm a hardware programmer that has never dabbled in any of the web languages before. I can see the XML file when I open it in my browser, looks like just a big string you can parse.

I see there's also some kind of PHP thing you can use to parse XML, but here's my problem...

Optimally, I'd like to be able to read this data into VB6 (since I can easily communicate via RS-232 from there). Does anyone know how I can get this string into VB6 or even have some kind of XML parsing utility they know of that will work with VB6?

I have no problem parsing the string myself, I'm just confused as to how I actually get this XML data from an application.

If there's another development language this might be easier to work from (i.e. C# express) that still offers RS-232 comm, I'm all ears.

Thanks a lot,

-q

p.s. How do I get the eventID numbers (ex. 1412), and how do the time codes (ex. 1204471800) work? Also, what does status (ex. 5) mean?

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

http://sundial.patfair.net/common.ph...n=geteventlist will get you a list of events on the server.

The time codes are in Unix Epoch notation (i.e. the number of seconds since Jan. 1, 1970).

The match status codes are 0 = scheduled, 1 = first call, 2 = second call, 3 = last call, 4 = on deck, 5 = started.

I'm not sure about the VB6, but any of the .NET languages will have built-in controls for both XML parsing and serial communication.

Re: Sundial Feedback 2007
 

Thank you Pat, you're a great help.

Hopefully you'll all get to see what this is all leading to in a couple weeks (provided things don't get too dicey for the programming team!).

-q