What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

It’s given that lot of teams and people are frustrated after this season. It started with the Banebots, went to the algorithm of the match listings, ruling of not being able to use tools in the pit, then it was about defense… and we are still going at it. It’s always something new everyday. It has been said before and we are repeating over and over that something needs to be done. There is another thread where there is a moderated discussion about how to improve things that we have dealt with this past season. We have bashed Banebots, FIRST, Teams, GDC, but have any of us take a step back and think that there are over 1300 teams around the world, and not everyone is going to be happy with what is given. There are threads where people posted things saying “It should be done this way,” “or maybe they should handle it this way.” Before posting have you thought about if all those 1300 teams going to be happy with what you came up with? I mean come on, there are only so many active members on Chiefdelphi that come here and read this stuff that we go through. Keep in mind those suggestions only contains ideas, but I have yet to see enough posts where an idea was proposed with “how, when, where, why, who.”

I admire what Dr. Joe and Shane Colton from Team 97 (I know there are many others but I don’t personally talk to all of them) did this past season with the Banebots. They saw a problem and started analyzing until they could come up with a solution for the teams. Lot of teams have benefited after reading the material they have posted on the forum.

It upsets me when I see posts by people in threads discussing incidents that have happened but they weren’t there to witness it themselves. I assume that they pick a “favorite side” and go at it (I am not saying everyone posts like this but structure of some posts makes me believe that).

What happened to the FIRST community I have joined 6 years ago? What happened to the times when we would do anything to help each other? What happened to the times when the opposing alliance would share 10 ft. of #25 chain so the teams can compete in the finals? We all go out there and talk about how great FIRST is, but over here we talk about is what went wrong, how this or that would have been better.

The reason I am starting this thread is because a few months ago, I met this parent at a Lego league tournament, she wanted to know how to get her daughter involved in FIRST. I referred her to the FIRST website, gave her my number, email and also I gave her a link to the Chiefdelphi forums. I received a call from her about 5 hours ago and the first thing that pops up into my mind that she said is “Oh, looks like there were a lot of difficulties to get through this season,” She also pointed out the Banebot bashing as well as the “defense” threads. This parent read the forum for a while, observed and then called me. She is still interested in becoming a mentor and have her daughter join a team.

So, please before you post in any technical threads or any threads that has to do with the reputation of some team/person/company, think twice. When you throw an idea out there, please explain why it is better, how is it better. If you don’t have time to make a long post at that time, come back later and think and then post.

I am very frustrated after getting the phone call from the parent. This is the first time in 6 years, anybody have ever talked to me like this about FIRST. Please stop bashing, help to come up with a solution for the problems we find everyday.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I'm sorry if my post about the shock sensor/inconsistent ramming calls was the final straw. It was more of an entertaining idea than anything. I realize that everyone involved here is human, and I also realize that there is no reason to bash everyone involved.

So here it is: I apologize for any post I may have created bashing anyone/anything. I am willing to love, and that's what I've been trying to do all along.

But something tells me, you aren't talking to me.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

No no... don't get me wrong. I am not talking to "specific people." I am talking to the whole community.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

This year has been a pretty tough year for teams, I know I saw a lot of problems both first hand and as an outside observer reading here on CD. Problems combined that the stress we normally undergo and the seeming anonymity of the internet often lead to posts that may cross over that line separating Good Idea Land and Bad Idea Land. I would also like to ask anyone to remember to always always always think twice about posting, doubly so when you are upset.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Don't think of the FIRST family as becoming "dysfunctional" (i.e. spiteful, distrustful, non-communicative) based on some posts in CD.

The fact is that many of us are success-driven and competitive by nature. We want to be at the top of our class, whether it is in school or on the field. Sometimes that desire will affect our better judgment, especially in the heat of the moment. It's a very difficult test of character to accept without any emotional display that people (drivers, referees, even Banebot designers) make mistakes when we are under the pressure of a "critical" match or fast-approaching ship date.

I think that after the smoke clears from an isolated incident or rash reaction to adversity, we pretty quickly revert to that cooperative and supportive FIRST community that you are proud to call your family.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Ari -
I understand your plea to the community here in Chief Delphi.
I also understand that you asked a parent and future mentor to observe this community and she did.

I've been observing our community as well and what I've been thinking about for a few months with threads like the Banebots and the algorithm, and student/mentor lead discussions, and the defense thread(s) over the past few days is how unique this situation is.

I agree that we should be respectful in our posts, even when approaching topics from different perspectives and views. What astounds and encourages me, is that this community is made up of students, engineers, teachers, scientists, sponsors, parents, NEMS - all working together at communication, sharing information, working through problems to possible solutions.

We call ourselves community/family. We are. Our kitchen table where we gather is the size of Chief Delphi. We are at the very end of a season and this week, some of the threads are reflecting that. At the same time, other threads are developing that are reflecting our community in a positive light. If you have concerns regarding our poor showing as community, please direct your contact to some of these threads, showing her that yes, we argue and discuss, sometimes heatedly - but we also share history, team work at its best, and compassion. We learn and grow together. We are a community that is constantly changing and evolving. And we can always do better.
Jane

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I haven't been around as long as some have, (that should be evident), but I can definitely see some of your points.
The community definitely has changed irrevocably; it has grown exponentially over the years, and grown more and more competitive.
I think part of the changes you see with that are the growing competition. With so many teams, teams want to make themselves noticeable in the global community, and I think they may resort to less conventional methods of doing that. They think less and less about the community as a whole, and more of their team's advancement (sort of like what David said).

I really don't see how we can 'find a solution' to these problems, as much as encourage forum members to think about what they are posting, and crack down on bashing.

Or we can strengthen this wonderful community that I call my family as well. As others have echoed in other threads, the intimacy we had in earlier years is no longer there. But now we have a new thing on our side: universality. We still have our FIRST friends...but they grow more and more numerous with each year...and I can only see them continuing to grow.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

You can't have 1,300 teams, 40+ regionals etc without problems and people complaining.

Sure there are problems, sure the alliance program with duplicates was bad, sure the banebots were bad.

But FIRST is like life and what it will be like in industry. It is made up of people and problems. I think overall the attitudes at FIRST are fantastic. Problems are small, FIRST works at both keeping the problems down and attitudes up.

This all starts with you an individual and as a team. It is all our responsibility to work on the problems and attitudes.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Ary,

I couldn't agree with you more. It's hard to tell what the root cause is, but i have to give us as FIRSTers the benefit f the doubt. I think a lot of the frustration stems from the magnitude of the problems this year (there didn't seem to be many problems with the KOP transmissions from 05 or 06, and the randomizer was better in the past in many peoples minds). A lot of the frustration, though, is also perpetuated by us as users of CD and members of teams.

I always try to teach students that this isn't about the robot. They have a hard time believing me most of the time, but they get it (at least i think they do), and they try to resolve their frustrations rather than turning them into a big deal.

The best thing for us to do IMO is to start with ourselves, our teams and our sister teams (see the thread out about the "Sweet Challenge") and be the change.

I won't see another season of FRC until 2010, and i hope FIRST will still be what i grew up loving. I'm confident it will, and i know that we can all do our part to help out.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Every time a big problem was expressed on Chief Delphi, the problem was fixed, or explained.

Just some food for thought.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I don't know what it was, but it seemed that everyone was in a worse 'mood' this season. The championship 'could be improved' thread is full of people saying it was not all that great, some saying it was the worst one for years. The drillpress-banning thread was full of people saying it was the last straw or that they are steadily getting more fed up with FIRST.

I'm curious if the root cause is that people are less enthused about something this year in general, that is making them gripe more. Maybe this winter was particularely cold or snowy (it sure was in the waterloo area). Maybe funding was harder to come by due to some cyclical downturn which made the whole build period more stressful.

If your entire season was consumed by being cold, snowed-in, and worrying about how you were going to pay for all of this, FIRST making a questionable ruling or your banebots motor breaking on top of it all will hit a lot harder.

------ More likely idea: -------
Another possibility is that this year there was just a spike of odd or poorly-received rulings by FIRST. If you think about it, every year there will be a few ill-received rulings or problems with the KOP, and the number and severity of these unhappy events will vary by year. Some years there will be 10 critically unhappy events, some years there'll be 2 trivial ones. We may have just been unlucky enough to have had a spike year, and next year it'll return to normal.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I'm almost convinced its just this year. Almost everyone I know has been having problems since New Years, both in and out of FIRST.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I so wanted to include that in my post. You read my mind.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I agree with what has been said so far. People have seemed to me to be in a "bad mood" all season this year. Yet I only find this to be the case on these forums. I myself have disagreed with some rules and problems that have arose, and I tried my best to not show anger during posts. But I did notice that the regionals that went to people were exactly the same as two years ago ( last time I went) showing me that although we may type bad things, we were just as excited to play the game as any other year. and anyone who made comments about "getting fed up" and alike, it did not show during competition time. FIRST is just like everything else, problems will happen, thankfully the majority of us always have/will act in a very positive manner.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Being someone who made some poor choices of words manu years ago on these boards, has taught me and other teamates in check. When we see a problem, we hash it out, usually agree on a best course of action, and go from there. Never has that solution been to come on the boards and comment on every single thread...

On the mentor side, you have people from teams who remember "the good 'ol days". A time and place they wish to return to. This season was different from previous years, and next year will be too. FIRST as a whole is expanding quickly, and bickering until threads are closed, feelings are hurt, and friends become enemies will not help at all. It only takes one person to make a team look horrible ( I speak from personal experience ) on the outside no matter how many good people you have in your organization.


Humans resist change, and we will resist change. There is no controling that. What can be controlled, is how we all handle the changes.


Stay classy Chief Delphi

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

That is exactly what i have been thinking lately. I couldn't figure out a proper way to post my thoughts upon why somehow change could be a minor result in the diffrence this year from previous. i still have no clue. My guess goes out to change, not everyone likes it including myself.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

First, I'd like to say that I agree with you, Arefin...


I would also like to say that there are many discernible reasons for the spike of ill-meant threads and posts.

Most predominantly of which, is human nature. When you design your robot around something which you expect to be a solid, well-engineered piece of equipment (as is implied by it being in the KOP)... and that object ends up failing; the first human reaction is to be angry. To be upset because something beyond your control caused you to seemingly fail. Few people's first reaction is to solve the problem... and that is one of the many facts of life. I look up to and strive to attain the level of maturity it takes to look at a (seemingly) gigantic problem, and immediately begin trying to formulate an answer; but when you have people under the age of Thirty frequently posting, you can expect to see a little immaturity. That, and just the idea of six hard weeks of building can be enough to bring anyone to a state of constant annoyance.

Another reason that has not been looked upon in a full light, is the fact that first is now over 1300 teams strong. With this great increase in recognition and inspiration, there comes a large increase in some not-so pleasant things as well. Namely an increase in the number of teams that have to lose. Thirteen hundred teams compete, and only three complete that long road to victory. When more teams lose, there will be more complaints.

Oy, a reason that I know is on a lot of peoples' minds, but I'm not going to go into in this particular post, is that maybe FIRST (The organization) is giving FIRST (The developed Community) more to complain about this year.

A reason that I find myself just noticing this year, is the lack of solid representations from non-"elite" teams. ChiefDelphi is a home for the more successful teams in FIRST. There are exceptions to this rule (and I'll be the first to admit that 306 is one such exception), but predominantly... The only robots I see represented are the ones that make me drool. Now, There is absolutely nothing wrong with being an elite team, and I have in fact been inspired by quite a few of them. My only point here is that when you have a discussion between the most involved people in FIRST, It is only to be expected that you will get involved discussions and answers. Answers that include all aspects of a situation, even the bad. The fact that you have posts that are wrought with hard feelings, numerous problems, and few solutions is just a reflection upon real life.

When a community gets as large as FIRST is, it will increase uniformly... There will be just as much increase in the unpleasant as there is in the pleasant. Any trend on ChiefDelphi of there being more good than bad can only be attributed to outstanding moderation.



-Cody C





NOTE: As with all posts, some of you will like what you've read, and some of you will not. There have been no strategically placed smilies to lighten the mood of the post, only opinions. It is out of my hands now. I'd ask that you respond responsibly.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Im sorry for my post earlier this week bashing 1732

You guys must have been a great team to be ranked #1

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

While there have been a number of threads where critical opinions have been posted, do you really believe that it is terribly different from just a few years ago? I've been a member of the ChiefDelphi forums for 3 years, and lurked for about 1 year previous to that. I don't think the frequency of critical posts has risen all that much. There have always been complaints about certain calls, rules, and team actions. There always will be.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out problems that need to be addressed, and I think you would agree with me on that. Suggestions about how things should be improved are needed in order to maintain the functionality of the FIRST organization. I don't believe every complaint needs to be accompanied by a perfect solution to the problem. Are you saying that if a team has trouble with their Banebots transmission, they have no right to complain because they can't come up with a solution to the problem by themselves? I doubt it. I think your (and my) main beef is with the uninformed, insulting, and destructive posts.

It upsets me too. But I think the ratio of good posts to bad posts is not as high as you seem to think it is. Arefin, have you ever been a member/avid lurker on any other forums on the internet? I have, and believe me - the quality of posts here (in terms of respect, appropriateness, etc) is much higher than what you see most everywhere else. I'm not saying we should stop trying to reduce the number of bad posts, but I don't think the ChiefDelphi community is in any state of crisis either!

Again, I don't believe this aspect of FIRST has diminished at all. I have not seen a drop in the willingness of teams to share their resources. Likewise, I have not really seen a disproportionate increase in the number of critical threads for this time of year (as opposed to March/April of previous years). I think you are perceiving an increase only because this is competition season (so naturally the topics of conversation are going to be about the venues, the referees, the plays, etc.).

This is a forum - a means of exchanging ideas! The purpose here isn't to pat ourselves on the backs and proclaim how wonderful we are in every thread! It's human nature to focus on the negatives - just look at the news headlines. People want to discuss the problems so that they can be solved or prevented. That us why ChiefDelphi exists - to discuss and solve the problems we encounter, so that we can improve ourselves and our community.

I agree that people should wait until they have gathered all of the perspectives/evidence available before they post. However, I must reiterate that I still believe the quality of posting here is quite good. If you reread the thread about Curie semifinals, you will find a large number of well thought out posts and only a small number of posts that were in poor taste. Yes, the bad posts are still there, but I don't think there is a whole lot more that we can do about it. We are never going to be able to eliminate them completely - that shouldn't be our goal. Our goal should be to continue encouraging people to make informed, respectful posts (and we have been doing a good job).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the reaction of the parent. ChiefDelphi is not meant to explain to outsiders/newcomers what FIRST is all about. That is what the official FIRST website is for. ChiefDelphi is about what goes on behind the scenes - and therefore is the perfect place to discuss problems and voice complaints. Perhaps you should not have referred her to this site if you felt that reading controversial FIRST topics would have discouraged her from becoming involved in the program.

I think most complaints here are voiced in a reasonable manner. For example, in the thread about what could have been better about championships, I don't think I saw a single post that was disrespectful or rude. I think it's perfectly ok to talk about the negatives. I don't think it's ok to stifle potential criticisms. Just because something is a complaint doesn't mean it's automatically rude. How is FIRST expected to ever make things better for us if we don't allow ourselves to bring it up out of fear? If anything, I think the real problem on ChiefDelphi is how quickly many members judge something as "un-GP" - just because it's not directly praising FIRST. Something is very wrong when people are put down for calling out FIRST on it's mistakes. FIRST isn't a totalitarian dictatorship... is it?

Actually, I think much of the reason why FIRST has "messed up" so many times this year is the lack of differing (and perhaps critical) perspectives within the organization. When I saw Paul Copioli at the social in Atlanta, he said something to Tytus which I thought was very profound. He said that part of the reason why FIRST was having trouble was the fact that it has no competition (i.e. for a better product). Everyone is so focused on patting ourselves on the back that we get a little bit removed from reality (and other, better options out there). We NEED to keep fresh ideas and perspectives flowing in. We can't be afraid to critique the existing system. If we don't, how will it ever get better? If we aren't allowed to speak our minds, how is FIRST any different from being a close-minded clique?

--Jaine

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I have tried to keep distant from many of the issues on CD, but observed the same thing as Tom: the people involved in these situations were smart enough to keep their composure, and work towards a solution or explanation even when surrounded by people unable to remain calm and collected.

It takes a certain type of person to recognize a problem, bring it to light, and fix it. In the end, people who are able to hold their heads above the fray are the most well respected and liked in their respective communities. This is what FIRST is about in many situations, and perhaps some people have forgotten this and now that the season is over, will be able to step back and reflect on things. We can't fault anyone for a momentary lapse in posting harsh words or making a complaint about a system if they prove they are not being insolent and that they have a legitimate reason for their actions. I respect the people on ChiefDelphi who have maintained this mantra throughout the season, and been able to clearly and effectively communicate their thoughts, and solve problems.

There really isn't anything wrong with the growth we are seeing here, and the level or type of discussion being posted here, its just a natural process. We merely need to keep an eye out for both ourselves and others to stay within reasonable bounds, and make sure that cooler heads prevail when the last person takes their say. I don't mean this post as a shot or insult to anyone, but merely as a general observation of the current activity. Many issues have been resolved, or explained, and I commend the people involved in that.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

When individuals present opinions critiquing FIRST's "Infinite" wisdom, the interpretations of its ideals and goals are closely moderated and often censored. This frustration and dissatisfaction is not a new phenomena in this program. Only recently has a large scale awareness of said frustration surfaced. Those of you who have read my (now much less frequent) posts in the past few years will notice that they are filled with sarcastic and "around the corner" remarks about various shortcomings of the program and people participating in it. Because of the overwhelming amount of want-to-be heroes who jump on any opportunity to "bash and crush" the rebellion, I have found ChiefDelphi and the autonomous followers of FIRST's Ideal Vision repulsive and impossible for me to fully cooperate with. Straightforward posts for me are gone. The community is now speaking out and has therefore changed.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

It's important to recognize the difference between whining and constructive criticism. Anyone can point out a problem, offering a solution is far more valuable.

When something really bothers you, take the time to identify the cause and when you come up with an idea of how to fix it, then submit a post.

P.S. I wish I was better at doing that than I am.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I joined these forums in January of 2003 two days prior to the kickoff for the 2003 season and I was browsing them since September of 2002.

I have noticed more threads with a negative undertone to them then in previous years. It seems that as more and more people join these forums and more and more of the members become more experienced in FIRST and its great ways that we are becoming able to have better and more incite full opinions on many things. This year there have been more problems in one season that in the past that I have experienced, yes I did skim through the archives before posting this, with the transmission problems, the random rules posted then taken away. People are voicing their opinions and this year more then ever FIRST is hearing those opinions and we ARE making a difference. The transmission problem was addressed by FIRST. The tools in the pits was addressed and taken care of. Now the big issues are with the reffing and inconsistent rulings at the regional and Championship levels by next season I truly believe that we will solve these problems in some way or at least make them more tolerable for most people.
There is a reoccurring theme in this thread of their are 1300+ teams involved in FIRST this season with 37 regionals, nothing is going to make everyone happy. We must make the best of what we can get and when we can no longer tolerate something then change it. FIRST is what YOU make of it, it can be the best time of your life and inspire you to great things or it can be the worst part of your year but the best part is that no matter what you still learned something.
This time in 2 months most all the arguing and disagreements will be over with, there will still always be posts with READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING! This team and that team are professional/engineer only built. He/She is un GP because of this or that... Sadly those things will never change in this world even our nice almost perfect world of FIRST. Lets all take a deep breath and remember this is just a game there is a whole big world out there and we have to survive that before worrying about being able to bring in tools to the pit or who hit who in what match.

All of this will soon pass and it will then comeback again and again just as the seasons change.

Sorry for some of the randomness of this post, but hey I am witting this at like 0450am so what do you expect. Also sorry for the spelling and grammar errors that I am sure to have committed in this post English is not my first language, my first is bad English, so I apologize.

So I now throw my $1.00 into the bucket and take back my 0.98 cents.

EDIT: I wrote this at 0450am but I was busy at work and could not post it untill 0725.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Yes it is terribly different from just a few years ago. There have been complaints in the past but not like this.

Yup, I agree. Problems need to be pointed out. But at the same time provide us with a solution (Ex. In my post I pointed out what Dr. Joe and Shane Colton did).

When did I say in my post that Teams shouldn’t point out if they were having trouble with the transmissions? Please use quotes and the words I said.

Yup, you are right. I was very upset with the uninformed, insulting, and destructive posts. More so, I hate it when people jump on the bandwagon with choosing their favorite side to the topic.

Yes, I have been a member of quite a few other forums. I spend most of my time browsing here than any other forum because of the quality of the posts. Honestly, if you have kept track of Chiefdelphi in the past 3 years (which you have since I have known you), you would agree that there have been more complaints this season than any other season.

Yup, same here, I haven’t seen a drop in the willingness of teams to share their resources. But I did see teams bashing other teams at the championship (when I was standing right next to them), I am not gong to mention any team numbers. I was very surprised.

“This is a forum – a means of exchanging ideas!”… okay let’s exchange ideas. Let’s not talk about what Team A did to Team B like there have been situations this past season. Pointing it out once is fine, but when there are many posting the same thing over and over, not only it gets boring, it also puts down a whole team. Let Team A and Team B work it out between themselves.

“People want to discuss the problems so that they can be solved or prevented,” you know… discussion solves a problem. But a topic where you have two different sides to it and you have people choosing sides will not solve a problem.

Again, if you analyze my post, you will know that I wasn’t talking about the Curie semifinal thread, there are a lot more there than just that one thread. There are very well thought posts. Who said, the goal was to eliminate bad posts? I personally believe, I encourage people to informative and respectful posts.

Jaine, out of everyone I didn’t expect you to say that I shouldn’t be concerned about the reaction of the parent who wants to get involved in FIRST. Maybe you wouldn’t be concerned, but I am.

“Chiefdelphi is about what goes on behind the scenes- and therefore is the perfect place to discuss problems and voice complaints.” Hmm… judging from what you said… maybe … teams and other websites shouldn’t put Chiefdelphi in their “other links” tab. If people are to come here on the forum and find us “complaining,” In this case, that’s how the parent feel, and I am concerned.

Keep the fresh ideas coming and keep discussing them, I love new ideas, but think twice before you post and be respectful.

Jaine, I know you will come back and ask me and point out over and over that people have been respectful on the forum just like you did in your post and I want to tell you right now that I am not saying that people are being disrespectful. In a critical time like this, people need to be reminded to not to post when they are frustrated.

You are a very good reader and you can analyze well. You have the power to write to turn a topic around to a totally something new. I like that.

If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to send me a pm, im, email. I doubt I will be browsing CD for the next week like I always do. Finals are going to kick my butt.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

"The harder we fall, the higher we bounce."

I really believe this. I've seen things go downhill before, but following those not-so-good times always comes amazing times - I'm proud to say that both the not-so-good times and the amazing times are part of the learning experience that we call FIRST.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I blame it on Pluto being pissed it's not a planet anymore and throwing the cosmos out of whack. LOL
That's my official standpoint on the lighter side.

But on the serious side, something is definitely "up" this past year.
I see it within FIRST and also within my personal life (family, friends etc..)

Kinda sad really.

I remember back in the day in FIRST when the only real stress was at competitions or build season, and even that stress, looking back on my 7 years in this program, wasn't anything a good team or person couldn't handle effectively and maturely.

Lately it's gotten out of control. It's very hard to explain, but then again, so many people know what you are talking about without saying a word that it's so easy to explain at the same time.

I guess that just happens when an organization gets bigger, and more people with differening opinions and personalities are introduced into that system.

I've said this many times before this year when I actually got a chance to think about things, that the dream to "change the culture" is happening, but when you just say "change the culture", isn't a change in any direction, for the good, for the bad, side is still a change?
Maybe what our goal which everyone assumes is the case, but without any assumptions should be to enact a positive change on the culture.

And Arefin, our FIRST family tree is still alive and kicking. It's just (as in every family, or team, or group) every once in a while you see more of the bad apples on that family tree than the strong folks who act as the roots who make up the tree's mighty backbone.

Don't give up hope on this family tree, for it has weathered a lot in the past, and will continue to hold this organization strong with it's effort in the future.

</$0.02>

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

This might be a good topic for another thread rather than high jacking this one but I can't help but think some of this is growing pains for a lot of people. The transition from high school to college and from college to career all while mentoring, can be a little rough. I don't say this to take away from the initial post that Arefin has made or the other posts that have followed but it is a thought I've had as I've read through the thread. And, I think FIRST is experiencing growing pains in some areas as well.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Jane I was thinking the same thing. So many of the community here have gotten older and have so many more pressures on their time and resources. It’s not like it was when they were in high school all very young and full of FIRST spirit. Now they have much time and effort invested in something they love and the passion comes out even stronger.

You guys have built a great community that you can be proud of. It’s become a second family to many but like with all families there comes strife and conflict from time to time.

Has this community changed? Yes, it had too because the people in it have changed. Will it be what it was? Maybe not, especially not for the veterans, it’s a deeper thing for you now but for the new young ones coming up it’s still fresh and new.

It’s hard to keep a family intact and as you grow it will be harder but the rewards are great and worth the effort.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I posted this in the "Please Stop Complaining" thread earlier this season, but I feel as if it is applicable here:

Although it is tireless to read endless threads about dissatisfaction with rules and the game, it is helpful to teams to be able to vent, have someone hear their story, or at least know that someone shared the same experience.

CD isn't just a FIRST-worshiping forum, it's a place where teams come to discuss FIRST and the events related. Controversial rules and issues are discussed, which often lead to heated discussions, but I'm sure at the end of the day, everyone has the same goal, and there is usually not much negative associated with it. So if we just simply address all the good about an event and FIRST, with everything else pushed to the back burner and no criticism, I'm sure that a lot will go undone, and many preventable situations will occur.

Although I am relatively new to FIRST, only being a part of a team for 2 years and Chief Delphi lurker the year previous, I have quickly noticed a trend about the 2007 season that stands out. Although there were more "complaints" and problems this year like everyone else has said, the voice on this site is one thing that I love about FIRST. Unlike most organizations, everyone can be heard and have their opinion accepted respectfully, rather than keeping burning issues swept tightly under the rug. This is a very touchy subject that we're discussing, but hopefully each person that reads through this thread will now post more open-minded or with a better perspective.

Great topic, thanks for bringing it up, Arefin!

-No L

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Viewed from above the water's surface, a duck appears to turn and glide without effort, almost magically. Seen below the surface, that same duck's feet are a churning engine, paddling hard for every increment of progress.

When a problem surfaces on CD one day and has been fixed or explained just a little while later, you can be sure that some duck has been churning unseen feet to make that happen.

Ari, your concerns are well founded; but I'm sure you also know we've got some powerful ducks looking out for FIRST. This year has had its full measure of problems, but we can look forward to a better next year.

I've learned a lot this year and I suspect many others have, too.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I personally attribute this to the growing speed of Life. It's very rare for people to take the time to read a thread twice before posting, then think, then read over their own post before they respond. Much of the time, you feel strongly about something you read, and so you post out really fast to get your opinion out there. With the growth of what I've begun to call the "Right now, Right Here" age, when technology brings everything fast and how we want it, people have a tendency to respond on impulse.

So in short, I think that the issue of a lot of negative responses and ideas could be eliminated by everyone taking a step back, putting on some nice relaxing reggae or something, and slowing down the pace for a bit. By rushing to your response, you have a tendency to respond on gut reaction. True thought and progress comes best when you slow down and take your time, and fully think things through before posting and responding.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Amen, brother.

I suspect there are quite a few who post without reading the thread at all. This leads to more noise, more frustration and less problem-solving in CD.

For suggesting to a poster: "Read The FIRST Manual" because the answer is in there in the clearest possible terms, I get negative reps - what's that about? (BTW, I had snipped the relevant sentence from the manual and put it in a prior post in the same thread).

I think there's some laziness involved and some need to post a statement here, whether it's accurate or not.

For those of us who do take the time to read all of a thread, consider whether making a new post is "value-added" and then take the time to write it carefully, these other sorts of posts are a major distraction.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I'm surprised about this thread. I understand its significance and why it has appeared, but find it a growing pain with any organization of exponential growth.

This was a tough year for 1523. I cannot tell you all the equipment breakdowns we suffered this year. It amazes me that we made it as far as we did. But, as in industry, you have to recognize these issues and plan for the failures in terms of spare parts and possible plan 'B's.. No new designs are ever perfect and FIRST rolled out many changes this year with new radios, new sponsors, and a very challenging game.

If you had a robot that was competitive, and made the top 30 in a regional, congratulate yourselves. You succeeded.

If you had a robot that broke down, but we able to fix it for the next match, congratulate yourselves, you succeeded.

If you we in eliminations and your robot failed, congratulate yourselves, You made it farther than 90% of the other teams.

If you placed last in your regional, Congratulate yourselves, YOU made it farther than the millions of students that haven't been exposed to FIRST.

It's not the competitions that matter. Sure we spend countless hours getting ready for them and everyone wants to win, but we all win by showing up. If your robot can compete, that is the main goal. It doesn't matter if it is a 5 speed/ 7 motor shifter with anodized aluminum or a plywood box with KOP components. YOU ACHIEVED THE GOAL!

As the Cubs are famous for saying...Wait till next year!:o

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I would just like to add a thought here...
CD has traditionally welcomed new members. Oftentimes, the new members join up during the time around Kick Off and the beginning of build. It is ok for new people to be a part of this community and learn how to contribute in a positive manner. I would hope that they would be encouraged and helped in learning how to do this and I think the process, overall, works pretty well. We just have to remind ourselves to be nice and to be patient sometimes, as well.

I think there are several teams who have developed a 'how-to-post in CD' training session for the new members and I think that's a great idea.

Jane

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I don't think you can add the drillpress debacle into this mix. I believe that was an aberration that FIRST realized almost as soon as they released it. FIRST effectively forgot their own history.

The reason these industrial tools came into the team pits is because the facilities at the venues, in years past, were often 1) distant from the facility, 2) unable to accomodate the time constraints put on the teams by the FIRST match schedule, and 3) often undermanned for the number of work requests made by teams. Teams and sponsors both realized that in order to compete properly, they had to take more control of their repair cycles.

In 2001, I made my first trip to the Championship Event, and I thought we had a nice pit cart to work on our robot. That is until I saw the mobile toolshops brought down by Ford and GM that supported all the teams they sponsored. Teams and sponsors that were serious about competing made sure they had the tools necessary, within the time constraints given, to make it onto the field for every match.

As the years passed, more and more tools found their way into the pits. Although FIRST "hoped" that teams would act safely, they hadn't taken much control of that activity until just a few years ago. Even teams realized that the pit area was becoming unsafe, and you would frequently hear comments about it. FIRST began taking more serious control a few years back, and they have been trying to raise Safety Awareness each year by building upon what they previously have done. Now we have a Safety Award, teams get Safety tokens when observed, we have a Safety Video contest, etc.

FIRST also has been banning items from the pits to minimize the potential for injury. There is no grinding in the pits; every little spark that comes off during grinding is a very small pit of metal buring up. Not a good thing to be throwing into your neighbors pit area. There was no serious uproar when such items were banned previously. We, as a community, recognized the inherent lack of safety when grinding in the pits.

Drill presses on the other hand are not designed to remove metal by grinding and throwing it, but to push through an object in a more controlled action. Is it possible to "throw" drill press debris? Yes, of course you can, we have all seen it. But when used appropriately, a good machinist will be able to drill through a part and still control the shavings. This was the first problem with the decision, FIRST in its' ruling effectively insulted the fine engineers and machinists who are part of this organization.

The second part of the problem was that FIRST would allow teams to still use "hand" drills. This goes totally against machine shop safety and logic. It is much safer and more precise to clamp an object onto a stationary press for drilling, than to clamp the object onto a pit table and use a movable hand drill. FIRST's efforts to improve safety in the pits were counterproductive toward their own goals. Hence the very active CD thread.

The reason I view this as an aberration is because many posts in there are from folks who are less inclined to be so vehement in their criticism of FIRST. They are critical, when appropriate, but they post their critiques in a more thoughtful manner than some of the knee-jerk posts that wound up in that thread. These are long-time, well-respected members of the community, who saw a need to change a ruling quickly and acted thusly. FIRST to their credit recognized their own error and did make the change.

I do agree that there has been a change in the community this year, and I have been working on a post to put into the "Championships -- What to Improve" thread for a few days now. I will say that I was glad to see an apology to Team 1732; we all played the same game, and they finished on top. They deserved to be there, and no team should be made to feel as if they somehow "backed into First Place". It's disrespectful to the team, to the Championships as organized, and to the FIRST organization as a whole. Congratulations 1732, you played the game and finished on top -- Enjoy and Celebrate!

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Arefin,
Unfortunately FIRST today is NOT the FIRST you joined 6 years ago, and it is NOT the FIRST I joined 12 (ugh Im old) years ago. With growth comes change. No company that goes from 30 people to 1300 people in less than 10 years is going to be the same company. And you are right, the more teams there are, the fewer people that are going to always be "happy". Heck I can remember the day when there were probably 60 teams, and I could call Brian Farmer at FIRST and talk to him (as the electrical engineer on staff) directly and ask questions. While FIRST still answers the phone, all of that is done online now. Changes happen.

As for the issue with Chief Delphi. No offense to CD, but we NEVER refer any outsiders to this forum. While I feel it is an excellent resource for teams, great to dig through and search, and great to keep up on current issues, it is NOT a forum I expect outsiders to understand. Instead we refer them to the main FIRST site and our website (which also has forums, but they are all for ideas, not complaining).

We do make all of our team members sign up here... as 90% of the time, a question they stand in line to ask me can be answered here or in the rule book. It was also a HUGE help to read through the radio issue & banebots issue threads and have this community constructively figure out what was going on. It started with complaints, but evolved into solutions.

I have to think FIRST is listening with the number of changes and fixes they have made and with some of the responses in the team updates. There needs to be a place for people to hear eachother, to talk things out and to come up with solutions. I also like that someone said sometimes people just need to vent, to feel heard, and while it may not make this the friendliest place, it works, and it makes people feel better.

While FIRST isnt perfect, and I have to admit I had my moments this year, as did many, I think they are listening, and I think they are trying, and thats good enough for me to stick by it and keep believing in the ideals. Its just becoming more like real life, and maybe thats not a bad thing for our kids to learn.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

I feel that it was a domino effect this year. The complaining started immediately after the first week of regionals due to the match algorithm and then gained momentum.

When competition, pressure, time commitment, and large expenses overlap, it is natural for people to speak out, and sometimes we do it without thinking about who we are affecting...and gracious professionalism is lost or compromised.

Team 229 had to win the Long Island Regional or they would lose funding from a major sponsor. They were extremely classy in handling this situation, but how many other teams might be in the same situation? The impact of a match can be critical. Therefore, team members get upset because sponsors want results, and funding can depend on it.

As more teams have existed for more years, expectations increase, and the need to "Just Win Baby" increases. This is not a good thing, but again it is human nature. Everyone, as already stated needs to take a deep breath and think about why we all do this. If the answer is to win, then you need to take another deep breath and a huge step back.

We wouldn't be a part of FIRST if we didn't love it; and we will all continue to be a part of it... still competing and wanting to win, still mentoring and helping our students be the best they can be, still helping other teams grow and learn, and still helping one another by sharing on CD and in the pits...and still discussing critical issues in FIRST.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Putting this kind of pressure on teams (win or die) certainly raises the anxiety level for the team members. I doubt the referees ever consider that a missed call can mean a team loses it's major sponsor. For teams in this situation, unfortunately, it's not just a game.

However, some teams do lose major sponsors yet continue to participate (Bomb Squad, for sure). A major sponsor that requires teams to win regionals or the Championship for continued support doesn't seem to "get FIRST". FIRST is not supposed to be "Just Win, Baby", but maybe that's just where it's going. I would hope that teams confronted with that kind of expectation from a sponsor would try to remind the sponsor what FIRST is really about.

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Thanks, Bill for the kind words and for your part in Team 365's showing new teams like ours the way. MOE’s Chairman’s Award is so befitting - Congrats!

Re: What happened to the FIRST community I call my family?
 

Thank you for the apology!