Autonomous end game
 

So we've had the autnomous longer poll but what about autonomouse at the end of the game, I know I have seen it discussed but don't recall ever a poll. I would personally like to see it.. what do you think?

Re: Autonomous end game
 

That could be extremely interesting. Have the first 15 seconds and the last 15 seconds of a match be autonomous. It throws in more unknown variables and would be much harder to program, I would imagine. I would love to see that.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I would love to see it but what about all those teams that don't or can't do autonomous mode. Wouldn't it be somewhat anti-Climatic for the end of the game? to see X amount of seconds a bunch of robots doing very little?

Re: Autonomous end game
 

For those teams that simply don't do it, it might encourage their programmers to take on the challenge of being able to successfully perform autonomously.

Our team actually discussed this when we were speculating the color hint at the 2006 Championship.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I'm not sure. It depends on how that would be worked out. Would your robot, using this year's game as an example, be in the middle of scoring, then all of a sudden, it would stop and autonomous would take over? Would there still be autonomous at the beginning? Also, would the human operators have to step back? There would be some serious penalties if they didn't. It would throw the whole game. Interesting...I can't decide.:confused:

Re: Autonomous end game
 

i vote YES.

I saw our programming team take a 5 minute break once, so i know that need more to do. ;)

Re: Autonomous end game
 

Personally I like the idea. I also think it would be cool if the beginning game auto mode was worth less then the end game. i. e. the 2004 or 2007 auto mode at the beginning with the Decisiveness of the 2006 auto mode at the end.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

Last year I remember there being far more teams having successful autonomous modes. The amount of teams attempting to do autonomous mode is a function of how valuable it is.

I think it'd be neat to just have a simple one: have a white line demarking the 'end zone' that robots need to get into at the end of the game, maybe with a vision target near it as well. The white line could be used with the little infrared sensors we've had in the past.

The rule would be written like this:
For every robot that is contained in an end zone at the end of the game that was not in the end zone at the beginning of the final autonomous phase, that team's alliance scores 10 points.

So camping in the end zone wouldn't score you points, you'd HAVE to get there autonomously. It'd also open up defensive autonomous modes: teams might camp in front to block the opposing alliance from being able to earn bonus points.

I think the ideal implementation would have a 5-10 second pause between the end of teleoperated and the final autonomous mode. If you don't feel your robot is in a 'safe' position during this 5-10 second phase, you can hit the e-stop.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

Too many variables to consider at the end of the game, based on where you are what direction you are pointed etc, etc, it could be done, but I'm just saying that if it was so decisive you would see the drivers for so many teams trying to set their robot up so that their robot worked autonomously the best for the last 20 seconds of manned periods, and there would be those without autonomous programming who would just park themselves in the percieved way of the opponent's autonomous mode.

Not that it couldn't be done, but I think it would detract a lot and not be as interesting, and make autonomous 10 times harder, and looking at the autonomous from this year, it looks like we could really use that.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I do not think autonomous at the end of the game is very practical. I would be a big fan if the GDC was some how able to make it possible without having to jump over canyons.

The thing that is so great about autonomous is that it is very consistent, and you do not have to deal with too many elements when you are positioning your robot in the very beginning of the match and when you are choosing where to score. If you made autonomous at the end, you would have to some how waste seconds of your teleoperated period to set yourself up, or have to work harder and incorporate more sensors to where all of your sensors work together and get the task accomplished.

Add an extra autonomous period at the end - Sure.
Move the autonomous period to the end - NO.

I'm for it, but I don't see it very likely. But than again, the game will be different next year, so all the variables are completely different.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

Why end the match 15 seconds early?

Re: Autonomous end game
 

It could be interesting if any robots behind a certain line at the end of teleop went into autonomous mode, but robots outside of that area did not, and then any robot in autonomous mode would have some multiplier on points scored during that period (i.e. game pieces scored by manual robots are worth 1 point each in the last 15 seconds, game pieces scored by autonomous robots are worth 5). Could lead to interesting strategies.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I don't think this is the case. If you had an infrared emitter or vision target in the bonus zone, then all teams would have to do in autonomous is spin around until they find the target, then drive towards it. Already in autonomous teams have to acquire the vision target, so that isn't terribly difficult. As a programmer, I can tell you that when the camera is working and you've got KW's code, it is actually very easy to program with.

To encourage teams from spending time in matches setting up and rather spend time in build period programming robust autonomous modes, an even better idea would be to have 3 lights above your alliance station, spread across the field. At the end of teleoperated period, a single randomly-selected light will light up, and THAT is the zone where you receive bonus points.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

This is a very interesting topic. I would like to see more autonomous but there are a few problems that could come up when at the end of the game.
1) Doesn't the RC need to be reset to re-engage autonomous mode?
2) How would the RC differentiate between the beginning autonomous and ending autonomous?
3) You wouldn't see any last second efforts to race back to your side of the field and jump on a ramp like in the last two years

I like this idea but how would a robot differentiate between the red alliance side and blue alliance side. Do you remember the teaser during the final matches on Einstein last year? The red alliance home zone could have a red light and a blue alliance home zone could have a blue light and have the robot already knows which alliance it is on so it knows where to go.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

You are forgetting about the fact that there will be 5 other robots and any number of game pieces and field elements to negotiate around. Navigating autonomously when you don't have prior knowledge of the terrain is extremely complicated. SImply finding a target and driving to it wont work. Over the last two years it has become apparent how much trouble teams have even when they know approximately where the target will be.


While I don't know for sure I would tend to assume that the competition port has an extra pin that could be used, other wise it could be taken care of in the default code.


Over all I think this is a very cool idea however it is also an incredibly impractical one. We see enough robots sit still at the begining of the match, why have it happen again at the end?

Re: Autonomous end game
 

This is an idea I had earlier this season I'm a huge fan of. Have an option at the end of the game where a team can hit a button of some sort that will put their robot into autonomous control. Teams can stay in manual control and try to finish out the game; however teams that can successfully do the end task autonomously get a 3X multiplier to what they just scored.

Even better, you could set this up to be possible anytime during a match, so that during it you could go into auto-control to get your huge score bonus, then go back to manual mode (obviously this would require some new additions to the field system).

Re: Autonomous end game
 

As a programmer I can tell you that doing much more than we did this year in autonomous would require more than 15 seconds and probably more time to program. Understand that there are ways of finding the light that don't involve spinning your robot in any way, but also don't allow for a full 360 of motion. Plus, again what if something is in the way, etc, etc etc. If we had another 2-4 weeks to do this, I would say, sure maybe we can get something worked out. But as a programmer, I know that when you say, "it'd be simple", really what you mean is that it seems like it'd be simple but it ends up being way more work that it was really worth.

Also, I don't really see much of a pay off of it being at the end.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I'd love to see this, it seems like a barrel of fun.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

1) As far as I know... No. Autonomous is dictated by the IFI Field Control. When the Field is set to Auton, the bots are on Auton.

2) The code has 3 modes at the moment -- "Initiate", which is a sort of "pre-auton, start up the camera/etc" mode, then "Auton", which is activated by field control, then "Teleoperated", which is also activated by field control. To differentiate between another auton mode and the first one, add another mode and call it "auton2" or "autonend", etc.

3) Perhaps next year's game won't involve ramps. Dave's already mentioned Tangential Quadrilaterals, so I wouldn't be suprised if we get a major change in the game for '08.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

This isn't anything you don't already have to deal with though. In both 2006 and 2007, other robots would actively attempt to block you, block off your vision, shake the rack, as well as knock you off course. Opposing robots would be aimed to hit you. That would be a point of failure of many autonomous modes, and would be one of the higher-level challenges for teams looking to make theirs more robust.

And I'm serious when I say "it'd be simple". The easiest would be to simply have your robot drive forward slowly for 15 seconds and have your driver pre-aim at the end of the match. It might hit another robot, but that's a problem in autonomous as it is now as well. For a bit more difficulty, make a simplifying assumption that the light will always be in view (if it is mounted where it was in Aim High, this wouldn't be a problem), and then you can do the slow spin and acquire. Much more difficulty might be to detect impacts and attempt to drive around them.


Here are some assumptions a potential autonomous-writer can make to make it easier, and removal of each of these bumps it to a higher-level
-There are no robots in my way
-The robot is pointed the correct direction
-There are no game field elements in my way
-I can ram into the end wall at low speed without damaging my robot

You don't have to make a autonomous mode that detects other robots and field elements, avoids them, and pirouettes it's way to the end zone. You can make a simple little one, and if your robot is not pointed the right way at the end of the match, just hit the e-stop before final autonomous starts.

If you look at 2006, there were several levels of autonomous:
-Drive-forward defenders
-Drive-forward, then aim again defenders
-Stay-in-place shooters that were pre-aimed
-Shooters that drove a little, then shot
-Shooters that could drive across the field, re-acquire the camera, then shoot
-Shooters that, while shooting, could detect an impact, stop shooting, re-aim, then shoot

IMO, lack of participation in autonomous mode this year was because it was simultaneously perceived as 1) not worth it and 2) very difficult. If you make it worth going for, then teams will, at the very least, make a drive-forward mode. Aim High had plenty of participation in autonomous, at least so far as the drive-forward modes were concerned.

The pay-off would be to have a mode that is at its base level slightly more challenging than drive-forward that isn't JUST drive-forward. Plus, real engineers have to deal with variability, why don't our programmers?

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I would argue that the lack of autonomous this year was due to the risk-reward assessment. Just at one regional I saw several robots get hung up or overturned by the rack during autonomous mode.
Furthermore, the reliability of the cameras created an issue. In 2006 our dumping robot ran a fairly successful offensive autonomous mode without the camera guiding us; in 2007, without the camera, successful autonomous was nearly impossible.
If the GDC introduces a "safe area" on the field that perhaps only autonomously controlled robots could enter, I would certainly be in favor of that. Maybe when a robot crosses a certain threshold, drivers aren't allowed to touch the controls until the robot crosses back into the teleoperated area...? Some sort of door or gate that restricts use to that area...?
This could get very complicated very quickly.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

The game for this would have to be something that would prevent your robot from getting tangeled in the game element (This year, the rack would cause problems).
Also, If there was a problem on the field then there would be serious problems at the end. If theres a problem wiht auto in the beginning it wouldnt matter because there would be no points scored or anything. If it malfunctioned at the end then there would be a BIG problem.
But, i would love to see this happen. It would make auto mode more exciting (like it was in 05)

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I think putting Autonomous at the end of the game would mix it up a bit. Challenge the teams a little bit further. When they added the lights a few years ago, it created a whole new programming level, but having to do autonomous from an unknown spot on the field with the robot in an unknown position...it could be good.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I truely believe that if the reward was there (IE enough points) then you would see some wild automomous modes at the end of the matches.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

If a robot tips the way the game is now there's always a bit of risk that you'll get hit, but in general the other drivers don't want to drive on your tipped robot. With autonomous at the end I think we'd see a lot more damage to tipped robots.

Also if the game is anything like this year's game it would be WAY harder to score (how is the robot supposed to know which spiders are full & which are available?).

But if the game were similar to Aim High I think endgame autonomous would be way too easy as long as the drivers collected balls & positioned themself in front of the goal prior to autonomous. Then their autonomous would just have to run their scoring mechanism.

Also doesn't FIRST usually have some sort of bonus at the end for ramping or hanging or something? (I honestly don't know as the only FRC games I've seen are Rack & Roll and Aim High). I would think the point of that would be increasing collaberation between alliance partners (definitely a point in 2007) and perhaps also giving "simpler" robots a chance to earn points even if they don't have a scoring mechanism. Do we really want to replace this with an autonomous period (which we have already)?

Sorry for the long post -- the more I typed the more stuff came to mind. :)

Re: Autonomous end game
 

Autonomous at the end or beginning of the match...I like the idea of both ends. I would like to see more points or advantages for solving the autonomous problem. A great deal of time and sweat is involved in making the system work and I feel the effort should be better compensated.

Ken

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I think FIRST would like to see more developed autonmous modes before they would consider moving the autonomous mode or adding another..

There would be way more variables to consider and way more obstacles to maneuver if it were at the end, along with the added danger of having robots possibly go where they are not supposed to.

I love the idea, but I think we need to see a consistent attempt at autonmous modes from a lot more teams before we'll see the auto mode at the end.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

It sounds like a good idea maybe in a few years, but for now, I think that there needs to be some more development in the programming field, and the programming technology. Look at the difference from 2001 to 2007 and how much more advanced not only the robot controller is, but also the sensors and cameras. These things have become more affordable, and I think by 2009 the programming technology will be advanced enough to complete that task. But for now, I think that it is way to complicated to work with, and what if a robot flips over, or gets stuck in a situation..... You could seriously damage your robot, and other things.... I definitely think that this would need some development, but I can definitely see this happening in years to come, just not now.... (Please not now!)

Re: Autonomous end game
 

They'd see them if they were easier or worth more. As it is now, the payoff for spending another week building/practicing is more than the payoff for letting the programmers fiddle with the robot for a week, so teams won't do it. If you look at 2006, just about every team had at least a simple defensive autonomous mode, which is all an first-year endgame autonomous mode would require.

I don't see how there are more out-of-control variables. You can control your robot's position at the end the match, so long as the driver knows where he/she should be. You can't control the positions of other robots, but you can't do that now. If your robot is entangled or will cause itself to become entangled, there is always the e-stop. Autonomous modes as they are now are capable of damaging the robot, I've done it a few times. The key is communication between the programming team and the drive team so they know what it will do and when to e-stop. Perhaps a change in rules so the drivers can carry the e-stop button behind the line with them would work, with a rule that any robots e-stopped DURING (not before) endgame autonomous score no points.

Here are the cliffs notes of my counterarguments. Note that I assume that the teleoperated period and the endgame autonomous would be seperated by 5-15 seconds of decision time for the drivers to decide whether or not to e-stop.

Someone: The robot might get damaged
Me: They can easily get damaged with the current autonomous mode. I have personally written modes that have damaged our robot.

Someone: The robot might get damaged in a noticeable way during the match, and running autonomous mode will hurt it further.
and Someone: The robot can get entangled or otherwise be in a nasty position
Me: Then e-stop it before the final autonomous section begins

Someone: The robot might get damaged during the match in an unnoticeable way that is inflamed by autonomous mode
Me: How could a robot get damaged in such a critical way that the driver will never inflame it, but the autonomous mode will? Wouldn't this inevitably either be inflamed by the driver? Sounds like a mean way to blame programmers :)

Someone: The robot can be ANYWHERE on the field when it starts
Me: If your autonomous mode can't handle that, then train your driver to place it where it needs to be, and if he can't, e-stop it before autonomous mode starts.

Someone: Other robots can be anywhere on the field when it starts
Me: With some limits, they can be anywhere on the field now, too. Fast robots could be on the other side of the rack in 5-10 seconds to abuse you. In 2006 when you only had to cross a field, you were getting purposely rammed by other robots almost immedietely.

Someone: But other robots might bump/ram us in their modes
Me: They do that now. In 2006 in particular, that was a widely-employed tactic in autonomous mode, with sometimes 2/3s of the robots playing a blocking or knocking role at high speed. Solution: don't drive quickly and build a robust robot with large bumpers.

Someone: The programming/sensing tools aren't there yet
Me: I feel confident saying that even now, the limiting factor in autonomous modes isn't the sensors, tools, and hardware, but rather the limited experience most HS students have programming robust code, which isn't going to improve given the 4 year churn inherent with a high school contest.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I'd like to see matches begin and end with autonomous operation. That would motivate teams to think. Thinking is good.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I say lets give the most dramatic moments of the competition over to the programmers. I am confident that the GDC can develop a game that addresses much of the concern listed here... however there are ways of adding to the importance of sensors and programming other than just changing the auto mode.

For instance consider a game where you are trying to put objects into four different goals. At various times in the game an IR beacon would turn on over top of one of the goals, thus doubling the value of any balls deposited during that period. Drivers would not be able to tell which goal was being doubled and when unless the robot told them. Or perhaps the goals only open at certain times and the IR beacon goes on 10-15 seconds ahead of the goal opening so that robots that sense IR can get lined up to score... or defend... first.

Or perhaps a game that involves a great number of very small game pieces.... coloured golf balls for instance... that need to be sorted in order to receive maximum bonus points. There would be so many pieces that there would be no way the drivers could sort them fast enough, so it would have to be done autonomously on-board the robot in order to have a dominant machine.

If there is sufficient incentive to develop a good auto mode, then teams will allocate their resources to making it happen. I know this year had we decided to focus on auto we could have easily dropped mecanum drive for a repeat of our quite successful 6wd platform from last year and gained at least a week of build time for programming and testing auto, rather than drive code.

The last big change to the game format was going from two to three robots. I think it is time for another change... or changes (how about a slightly larger playing field) to shake things up a bit.

Jason

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I think auto at the end would be great, but I think you would need something like the endzone rules we had this year to give teams a chance to setup to perform the auto task.

To answer the question about various levels of skill in auto-mode programming, I would like to see multiple options (like the start of the tetra game 2 years ago). Alternatively, an autonomous task could be created that would allow a capable robot assist an incapable robot (an example could be having a good auto mode robot could tow a non auto mode robot home to an end zone).

Re: Autonomous end game
 

I think automatic functions (i.e. internal ball sorting) is a great thing to encourage. For game change though, I think changing the starting conditions could be interesting. Have the game be 3 on 3, but have one member of each alliance start at the far end.

Re: Autonomous end game
 

This year you could have no autonomous mode and still win the match because there was so little you could do. If the autonomous mode was at the end of the game more of an emphasis would be placed on it and it would make the game far more interesting for this reason.