WOW--1270 DISQUALIFIED -- Did I miss something?
 

I’ve been reading all the threads about the race to the finals and I have not found anything said about the call during the semi finals (330,910,1270 -vs- 71,179,233) where team 1270 the “Red Dragon” was disqualified.

I remember watching the match and saw the “Beast” put up a good fight in trying to position itself to score. I also saw the “Beast” flip over as it was trying to push the “Red Dragon “out of the way. Nothing in what I saw would warrant a disqualification. Is there something I missed?

Overall, it was a great tournament. In my book, teams 330, 910, and 1270 were awesome!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Perhaps what a lot of people missed was the score of that match. The ref could issue a red card simply for effect. That alliance had already lost.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Ya they lost without the DQ, but did you miss the fact that they immediately disabled 1270 for the remainder of the match (near the beginning of the match)? I'm not saying anything about whether it was a good call or not (because I haven't seen a good view of it). I am just saying that it definitely affected the outcome of the match. If 1270 had put up 1 tube or climbed 330's ramps they would have tied or won.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Does anyone have video of this match? I would really like to see exactly what happened (I was watching my team, then heard cries from across the aisle
[71 & 233 was sitting there] and then saw 71 on its back). The video on the blue alliance shows them, then shows them on the ground and skips the whole falling over part.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I too wondered about this. I didn't have the best view and it all happened way too quick, but to me it looked like 1270 was at least a robot's length away when Hammond fell. Its not something that needs a huge argument or discussion about...what's done is done...but it'd be nice to understand what really did happen.

Kev

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I was down on the field as human player but I didn't even see what happened on this one. I think what it was is that 1270 did push them over but it was accidental. The reason it was called as harshly as it was was a lack of bumpers. If 1270 had bumpers it probaly wouldn't have been red card worthy, but I honestly don't know.
But to echo what Kevin is saying, please don't make this bigger then it has to be. What's done is done, and now it's time to focus on the post season.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I don’t think bumpers played a role. The 1270 robot is only 4½ in. off the ground. The Beast seems quite a bit higher and top heavy. What I heard from those on the floor is that the Beast drove up onto the Red Dragon and was flipped over as the Red Dragon drove forward to hang the ringer. I would still like to see some video just to make sure.

I agree, we should not make a big deal of this--even if it cost 330, 910, and 1270 a run at the world championship. It’s only a game. By the way, does anyone have the name of the official that made the call?

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I watched the match from the stands and thought I saw both robots with ringers trying to score the same spider on the scorer's side of the field. The next thing I saw was 71 flipping backwards and the 1270 robot backing away with the ringer still in its gripper. The head ref immediately ran over to the red alliance station and disabled 1270.

When I got home, I watched the match again (I had recorded NASA TV's broadcast), but during the critical moment, the TV coverage was showing 330 and 179 battling on the crowd side of the rack. The next view had 71 already on the ground and the ref heading towards the red alliance station. Given the head ref's decisive action, he must have felt that 1270 had intentionally tipped 71.

After the very rough play I had just witnessed on Curie, I was somewhat surprised to see the red card flashed on 1270. The message here is that different referees will have different levels of tolerance for aggressive play. After 13-14 matches with a referee crew that "just let's them play", a less tolerant referee can catch you off guard.

It's a hard thing to swallow, but the ref's have a very difficult job and are doing their best to enforce the rules.

P.S. I had posted this a few days ago in the "Einstein?" thread, but it was rather off-topic there. Sorry for the "re-run"...

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Facts:

1) Team 71 and Team 1270, both were carrying a tube and they were both going for one of the middle spiders on the side of the rack.

2) It seemed like team 71's robot needed a little work on CG, because after interaction with 1270's bot it started rocking back and forth (only rocked probably twice).

3) 1270 drove forward while BEAST was rocking back and forth; the BEAST fell on it's back.

I was impressed with both robots and the fight they put up in their own division and on Einstein. Congratulations.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

It happened fast, but it did appear that 1270 went under the robot that got flipped over before it backed away. I am not one to spend much time on the issue of who did what when one robot ends up under another robot. It would have been hard for the referree to interpret it as anything but intentional tipping. People sitting with me saw it similarly.

I think that the lack of bumpers on 1270 was a factor. If 1270 had used standard bumpers it would not have gone under the robot that fell over and I think that the outcome of the interaction (at least the penalty, but likely the win) would have been different. A top heavy robot might have still fallen over, but the referee would have seen the situation differently.

The lesson I take away here is that putting standard bumpers on a robot is a really good idea, but then this is a lesson that I see played at every regional event, every year.

Eugene

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I agree that the Red Dragon was under the Beast. That is why I am still puzzled by the call. It should have been the Beast penalized 10 pts for being outside the bumper zone as stated in rule “G35”. When a robot drives on top of the opponent’s robot they are also in violation of rule “G35” because “a robot may not attach to and/or climb onto a ROBOT on an opposing ALLIANCE…”

Also, rule “R37” does not make bumpers mandatory and the lack of bumpers on your robot should not be used against you during an infraction of rule “G35”.

So, what am I missing here?

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Was 1270 E-stopped by the ref? If so, yes I missed that. As did the announcer, as I seem to recall a comment about them being unable to move, and he didn't mention a disable.

Perhaps the ruling was that even though 1270 wasn't shaped like a wedge, it ended up acting like a wedge and thus the tipping was their fault. I don't know, I'm just speculating like all the rest of us.

Oh, and the head ref on the Finals was Chief Ref Aiden Browne, who is also a member of the GDC I believe.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Here is my 2 cents since i watched it happen

71 and 1270 were both going for a spider leg. 1270 hit 71, which caused 71 to begin to rock (maybe 3 times at most). While rocking 1270 drove up under 71. While 71 was tilted back and on 1270, 1270 continued to drive forward, thus tipping 71.

To the ref this would seem like an intentional tip, because 1270 didn't stop moving to show it was not there fault if 71 flipped. If 1270 had taken their hands off from the joysticks so the ref could see they were not moving, and 71 had still fallen over i believe the call would have been different.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

This situation is up to the refs because last year the same thing happened with my team we hit a ball going high speed and got up on 2 wheels and then a team drove under us and then pushed us till we tipped, this was not called a tip. So i guess it is a case by case situation.

I was the beast tip on the webcast, and saw beast go on its back and then 1270 stopped 2 feet from the rack, not moving the rest of the match

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Fixit,
the rule regarding driving up opponents is related to ramps.

Facts are facts - no dispute there.
Both had a tube trying to score on the rack, if one tips the other in the process - it may or may not have been a penalty.

If one drove under the other, while not trying to score a tube - it may or may not have been the reason for the penalty.

The ref has the discretion of calling penalties.
Since we are NOT the ref, everything stated about why it was called, is just our opinions.

Did you miss something?

Yep, the ref's decision is final AND we don't always understand them. Sometimes the gray areas are difficult for everyone to agree on. Making the call is a tough job, most the time the ref's are right - sometimes they make mistakes (they are human), and often the results won't make everyone very happy.

Time to move on.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

You are correct, nothing will change and all rules are final.

You are also correct that the call could have gone either way. The reason for this thread is to find out why the call was made in the first place. What rules were used? It is also to determine whether a mistake was made so that we can learn from it. If we make mistakes and learn from them, then we become better for it. If, however, mistakes are never brought out and discussed—what have we learned?

Was it a good call? I truly believe that the official felt it was. After watching hundreds of matches – I’m not sure all would agree. There were many calls during the year that lack consistency. This in it self is a great lesson. As part of our scouting reports we should take into consideration who the officials are and how they call the game.

As long as we stick to a serious discussion this thread can help us all.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

We were in the stands and thought 1270 broke down. We were quite surprised, along with many others, that 1270 was disqualified and disabled by the referee.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I'm not not sure of the refs reasoning, but it was different than what was used in Curie QF 34 when 1270 got under both 648 and 1732 while playing defense next to the rack in the match. Neither tipped--648 drove across them, they backed off 1732. Only the 1732 encounter is shown in the video.

Looking at the low profile of 1270's bot versus the others I see how their behavior could be interpreted as contrary to the intent of the wedge/tipping rules and therefore overly aggressive. Looking at their profile it isn't a wedge per se, so I can also see why a ref might not call it a violation. It is a legitimate matter of interpretation.

A yellow card in QF 34 might have made 1270 a little more cautious and let them avoid the tipping on Einstein.

Under the circumstances I can see why 1270 and allies would be frustrated by the change in interpretation, but keeping things in perspective, they did have a great run in a fun game.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I was the field coach of 1270 and I was looking directly at what happened on Einstein. 1270 and 71 were both going for the same spot on the spider, both had a tube, and both were pushing each other. 71 and 1270 were BOTH going forward. 71 while driving forward went over top of 1270 and the forward driving of the robots caused 71 to tip.

Now I am not sure exactly what the call to DQ 1270 was based on, whether it was that the ref believed he had witnessed intentional tipping or what, but I can tell you now that it was not. That was just a battle of CG and 71 was top heavy. Now as far as " if 1270 had bumpers" or "if they were just a little taller" , I believe the game rules have to agree and stay in the guidelines of the robot rules. As soon as there is a set ground clearance or a requirement for bumpers than those will become valid points toward the call. I say this not to start a war but simply to make a point. One could argue with these and say "if only 71 was a little lower to the ground" or "if only the CG of 71 was a little lower".

Whats done is done and it is what it is. Though this call hurt us a lot it is all over and done.


Again I am not trying to start a war so please do not take it that way.

I would also like to say thankyou to 330 and 910 for accepting us into your alliance. I had a lot of fun playing alongside you guys and would like to say that both teams are awesome both robot and members. Hope to see you next year!!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Thanks for this post. Your reference to Curie QF 34 is very useful. It is true that 1270 is low to the ground, but its design is not in violation of any rules. The robot sits 4.5” above the ground with a CG that is directly in the center of the robot at 6.5” off the ground, making the robot very difficult to push around and virtually impossible to flip—that’s the way it was designed.

Robots that are top heavy and try to push the Red Dragon do have a tendency to tip. This match is a good example of that. As 1732 tried to push the Red Dragon from the side, it started to tip over. The Red Dragon was perpendicular to 1732 at the time. The 1732 driver did the only thing he could do and that was to regain control of the robot and move away from the Red Dragon. This was a smart move. If 1732 had continued, it would have flipped over just as 71 did in the semi-finals.

I’m simply pointing out that trying to push the Red Dragon will cause the aggressor to flip. Should this be a penalty? Who should get the yellow/red card? It seems that quite a bit is up to the interpretation of the referee. What if the referee gets it wrong -- what recourse is there?

I am still trying to find out what the call was on the field. Maybe the referee saw something no one else did. I would love to see a video of this match that clearly shows what happened.

Thanks for your understanding!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Fixit,
Glad to see that you updated your info. Now it makes sense why you are attempting to gain a better understanding for the ref's decision.

As I said before, unless Aiden decides to respond - you/we will never know WHY? That is his choice.

For everyone else that saw it or didn't see it - we are all speculating why the ref made the call. Only he knows why.

All year (every year) there are inconsistancies in the way rules are interpretted and decision regarding penalties are made. This year is no different - this match is no different.

Bumpers or no bumpers - robots are not suppose to be designed to flip others over (passively or otherwise). We've been through that debate at nauseum, over the past years (led to the no wedge shape rule). The circular debate of whom is at fault (the one that drove on top, or the one that drove underneath, or the one that just sat there and innocently did nothing) is never ending. The only people that truely know are the students controlling the machines - they know if they were driving forward, backing away, or doing neither.

I suppose we could ask for another build regulation regarding what the ends of the robots with out bumpers MUST be designed to meet, in order to help mitigate the problem. I just hate to see another requirement that could constrain creativity and suck away materials and resources to meet it.

Debating what rules were or weren't interpretted by the ref in order to rationalize a particular call, won't change anything - now or in the future.

As you suggested in an earlier post, I'll leave this one open as long as it doesn't get out of hand.

Mike Aubry
Engineering Lead
Chief Delphi

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Mike -- I agree!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Upon speaking with the head referee, the teams were told that the Red Dragon was disqualified because of "contact made outside the bumper zone." Maybe we need more than one referee calling the final rounds so we have a consensus and limit any bias.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

How many striped shirts were around the field? Six or so, many with "Head Referee" on the back? There is more than one ref there, but as for talking to each other during a match, that takes too long. Also, I'm pretty sure the head ref has no team affiliation.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

In the event of a dispute such as ours, they would make time. In a disqualification situation, they should make time because it's too important a call to leave up to one individual. Besides, other sports have more than one referee making a call -- why not FIRST? Also, I am pretty sure the referees are not randomly picked from the general population. They all have an affiliation of one sort or another.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

That is the way the play was called. It is over. It's unfortunate that your team got DQed, but thats just the way it is. Bringing up the issue over and over isn't going to change anything.

I am personally offended that you would imply that the referees on the field were biased. None of the referees on that field were against your team, or any other team in the competition. To say that the referees made a call you disagree with is one thing, to say that they made a call because they were biased is not right. You should really think before you post. By making implications like this, it only reflects poorly on you and your team.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

It is very hard to get everyone to agree with the same thing. If I may think that it was a right call, you may not. At the same time, keep in mind that all the head refs were not the same for every field at championship. Couple of fields allowed rough play, couple of fields didn't. Thats just how it is. Now when it comes to Einstein the head ref was Aidan Browne, if you didn't know, he is also part of the GDC committee, which means he is one of the people who makes the rules for the game.

At the rate FIRST is growing, it is very hard to keep everyone happy. Championship was last month, it's may now... let's move on to the offseasons, think about which strategies are you going to use to bring the offseason golds home. You guys have an amazing robot and I was privilaged to see it in action in person at the Florida regional and at the Championship event.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I must say that if you believe that people are 100% unbiased then you are clearly wrong.

However I would venture to say that Aiden Brown is they most unbiased person you could have as a referee. But after watching that match over and over, and having seen it with my own eyes (i was watching 71 because i wanted to see those neat ramps deploy since they are similar to ours).

Personally I would have made the same call (including against my own team) There was contact made outside of the given bumper zone that resulted in a team being tipped over. If this contact had not been made then there would have been no tipping of the Beast. Also your drivers continued to drive while the Beast rocked and then finally went over. If it had not been a DQ for hitting outside of the bumper zone I would not have been suprised if you had been DQ'd for intentional tipping, because after looking at the footage and pictures that i have and that have been posted it looks as though the Beast was tipped on purpose (I don't know what happened since i am not one of your drivers. all im saying is what it looked like)

But now as for the comment that there should be a group of Head Refs. I do not agree with this. Soon people are going to be asking for Instant Replay to determine things on the field. When will this choas stop. Every year there are a group of people who aren't happy with the ref-ing at the Championship. Given sometimes it is sketchy, the only real thing that they need to work on is getting unity to the calls made.

Sorry your team didn't win that match, but it just happened. You can't win them all. Best of luck next year

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

I agree with that. But, implying that referees are making calls based on how much they like a team, rather than legitimate rules is offensive.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

What makes me wonder about this call is another group of calls made on another field (go figure):

254 (Cheesy Poofs) was a rather light robot with a relatively high center of gravity, at nationals it was exposed that if you hit them in a certain way, they would tip over. This eventuall meant that for the paltry sum of ten points the other team could force their opponents to go two against 3.
This eventually lost them the match.

Should this be the same call?

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Sorry you took offense. I was not implying that the referee favored one team over another. What I meant by “bias” is a personal preference. If you participated in sports, you’ll know what I’m talking about (e.g., home field advantage). As noted throughout this website, some officials were more tolerant of pushing and shoving than others during the competition. This in itself shows bias in judging—not a team preference. Bias is used here to show that people see things differently.

Would you not agree that in the event of a dispute, a consensus of several individuals is much preferable to the opinion of one person? Consensus has the tendency to nullify any bias. That’s why in many big sporting events there is more than one final decision maker. Whether it be more than one referee or instant replay, disputed calls are reviewed. It’s our human nature to want to get it right. I’m sure you agree.

Again, sorry you took offense. Please do not be biased against me for trying to find the answer to a very simple question: What rule was used to disqualify Team 1270 in the Semifinals? I’ve emailed Aiden Browne twice – no response. I contacted FIRST – no response to my question.

Again: What was the ruling that was used to disqualify Team 1270? The announcer after the match said that 1270 was disqualified for “excessive aggressiveness.” The referee told the alliance partners that it was for “contact made outside the bumper zone.” What rule was broken?

Don’t get me wrong, the tournament was great, and we had a blast. And please do not hold it against the entire team that I have an inquisitive nature. That would be unfair -- just as it would be unfair to judge the entire FIRST organization because of one individual.

Please, let’s keep this thread serious. We have speculated enough. If anyone out there knows what the official ruling was – please respond.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Where can we get copies of the footage and pictures that you have of this match?

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Thanks, and I agree, it's time to move on!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

What was the ruling?

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

My point exactly, people see things differently. When it really counts you should have more than one person making the call.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

My advice is to let this go, and start thinking about the off season, and next season. Here is what I'll leave you with.

9.6.2Referee Interaction Rules
<T04> The Head Referee has the ultimate authority on the field during the competition. THE
HEAD REFEREE RULINGS ARE FINAL! The referee will not review recorded replays
under any circumstance.
<T05> If a team needs clarification on a ruling or score, a pre-college student from that team
should address the Head Referee after a field reset has been signaled. Depending on
timing, the Head Referee may postpone any requested discussion until the end of the
subsequent match. Head Referees will only discuss calls, scores, penalties or match
outcomes with pre-college team members.

As outlined in the manual, if you wanted to know what the official ruling was, or had questions about it, a pre-college drive team member should have brought up the issue with the head referee right after the match. I think all this energy could be put to a lot better use. This is all I have to say on this matter.

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

Thanks, I am well aware of all of this, and we followed the required procedures. I simply want to know what the official rulling was. You were there--do you know what the official ruling was? It seems to me that in a match of this magnitude the official rulling should have been quickly anounced -- it was not!

Re: WOW-- Did I miss something?
 

for those looking for video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41lMfJqLPas
This was captured field-side during the match.