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-   -   Grades and Student Travel, Etc (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57245)

Steve W 28-04-2007 10:32

Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
"FIRST has the power to reduce burnout by taking a close look at what their mission really is. Inspiration, if that is the mission, can exist by reducing the constriction put upon teams. Shipping rules, game rules that require teams to use the new technology to be competitive, and finally rules that constrain time before and after ship date are but a few areas that FIRST can assist the program with."

There are some that recognize this quote but many who won't. I was written by a wise and seasoned member of the FIRST community. I came across a VERY long article written by this person and wondered why I had not ever seen it before. There are many enlightening points of view and history that many will find rewarding and interesting.

I would like to start this thread to bring to the CD community gems such as this that can help, warn and inspire us as we come down from this years experience and look at whether it has been worth the while. If you have such articles please point us to them.

This quote came from Mike Martus of Team 47 fame. It can be found on Team 47 website http://team.chiefdelphi.com/ . The writings can be found at http://team.chiefdelphi.com/story.htm . It is a long read but very interesting. Just think, of all of the time that I have known Mike and CD 47 I have not taken the time (till now) to explore their website. Shame on me.

THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS THE STUDENT GRADES AND TRAVEL REQUIREMENTS, ETC>

Kelly 28-04-2007 16:09

Re: Interesting Quote
 
That was one of the most articulate articles I have read about FIRST in a while. That said, there was section of the article that bothered me enough to bring it up here. As the author described his team's selection process, he seemed to focus on the fact that students need to be making good grades before joining the team. To me, this contradicted the theme of inspiration that was prevalent throughout the rest of the article. Students who are already making good grades have already, at least in a small way, been inspired by school. There are plenty of capable students with sub par grade point averages who have yet to be inspired and it seems a shame to deny them an opportunity as inspiring as FIRST simply because no one has shown them why academics can be worthwhile.

Steve W 28-04-2007 16:37

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 622989)
There are plenty of capable students with sub par grade point averages who have yet to be inspired and it seems a shame to deny them an opportunity as inspiring as FIRST simply because no one has shown them why academics can be worthwhile.

When you have a good reputation and an exciting program then the lure of the team can act as an incentive for students to raise their grades. Mike did not state what the grade level was either. Many sport teams run the same way. Many have to get C average or better to be able to try out for the team.

Mike, can you help us out a little with your teams policies and how they work out?

Rich Kressly 28-04-2007 20:10

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 622993)
When you have a good reputation and an exciting program then the lure of the team can act as an incentive for students to raise their grades. Mike did not state what the grade level was either. Many sport teams run the same way. Many have to get C average or better to be able to try out for the team.

Mike, can you help us out a little with your teams policies and how they work out?

Steve, you bring up an awesome point. I'm not sure about how 47 does business, but in the time I was with 103, the rule was "honor roll" to participate. We then instituted a peer tutoring program to support the effort. Traditionally, we had at least 4-5 students who were NOT honor roll students before joining 103, but because of their desire to participate and go to competitions, they "elevated" their academic performance and got help from team members when necessary. It was rare that we had to leave a student behind for falling short.

Kelly 29-04-2007 15:26

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Our team has found that there is no corelation between a student's grades and his or her potential to contribute to our team. Consequently, GPAs play no role in whether any particular student is welcome on our team. Actually, we don't specifically exclude anyone. We've found that our teams whittle themselves down as the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don't belong on the team stop coming.

Chris Fultz 29-04-2007 15:44

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 622989)
As the author described his team's selection process, he seemed to focus on the fact that students need to be making good grades before joining the team.

234 has a similar rule and i fully agree with it. part of FIRST is to inspire, but it is also to create the next generation of scientists, engineers and technologists. Students who are already struggling with their coursework could fall even further behind with the added load of being on the robotics team.

We also have strict travel requirements that require students to get approval from every teacher that they can "academically" afford to miss class while on a trip. A few kids have stayed home once - and usually that motivates them to step up their performance.

We find that this motivation keeps students working hard to maintain their grades. we offer tutoring help for anyone who needs it, and many students study together while we are traveling. More than one parent has said that the risk of not being on the team and able to travel has helped their child focus on schoolwork and grades.

As good as FIRST is, just being on a FIRST team will not get you into a top college or get you your dream job. Academic performance does, and that has to come first, with being a part of a FIRST team a bonus on the activities and involvement line.

/OFF TOPIC/: HAve we taken this thread way off of the intended topic? /BACK ON TOPIC/

Shelbo 29-04-2007 19:40

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 623244)
Our team has found that there is no corelation between a student's grades and his or her potential to contribute to our team. Consequently, GPAs play no role in whether any particular student is welcome on our team. Actually, we don't specifically exclude anyone. We've found that our teams whittle themselves down as the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don't belong on the team stop coming.


Our team operates the same way...everyone is welcome regardless of scholastic ability. We have some high scholastic abilities, some regular honor roll, some vocational students. They don't all attend the same school and our team does not have a "club" feel to it. It really feels like a team, with each person finding a place where they are needed. Everyone contributes, we all get along (usually-build season can get stressful and tempermental with sugar excesses and sleep deprivation), and we all learn from each other. The existing team is great about welcoming new students and helping them get acclimated to the workshop, personalities, and the pace of the team. During build season, the students are encouraged to bring their school work to the workshop and the mentors and other students are there to help/tutor if they need it. It truly is an extended family atmosphere.

-Shelbo's mom

Kelly 29-04-2007 19:56

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz (Post 623245)
As good as FIRST is, just being on a FIRST team will not get you into a top college or get you your dream job.

While it's true that participating in FIRST won't get you a top college, is that really the most important thing? There are plenty of decent colleges out there, and anyone resourceful enough to build a robot in six weeks should be able to find one that's right for them. Also, I have never heard of any employer asking a college-educated potential employee about their high school GPA. In the long run, the hands on experience from FIRST is way more useful than straight A's.

santosh 29-04-2007 20:06

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Our team also functiosn somwhat like most other programs. We allow anyone who wants to participate to do just that no matter what their grades are. However, there are some limitations to that. We have a rule that says you must have all A's and B's to travel with your teacher's permission. There are rare occurances where that rule is bent and that is if the teacher says that their grade book is not current online and that the student in fact is passing.

Also, our lead mentor keeps track of all 120+ kids in one way or another and makes sure that if a person isn't doing so hot in a class that he sits down to talk with them and makes sure that they know school comes first and that hif they don't get their grades up, they won't miss school. That usually gets them crackin.
I know this from experience ;)

JaneYoung 29-04-2007 20:18

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Part of being a member of a FIRST team is maintaining our responsibilities and commitments. Students have responsibilities to their other classes, to doing their homework, to maintaining their academic grades. The mentors have the responsibility of their jobs and maintaining their level of production and efficiency, all the while participating in FIRST.

That is real world.

Inspiration and recognition of science and technology is not something that takes the place of your education for 6 weeks or 12 weeks or ever. Not on a high school level, not on a college level. It takes place along side it.

Teams who have developed systems that support the students participating in the build and competition season, realize that the balance is difficult. There are only so many hours in a day. There are only so many directions a person can move in at one time. The tutoring and the fact that students know going in that there are expectations regarding their responsibilities to their classes and grades help the individual and the team in the short term and in the long term. FIRST teams come from all sorts of backgrounds and environs. School systems aren't the same across the board and don't provide the same level of support across the board. Wise leaders develop ways to help students succeed in both the short term and the long term, the long term being a successful college career and obtaining employment in their chosen fields of science, technology, and others.

Lisa Perez 29-04-2007 20:30

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
When I was a student on Teams 573 and 1, we had to be receiving no lower than a C in all of our classes in order to travel. If we were missing school for an event, we were required to study for a given amount of time (usually 2-4 hours, depending on the amount of time absent).

While I think all students should be given the opportunity to participate in the FIRST program given its nature, I think it's a very good idea to implement some kind of grade policy for travel. I like to see it not as something that will steer students away from the program, but as another challenge, in addition to the challenges of design, build, and competition.

Jeremiah Johnson 29-04-2007 20:37

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Students on team 648 MUST maintain a "C" average to be on the team. Similar to the local sports teams and Iowa/Illinois state law there is a procedure followed before dismissal that involves putting them on academic probation for a number of weeks until their grades are sufficient. We had several problems with this in 2007.

We've also got an attendance policy in place that requires students to attend at least 75% of all meetings during the build season and a few before/after. There are exceptions made for conflicting activities, especially band and work. This ensures that the students come and participate, not letting down their teammates. It also makes sure they'll learn.

luciaes 29-04-2007 21:38

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I think that anyone should be able to be on a FIRST team, regardless of grades. Why cant someone with low grades contribute to a team? with a basketball or football team i can see grades being a factor, but with robotics its completely different. Robotics is a place ware you can learn so much from being on a team, i highly doubt that you can learn as much on a basketball team than you can on a FIRST team.

Saying someone cant be on the team because they have low grades is saying "well you don't do good in school, so you don't deserve a chance to learn anything here and be inspired to do good just because you currently don't do so good"

Personally i think I'm doing better in school now that I'm in robotics and have a much higher desire to learn, and now i might be taking extra classes over the summer just to learn more and get farther in school, and if i wasn't allowed on the team because of my grades i would have never got the chance to see that.

John Gutmann 29-04-2007 21:40

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I will let the leader of 340 talk more about it if he sees the thread, but on 340 there is some grade requirement (which I cannot remember) but the more important part of my post is that team members cannot have any disciplinary referrals. I don't know if anybody here know what a referral is but it is basically getting written up.

-John

ComputerWhizIA 29-04-2007 22:15

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 623258)
Also, I have never heard of any employer asking a college-educated potential employee about their high school GPA. In the long run, the hands on experience from FIRST is way more useful than straight A's.

Unfortunately, colleges do look at your GPA as either equal or greater in value then robotics or any club. So, I doubt a low GPA, can be balanced out by being part of FIRST. The good news is that FIRST with a good GPA makes a resume that stands out from the pack. First most engineering colleges look for things that show that you are interested in engineering, this is were FIRST fills in the gap. Second, FIRST also provides the ability to become a leader and also develop other virtues that colleges look for. High School is just a stepping stone to College, which is a stepping stone to a career; meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.

Chris Fultz 29-04-2007 22:31

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 623258)
While it's true that participating in FIRST won't get you a top college, is that really the most important thing? There are plenty of decent colleges out there, and anyone resourceful enough to build a robot in six weeks should be able to find one that's right for them. Also, I have never heard of any employer asking a college-educated potential employee about their high school GPA. In the long run, the hands on experience from FIRST is way more useful than straight A's.

When you apply for scholarships, GPA will likely be a determining factor. Why, people who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.

When you apply to colleges and universities, you will find that many of them use your GPA as a first screen. Why, if you cannot do the high school work, then you probably cannot do the college level work. The study skills need to be learned early and carried through. So, GPA is very important. Other activities, including FIRST, are part of the next level review. You have to pass the first screen to get looked at for the second screen.

When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won't even get reviewed. Then they will look at other involvement and activities and decide if they would like an interview with you.

Also, most major companies do not recruit from every college in the country - they simply cannot afford to. They go to schools where they know the programs and know the quality of students that are graduating - so getting into a "top school" vs. a "decent" school can have a profound impact on the rest of your life.

In the long run, it is a balance of school work (keeping score by GPA) and other activities (family, faith, volunteering, clubs, teams, etc.) that will allow you to succeed.

Mike Martus 29-04-2007 22:39

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
The overall grade requirement of 2.5 to apply to the team is only slightly higher than the requirement for sports teams at our high school. We (the coaches) have long maintained that having standards for grades shows the students view on education and its importance to them. When evaluating a student in the application process and find a student that would benifit from being on the FIRST Team but is not meeting the GPA we take the GPA rule to a new level. The student is accepted to the team on provision that grades improve from that point. We provide tutoring if needed and work with the teachers to come up with a plan to solve the learning problems.

There is a major difference in a student that struggles with academics and a student that has a low regard for their education. Both are problems but both have different solutitions.

There is a strong correlation of students with low grades, behavior probems and attendance issues. I think we can all agree that behavior problems and attendance are critical issues for a team member. Dealing with behavior problems of team members will destroy your team flavor, and drive away many great students.

Yes, in my article you can view the GPA requirement as a contridiction to inspiration of a student who could benifit greatly. In the past 12 years as a coach and team leader in FIRST the benifits of the GPA in most cases outweigh the negative. I challenge every student I come in contact with to be a "Life Long Learner". This can take several forms including college, military and on the job training both formal and informal.

Your GPA in High School and College is a reflection of your cooperation with educational processes, nothing more. It is NOT a measurement of how much you know or how much you can learn.

Mike Martus

Tim Delles 29-04-2007 23:06

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.

Scott Carpman 29-04-2007 23:08

Re: Interesting Quote
 
I am offended at the thought of academic prerequisites for joining a robotics team, since such a proposal would eliminate me from the program I love the most. Although I do have a B average overall , I am a horrible math student. Case in point, my highest math grade on a test this year was a 75, with the average score being in the 50s. Under some teams policies, this would bar me from joining the team. Based on my expereinces, I agree with Kelly from FRC #1418's findings, that "the people who belong on the team come to meetings and get things accomplished while the people who don't belong on the team stop coming."

This statement is further backed by the average commute time of my team. Due to the nature of my school, students are not from any one neighborhood. Instead, the student body comes from all 5 boros, with 4 of the 5 represented on the SciBorgs. Therefore, the average time is around 75 minutes each way to school. If a student is dedicated enough to leave school after a long night during build season and face that kind of commute home, then they are more than qualified to be a member.

Michael Corsetto 29-04-2007 23:22

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
114 has no grade requirement for joining and participating, be it during the build season or at the competitions. This isn't to say that a student who is failing classes will be able to skip school for 2-3 days to travel to a regional. We have had numerous instances where a student has been pulled from a regional due to lack luster grades, not by the team, but by the students parents. Given that students pay for their own travel fees, it doesn't put the team into a hole when someone is unable to attend.

Jeremiah Johnson 29-04-2007 23:54

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Delles (Post 623322)
Being a former high school student on the team I am now a leader of, I understand that FIRST can sometimes cause a drop in grades. However my experience has been that during the build season i have always obtained my highest grades (Average in the fall Marking periods in high school was a 92.2%... in the springs it was an average of 96.5%) I guess the desire to do FIRST made me want to get my work done, because i knew that if i didn't get it done I wasn't going to be going to anything.

However, our team does not have this required GPA, which personally seems like a great idea. I would like to implement it onto the team, but im not sure how some of the high school teachers would take this (wether they would be for or against it.)

If you have any suggestions on how to break this to them or get them to join the band wagon please PM me.

I was the same exact way. My grades were highest in the spring... then I got bored and they dropped fairly significantly. I finished with a 2.9867 and a maroon tassel. I got ripped off, I should have had a gold tassel.

phrontist 30-04-2007 23:51

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
After a year long posting hiatus, I have returned for this thread. Having academic restrictions on FIRST team membership is incorrigible.

Success by the metrics of formal education requires a host of skills and personality traits distinct from an aptitude for or understanding of the subject matter. You have to be organized, disciplined, and interested in jumping through arbitrary hoops to prove yourself to your superiors, peers, and society at large.

In my case, I lacked (and to some extent still need to work on) the latter traits. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I was very interested in math/science/engineering/programming in high school, and knew quite a bit about areas of each. Often (but, I'll admit, not always) I did well on my exams but received poor grades overall due to my abject failure to complete assignments. I'm sure a lot of people in my position, finding little validation of their talents in academia, would give up on these harder subjects. These people should not be turned away from FIRST. It saddens me to think that this is the case on some teams, as it seems like they are the sort that could benefit the most from it. For those lacking the traits required to succeed in the academic world, FIRST can provide some validation for what can sometimes seem like hopeless aspirations. This validation can inspire continued efforts to change habits and attitudes.

The carrot and stick approach is demeaning and laughable. Some people are simply not going to master the academic game in high school, no matter how many well meaning adults or peers try to help them. These people (like me!) should just be shunned? Being an underperforming high school student can be pretty hellish - you have every imaginable incentive already to turn things around. For a few students it might be the push they need, but for others it would a serious blow. Had my school had this policy, I would be a very bitter person today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA
High School is just a stepping stone to College, which is a stepping stone to a career; meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.

I disagree entirely. Every moment of your life has value on it's own, regardless of it's preparatory function. Life doesn't start until (or if...) your career arrives? Or is that just preparation for retirement? Education, and the experiences outside it in high school and college have intrinsic value. My best friendships (practically my only friendships) from high school were made during the robotics season. Really, it was one of the few positive aspects of those years, but it was so great that I look back on them fondly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz
People who award scholarships want to help students succeed in college, and one of the best indicators for that is demonstrated academic ability in high school.

No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz
When you are ready to graduate from college, many employers will use where you went to school and your college GPA as a screen. If you are not above some level, your resume won't even get reviewed.

Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.

phrontist 30-04-2007 23:56

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Oh, and I would add that EC's almost never get in the way of school. Look at all the overachievers around you, I bet quite a few of them have an unfathomable number of extra-curricular activities. Most of the people who would fail to meet these grad cutoffs are terminal slackers like I was - there problem isn't too much going on, it's not enough. If you want something done, ask a busy person.

dubious elise 01-05-2007 00:03

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
On 269, grades are not necessarily a requirement for actually joining and participating on the team. Grades are, however, crucial for traveling with the team. Just like the sports teams at our high school, if certain requirements (Usually a C or C+ average and no failing grades) are not met, the student can not travel to nor participate in competitions.

As a result of this, and as some of you have mentioned, many of our students have seen their GPAs increase significantly during their time on the team, simply because of the heightened desire to be able to see, and operate, their beloved machine in competition. Additionally, because of the range of (I suppose you could say) GPAs on our team, there is always someone that a struggling student can turn to for assistance.

Never underestimate the motivational power of FIRST - it's one heck of a spiffy thing to see in action.

[And yes, phrontist, many employers DO want to see your college, and sometimes even your high school, GPA. Don't burn your ACT and SAT scores yet either - you never known when they'll rear their (ugly?) head.]

John Gutmann 01-05-2007 00:14

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I know for me I am not very motivated to do work at any time. At the end of the semester (in 3 days) I will most likely have a total GPA of 3.4 over the last 2 semesters. Now if I cared more and had more discipline to study and do homework I would most likely have a 3.9 or something that high. I have never had to study too much and have always gotten above average grades I guess. In highschool I would get 93% on tests and I wouldn't even remember there was a test. It was kinda just like, Oh look that is a test today oh well. I wish I was brought up to be more disciplined because I know if I cared in highschool the way I am starting to I would have been one of those people with 99%.

I think having a requirement can help and hurt, becuase if a student has a grade so low that it takes 3 weeks to bring up your already halfway through build season. I would rather limit the hours they are allowed at robotics. I think it can make people change but I mean for me unless your were offering me a new car or something like that in highschool I would have looked past the offer.

-John

RogerR 01-05-2007 01:05

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phrontist (Post 623714)
Really? Other than Google and a few other companies, I have very rarely heard of employers asking for GPA. They usually want transcripts to verify you actually earned a degree, and potentially to check your areas of concentration, but practically no one cares what grades got you that degree. Getting in to graduate school, if you go, is the last time anyone will ask you about your GPA.

it depends very much on the company; so far, all the really desirable ones that i've seen have had a cut-off of 3.0 or higher; grad schools are (largely) the same way, or higher.

after 7 years of FIRST, i've come to a very improtant conclusion:

FIRST, in itself, will not make you an engineer.

while it is an excellent suplement to an engineering education, it won't replace it. what you experience through FIRST is an extremely small idealized part of the engineering world; there is much that FIRST would be hard pressed to teach you. college is what gives you the tools to become a good engineer, and your grades show how well you know how to use those tools.

for what its worth, up until 2 semesters ago, i was one of those "terminal slackers"; my GPA seldom broke 2.5, and after several years of lackluter performance, i was in danger of losing my scholarship. last summer, and fall, i turned in a 3.75+ performance for both semsters. this semester, (for the first time in my life) i'm aiming for straight A's. its not easy, its not always fun, but it is imprtant. your grades and test scores are one of the major ways that companies and schools can evaluate how well you know your stuff. it may be a hard pill to swallow, but sometimes you just have to buckledown and play the game.

Salik Syed 01-05-2007 02:59

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Actually it's not just google, but almost all the top companies hire new faces based on GPA. Investment banking firms, Google, Consulting firms etc. all recruit from elite schools and usually take the people with the best GPAs. Now if you want to settle for an okay to good job then it's fine don't bother working hard and getting a high GPA. But if you want to work for a fortune 500 company or other top company with all the nice opportunities for growth, benefits etc.. you have to work hard even in college. Not saying that's what I do or want to do but that's the truth.

As for high-school, there is no excuse for a low GPA... in High-school everything is easy even slackers can get As with ease. I'm not saying we should restrict people joining robotics teams based on GPA.
What I am saying is that your GPA is the key to suceeding, it is easy to keep it high while doing little work... so why not just do assignments? High-School assignments are a joke, just sit down for the 35 minutes it usually takes and do the work. You won't regret it.

Quote:

No no, they want people who will succeed with as little help as possible. Everyone else is a liability to the institution, and a potentially short-lived revenue source.

GPA measures in the individual those traits required to play the academic game well. These are traits that can be developed though, and it's much easier to do than developing passion for a subject. If you can get young people seriously excited about engineering/math/science, teaching them study skills seems like a trifling matter by comparison.
The problem is that there are thousands of kids who have passion for things, what sets you apart in a competitive world is when you have passion and in addition to that you have high SAT scores and a good GPA and a load of other things. Secondly colleges/scholarships are usually not willing to overlook the fact that you do poorly in high-school despite it being very easy to do well in.

Protronie 01-05-2007 06:50

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I been reading this and noticed that there seems to be a thought that everyone must go to college. Not everyone is cut out for college. You also seem to be assuming that everyone in FIRST will be wanting to be an engineer...
Now hold off with the tar and feathers a moment.
Theres nothing wrong with going to a college and getting a degree.
But there are plenty of young folks that for them these top level colleges are just out of reach. They may come from broken homes with heavy financial burdens ect...
Some young folks need to go right into the work force ASAP. These same people
could/are are great asset to a FIRST team.
There is no substitute for experience... all your grades and book learning is well and good but until you've actually gotten you hands dirty and muscles sore you don't really know much.
I've worked in many different industries. My grades in school were dismal and yeah I do wish I had spent more time in class and less on the road but...
There is always a place for a jack of all trades that has more experience under his belt that paper hanging on his walls.
To think that someone would be excluded from getting his hands dirty, or knuckles bruised working on a robot just cause he/she is a less than honor roll or straight A/B student is a sad thing. Theres more to building and working with robots or any machine that the programing.
Going by some of the requirements stated here none of the kids I work with would ever have a chance to be on a FIRST team. But these same young folks may just end up being the ones to fix your cars, work on the machines in your factories, and build the roads you drive on.
Should they be excluded for FIRST just cause the book learning comes hard for them? Or the fact they need work part time at Mc D's just to help their mom pay the bills?

Just my 2 cents on this... take it or leave it.

Ken Loyd 01-05-2007 10:09

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Team #39 follows the school district rules that have been established for all extracurricular activities:

Practice and Play--2.00 GPA with no failures.

Practice No Play--2.00 GPA with only one failure.

This policy allows the student with grade problems to remain active in the club and the club can assist the student to address the problems. I would like to add that in my nine years we have only had two students who fell into the "practice no play" area and both students did not stay there very long. The vast majority of our students earn a 3.00 GPA or better. I do not know how fair the system is nor if the system has ever kept a student from joining the club, but it appears to work for us.

Ken

Taylor 01-05-2007 10:14

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
There are no restrictions to be on 1529, but to travel, students must have at least a C- in all classes (not average). The reasons have already been eloquently expressed in this thread.

Kyle 01-05-2007 10:45

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Since MOE is a multi school team, this year 14 high schools and home schools and up to 18 different schools one year, we are not able to keep track of grades. Each Student has to get a form signed by all of their teachers to be able to go to any competition saying that the teacher has no problem with their grade or missing 2-3 days of school, also I think the form has to be signed by a principle or guidance consular but I can't remember. That way the Teachers, the ones who know that student and their abilities, can make the decision if they can afford to miss school for events or not. Also we leave it up to the parents to decided if their child's grades are up to there standards to stay on the team.

I am not a fan of the required GPA and I love the way my team dose it since it give the control to the teachers and people most familiar to that student and their academic status but each team is different and has different situations.

Alexa Stott 01-05-2007 11:13

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by luciaes (Post 623285)
I think that anyone should be able to be on a FIRST team, regardless of grades. Why cant someone with low grades contribute to a team? with a basketball or football team i can see grades being a factor, but with robotics its completely different. Robotics is a place ware you can learn so much from being on a team, i highly doubt that you can learn as much on a basketball team than you can on a FIRST team.

Saying someone cant be on the team because they have low grades is saying "well you don't do good in school, so you don't deserve a chance to learn anything here and be inspired to do good just because you currently don't do so good"

Personally i think I'm doing better in school now that I'm in robotics and have a much higher desire to learn, and now i might be taking extra classes over the summer just to learn more and get farther in school, and if i wasn't allowed on the team because of my grades i would have never got the chance to see that.

I think the argument is that if the student is getting poor grades, it could indicate that they are not able to handle their current workload. When our team goes on trips, we miss 2 days of school, meaning that when we get home, we have 2 days of work to make up (and usually our work from Wednesday night, as well). I think most advisors/mentors/teachers want to be certain that the kids on the team will be able to handle all the make-up work. If a student is overwhelmed with their workload when they are not participating in robotics, how are they going to do once they join the team and get involved with build season and competitions?

It's not that they're trying to prevent "dumb" kids from joining; they just want to make sure robotics doesn't hurt their academic performance.

On our team, students have to maintain at least a C average in all their classes; this is also the requirement, I believe, for most of the conventional sports teams. To travel, they must meet this requirement, as well as our community service requirement. Each year, students must complete at least 10 hours of community service to be allowed to travel. Other factors, such as attendance at meetings are also factored into this decision. Ultimately, Mr. Cokeley (WayneC here on CD) makes all the final decisions on who gets to travel.

For our "away" regional, we try to only bring veteran members of the team (or, in some cases, new members who have truly stepped up during the build and off season are allowed to go). This helps to prevent students who simply want to join to go on trips from joining as often and eating up travel funds (we instated that this year after word got around that we went to Las Vegas last year) So we bring the entire team to Atlanta and New Jersey, and usually a group of ~20 students to our away regional (though for Hawaii, that number will be far less).

MissInformation 01-05-2007 11:16

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Our team is supposed to have a grade policy in place, where if a student fails a class or classes, they have, I believe, one grading period to bring their grade up or they have to leave the team. We have never enforced it, and part of me is glad for the students who aren't doing well, but a wiser part of me knows we are hurting the team by not enforcing it...

The teacher who has been with our team the longest is going to retire soon... We do currently have two other teachers who play a more limited role on the team, so there's no panic yet, however should we need to go find additional teacher help, we're going to be in trouble because a lot of teachers in the school "hate" the robotics team because of the way grades drop during build season. Summary: bad grades can easily = NO TEACHER SUPPORT! Sometimes schools and school districts pass rules that could hurt robotics teams (such as the district that passed a rule against using power tools). If our team ever has to battle to stay in existence, I worry that a lack of teacher support could hurt our chances. I don't blame those other teachers for not liking the robotics team, especially if they are dealing with students who are just slackers (learning disabilities are a completely different story). Teachers deserve respect and students who don't even try are a slap in their faces.

Heidi

Jimbo5051 01-05-2007 11:21

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I personally would hate to have a gpa requirement becuase I am a great student when it comes to calc, pyhsics, world history,chemistry,etc. but when it comes to english I just dont make the grade. I had all A's except in English which I had a big fat D- in last year, I had a better grade in Spanish than in English. It brought my gpa down from 4.0 to 3.56 and even though that is a realtivly good gpa it still would not look good when a college ask me for a copy of my transcript having just barely passed the class.

JesseK 01-05-2007 11:28

Re: Interesting Quote
 
It is the build season in which the students learn and have their thoughts teased, tortured, and challenged. FIRST is about the build season and since most of the building takes place after school and on weekends, I really would not want to deny any student that opportunity. It's by mere chance that grades are not checked until after the build season (quarterly report cards afaik) so all students are allowed to come in the build season.

For travel, however, to go with the team you must meet the same requirements as a college level student: C average or better in all classes. We mentor the students as college or better, we treat the students as college or better, so there is no reason to expect anything less. In my experience with the rare student that falls short, it is more a factor of laziness or mis-focus (on robotics instead of projects/homework), which we try to catch throughout the season. We also tutor students throughout the season if they appear to struggle with concepts (note, we do not much help them fight the struggle with laziness).

In the real world, regardless of your extraciricular activities, if you don't perform as expected on the job you have a high probability of not having your job much longer.

rachal 01-05-2007 11:30

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
We let anyone join the team, but if they start getting low grades (no strict definition, but probably around C's) they are temporarily suspended from doing robotics work/traveling to competitions. Not because we think their scholastic ability is a measure of their capability in robotics (our teacher advisor has no qualms about suspending leads and officers if they are doing poorly) but because we don't want to damage their academic performance. It's a good motivation, all the students who are dedicated enough to come work on a bot 12 hours a day during their spring break are also usually motivated enough to maintain their grades so they can go to competition. :p

JaneYoung 01-05-2007 11:43

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Teachers deserve respect and students who don't even try are a slap in their faces.
Teachers are my personal heroes and have been since my early days.
Our lead teacher founded our robotics team 14 years ago. He uses a lot of common sense in working with our students and in helping them. One thing he does is network with other teachers, following how they are doing all year and esp. during build, competition and afterwards when the real crunch hits and projects are due, finals are looming. And he doesn't just keep tabs on the team during the competition season, he keeps tabs on them throughout their high school career and post graduation - college, technical school, working - into their careers. It's called caring.

If the reputation were to develop that our FIRST team allows/encourages slacking and blowing off school responsibilities, I don't think it would be long before educators, engineers, sponsors, and politicians would lose interest in the program. Students who struggle to achieve are vastly different from students who don't care and don't apply themselves. On our team, we look at how we can support the individual and how we can support the team effort. They work together.

Eric O 01-05-2007 13:07

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I believe that 177s policy for travel is similar to participating on a sports team. I don't know the exact numbers because the school administrator that participates on the teams is responsible for that. I do not think there is any grade requirement for participation. We have had students that participated during the season and did not get to travel with the team.

I will say that I disagree with denying a student right to join the team because of grades. To me, the whole point of the Inspiration in FIRST is to inspire students who may be off track, students who are looking up to Athletes and Hollywood stars. If they see no reason to change their attitude toward learning then how will they ever get on track? I see mentors as a chance to give that student motivation toward brining up their grades or even assisting them in doing so. Teenagers often rebel against parents and teachers, but I have been amazed at how seriously students have taken FIRST mentors advice. If the students that need the advice from someone they admire and are never given the chance to receive it then that is disappointing to me. Those are the students whose lives could have the largest change due to FIRST.

I agree that there should definitely be travel restrictions if the grades are not brought up because the student has had the chance to and has still not done so. If they have truly been inspired and want to participate, they will get the grades up and be back the next year.

Like fishing, some may get away as you are reeling them in, but never letting out enough line to get the big ones at the bottom is just disappointing.

Eric

Kelly 01-05-2007 17:34

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz (Post 623308)
Also, most major companies do not recruit from every college in the country - they simply cannot afford to. They go to schools where they know the programs and know the quality of students that are graduating - so getting into a "top school" vs. a "decent" school can have a profound impact on the rest of your life.

Ignoring the fact that this really only applies to your first job after you graduate, this is another department where FIRST can be useful. I haven't even graduated high school, and connections I formed through FIRST have already helped me get jobs with engineering companies.
Also, Phrontist's point about looking at high school as more than just preparation for college bears repeating. The secret to unhappiness is to look at every opportunity as preparation for the future, rather than as inherently useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComputerWhizIA
meaning that you should do good in school while being in FIRST to gain the maximum benefit from it.

One way to do well in school is to demonstrate an understanding of the difference between adjectives and adverbs.

4throck 01-05-2007 17:57

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
On 1418, as has already been commented, we have absolutely no grade requirements. In fact, our leadership has a long and proud history of underachievement in school. High school does not in any way shape or form (except perhaps workload) prepare you for the real world. The purpose of FIRST is inspiring and recognizing science and technology, and high school rarely involves either.
Saying that FIRST teams should have a grade requirement has a fairly fascistic ring to it. You are forcing kids to jump through the hoops of a educational system that is broken for those who would really need FIRST in the first place. Hell, I'm going to a liberal arts school next year, and I still believe that FIRST was the most worthwhile thing I did in school.
And finally, who cares about high school GPA after you are in college? A business will check your college grades, but certainly not your high school transcript.

Just my $0.20 (I am 10 times more valuable than most)

Graham Donaldson 02-05-2007 10:27

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Our school itself, if I remember correctly, has a minimum grade to be in ANY extracurricular activity- 1676 doesn't have one. However, before any long trips (Ohio, Atlanta, etc...- we live in NJ), we have to get a HW form signed by all our teachers with the HW we're required to/should do, and then we have team study sessions on the bus or in a room at the hotel- something like that.

As much as being in FIRST is great for the hands-on experience, I feel it's still important to maintain at least a B/B+ GPA, because of a chain of events sequence. Even with FIRST, with a bad GPA, you won't necessarily get into a good college/university, and if you don't get into the school you want, you won't necessarily get the job you want, so it still is important.

D.J. Fluck 02-05-2007 11:36

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelly (Post 623927)
Ignoring the fact that this really only applies to your first job after you graduate, this is another department where FIRST can be useful.

I normally don't come around much, but I feel the need to chime in here.

About 11 years ago my dad applied for a job with a Delphi. He is an engineer, graduated from Lafayette College in Easton PA in 1981.


15 years out of college and he held his previous job for 15 years, yet they wanted to see his college transcripts and to make sure he had at least a GPA of 3.5. He spent a few years there and went back to the original company he worked for, but the point is companies aren't afraid to check your transcripts no matter how long you've been out.

Most of the time your college transcripts will follow you through your entire life. The moral of the story is work hard, do your best and do whatever you can to make sure those transcripts help you instead of haunt you.

Sure there are idiots with 4.0s and geniuses with 2.5s, but don't put yourself into a position where a company will just blow you off.

pafwl 02-05-2007 13:42

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
At Lansdale Catholic (team 272) we do not have any entrance criteria for a student to be part of the team. I believe this leads to elitism. If we had entrance criteria I may not have been able to be part of it when I was in high school.

I allow anyone to come in and let the process grab them. I have seen many shy quiet students turn into leaders, movers and shakers. I have also seen many "elitists" do nothing but talk.

The only positions we have that any student can try out for is driver, operator or coach. We will not allow a student on jeopardy of academic probation from being on of these.

10 years ago we started and we always asked students to write their thoughts at the end. So do some don't. One student gained some great insight. She wrote "I have always thought that the high GPA students who were my friends in school knew everything. But what I learned is when it came to the real world like trying to design and build our robot they knew nothing. They did not even know where to start. The students I thought were not so bright and did not socialize with in fact knew how to do a lot of this. These people became key to any success we had. I learned that I will never prejudge anyone by their grades or looks."

Remember FIRST is "For Inspiration" of all students. It is a little tough to inspire students you won't allow in.

Andrea's Mom 02-05-2007 15:02

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
As a teacher and parent of a MOE team member, I have strong feelings about who should and should not participate in a FIRST program. It all boils down to setting priorities - and priorities create very individual choices.

As a teacher, I KNOW that grades are often a poor measure of a student's talents. The FIRST program makes such a positive impact on every student and adult involved; that to deny those benefits to anyone committed to working hard with gracious professionalism is unacceptable. One of the best things about MOE is that a wide variety of skills and talents, from social to mechanical, make each person valuable to the team.

As a mom of daughters who are currently a junior and senior in high school, I can tell you that grades mean more than anything in your profile IF you are going to college. Rigorous coursework, along with good grades, provide students with opportunities for scholarships and admission to highly respected colleges. The FIRST experience is certainly a plus, but it and a C average may not qualify you for the college of your choice.

I teach kids in an alternative high school. We're lucky if 2 kids go on to community college after getting a GED or diploma right after graduation. But even our students would benefit from experience with a FIRST program. In spite of public pressure, not everyone has college in their future The skills and lessons learned during a build season go far beyond winning scholarships and looking good on college apps.

Each student has unique interests, needs and plans for her immediate future. I believe that an FRC program experience is valuable to anyone willing to adhere to team rules and the spirit of FIRST.

. . . sheepishly stepping down from my soapbox now . . .

vhcook 02-05-2007 16:28

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Team 1776 is based out of an alternative high school. I'm not entirely certain what the precise requirements are to travel with the team, but I'm under the impression they are largely behavioral.

I think a lot of these decisions are going to be based on the size and composition of the school(s) providing your student team members, as well as what part of the FIRST mission you're focusing on. A lot of what we're accomplishing is teaching the students how to adapt when things don't work, and what you can do with math and science knowledge.

CommanderRachek 02-05-2007 20:34

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D.J. Fluck (Post 624151)
Sure there are idiots with 4.0s and geniuses with 2.5s, but don't put yourself into a position where a company will just blow you off.

This brings up a sentiment I myself have at times attempted to impart upon several of my teammates (including the illustrious Phrontist): sometimes (not always) it's easier to just jump through the dang hoop. This is something which I believe, though I believe it less now than I did two or three years ago.

That notwithstanding, I do not believe that any student anywhere should be put in a position where they feel obligated to jump through an irrelevant hoop (e.g. math class) in order to get something that is actually important (e.g. FIRST). The choice to do the math (or history, or physics, or English) work should be just that: a choice; specifically it is a choice to use time now in order to possibly (not definitely) broaden one's future options.

In my experience, meaningless assignments are what contribute to the bulk of most classes' grades, and true intellectualism (by which I mean learning for learning's sake) is either ignored or actively discouraged, except by an enlightened few. FIRST is one of the few venues that are available to high school students for true intellectual growth. By introducing a mandatory minimum GPA, a FIRST team is almost invariably going to exclude the students that would benefit most from it: the kids who are sick and tired of playing this ridiculous, pseudo-academic game and want to actually learn something. I happen to be one of these kids, along with (if I may be so bold as to do some conjecturing) every single other member of team 1418, past and present. This is not to say that we are the only students who feel this way: to the contrary, I believe such students are all over the place, and that nearly all of them feel much of the same frustration that I do.

A good GPA will almost always open a few doors for you in the future, but it will very often lead to closed doors in the present: time lost to busywork cannot be devoted to something valuable and interesting. On top of that, the doors that good grades do open can usually be opened some other way. If they can't, they are worthless.

technoL 02-05-2007 23:42

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I've debated this quite a few times about what side of the fence I want to be on for this one. From personal experiences, I've summed up that grades ARE important.

As with any other extracurricular at our school, our minimum participation requirement 2.0. I completely understand the reasoning behind this. Besides the band, our team misses the most school out of any group. I suppose in this sense we are using GPA as a measure of responsibility. Regardless of the learning situation, you should strive to do your best, thus a 2.0 is not out of anyone's reach on our team. Most of the time it is just laziness and not lack of knowledge. With our minimum requirements, we are not preventing opportunities, but simply ensuring that we have a team of quality members.

As far as the team is concerned, students are usually only held back if a teacher or parent notes that the student is falling behind. We make it clear that it is the responsibility of the student to make up all missed work and settle all discrepancies with their teachers. I do admit that the build season has an effect on grades, and that is understandable (my grades dropped almost a whole letter grade between Jan and April, but I'm finally getting back up to an A average again), but in the end, school is more important. I've been on trips where it seems as if some people have packed more books and homework than clothes, but you do what you need to do. It's hard, but the rewards are worth it.

I have lost the respect of a teacher or two along the way for my dedication to robotics and not fully to their classes, but I've recently gained it back :o. Many teachers don't see the value of FIRST, and they have little sympathy if you dare mention the word robotics, therefore we need students to keep up the good rep of the program by maintaining their grades. Having students with the highest GPAs in the school and outside success looks great to the administration, rather than a bunch of students with a massive amount of practical knowledge, but nothing but a robot to prove it.

I think that the combined success of academics and robotics is more rewarding that just one or the other. Sure, I can say that I have learned more about physics in robotics than in school, but being able to say that I've done so without sacrificing my grades feels SO much better. It's the same the other way around too. Sure, I might have had straight As, but I didn't get to enjoy anything else. A C+ or B won't hurt much for one quarter.

-No L

Salik Syed 03-05-2007 02:43

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 624269)
This brings up a sentiment I myself have at times attempted to impart upon several of my teammates (including the illustrious Phrontist): sometimes (not always) it's easier to just jump through the dang hoop. This is something which I believe, though I believe it less now than I did two or three years ago.

That notwithstanding, I do not believe that any student anywhere should be put in a position where they feel obligated to jump through an irrelevant hoop (e.g. math class) in order to get something that is actually important (e.g. FIRST). The choice to do the math (or history, or physics, or English) work should be just that: a choice; specifically it is a choice to use time now in order to possibly (not definitely) broaden one's future options.

In my experience, meaningless assignments are what contribute to the bulk of most classes' grades, and true intellectualism (by which I mean learning for learning's sake) is either ignored or actively discouraged, except by an enlightened few. FIRST is one of the few venues that are available to high school students for true intellectual growth. By introducing a mandatory minimum GPA, a FIRST team is almost invariably going to exclude the students that would benefit most from it: the kids who are sick and tired of playing this ridiculous, pseudo-academic game and want to actually learn something. I happen to be one of these kids, along with (if I may be so bold as to do some conjecturing) every single other member of team 1418, past and present. This is not to say that we are the only students who feel this way: to the contrary, I believe such students are all over the place, and that nearly all of them feel much of the same frustration that I do.

A good GPA will almost always open a few doors for you in the future, but it will very often lead to closed doors in the present: time lost to busywork cannot be devoted to something valuable and interesting. On top of that, the doors that good grades do open can usually be opened some other way. If they can't, they are worthless.

I have to disagree. I agree most classes do promote meaningless work... but I do not believe they actively squash intellectualism.
If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

// This stuff isn't in response to your post but just the thread in general

Secondly, I think people are over-emphasizing "learning" ... Learning can get you far in life but not as far as possible. Ultimately you need to be focused on goals and how to achieve them -- and this often involves doing things that aren't ideal or fun or intellectual. You need to know what you want and how to get it.

I'll admit I was a slacker but I never slacked enough to get lower than a B+
I knew I could get into pretty much any college if I got a 3.9 or above and just took every hard class possible.

Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

I had a lot of the first, a little of the second, and none of the last...!

Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum
those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

Travis Hoffman 03-05-2007 08:41

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Team 48 welcomes all students into its fold regardless of academic standing. All students are welcome to join one of our functional subteams and participate in local events such as community service, fundraising, and our preship scrimmage. Each student on the team is required to pay an activity fee of $150, which can be reduced by participating in our team fundraising activities throughout the season.

Accepting behaviorally and otherwise-challenged students into our program may present a more daunting task to our teacher, engineer, and collegiate mentors, but it's worth it each time we reach a breakthrough with these kids and the light turns on for them. In an environment where many other groups have turned their backs on these kids (perhaps even their own families), they often appreciate a group that welcomes them in and challenges them to become more and do more. With patience and persistence, you can achieve some really surprising results. :)

In order for our students to travel, they must maintain a minimum 2.5 GPA verified by grade sheets passed around to and signed by all their teachers. These grade sheets are updated at several points throughout the school year. 48's teacher team leaders then also consider other factors in determining who travels - sometimes we have a limited number of travel spots and must make some tough decisions:

Team Service Time - Throughout the season, each Team 48 student fills out a daily time sheet documenting what tasks he/she worked on and for how long. Each daily entry must be signed off by one of the team's mentors. These time sheets are turned into the team teachers each week and saved for the team travel evaluation. With very few exceptions, those who contribute more and demonstrate better attendance are given travel preference over those who aren't around to support the team as much.

Submission of all Fees and Forms - If a student does not pay his/her activity fee in full by the travel period or fails to turn in their insurance forms, FIRST waiver, emergency form, or other required forms, they are not permitted to travel.

The team sets up monitored study tables for any students who drop below a 2.5 into "Team Academic Probation". We find that those who miss the boat on one trip due to grades are more than motivated to bring them up and become eligible for subsequent trips.

All of these requirements are documented in our team handbook that is distributed to students at the beginning of the year.

CommanderRachek 03-05-2007 23:18

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed (Post 624362)
If kids REALLY want to learn they will... It often takes more than a teacher to learn something... you need to have interest in it as well.

I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed (Post 624362)
Lastly ... GPA is not necessarily a measure of pure intelligence... and it isn't meant to be. Basically your GPA is a reflection of several things:
-How goal oriented/motivated you are
- How smart you are
- How organized you are.

Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed (Post 624362)
Having a low GPA does hurt you in life... and my ideology is this:
I am not someone extraordinarily special, I am not a genius and I probably am not going to achieve anything so <amazingly> special that I can get where I want to get...(this same fact probably applies to most people too). So I will just suck it up and jump through the hoop and get a good GPA.

Most people aren't amazing, they aren't going to be successful in a vaccum those people need to suck it up and just try to get a good GPA and use the standard venues towards success.

I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

Steve Wherry 04-05-2007 21:38

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I guess that I am a little taken back by some of the short-sighted statements of students who represent a school prior to representing the FIRST team (whether you like it or not).

Before a FIRST team can succeed, it must have the support of the school which includes the administration and teachers. Most teams have their school name announced during competitons. Yes, there are programs that are not directly associated with a school district, but this is only a few teams.

As a FIRST mentor for 8 years, I have had to jump through hoops, at times, to make sure that our school system continues to support and allow a FIRST team. Basically, we cannot risk allowing students who are not willing to put in at least a minimum amount of effort in the classroom to be a part of the team. I need teachers to allow students to travel. I need the administration to allow our team to travel. I need teachers and administrators to allow our students to miss classes to do a demonstration at an elementary school. The key word: "allow".

Common statements have been, "Well I am bored and do not want to do homework, but FIRST interests me and allows me to grow." Students who get an F or two D's are suspended from our team until the next progress report. If FIRST is that important to them, then they will get there head on straight and play the game. Why? Because the team has to in order to maintain the full support of everyone involved. Yes, this includes those teachers who bore you into not doing homework. In most professions, employees at times have to complete tasks that seem to have no purpose. However, they do it so that they can keep the job. They then keep full support from their bosses.

Administrators play this game called No Child Left Behind, and the graduation rate is extremely important to them...even before our FIRST teams. If a student isn't cutting it in the classroom, then no extra-curriculars. Many students seem to blame the mentors who are getting pressure from the top dogs for inserting grade restrictions. The true blame goes to the student who decides not to cut it in the classroom, but wants to be a cornerstone of FIRST instead. Schools tend not to support this attitude or approach.

Like it or not, teams have to play the game in order to keep the support...or become extinct. Some risks are not worth taking.

Chris Fultz 04-05-2007 22:23

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Dean Kamen is an inventor, entrepreneur, and tireless advocate for science and technology. His passion and determination to help young people discover the excitement and rewards of science and technology are the cornerstones of FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology).

FIRST was founded in 1989 to inspire young people's interest and participation in science and technology. Based in Manchester, NH, the 501 (c) (3) not-for-profit public charity designs accessible, innovative programs that motivate young people to pursue education and career opportunities in science, technology, engineering, and math, while building self-confidence, knowledge, and life skills.
The quote is from page 1 of the FIRST website, right below the Vision and Mission statement. Underlines are my addition.

Salik Syed 05-05-2007 14:51

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 624526)
I absolutely agree. In fact, that is exactly my point. Kids who are intellectually motivated don't need the grade to keep themselves productive, so why burden them with irrelevant work when they try to do something they actually like? In my experience, schoolwork has mostly just gotten in the way whenever I've wanted to do something interesting, like learn an instrument or read a particular book or build a robot. This is not to say that I'm entirely ungrateful for my public education. There is no doubt that I have learned a great many facts in these last twelve years, and facts are the basis of reason, so I am glad to know them. However, the spirit in which these facts were taught to me was one of basic uncuriosity, with the motivations of the vast majority of my teachers and administrators centering around standardized tests, and their expectations were that my motivation be my grades.

As it happens, grades have never been my motivation (though I do try to keep them acceptable to my parents, mostly for their sake), which explains the tremendous drop my grades took during and after the winter and spring of my tenth grade year, when I discovered my school's FIRST team. I had found something that I liked and that I could learn something while doing (a big plus for me). As such, my grades took a another knock down from their already low standing on my list of priorities. Ignoring school in favor of robotics (or music or the stage crew or any number of things I like to do) has always been a choice I have made, and personally I have no regrets. I have had a productive and fulfilling four years in high school. In contrast to myself, I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities.

What my priorities are is not my team's mentor's problem, and thankfully he realizes this. If someone on the team starts to suffer academically, it is entirely his or her lookout. For a team to introduce grade-based restrictions is to shut out those students for whom grades are not a motivator or priority, not to mention all those students who can't get good grades for one reason or another.



Grades are not a reflection of motivation or how goal oriented you are, they are a reflection of what you choose to make your motivations and goals. If you make school your top priority, you will get good grades, and if you don't, you won't. There's no way around that.

Really, good grades are a measure of how well you can play the system, which means doing busywork, brown-nosing, and generally giving over your own wants to someone else's wants. One of the main reasons I like FIRST so much is that it is an environment where I can succeed to some degree without having to do that.



I couldn't disagree more. Yes, grades do (unfairly) effect some people's perceptions of you, and having an exceptionally high GPA can get you scholarships and such, which are nice. But that scholarship is not going to make you happy any more than the GPA itself did.

As for how "most people aren't amazing": I guess that's so, but that doesn't mean everyone has to have the same definition of success, or that that definition must include good grades and a brand-name college and a high paying job. Personally, I don't call it success to sell yourself out of an opportunity to do something you love in exchange for a two car garage.

You bring up some interesting points! I think I will change my position... slightly.
I agree kids who are motivated don't need to be dragged down by busywork. Unfortunately kids who will learn on their own are a minority and thus our school system is the way that it is. I do see change ... I know our school offers AP courses/Honors and if you truly want to learn those at least place you in a class with *slightly* more motivated people.

And I see where you are coming from when you say that not everyone has to have the same goals to be successful. That is often the viewpoint many teens have ... that "I don't want to get good grades, I don't want to cave to socities standards, I want enjoy life blah blah blah."
But the fact is ultimately you will become a member of society and so you have to (somewhat) cave into societies standards of success (getting a high GPA etc.) You say it now that you don't want money and fancy cars and just want to enjoy life. I'm not saying money is the key to happiness... what I am saying is: Why sell yourself short? Why cut off those possibilities? Ask the people who are flipping burgers for a life if they would want a fancy car and a big house. Perspectives change as you get older, just remember you don't know the answer to everything... especially not the meaning of life ;)
getting a good GPA is not very hard... it takes maybe 6 hours extra a week spent on school!
Certainly no one will argue that being wealthy in and of itself is a BAD thing

"I have watched a great many very smart people spend their whole of their lives slaving away at stuff they know is meaningless for the sake of someone else's priorities"
I guess my core disagreement with you is that GPA sucks away time that could be better used doing other things
... really it doesn't... do a cost benefit analysis:
6-7 extra hours spent in school /week == 1 to 1.5 Grade points
1 to 1.5 Grade points == The difference between going to college or not.
getting a 2.0 up to a 3.0 or 3.5 is an immense difference ! Even if you are not the type to go to college...
You will ultimately want to do some kind of education correct? (technical school etc.) The better you
do in HS the easier it is to go where you want.
... and you will need to suceed once you are in technical school as well, so you might as well get some practice.

CommanderRachek 06-05-2007 22:08

Re: Interesting Quote
 
It was illuminating to get the perspective of a mentor from Steve Wherry, but I still have a few beefs. The main problem I have is that you (and a great many other people) seem to be of the opinion that high schoolers need to be led by the hand. By the time you are sixteen or so years old, you ought to be able to make reasonable decisions regarding where to put your efforts. If someone on our team couldn't make those decisions wisely, our Fearless Leader would no doubt take him or her aside and give them some friendly advice, but it is ultimately not his decision and he knows that. I highly, highly, highly doubt that he would tell someone he was not welcome in the shop because of their grades alone. In fact, he is somewhat of a specialist in accepting kids regardless of their grades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
I guess that I am a little taken back by some of the short-sighted statements of students who represent a school prior to representing the FIRST team (whether you like it or not).

The way I see it, I only represent my school as much as I wish to, which varies somewhat according to the context. Within the context of FIRST, I feel that I represent my team far more than I represent my school. After all, it was my team, not my school, who built our robot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
Common statements have been, "Well I am bored and do not want to do homework, but FIRST interests me and allows me to grow."

What's wrong with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
Students who get an F or two D's are suspended from our team until the next progress report. If FIRST is that important to them, then they will get there head on straight and play the game.

Why is it that it is the student who has to "get there head on straight"? Why not the teachers and administrators who are barring this kid from doing something he likes and is good for him? If some student is a major player on a FIRST team, he's probably not just some lazy jerk. It could be his grades aren't his greatest priority, or it could be he's just not very good at the game and would have to devote all his time to school in order to get even a C average.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
In most professions, employees at times have to complete tasks that seem to have no purpose.

So, what, I should waste my time now, too? If I wanted to do that, I'd organize my bottle cap collection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed
And I see where you are coming from when you say that not everyone has to have the same goals to be successful. That is often the viewpoint many teens have ... that "I don't want to get good grades, I don't want to cave to socities standards, I want enjoy life blah blah blah."
But the fact is ultimately you will become a member of society and so you have to (somewhat) cave into societies standards of success (getting a high GPA etc.)

I'm not saying I don't have to contribute to society; I think everyone has a number of duties to human civilization as a whole, one of which is to do something productive with your life. The trick is finding something you love to do that is also useful. For example, I love to play the banjo, but I could never forgive myself if all I did was sit around on my porch and play "Cripple Creek." It would be hugely unfair to everyone who has fed, clothed, and educated me, and who have provided clean water and decent health care and safe streets, etc. However, if I was to become a music teacher, for instance, and teach other people to play and love the banjo, that would be a different story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed
Certainly no one will argue that being wealthy in and of itself is a BAD thing

Actually, some people would, but they're crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed
You say it now that you don't want money and fancy cars and just want to enjoy life. I'm not saying money is the key to happiness... what I am saying is: Why sell yourself short? Why cut off those possibilities? Ask the people who are flipping burgers for a life if they would want a fancy car and a big house. Perspectives change as you get older, just remember you don't know the answer to everything... especially not the meaning of life ;)

Forgive me if I came across as if I thought I knew everything. I know I don't, and I'm glad. It would be kind of annoying if I did. Everyone would always be asking me stuff. What I do know is that it's nuts to deliberately spend your whole life wishing you were doing something else, and that that applies even when you're in high school.

Salik Syed 06-05-2007 22:59

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Oh know, you definitely didn't give me that impression... in fact I thought you made some really good points.

I'm also a teenager myself, and one thing I've finally found out is that adults/parents don't always know what's best for you... even though they may act like they do. However I've also learned that neither do I... nor anyone for that matter. Life is a wierd situation... you have one chance to live it right, and nothing to guide you except your gut and other people and perhaps religion... and every piece of advice from those sources is essentially unprovable.

The problem is alot of people some times have the wrong "gut" feeling ... and end up screwing themselves over for the rest of their lives through bad decisions they made when they were young.

Oh and I'm definitely not suggesting barring people from robotics teams because of their grades, I was just saying that in the end a persons GPA will matter... and that they should try and keep it up as much as possible, even if it involves tedious, mind-numbing soul sucking work.
I hated having to keep my GPA up and getting good grades and such...so I know exactly where you are coming from.

Chris Fultz 06-05-2007 23:44

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

The way I see it, I only represent my school as much as I wish to, which varies somewhat according to the context. Within the context of FIRST, I feel that I represent my team far more than I represent my school. After all, it was my team, not my school, who built our robot.
From the FIRST web site, your are representing:

"Aurora Flight Sciences/Falls Church City Television & George Mason High School"

All of your actions, comments and efforts are reflected back on your team and your team sponsors, including your school. Whether you choose to or not, you are representing you school as a member of FIRST Team 1418.

This is my last post in this thread, and I end with this thought -

I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....

RogerR 06-05-2007 23:44

Re: Interesting Quote
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625046)
...For example, I love to play the banjo, but I could never forgive myself if all I did was sit around on my porch and play "Cripple Creek." It would be hugely unfair to everyone who has fed, clothed, and educated me, and who have provided clean water and decent health care and safe streets, etc. However, if I was to become a music teacher, for instance, and teach other people to play and love the banjo, that would be a different story.

i may be misreading your posts, but it sounds almost as if you are doing FIRST (and plan to continue to do FIRST) purely for the enjoyment, and excluding just about everything else.

if that is the case, you might as well sit on your porch and play the banjo.

first and foremost, FIRST was created to encourage people to pursue careers in technology and science, not to build robots for fun. if all you ever do is build competive robots, you aren't really improving society.

i've been in FIRST for 7 years now. i've been a mentor for the last 4. granted, i've had a lot of fun, and probably wouldn't do this if i hadn't enjoyed myself. but i also wouldn't have been nearly as devoted as i am now if i didn't think i was helping change society for the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salik Syed (Post 625060)
I'm also a teenager myself, and one thing I've finally found out is that adults/parents don't always know what's best for you... even though they may act like they do. However I've also learned that neither do I... nor anyone for that matter. Life is a wierd situation... you have one chance to live it right, and nothing to guide you except your gut and other people and perhaps religion... and every piece of advice from those sources is essentially unprovable...

i agree with just about everything you say, with the exception of this. while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

<EDIT>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz (Post 625072)
I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....

this is true; if you want proof, go back and read my first posts, and compare 'em to what (and how often) i post now.

</EDIT>

Steve Wherry 07-05-2007 07:52

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
In response to the following quote:

"Why is it that it is the student who has to "get there head on straight"? Why not the teachers and administrators who are barring this kid from doing something he likes and is good for him? If some student is a major player on a FIRST team, he's probably not just some lazy jerk. It could be his grades aren't his greatest priority, or it could be he's just not very good at the game and would have to devote all his time to school in order to get even a C average."

The point that we strongly disagree on is what the school demands from all extra-curricular participants, it will demand from a FIRST team. What if a football player has the same attitude. That player could be preparing for his future in professional football, and a football player doesn't need all of this so-called education hoopla. Suddenly, the school is full of a bunch of teen-agers who "know what they need and are going to do it their way." Sounds scary.

The school curriculum and minimum expectations are what they are. If you want to change that, then you need to put your time and efforts into working with state legislators and curriculum directors in schools. However, without a decent educational background to gain their respect, they are probably not going to listen.

Scott Ritchie 07-05-2007 08:09

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Cheif Delphi meet Steve. Steve meet chief Delphi. I hope FIRST is ready for this.:D

That is the most reputation points I have seen from only 6 total posts.

Ben Martin 07-05-2007 16:09

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
As a student, I have to keep my grades up, or I won't be allowed on the team. It's as simple as that.

Knowing some of my teachers, if I was doing poorly in their classes, they wouldn't allow me to miss the seven days of school I miss per year to participate on Cyber Blue. My teachers want me to go to college and eventually get a good job. To do that, though, I need to keep a decent GPA.

Kelly 07-05-2007 17:00

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
The implication throughout this thread has been that anyone in FIRST who doesn't have fantastic grades is only doing badly in school because he or she is too lazy to do better. I'm sure there are many of these kids, as I've met a few on my team. But we're leaving out another group of kids, that is also very well represented on team 1418. These are the kids who are quite smart, and put a lot of effort into school but, for various reasons, still have trouble maintaining grades. Intelligence manifests itself in all sorts of ways, only one of which is rewarded in a school setting. A student could have fantastic mechanical skills, or be really good at reasoning, but have trouble recalling facts and applying algorithms quickly and in complete sentences. Is it really fair to include this sort of student from FIRST, whose unique talents would be a huge help on any team, because he or she isn't smart in the exact way school expects students to be.

I'm not saying forming complete sentences isn't useful, I just think it's no reason to exclude anyone from FIRST

4throck 07-05-2007 21:02

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR (Post 625073)
i may be misreading your posts, but it sounds almost as if you are doing FIRST (and plan to continue to do FIRST) purely for the enjoyment, and excluding just about everything else.

if that is the case, you might as well sit on your porch and play the banjo.

first and foremost, FIRST was created to encourage people to pursue careers in technology and science, not to build robots for fun. if all you ever do is build competive robots, you aren't really improving society.

i've been in FIRST for 7 years now. i've been a mentor for the last 4. granted, i've had a lot of fun, and probably wouldn't do this if i hadn't enjoyed myself. but i also wouldn't have been nearly as devoted as i am now if i didn't think i was helping change society for the better.


i agree with just about everything you say, with the exception of this. while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

<EDIT>



this is true; if you want proof, go back and read my first posts, and compare 'em to what (and how often) i post now.

</EDIT>

Last time I checked, one person is not a representative sample. I truly am sick and tired of the belittlement of high schoolers that exists not only in this post, but is a heavy undercurrent in this thread. Saying that I must keep up my grades "for my future" is very sweet of you, but making vague references to how an extra four years in a university setting makes you somehow smarter and more qualified than I am about the situation that I am currently in is downright insulting.

Secondly, where do you get off telling people how and why they should be doing FIRST? FIRST may be for recognition and inspiration and whatnot, but we paid our money, and if we do it for fun or the hell of it or anything else, what business is it of yours? The purpose of FIRST is to be fun. Why? So that it can inspire.

And if you had actually read her post, you would realize that there is nothing wrong with what she is saying. She is simply repeating a FIRST mantra. She loves science and engineering, and that is why she is doing FIRST. In what greater way could FIRST succeed in its mission?

Chris Fultz said

From the FIRST web site, your are representing:

"Aurora Flight Sciences/Falls Church City Television & George Mason High School"

All of your actions, comments and efforts are reflected back on your team and your team sponsors, including your school. Whether you choose to or not, you are representing you school as a member of FIRST Team 1418.

This is my last post in this thread, and I end with this thought -

I invite you to come back to this thread in about 5 years, read all that is written, and see if your views have changed. Experience says you will have a significantly different view of the world....


This is neither an official forum of FIRST, nor is this an official communique from team 1418. Rachel is posting, as she said, in her capacity as a private individual, not in anyway connected with her team. To try to scare people off with false threats and warnings about what they can or cannot say here is a terrible precedent to set. I give our wonderful sponsors enough credit to assume that they know when someone is speaking on their behalf.

BMartin 234 said
As a student, I have to keep my grades up, or I won't be allowed on the team. It's as simple as that.

Knowing some of my teachers, if I was doing poorly in their classes, they wouldn't allow me to miss the seven days of school I miss per year to participate on Cyber Blue. My teachers want me to go to college and eventually get a good job. To do that, though, I need to keep a decent GPA.


Argumentum ad verecundiam has no effect on me.

For the record, I only speak on behalf of myself. Like everyone else here.

Steve W 07-05-2007 21:04

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Why go to school at all? We all know how smart we are. School is another way to put down the brightest of young people. Force them to follow our standards. Why you ask? Just because we want all students to be miserable.

Really, that is the farthest thing from the truth that I could come up with at this time. Here I sit, almost 54 years old, taking a brake from studying. I HATE school but I must do it to stay employed. I dropped out of school after grade 12 (we had a grade 13 then) and did dead end jobs for a few years. Back in 1974 I got lucky and got hired by my present employer. I was thankful that they trained me and taught me how to work. I now make a good wage but I still need to improve myself.

What have I learned over the last 33 years? The first thing is that I should have stayed in school. I could have been so much more. I am not a stupid person (this is not a question) except for the fact that I thought that I knew best. I did not listen to my parents, teachers or friends. I knew I was good and any company that snapped me up was getting a deal. After 3 years of dead ends I started to realize that MAYBE I wasn't as smart as I thought. I quit the job I had and started working for less at the company I am with now. I took the opportunities as they came and pushed to make myself better. It took many years of long hours and hard work to struggle to be where I am now. The point is, that was then, this is now. I could never get my foot in the door now. No matter how good I am I could ot even get a second look. Companies look at your education. The reason is not always for the marks. They want a person that will meet the demands put on them, whether right or wrong. They want someone with perseverance that will finish the job put in front of them. I have dealt with a lot of university grads that are really not that bright. I have learned more in the school of hard knocks than they will ever know. They are hired because of the fact that when they were told to do something, like it or not, they did it.

As a mentor I would really question what I was doing if I took a student, worked with them in FIRST and didn't care about them getting good grades. Some students can get 90+ without trying and are capable of more. They should be expected to do better. Those that can only get 60 may be trying their hardest to achieve that mark. I am fine with that and would welcome them on my team. Those that are not passing need help not more distraction. If having them on the team would allow other members to help them and tutor them and their marks could improve then we are inspiring and again I am OK with that. I am not OK if a student comes and doesn't want to do better at school. This student will not be a good influence on the team and other students. FIRST is meant to make people better and show them what they are capable of. To do that we really need a base. SCHOOL. It may not be perfect but it is there and it is proven. You not only learn subjects but also disciplines. You learn how to study, memorize, prioritize and other important traits. You may not understand why now but as was said earlier, come back in 5 years and reread.

As the old saying goes " when I was 14 my parents were so dumb. It is amazing how much they learned in the last 7 years"

JaneYoung 07-05-2007 21:20

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I'm thinking about how the original post was made regarding an article that Mr. Mike Martus, teacher, wrote about FRC Team 47, Chief Delphi. It is an excellent article. Teams vary in how they are run/managed and how they achieve measures of success. Chief Delphi is one of our respected Hall of Fame teams and we don't have very many of those.

If I had questions regarding an aspect of the article, such as the grading decisions and how that impacts travel to events and other aspects of the team, I would contact Mr. Martus and ask him to explain or discuss the aspects with me that I find troubling or have difficulty understanding, rather than distorting them to this point in this thread. The truth is that teams develop ways to grow and achieve success and it works. And school academics is an integral part of it.

RogerR 07-05-2007 21:34

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4throck (Post 625281)
Last time I checked, one person is not a representative sample. I truly am sick and tired of the belittlement of high schoolers that exists not only in this post, but is a heavy undercurrent in this thread. Saying that I must keep up my grades "for my future" is very sweet of you, but making vague references to how an extra four years in a university setting makes you somehow smarter and more qualified than I am about the situation that I am currently in is downright insulting.

everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

and you're right; assuming that i'm smarter than anyone simply because i'm older is mighty presumptious of me. but if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4throck (Post 625281)
Secondly, where do you get off telling people how and why they should be doing FIRST? FIRST may be for recognition and inspiration and whatnot, but we paid our money, and if we do it for fun or the hell of it or anything else, what business is it of yours? The purpose of FIRST is to be fun. Why? So that it can inspire.

you're completely and totally right. you paid your money to do FIRST, and can do whatever you want. but don't claim that by building a robot you are changing culture; there's more to FIRST than that. if all any of us ever did was build robots, then FIRST would quickly become stagnant; no new members or teams would be reached, and no new real world problems would be solved. there's a world outside of FIRST, and FIRST was created to change that world for the better. to presume that FIRST is simply here for your enjoyment is to demote it to nothing more than an expensive game.

and furthermore, it appears that a public school is in your team name; i can only assume that many/most of the students on your team attend this school. while i may not be a taxpayer in your state, i think i speak on the bahalf of them when i say that they would like you to take advantage of all that money they pay for you to attend that school (i.e., taxes, lottery, etc.), and not blow off your classes as a waste of time. they paid their money too.
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4throck (Post 625281)
And if you had actually read her post, you would realize that there is nothing wrong with what she is saying. She is simply repeating a FIRST mantra. She loves science and engineering, and that is why she is doing FIRST. In what greater way could FIRST succeed in its mission?

as i stated above, there's more to FIRSt than just building a robot. its a means to an end, not an end in itself. sometimes you need to step back and realize this.

CommanderRachek 08-05-2007 00:26

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
A number of people have kindly informed me that if I were to return to this thread in five years or so, that I would be shocked to read what I have written here, and will no doubt shake my grizzled old head at what a fool I used to be. This remains to be seen. The truth or untruth of this assertion notwithstanding, I find it rather insulting on a few levels:

1) It implies, or rather states, that because I am but 18 years old, I am thoughtless and ill informed.

2) It implies/states that what thoughts I do have are shallow, indistinct, and foolish.

3) It implies/states that people who are 23 years old are obviously much more mature/well-informed/thoughtful than I am.

I contend that I have given this particular subject a lot of thought in the last several years, and that having nearly completed thirteen years of public schooling (including kindergarten), I am as well informed on the topic as anyone else.

I understand that not everyone meant this comment in this manner; you were merely offering some perspective. I can appreciate this. However, I do not need to be reminded that opinions sometimes change. Beyond that, I cannot speak for my future self, only for my present self, and I think my present self is right on this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR
if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.

The trend is obvious: everyone older than me thinks exactly alike.

Given how little you seem to think of my intellect, I am not surprised that you would try to put this particular fallacy over on me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR
everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

It is true, I cannot completely rid myself of associations with my school (or Aurora Flight Sciences or Falls Church Community Television) within the context of FIRST. I never said that I can, and I have no particular desire to. What I said was that my team comes first. Being a leader of my team only makes me take that even more seriously. I repeat: it was my team, not my teachers, who designed and built our robot.

Speaking of building robots: I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I do FIRST because it is fun and allows me to better myself. I believe Dean Kamen's goal to "change the culture" is a noble one, and I fully support it. I certainly do what I can to recruit kids to the program, but I don't participate in FIRST with the express purpose of changing the world. To imply that this (or any other way) is the only legitimate way to participate is incredibly arrogant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR
while its true that no-one on this earth always knows whats best for you, i'd expect that your parents are gonna be right more than any other source (including yourself). they've been around a lot longer than you, and (with a few exceptions) they know you as well as, if not better than, yourself. they did raise you, after all. they've known you all your life. looking back on my life so far, my parents track record is alot better than mine.

So my parents, both accomplished professionals, should consult their respective parents before they do anything and abide by their decisions? If not, then at what age were they allowed to start ignoring them? At what age am I allowed to start ignoring my parents? Obviously, little kids need significant guidance from their parents, but why should I have to wait until the seemingly magic age of 23 (or perhaps you had some other age in mind?) before I'm allowed to think for myself? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: by the time you are sixteen or so years old, you really don't need to be led around by hand.

As for how my parents know me better than anybody: well, I've known me all my life, too, and unless my parents can somehow read my mind, I've known myself a lot better than anyone can possibly know another person.

Sure, my parents make a lot of right decisions, but they aren't right all the time. Also, part of the way they've learned how to make right decisions is by making wrong decisions. One reason I like my parents as much as I do is that they give me enough room to screw up now and again.

Finally, if my state and local taxpayers are worried about wasting their money on me any more than on anyone else, they shouldn't be. I take what I can from my classes. What the taxpayers should be worried about is that there is so little being given.

RogerR 08-05-2007 01:16

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
The trend is obvious: everyone older than me thinks exactly alike.

while that would be incorrect if applied over the entire population with respect to every subject, in the context of this thread, it seems to be largely true. what is much more notable, however, is that despite the fact that we have widely varying experiences (again with respect to the subject at hand), there still seems to be a general consensus (so far).
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
Speaking of building robots: I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I do FIRST because it is fun and allows me to better myself. I believe Dean Kamen's goal to "change the culture" is a noble one, and I fully support it. I certainly do what I can to recruit kids to the program, but I don't participate in FIRST with the express purpose of changing the world. To imply that this (or any other way) is the only legitimate way to participate is incredibly arrogant.

i agree. my point is that participating solely for your entartainment isn't going to bring about a cultural change, and to claim it will would be wrong headed.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
So my parents, both accomplished professionals, should consult their respective parents before they do anything and abide by their decisions? If not, then at what age were they allowed to start ignoring them? At what age am I allowed to start ignoring my parents? Obviously, little kids need significant guidance from their parents, but why should I have to wait until the seemingly magic age of 23 (or perhaps you had some other age in mind?) before I'm allowed to think for myself? I've said it before, and I'll say it again: by the time you are sixteen or so years old, you really don't need to be led around by hand.

honestly, i'll listen to my parents (who still listen to their parents) as long as i/they live. the day you start ignoring them is the day you lose a lot of valuable insight into this world.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
...Sure, my parents make a lot of right decisions, but they aren't right all the time. Also, part of the way they've learned how to make right decisions is by making wrong decisions. One reason I like my parents as much as I do is that they give me enough room to screw up now and again.

so you'd prefer to learn the hard way, rather than learn from their experience?
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
Finally, if my state and local taxpayers are worried about wasting their money on me any more than on anyone else, they shouldn't be. I take what I can from my classes. What the taxpayers should be worried about is that there is so little being given.

you aren't just being given an education, you're also being given a host of oppurtunities; if you do well, you could get scholarships, grants, etc. the taxpayers are (hopefully) investing in the future (you). it sounds migty ungrateful of you to turn your back on that.

Steve W 08-05-2007 07:29

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
CommanderRachek, I hope that you do not feel that I am putting you down. My intent was to show that we all change and our perspectives also change. The more we learn the better we understand. That does not mean that it will change our minds or that we are right or wrong. What it does mean is that we can make better informed decisions. There are a lot of teenagers that have better perspective than me on many issues. As I get older and learn more then I too will hopefully get better perspectives.

I guess the most important part to look at is not what you know but what you don't. As we strive to better ourselves then we should also see with better clarity the things around us. That said, there are those that do not have open minds and will never see the bigger picture. I hope that FIRST students, young or old continue to seek knowledge and keep an open mind to the many great experiences that there are.

Steve Wherry 08-05-2007 09:43

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
I think that most mentors are basically playing the percentages and are looking out for the best interest of students because that is what we do:

Good GPA + FIRST = Excellent probability of opportunities for success in the future with a developed skill-set and defined leadership skills

Good GPA + no FIRST = Very good probability of future success; possibly fewer opportunities?

Lower GPA + FIRST = Fewer opportunities, but a well developed skill-set and defined leadership skills

Lower GPA + no FIRST = definitely fewer opportunities

Although the above list is loosely defined, mentors want to help students open doors instead of the student potentially closing them. We want students to want to do well in the classroom and to always give their best effort in order to maximize their potential and be as good as they can be to avoid minimizing your future opportunities. Creating minimum team standards (grades) is one way to get students to take the classroom part seriously and become the total package.

The on-going debate on this thread is just because we care about students' futures and want to offer guidance (optional) in the present.

GaryVoshol 08-05-2007 10:50

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625343)
A number of people have kindly informed me that if I were to return to this thread in five years or so, that I would be shocked to read what I have written here, and will no doubt shake my grizzled old head at what a fool I used to be. This remains to be seen. The truth or untruth of this assertion notwithstanding, I find it rather insulting on a few levels:

1) It implies, or rather states, that because I am but 18 years old, I am thoughtless and ill informed.

No, it only points out the obvious, that you have less experience than those older than you.

Quote:

2) It implies/states that what thoughts I do have are shallow, indistinct, and foolish.
No, simply that your thoughts and opinions are based on your experience to date.

Quote:

3) It implies/states that people who are 23 years old are obviously much more mature/well-informed/thoughtful than I am.
Not at all. I know many 23-year-olds who are less responsible and mature than high school students, because they have not taken advantage of their circumstances and opportunities. However, many 23-year-olds are more mature than they were at 18, because they have continued to have experiences, have continued to take advantage of the opportunities offered to them, and have continued to learn.

Quote:

I contend that I have given this particular subject a lot of thought in the last several years, and that having nearly completed thirteen years of public schooling (including kindergarten), I am as well informed on the topic as anyone else.
You are probably as well informed on the topics as anyone else who is in high school, and quite possibly more than most. Still, you do not know how your opinions on education today will serve you in your future. The advice being given to you in this thead is to not discard the opportunities you have now, because you never know if you will need the knowledge and experience in the future.

If your formal education, your school, your teachers, your counsellors and your administrators have failed you so far, that is a shame. The taxpayers in your community and state are not getting their values worth, and neither are you. There is no one best way to learn. However to say that because they are not teaching you in the manner best suited to you, so you are going to throw it all away, is short-sighted. There may be a time in the future that you wish you had better grades in high school, grades that you admit you could achieve if you only played their game. If you do not take advantage of what has been given you today, you can not retrieve it in the future.

4throck 08-05-2007 12:11

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR (Post 625302)
everytime you post on here under a screen-name that has your team name or number, or wear you team shirt (or some other team paraphernalia), for better or worse, you are representing your team, and therefore your school and your sponsors. as unfair as it is, it would be niave to assume otherwise. this goes doubly so for someone who has "leadership" in their title.

and you're right; assuming that i'm smarter than anyone simply because i'm older is mighty presumptious of me. but if you read this thread, you'll probably note that a great many mentors, teachers, and veterans are saying more or less the same thing. this seems to suggest a trend.

and furthermore, it appears that a public school is in your team name; i can only assume that many/most of the students on your team attend this school. while i may not be a taxpayer in your state, i think i speak on the bahalf of them when i say that they would like you to take advantage of all that money they pay for you to attend that school (i.e., taxes, lottery, etc.), and not blow off your classes as a waste of time. they paid their money too.

"But to say that the race is a metaphor for life is to miss the point. The race is everything. It obliterates whatever isn't racing. Life is a metaphor for the race." --

You know, for someone with this quote in their signature, you seem to be surprisingly missing the point we are making. We are not wasting anyone's money, be it the taxpayers of Virginia or Falls Church. First of all, there is a generational contract that makes it the duty of the current taxpayers to pay for my education, as I will pay for my children, and for my parent's retirement. Secondly, who says we are not getting anything out of it? I am going to St. John's College starting in the fall, and for those of you who know what that is, they will know that there are few better ways to signal a love of learning. High School, alas, is not learning. I get what I can out of high school, but it is not my fault that the system is broken, nor is it the fault of the taxpayers. As things stand, grades can make or break your life, however, that does not mean they should. I particularly feel that they are terrible indicators of anything. And if society refuses to get rid of these impediments, then why does FIRST have to follow society? Last I checked, we were trying to make society better. We cannot attract more people to FIRST by excluding a subset of them. Those people with poor grades need FIRST in order to motivate them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerR (Post 625302)
you're completely and totally right. you paid your money to do FIRST, and can do whatever you want. but don't claim that by building a robot you are changing culture; there's more to FIRST than that. if all any of us ever did was build robots, then FIRST would quickly become stagnant; no new members or teams would be reached, and no new real world problems would be solved. there's a world outside of FIRST, and FIRST was created to change that world for the better. to presume that FIRST is simply here for your enjoyment is to demote it to nothing more than an expensive game.

as i stated above, there's more to FIRSt than just building a robot. its a means to an end, not an end in itself. sometimes you need to step back and realize this.

You seem to be missing the point. Yes, FIRST must grow in order to change the culture, but that is irrelevant to the point I was making. When FIRST, by being a fun, exciting event, inspires people, not only to do compete, but to have a life goal, it has done its job. FIRST works because it's fun. Yes, it is a game. But it is an important game. Would society be served if all engineers and scientists were unhappy? People will go into these fields if they enjoy it, and not for any other reason. FIRST can accomplish that. Furthermore, if all that happens is that all of the members of a team go into unrelated fields with a positive view of science and technology, has FIRST failed? No. Because it still has improved the culture. Yes, FIRST is more than building a robot, and we realize that. But I'm not sure how any of what you said detracted from or even pertained to the statement I made earlier; that FIRST accomplishes its goal whether people do well in school or not.

Alan Anderson 08-05-2007 13:27

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4throck (Post 625421)
...High School, alas, is not learning...

That doesn't agree with my experience. For me, High School was all about learning. Have things changed so much since I graduated? I don't think so. My son seems to be having essentially the same experience I did 27 years ago (with FRC instead of choir).

That said, I dimly remember the "slackers" who didn't take classes or grades seriously back then, and I'm fully aware of the same type of people today. I also recall a few obviously intelligent students in my day who didn't consider studying to be important -- and who then went on to go basically nowhere after school, probably because they hadn't realized that taking the "studying game" seriously would have prepared them for the nature of the world after school.

I recognize that the VOICE OF EXPERIENCE carries little weight to those who are not yet experienced themselves, so I won't expect you to take the advice of your elders without hesitation. But I encourage you not to dismiss it without hesitation either. While there is room in our world for the misfits to thrive, it is limited.

Steve Wherry 08-05-2007 14:04

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 4throck (Post 625421)
Would society be served if all engineers and scientists were unhappy? People will go into these fields if they enjoy it, and not for any other reason. FIRST can accomplish that.



Dear _________ University: I am a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority. I hate homework, my grades are a little lower than they probably should be, and teachers bore me...but I did FIRST, and Dean Kamen says "Hi". Please accept me into engineering school or at least allow me to do something in the field of science and technology. Remember, I am happy, and I want to be an engineer! :)

CommanderRachek 08-05-2007 20:32

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 625371)
CommanderRachek, I hope that you do not feel that I am putting you down. My intent was to show that we all change and our perspectives also change.

I apologize that I came off as more than a little vindictive in my last post. I'm sure most (or at least some) of you meant well, and I was certainly being unnecessarily cranky. Be this as it may, I do not apologize for my essential point. I was annoyed because a large number of people, mostly older people, had written that my opinion will change as I get older, with the implication (intended or not) often (not always) being that my current view is immature and thus illegitimate. I found, and still find, this "you'll understand when you're older" tone (when used) to be extremely patronizing.

Certainly my opinions on a number of things will change over the next five years; perhaps this issue will be one of them. However, I can only lead my life now as I see fit now. That will be as true when I am 80 as when I am 18, or when I was eight, for that matter.

Again, I apologize to everyone who has given his or her comments with tact and good faith. My indignation was not meant for thee.

On a related subject:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
Dear _________ University: I am a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority. I hate homework, my grades are a little lower than they probably should be, and teachers bore me...but I did FIRST, and Dean Kamen says "Hi". Please accept me into engineering school or at least allow me to do something in the field of science and technology. Remember, I am happy, and I want to be an engineer!

1) I don't do FIRST to get into college, I do it to better myself. It's incredibly shallow to do something just because it looks good.

2) Such a juvenile and poorly written bit of text would probably do little to enhance the chances of a student at most colleges or universities. Certainly no school with a large applicant pool would look twice at it. This notwithstanding, I (a happy student who does little in the classroom to separate myself from the majority) was certainly not served ill by a brief and articulate explanation of why I was planning to withdraw from IBH Math at the end of the semester (my abbreviated message: "it bored me"). I was accepted into the Math program at Virginia Tech anyway, with a scholarship, for what it's worth.

3) Not everyone who does FIRST wants to be an engineer. Me, for instance. Or, better yet, David, my esteemed colleague who will be attending St. John's next year.

4) Not everyone who does FIRST wants to go to the kind of school where such a missive would be rejected or ignored out of hand. Again, just ask David.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wherry
I think that most mentors are basically playing the percentages and are looking out for the best interest of students because that is what we do:

I maintain that trying to force fit kids into a certain set of standards is not looking out for their best interests, especially when that means cutting them out of something that really is good for them in a meaningful way. By your own list of antecedents and consequences, FIRST has little bearing on kids' opportunities for material success, but gives them "a well developed skill-set and defined leadership skills." In other words, FIRST builds character. Why would you want to shut someone out of that?

Lastly:

Yes, RogerR, sometimes I do like to do things the hard way. The path of least resistance is rarely the most informative or the most fun.

4throck 08-05-2007 21:46

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Wow, it seems that our schools are doing a terrible job. They apparently haven't taught most people here what a logical fallacy is. Ad verecundiam, anecdotal evidence, strawman, ad populum, red herrings, correlation implies causation, and the list goes on.

JaneYoung 08-05-2007 22:44

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625544)
Not everyone who does FIRST wants to be an engineer. Me, for instance.

Some of your statements in this last post made me think of a couple of things.

1. On 418, in the past we've had a couple of students who joined the team as Seniors so that they could put the robotics experience on their college applications. After being on the team for only a year and facing graduation, they were sorry that they hadn't joined sooner - as in their freshman year. The good part of it was that they did have that year with the team and were able to experience it. The original shallowness deepened into commitment to something they didn't expect, FRC Team 418.

2. In Chief Delphi there have been many discussions regarding college, choices, decisions, education - and they have been very interesting. Here is a link to one of them.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46655

Jane

Alan Anderson 09-05-2007 08:58

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CommanderRachek (Post 625544)
...I can only lead my life now as I see fit now.

I commend you on your independence and self-actualization. However, you're disregarding the valuable experience of others who have already been where you are and have already gone where you're going, and that's unfortunate. There are good reasons for doing things the way you're expected to instead of always doing them the way you think they should be done.

I will be very surprised if you don't look back at this issue in five years' time with much more understanding and acceptance of what the mentors have been saying.

4throck 09-05-2007 15:42

Re: Grades and Student Travel, Etc
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 625641)
I commend you on your independence and self-actualization. However, you're disregarding the valuable experience of others who have already been where you are and have already gone where you're going, and that's unfortunate. There are good reasons for doing things the way you're expected to instead of always doing them the way you think they should be done.

I will be very surprised if you don't look back at this issue in five years' time with much more understanding and acceptance of what the mentors have been saying.

I believe I speak for most high schoolers when I say that I understand and accept what you are saying now. However, I neither agree with you nor believe your statements to be universaly true.


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