Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Does anyone know if VEX is still being reintroduced by Revel-Monogram in hobby shops this fall? I haven't heard anything since the official announcement back in October, and IFI has released some new products since then. I'm not sure if a more marketable VEX is something that would be unattractive to FIRST, so I'm really confused at the hint of moving to something else...

Only time will tell I guess.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

vexplorer is ready. It will be available soon http://www.amazon.com/Revell-Monogra...2913743&sr=8-3

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

We posted a response to many of the questions asked, and the issues raised in a new thread.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...107#post633107

Regards,
Innovation First, Inc.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

I would find this one hard to believe. IFI has been very enthusiastic about improving Vex and other products USED by FIRST. IFI was extremely proactive about correcting this year's FRC radio issues. Even having staff on hand at every regional and every playing field at Atlanta. I haven't seen this level of commitment from other VENDORS. The recent advanced gear kits and large omni wheels released by IFI and the anouncement of additional sensors and products this summer shows a clear desire by IFI to improve their products.

This could be possible, but is IFI being singled out from all the other VENDORS? I think that even if IFI thought an increase in their contribution to FIRST was unreasonable, the increase in sales as the program grows would still have to be considered by IFI. Any revenue sharing is also a part of business, and can usually be worked out in a private business-like manner if BOTH sides are willing to negotiate in good faith.

Please get one important thing straight. IFI and FIRST are two completely different entities. IFI is a for profit corporation, FIRST is not. IFI spent a great deal of resources to develop Vex partly to help grow FIRST, but mainly to increase its own revenue. IFI then spent even more resources to buy the rights to Vex from RadioShack, something FIRST could have done, too. IFI needs to recoup these expenses, just as any corporation would, in a smart business-like way. IFI's foray into the hobbyist market is good business sense. Should we fault other vendors like IGUS, Fisher Price, LEGO, etc. for having commercial ventures?

Remember, without successful commercial ventures of any kind, who would be the sponsors of FIRST?

I too, am glad FIRST has finally set a course for this year. HOWEVER, I am still EXTREMELY RELUCTANT to promote FTC to others. As well stated by others in this thread, FIRST is once again starting down a path to hurt its teams. It is clear that many schools have invested heavily in Vex and are not about to change products to stay involved in FIRST. This is bad for FIRST. Period.

This has been my biggest complaint with FIRST, since long before this current issue. FIRST is continually making changes which cost teams vital resources (money), for almost no good reason. Changing to keep pace with technology is one thing, but changing from a platform like Vex that is well supported by its vendor, robust in materials and resources, and well integrated with FRC, without any valid reason given is a waste which teams should NEVER have to endure.

I can not, and will not, in good conscience encourage new teams to get involved in FTC this year without giving them a serious warning. Since there is at least some minimal chance that anything and everything a rookie team purchases this year may be obsolete next year.

Perhaps FIRST is forgetting its reason for existing.... to inspire students through science and technology. Schools have always been reluctant to embrace new technologies because of costs and rapid obsolescence. For FIRST to reach every school, it MUST provide a stable yet progressive program which doesn't force schools with limited resources to reinvest money without seeing any benefit from one platform to another.

That is not only good business sense, its good non-profit sense. Schools were teaching technology before FIRST was formed, and will continue to teach technology with or without FIRST. As inspiring as FIRST is, schools and school boards can only look at the bottom line... money, not loyalty to FIRST.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Obviously, there is some reason that FIRST is not wholeheartedly embracing VEX. Perhaps, as was noted in a related thread, that it is better not to speculate on the reasons. Unfortunately, I read that after I made my comments...

I do think the community would be well-served, however, if FIRST would clarify its position. This lack of openness will, as you note, make it more difficult for schools to use VEX (and possibly FTC) as a basis for course work.

Regarding the original "guesses:"

My point was that IFI is a "for profit" business (as you note), and they may view the cost/benefit of correcting the RF differently than FIRST. I could be entirely wrong. In fact, I dearly hope that I am: If the system develops a reputation for faulty RF, it will slow its adoption.


The argument for increased revenue sharing was really only meant to plant a thought. I would be surprised if this could not be handled more effectively in a private manner as well.


I totally understand that FIRST and IFI are separate organizations. It simply occurred to me that FIRST might prefer a platform that was targeted solely at education and not hobbyist/commercial uses. I agree that LEGO spans both markets and that FIRST seems happy to continue working with them. On the other hand, they may not have much say in the direction of LEGO and may want to avoid a similar fate with VEX.


All of the above may well be wrong, but as I attempt to understand the workings of the black-box called "FIRST," I need to start with some hypothesis. So, in spite of the very good suggestion to avoid speculation, do you have any idea why FIRST would adopt this position?

As for moving forward with VEX, a great deal of the cost has already been incurred in both hardware and experience. I will make it clear that any further investment may be short-lived, but I am only building out a team not a school system.

After another season, VEX may have enough critical mass to continue on its own independent of a FIRST championship. The VEX platform hits a sweet spot for many, and I can easily envision an entirely separate organization sponsoring a VEX-only robotics competition.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Bill, I understand your points and was not taking sides with IFI or FIRST, or trying to disrupt your quest for answers. I think we should wait this out and not speculate.

My only goal here is to point out that drastic changes will not be good for FIRST. Teams and FIRST volunteers have limited resources. School systems have embraced Vex and changing platforms will likely alienate some of these schools from FIRST. How about Rhode Island that bravely put together a grant to establish Vex in every high school in the state? What kind of message is being sent if FIRST has had this kind of impact on some forward thinking politicians, then they change the program and leave these schools looking for more money to stay in the FIRST game? This doesn't sound like a strong formula for growth.

There are also groups of FIRSTer, myself included, that want to see this intermediate program succeed just like FLL. We are trying to promote FTC, but it's a moving target. We want to have playing fields, field controls, game pieces, etc. so we can take this into new school systems, scouting organizations, the community at large, and let them see, live and in person, what FIRST is really about. Have we squandered our hard earned money buying these fields, controls, etc? We have a chance to run FIRST quality events for complete rookies so that when they actually enter a sanctioned FIRST event they'll have some experience. Hasn't that been FIRST's goal with the changes to FRC this year? Level the playing field for rookies? Instead of trying to level the playing field through the rules or the game, why not give rookies experience through non-official, but quality events.

Also, as a member of one of last year's FVC regionals planning committees, we have signage, playing fields, controls, etc. that will likely need replacing. More wasted money. Also, web domain names will have to be changed, web pages alter, links corrected.... more work on a volunteer workforce that could be out recruiting more teams. :confused:

If in fact, the changes hinted at on the official FTC page are minor, such as replacing the control system to eliminate RF problems as you have suggested, then I don't see a big problem. We can and will continue to use a majority of our purchased hardware without major loss. Then a simple clarification would quiet all this speculation down.

Confused, but still counting down the days until the launch of FTC 2007-2008!

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Art, I agree with all of your comments. With any luck, FIRST will as well.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

BINGO! Has FIRST already forgotten the dismay of the FLL teams who had invested so much in RCX's and now had to consider NXT's? And that wasn't even a required change, FLL allows teams to use either platform. Also, it was LEGO changing their technology that made the change, not FIRST deciding to use another platform.

Edit: "You must spread some reputation around ..."

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Yes, LEGO saw the big picture. LEGO saw the changing technology around them. LEGO listened to its customers. LEGO changed, upgraded, and made a new product that will define this next decade. FIRST and LEGO worked together to integrate it into FLL. Both companies realized that a little revolution, from time to time, is good for the soul.

Maybe FIRST has decided it's time for a revolution in FRC (new control system in 2009) as well as in F[TV]C...

-Danny

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

An updated announcement about the FTC program has been posted at http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=5654

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Can anyone explain? What other states will not have FTC?

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Looks like many teams wasted a good deal of money on these VEX kits. Also, there may be very few rookie teams this year, because who would pay for kits you can only use for one year.

I don't see why FTC will not have a competition in Michigan. FVC in Michigan last year was very sucessful, and many of the teams that competed in michigan went on to do very well in the world championships (3047 connect, 3050 finalist, 3198 quarterfinalist, 3541 quarterfinalist, 3652 finalist) or 26% of the teams that competed in Michigan.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

[blunt]The 1,100+ FIRST Robotics Competition teams*.[/blunt]

The way I see it, teams can still build a competitive robot for most any task off the bundle kit. Besides, FIRST hasn't said that FTC won't use the Vex kits past this coming season, just that it is unlikely. There is a difference. Besides, as the FTC announcement says, think of what you could still do with a few Vex kits in a post-Vex FTC. I think it's possible that you could still do a right large amount of inspiring with them.

Personally, I can't wait to see what they've cooked up this season. I've reffed in Atlanta for two of these games, and I'm hopeful to make it a third.

*Alright, so there are some exceptions...but you know what I mean. And read Blake's post.

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

[blunter]

• That is about 5% of the market that needs to be addressed.
• That is not the 5% that most needs to be served by FTC.
• With rather rare exceptions, those 5% are not small, 3-to-8 person teams with one or two mentors.
• That 5% pays a large fee that I believe includes a substantial chunk of their regional expenses. The parts they get are mostly in-kind donations and are worth much more than the total FRC annual fee.
• My FTC team would gladly pay for our share of an FTC "regional" if we got a complete enough kit (full of tons of donated parts) in return for the fee; and if that kit's software (and hardware) learning curve varied little from year to year.
• Etc.

[/blunter]

BillF - opinions will vary, but I think your comparsion has a few oranges mixed in with its apples. - Blake

Re: [FVC]: 2007-2008 FTC (was FVC) Season is Official
 

Indeed it did, though I (perhaps without declaring so) assumed everyone's fruit detectors were up and running. It'll take several approaches to do everything FIRST wants to do; I don't think one or the other is the solution.

Apologies for any confusion.