Goodbye IFI?
 

In light of recent events it seems to me like the writing is on the wall that FIRST wants to close its relationship with IFI. The question remains, what will happen to FIRST without IFI? And what is the reasoning behind the decisions?

FVC to FTC - Why would first rename the program unless they are planning to loose the vex platform in the future? I can understand why FIRST might not want to name a program after a product but the fact that JFLL and FLL are named after lego it makes it difficult to draw any other conclusions.

New control system for 09 - There have been no details of what the replacement will be, but it is assumed not to be made by IFI. There are reasons for this as the technology has gotten better, but why completely reinvent the wheel. In the past when upgrades have been made to the IFI system no announcement was made (Pbasic to C, memory upgrade, Victor 883 to 884, etc)

Changing from the old kit transmission to bane bots

In addition to the products made for FIRST many other things have been have contributed by this company with this it forces me to wonder if first cutting their nose off to spite their face? ie. What is the motivation for all of these “anti-IFI” decisions? I know I have assumed a few things but this is because I see some evidence that leads up to it. I am just concerned, like many of you.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I'm not sure of the motivation. It might be that FIRST was asked by IFI to move away so that IFI can move to other business fields. Who knows.

(side note: The new controller is not made by IFI, and it's really, really, really cool, or so some little birdy told me)

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

There is NO WAY a business would ask a customer like FIRST to "move away".
That would be like Cummings asking Paccar to buy their engines from someone else. :eek:

(Paccar build Kenworth & Peterbilt trucks)

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

i dont knot it can go both ways first might find someone better and cheaper or they are designing there own products at cheeper cost.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Well....Disney? Small Parts? FIRST can be overwhelming for companies that would like to get on with other business that happens year round. Plus, I think they ask their suppliers to work on little to no margin.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I would be very sad to see the IFI guys go away. The main IFI guys are very dedicated to FRC and their presence would be greatly missed.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Well... Are they moving entirely away from IFI, or just the controller?

Because Victors (883s, 884s, HVs and Thors) really only work well with IFI controllers... Any other pwm device and they are kind of jittery and unreliable. Dispute it if you want, but it is a common fact in combat robots. I hope FIRST is aware of this before they start the '09 season.

Also, i checked the usfirst site and it still said "FVC"... am i missing something?

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Here's what i recieved a few days ago:

After two successful pilot seasons as the FIRST Vex Challenge, we are
pleased to announce that the intermediate program, now named the FIRST
Tech Challenge, is an official FIRST program. It joins our continuum of
FIRST programs with the Junior FIRST LEGO League, FIRST LEGO League, and
FIRST Robotics Competition. This program will be structured similarly to
our pilot seasons and will continue to target an audience between the
FIRST LEGO League and FIRST Robotics Competition both to serve as a
feeder program into the FIRST Robotics Competition and to bring FIRST to
new geographic areas.


The next season of the FIRST Tech Challenge will begin in September
2007, and planning is underway. Team registration is expected to be open
on or shortly after July 11, 2007. Details on tournaments and season
information will be provided as soon as it is available. Please check
the FIRST website at www.usfirst.org for periodic updates.

The FIRST Tech Challenge will continue to use the Vex Robotics Design
System for this coming season. After registration opens, FIRST will
make Vex kits available at a price that only registered FIRST Tech
Challenge teams will be able to access. Teams may also use their
existing kits from previous years' competitions. Things may change in the future, but for now the Vex Robotics Design System is the official tournament kit.

We are excited to launch this new FIRST program sure to engage a greater
number of students.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

You do know the definition of the word vex right? The word itself only draws negative connotations that it probably would be a good idea to change the name. Im still slightly confused about why IFI named it vex in the first place.With the feature set that we heard about recently I would expect the price to be higher from whoever is making the new control system.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

vex (vks)
tr.v. vexed, vex·ing, vex·es

2. To cause perplexity in; puzzle.
I believe this is the reason. And I agree with Bharat's assessment wondering why FIRST would change the name if changing to another kit was not eminent.

Also this paragraph from the recent correspondence from FIRST to the FVC partners.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Very vexing!

From reading this I understand that the VEX control system will stay for this year, but it will likely not stay for long.
The reason for this might be because it is hard for FIRST to switch from the VEX control system to something else on such a short notice. But with another year they will be able to.
The reason for the name change may be because VEX will go bye bye soon.

i doubt that the reason for the name change is because of the meaning of the work vex. But i guess it could be.

just my thoughts.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

While I agree that there're a lot of interesting things on the horizon for FIRST -- please think carefully about some of what y'all are posting as we move forward. I'm skeptical that many folks here have privileged information that has anything to do with FIRST, its relationship with IFI, or their plans for the future.

Unless you're willing to write explicitly from where you're speculating that, for example, something is "purely financial," it may be best to write nothing at all. The rumor mill is kind to nobody, generally.

So, in short, be careful not to make stuff up. :)

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I agree that we are all kind of getting the 'feeling' that IFI's tenure with FIRST may be coming to an end, and most of us have probably heard 'rumors' about the subject. But reality is that no one from either side has come out and said anything yet. The only real indication we have is that FIRST did not announce that the new controller was going to be provided by IFI again (which it could possibly be, though I would doubt that).

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I'm not sure that IFI created the Vex package. RadioShack was selling them until the beginning of this year and IFI bought the "Vex" name and/or rights to sell the product. Who actually came up with the name? I have no clue.

I'm just glad they are being open about this transition period. I just bought a new starter kit for the upcoming year. Glad it won't be funds wasted.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Just another note to many of you who think FIRST is running from IFI.

Have any of you noticed that FIRST and Microsoft are partnering for the 2008 season(1)(2)? BUT if many of you didn't know Microsoft has its own little robotics program called Microsoft Robotics Studio(3)? Now I don't know if I'm crazy or doing some math wrong but, Microsoft is HUGE and has the potential to invest a TON of money into the FIRST programs. Now for me, FIRST + Microsoft = A new tree of ideas, parts, and people = Smaller companies (IFI) will be kicked out.

If my math is correct, FIRST would have a lot to gain from this new partnership and would have more access to more resources as well as more engineers who spend their lives on robotics programs/applications/etc helping out and mentoring. For participants of FIRST, this could mean everybody would have to learn new things, and try out a system that has yet to be proved effective, efficient, and reliable. For the smaller people it could mean that they are "too small" for FIRST even though they are adapting and growing enough to meet many teams' needs.

Think about that!

(1)http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...oft_FINAL2.pdf
(2)http://www.microsoft.com/indonesia/n...oboticsPR.aspx
(3)http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/robotics/default.aspx

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

IFI developed VEX. Radio Shack just sold it. When Radio Shack quit, IFI sold the kits and parts online.

Pleases do not state things that you don't know to be true. What I have seen in this thread is at least 99% speculation, if not more. I'm going to wait for the official word on this to come out, if it really happens to be true.Could IFI be quitting FIRST? Possibly. I have, however, seen no evidence of this. Even the first post had some things that could have other reasons; e.g. the kitbot trannies to BaneBots trannies could have simply been trying something new or "advertising" for BB. Let's look at each piece of "evidence" and see what all the possible reasons could be and then see if it looks like IFI is stopping their support.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

The kitbot point is misleading in the first place. While they may have been sold by IFI, they were the brainchild of Paul Copioli, not IFI.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

It's generally is a negative type of conotation within the context of frustration.
Uggg... That's a horrible idea. Microsoft Robotics Studio is a great looking program but it's just way to complicated for FIRST. You would have to give out computers to every single team because it requires a computer to run the robot. It's just so much easier to use an embedded processor.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Together we got it correct:
http://www.ifirobotics.com/docs/vex_release_4-17-06.pdf

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Is that true? I thought MSRS can be used as basically an emulator and can eventually offload the entire program onto the robot hardware. So MSRS is more like a combination of MPLAB and EasyC, but there still needs to be some kind of hardware embedded controller, which could be anything. (Right now there are about eight supported systems, including MindStorms and the iRobot Create, but I suspect this will grow.)

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

This Microsoft "Robotics Studio" looks pretty cool, if you look at their list of partners here
you can see that there are some groups using it that already have ties to FIRST (LEGO NXT, Segway inc.) and other big names in robotics. But whatever FIRST decides I'm sure will be for the best and will probably be for reasons beyond what anyone here has thought of, so speculation is more or less pointless.

I just think this Microsoft software looks neat-o to play with :D

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Rumors and speculation do nobody any good. If you have a credible source, please specify it, but posting your own theories will likely only blow a situation out of proportion. Even if FIRST has made some moves away from IFI in the past year, there is no reason to suspect that all connections with IFI are about to be severed, and no reason to suspect that IFI is not involved in this process somehow. And while I hope these rumors aren't true, and that IFI remains an integral part of FIRST, speculating about IFI and FIRST's future will likely cause more harm than help.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

With all of the changes in FIRST, I would not be surprised if they are moving out with the old and bringing in the new -or- restructuring as businesses call it. I only draw this conclusion with things such as; the new field software (no longer provided by Hatch), the new Banebot 'stuff', and other subtle changes that have been occurring over the past year or two. While I draw this conclusion, i'll let others draw the conclusion of whether they feel/see this as a good or bad move on FIRST's part.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

It's more complicated and powerful than MPLAB and EasyC by far. There really is no reason why any robot couldn't be controlled using it. I think the most flexibility comes from running it within the robot itself. A speaker from Microsoft was actually controlling a robot that was running MSRS from a web browser. He showed how you can start and stop any subroutine using any computer that has a webrowser (With emphasis on any webrowser).

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I am just posting this as a note to all the people Who are telling everyone that speculation is wrong, and a bad Idea. It is not. This is an open forum, and the community can speculate all they want about whatever subject(s) they want... and it will do nobody any harm. There is no "situation" to be blown out of proportion, and If IFI is leaving first, who cares? They have been wonderful partners, but the only reason to morn their leaving this early in the game is fear of change. As pointed out in the first post and many subsequent ones, there ARE reasons to suspect first's leaving IFI, and as a group of innovative, thinking people... Why not discuss the future?

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Speculation in and of itself isn't terrible, of course, but the source of such speculation can lead to problems. If someone has access to privileged information and shares that information with someone else, they've made an error in judgement. That error is somewhat mitigated, you might say, if the person they share it with has some sense of responsibility or appreciation for that privileged information and what it means to those it belongs to. Running to the internet and writing, "I heard," or "someone told me," could be a great way to get someone fired or worse.

I merely cautioned folks to think carefully about what information they think they might have and whether it's prudent to share it on this public forum.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Ok so i have read this a few times and I have been up to date with everything here.

Now i do know that IFI employees do surf CD very often. Now not to put them on any spot or anything (they may not know of any plans that may exist with FIRST or the lack there of) but if you know anything can you please fill the FIRST community in on it.

***Thanks Alan, i was planning on putting the following part in but forgot***

We understand that most of the time if you know something you can't say it. But if you are allowed to speak on this topic can you please let us know.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I'm a little uneasy about this "tactic" that seems to come up on CD fairly often in recent times. It seems like we create and then stir these rumors and/or controversies until FIRST or someone else has no choice but to come out and settle them. And I'm not so sure that's too thrilling for them. I say we just learn to have a little more patience.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I'll ditto M. Krass. Some around FIRST corporate almost certainly know what's coming, but they're obviously not going to talk and anyone who's heard something is probably putting their job and/or reputation at risk by talking. Asking IFI people to comment on things that FIRST obviously doesn't want bandied about is just silly. I think speculating that they're doomed and being kicked out is just as silly and possibly a bit mean. Think about this, If they're being dropped by FIRST, you're just constantly reminding them of the business they're losing in 2 years. If they're not, you're just annoying them by implying they can't design something to satisfy FIRST.

I'm just as curious as everyone else, and more or less just as in the dark, but I don't think wild speculation on something of this import is terribly productive. It's a bit different than the constant rumor of a water game, after all.

That said, I really, really, really don't want to have anything to do with the MS Robotics Studio. I'd rather keep the option of switching to Linux and avoiding Vista, and most other control system options atleast leave that as a possibility.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

To re-iterate what Sanddrag said, FIRST will inform us of any changes when they feel the time is right. Would knowing RIGHT NOW instead of in a few months really affect you that much?

If FIRST is, in fact, moving away from IFI, then now is probably the worst time to be sharing information publicly about what is going on.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

The way things generally work in cases like this is simple: if you know something, you can't say it.

So keep in mind that if someone does say something, it usually means they don't know.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

This is all pure speculation, but it seems fairly logical to me:

I would assume that the move away from the IFI controller isn't simply a move away from IFI, it's a move away from the PIC 18F series of microcontrollers. I programmed an 18F452C in college, using assembly, and I promise you that it has multiple limitations many modern-day programmers would rather not deal with -- like no nesting, no recursion, and procedure/spaghetti-based coding practices. These are all based upon constructs that directly contradict what students and new mentors are taught in college about OOP, which is where high-level programming is these days. You also have to come up with extremely complex algorithms to have any optimised code currently, and it's not exactly easy to teach students Calc.-3/Linear Algebra concepts to a high school student who hasn't been through Algebra 2.

On top of that, some people may have missed the announcement of a NASA robotics platform that was released. While I have yet to review this platform myself it does seem like an easier way for NASA to use this robotics program to help create useful ideas/solutions while teaching the younger generation in the process. It makes sense that FIRST would move to a controller that has the capability to run this platform -- after all, NASA is a big funder of FIRST just like IFI.

------

If you were old enough to understand it, you might remember way back in the late 90's when the cable companies entered the internet arena. The phone companies were all in a panic and everyone was worried about a new standard of internet coming of age. Well in all actuality all it did was bring about competition to the phone companies since they were keeping the high-speed internet lines at equally high prices -- at which point the consumer was getting screwed. Cable changed all of that, and look -- we're about to be able to get 25Mbps here in DC, something that was unfathomable in the late 90's.

Competition is good, let's hope IFI can step up.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

The problem is that what you describe is a limitation of almost all of the embedded devices that compete with the PICs. Typically, programing techniques that won't cause problems on a computer will typically cause enormous problems in a microprocessor.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

While that's true to some extent, I will say that you don't necessarily need an object-oriented language to implement an object-oriented design. C++ and Java do include many features that encourage this style of design, but using MPLab and C (less so in assembly for obvious reasons), it's certainly do-able to have a clear object-oriented style to you code.

The main features of object-oriented design are encapsulation and data abstraction. This means that all of your functions that deal with a common set of data are grouped together and that some variables and functions are meant to be accessed from the outside in order to provide an interface, while others are to remain hidden behind the scenes.

In C++ and Java, classes make it very simple to perform encapsulation, and likewise public, protected, and private keywords make it very easy to abstract your variables and functions.

With an embedded controller, you don't have the overhead for these niceties. Your data encapsulation is done by using "typedef structs" and just by breaking you program up into multiple files. Instead of accessing variables directly, you create functions which access them. You will need pointers. You also need to keep track which functions are part of your interface, and which are lower level.

Here's a decent code example illustrating some of the concepts I'm talking about, in case i'm not making much sense.

Also, just to throw this out there, from a complexity point of view, it's generally considered better to find an iterative solution to a problem rather than a recursive solution.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

That doesn't prove anything. Since 2003, there have been no less than 4 different companies providing field control. There have been 3 different main drive motors, and 4 kit transmissions. There have even been 4 different methods of alliance color identification (I still miss the police lights). Change is constant in FIRST.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Exactly.

it's not even like the "Banebot 'stuff" was replacing anything that had been around a while; the kit gearbox it replaced had only been in for two years and before that drill gearboxes were given (I know they were in '04, any kit gearboxes before that are unknown to me).

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I'm not a software guy, but to say IF they move away from a PIC based system, does that mean moving away from Microchip products? If that's the case, I find this hard to believe with Steve Sanghi, President and CEO of Microchip, so integrally involved with FIRST, on the Board of FIRST, supplier, sponsor, etc...

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Did I miss some new compilier developments in the last few years? Are they now parsing symbolic math into algorithms for us? Or automatically modelling our systems and designing control for them? I mean, really. The whole point of optimization is that you're, well, optimizing. A faster processor doesn't equate to instant optimization.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Well I know this...
1. I don't like Microsoft or Billy Gates.
2. Something is a foot as Mr Holmes would say.
3. The FIRST powers that be seem to hide too many of their doings behind closed doors.
4. Change will come, and all the crying and complaining won't stop it.

So... either you give up or you deal with it.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I doubt anyone at FIRST is doing anything "top secret". I mean they just have no real reason to announce any changes until everything is set in stone with whatever decision they made because it doesn't affect anyone in the general FIRST community until that time.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Has anyone considered that IFI controllers are the backbone of just about every major robotics competition (FRC, battlebots, etc.)? Why would FIRST walk away from such a great proven platform? Moving to a control system that has not proven itself in the battlefield does not make sense. If anything else it may be that IFI is working on a joint partnership with someone else to develop a new controller that will set the new standard for robot control.

Look at what IFI did with VEX. They partnered with with Revell (see article at http://www.botmag.com/articles/06-07-07_vexplorer.shtml ), renamed the kit to vexplorer, and judging from the pictures, new kit offers some great new componets!

My two cents.:cool:

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

FIRST has already announced that they are moving to new controllers in 2009. They haven't specified who they are partnering with for this yet, so perhaps it's still IFI, but either way they definitely are moving away from the proven platform. That particular piece of information is not speculation.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Has anyone considered that FIRST may be moving to Parallax. If anyone remembers, the 2003 and older controllers used BASIC Stamp (I know until 2000, before that I'm not sure) which had a Parallax programmer. I just went to the Parallax website and found that they now have Transceivers that have the ability to control our robots. And recently they developed a new processor called the Propeller. It basically has 8 CPUs inside of it allowing it to multi task. I'm not sure of the programming language, but Parallax seems to have the right stuff for our robots. I will keep this in mine for the 2009 season, unfortunately I won't be in high school after 2008. This is just an idea, so I'm not saying that this is happening by anything I said, but it is a possibility.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

There are a LOT of systems out there now days that FIRST may be considering. A system that I have mentioned before that is cool is the QWERK developed by charmed labs. The current version developed for CMUs Robotics Institute has all of the motor control built onto the interface so I would presume that the power for this system, as is, would not be sufficient for FIRST current draws by motors. Possibly such a system would have a daughter board add on that could handle larger currents off the board much as does the IFI system with the Victor SC and Spike Relays.

So I am in the anxious mode but I am content on waiting to hear something official from FIRST:)

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

We posted a response to many of the questions asked, and the issues raised in a new thread.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...107#post633107

Regards,
Innovation First, Inc.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Going back to Bharat's original post, this email posted in a thread about FTC events in the Worcester area had me a little perplexed. There are lots of connections in FIRST across a lot of types of organizations (and I can't personally think of any case where those with such an overlap were misusing their position), but this seems odd.

Edit: It would be worth noting that the above-linked email is just one point of data. As with anything, one would be wise to get more information before taking a position on the topic.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

well IFI does offer a signal driver for non IFI controllers to be used with their motor control products.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

From Billfred's link:
I'm a little concerned by what I'm seeing here. While I realize that this is only one side of the story, it seems to me that (short of an outright refutation of the contents of this correspondence) FIRST is exercising their power as the FTC Affiliate Partner licensor in a very questionable manner.

I have to wonder why FIRST, in dealing with QCC and Ms. Lauer, would choose to deny them the FTC partnership based upon her son's employer. While it's apparent that there has been some sort of recent change in the nature of the relationship between FIRST and IFI, to discriminate against an IFI employee's mother's employer (i.e. QCC), on no basis other than the identity of his employer—it's startling. I'm frankly having trouble concieving of a situation whereby that decision represents fair dealing. Is Brad Lauer personally involved in the Worcester FTC competition in such a way that his participation would threaten some interest of FIRST's? And if so, why can't he simply step aside? Has this possibility been addressed?

FIRST styles itself as a responsible organization with responsible values. So why are they making life difficult for the Worcester FTC planning group? Does it do the students any good to make this decision? Does it advance FIRST's standing and prestige within the community? I don't think so, but would love to hear FIRST's side of the story to understand their motivation.

If I had more faith, I might be happy to forget about this, supposing that FIRST's internal politics would work themselves out promptly. I don't think that will happen. But what I do still hope to see is an explanation of why FIRST is seemingly making decisions that appear at face value to be biased against IFI and IFI's interests.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

That does sound a bit awkward. And I agree, why should all those teams suffer for this? To not recognize an event that apparently was very successful on the basis of a relationship, doesn't sound right to me.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

It seems to me that it might be time for FIRST to fully disclose what's going on between them and IFI.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Please close this thread.........too many questions are arising that can only lead to more dirty laundry being aired in a public forum and not contributing to the benefit of the either the FTC (or IFI's) program.

Thank you.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Agreed. I doubt that anybody with any real insight into what's going on is going to be able to say anything. If people who don't know the whole story speculate anyway, even if they guess right they won't be able to do anything about it, and if they guess wrong they'll be spreading bad feelings without cause.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I would typically agree, and I do actively advocate not spreading rumors....but when legitimate evidence for concern, such as the letter linked by Billfred from FIRST to Mrs. Lauer, arises, I feel that if they are made public, people, particularly the concerned parties, should be able to comment on them. This does not, however, allow for continued speculation, flaming, trolling, or fishing. I feel the thread should remain open, but heavily moderated (perhaps even moved to the moderated discussion section).

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Please do not close this thread. This has been a reasonable series of questions. I am very concrned by what I have read here. I feel that those who devote countless hours in support of FIRST's programs deserve some answers as to what has happened in Massachusetts, and what is happening with the relationship between IFI and FIRST.

-Mr. Van
Head Coach
Robodox
Granada Hills Charter High School

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I didn't mean to start any issues, just thought others in the area might be wondering if QCC was having an event again and what was going on. Once I found out why, figured this was a good place to share it so others in our spot would know. I don't think anyone has said anything mean or anything, so I hope I didn't do anything wrong or start something that needs to be closed. Plus it seems like the point of the forum is for teams and people to share information, discuss and talk about things going on in FIRST. I was very surprised to see the reasoning behind the change, especially since the QCC event was so cool last year and it looks like they offered to do it again this year. Every team we talked to said they had a great time at the Quinsig events and recommended we do it, that's why we were planning to start a FTC team.

Either way, this forum led us to the right info and now we still get to play at the quinsig events, so thanks to everyone who gave answers and helped. Too bad it won't be an FTC event, which sucks cause now we won't get a team number and can't qualify for Atlanta. Again, thanks QCC for still holding the events, we're really looking forward to it.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Please do not close this thread. There is obviously an issue going on here, and those who know something about it, I urge you to step forward and educate the rest of us. To close this thread would be to cover up an issue that seems to be getting increasingly worse in this organization. As someone trained in journalism for 2 1/2 years, I would like to know the facts. I invite representatives from both FIRST and IFI to tell their sides of the story so that the FIRST public may know what is going on in the organization to which they send thousands upon thousands of dollars of hard earned money each year.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

a web based public forum is not the place for the conversation that Beth has, in my opinion, correctly asked for. These types of talks must be done in private. Close the tread and start another one, in a moderated setting, where folks can urge the two parties to sit down and issue a joint statement.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

If you read what I wrote in this space before, please understand one thing. I'm one person, with one point of view. I believe in what I said, but I acknowledge that other perspectives are very different and I admit that saying things out of frustration isn't the best way to do business. Just know that whatever comes to pass, I'll always do my best to support the students and the community. The details beyond that are somewhat insignificant. I too wish I knew all there was to know here so we could look to the future with confidence. I look forward to that day as much as everyone else does.

Namaste

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

I think that FIRST and IFI may have already done that or are in the process of doing it. The problem is no one but those in high positions know whats going on so what really needs to happen is for FIRST and IFI to tell us whats going on.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

This is a very unique situation in that we have Chief Delphi. These forums were created for teams to share information and develop community, I think. That is my perception. Like many parts of the FIRST development, Chief Delphi has grown, developed, expanded, trying to accommodate the needs of the community.

In most places of business there is nothing like Chief Delphi for the clients to be able to develop community, celebrate, complain, question. Those businesses have vendors and clientele and they conduct business, often without their customers knowing when changes occur or why. For example, if I go to a place of business and try to purchase a product that I have been purchasing for 25 years and am told that it has been discontinued, there isn't much I can do about it except deal with the change and make a decision regarding the change.

I understand the thread and the questions being asked. I also understand the business aspect of this and what is appropriate to ask. If there were no Chief Delphi, the only places to ask would be with the business and vendor directly. I'm not suggesting this be done - I'm suggesting that we take great care with how we post on Chief Delphi and that we don't misuse its generosity or purpose in any way.

Re: Goodbye IFI?
 

Jane, I agree with your statement. Businesses must do what is appropriate to strengthen their organization by adjusting supply chains, and supply chains change because of pricing, logistics, quality, or the supplier stops existing entirely. I presume the changes stem from those issues in supply chain and FIRST, IFI, or both organizations felt a change was needed in order to meet long term goals. All businesses make adjustments in supply, their employees are responsible for the decisions (usually based on cost), and no customers have a say in the decision until they stop purchasing the product.

An example: A TV manufacturer must keep costs down to remain competitive on a certain model. A supplier of a component increases its pricing because they are redesigning the component to meet the needs of other TV manufacturers so they could sell one component across the board for all old and new TV models. The original manufacturer decides to drop that supplier and design the component themselves so they pay minimum and won't get more than they need (and like to pay for) in the component.

I have no idea what's going on, and probably shouldn't have even bothered posting. I'm just saying that I'm not surprised if/when large changes happen.