Number of members allowed in a team
 

I have a question about the amount of members allowed in a FIRST team (to be specific, an FRC team).

I remember our mentor told us that the FRC project is limited to 30 students.

I've currently seen lots of teams which have over 50 students in their team.

If school rules are not a concern, will we be allowed to hold a greater amount of members in our team, or is this rule based on FIRST's rules?

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

I have never seen a rule from FIRST that limits the number of students on a FRC team.

More than likely that is a school or team rule to help with the logistics of the team.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

FIRST doesn't have a rule in effect limiting the number of students on a team, however, somewhere in the rulebook, it says teams may want to impose certain limitations on students such as limiting the number of students, grade requirements etc., so yes you can hold a greater number of members on your team. Hope this answers your question.
Thanks
Malhon

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Nir,
I have not heard of FIRST addressing a specific team size. For the most part, sub teams should be limited to 6-10 members. This allows the work to get done even when team members don't show up but it doesn't make the group so large that there is nothing to do. We have had more than 60 students in a single year. Many of them have no interest in building or wiring the robot. They instead concentrate their efforts on Chairman's Award planning, strategy, video, public relations, animation, community involvement, etc. All team members meet once each week to hear team news, upcoming events and during build, sub team reports. It is during these meetings that forms are passed out, fund raising business is taken care of and grading reports and homework are received or passed to students. We meet all year long and the students receive grades and credit for their participation on this team.

Small teams generally concentrate on robot specific issues but will concentrate on other related problems after the ship date. I have seen teams with as little as three or four students and one teacher. It seems that many teams average about twenty students and consider themselves blessed to have two or three mentors. It seems that each year I hear about more teams trying to limit team size. They do this for a variety of reasons with logistics (budget and travel), and meeting room size being the more predominant factors. Many teams have adopted some form of entrance requirements to limit team numbers. I know of several teams that require an entrance essay that is used for selection. Some use an interview process, some limit participation to two years (or just juniors and seniors) some use a combination of all of these methods and some limit based on GPA. I firmly believe this last method is counterproductive. Some of our brightest students have come from the lower half of the class, only realizing their full potential once on the team. However, maintaining grades while on the team is very important.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Thank you everybody!

You're answers were more than I needed and are very useful in my opinion. :D
Any more tips about number of members in the team will be very appreciated! :)

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Our teams is not going to limit the number of members.
We have a problem on that very issue, we do not seem to be able to recruit more then 5 members.
We have been in FRC for 2 years now, Our first year, we had 7 members + 2 mentors.
thi year we had 3 members, 2 mentors, and 3 x-students, who graduated last year.

Hopefully, now that we will have an off season event in our school we will have more members...

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Teams may identify a specific number of members that they feel they can support so that the experience is meaningful to all. Influencing factors may include things like what is our budget and what does it pay for (ie if your students' travel expenses are paid for, how many students can you afford to have on the team), how many mentors/adult volunteers/chaperones do we have, how big is our meeting space, is our team focusing primarily on the robot or have we expanded to include animation, Chairman's Award, team spirit, etc.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We have tried to limit our team to no more than 35 members, for two reasons. One is the size of our meeting space. The other is that with a larger team we run out of tasks for the students. There is only so many buttons you can make!

Al's comment on subteams is true as well. Depending on the subteam, with more than 6 you do see idle hands and bored students. We have a large number of subteams though - mechanical, programming, electrical, web, Chairman's, etc. The mechanical is actually more than 6 students as it is broken down in sub-sub teams, depending on the robot - chassis, arm, lifter, whatever is needed that year.

We are blessed that we enough mentors so that there is at least one for each subteam

Last year we had too many students apply for the team so we had the freshman start a Vex team, that we funded, with the agreement that any who wanted would automatically be on the FRC team the next year.

I know some teams limit the number of students because of travel costs, but on our team students pay their own travel so any who want to go is allowed.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

The amount of members and mentors on a team is equal to the amount of resources the team can obtain.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

There is no limit, only to however many students the team can support. Often, you'll find many teams follow the traditional 90-10 ratio.....of 100% of members that are listed, 10% show up. I know that for some larger schools, robotics teams have had tryouts to accomodate only those who are committed, but for the teams I've worked with, membership has been open to all.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

That made me think of something else that has come up in the past. If you are affiliated with a school, you may wish to find out if you are considered to be a "team" or a "club". The definition may indicate if you are eligible for school funding, if you need to belong to any organizations which govern interscholastic teams, or if you can hold tryouts (a "team") or must accept any student who wishes to join the group (a "club") which means you might end up with a large number of students. It might also determine rules about overnight, out-of-state travel where students are absent from school. And if they can earn Varsity letters.
It's been my experience that teams are afforded more priviledges than clubs, so it's worthwhile checking out.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

I'll jump in with a few cents worth. There are a lot of good comments here.

Everyone's circumstances are a little different. There is no one "best" way to run a team. But I'm sure we could reduce it to maybe 5 or 6 major trends or models.

Our model is similar to how a Habitat for Humanity house works. There are few 'experts' but nearly everyone gets to pitch an idea, turn a bolt, cut a bracket, crimp a wire.

The other end of the spectrum has a small group of intense 'gearheads' with a higher level of technical competency. This group tends to foster high levels of technical accomplishment by the students.

There are valid arguments for both ends of the spectrum but I will not elaborate since it is outside the scope of this thread.

When the build seasons starts, we would like to cycle everyone through the build around a core build team so that everyone had a chance to 'turn a screw' ala H4H. It gets students excited when they can point to a part of the robot they they assembled, even though it may have been designed by a core build group.

Try to have as many as possible participate in the build, either as a designer or an assembler. Most will be assemblers.

Then try to have each person participate in one or two more areas as a specialty, like safety or marketing, etc. Real life is like that. Few employed people get pure music degrees. It is always music <something> like music education, music business, music marketing, etc. So get your students to do 'robotics' <something>. Work on the robot and do the <something>.

I think it important to develop a plan early. The REAL reason FIRST asks teams (and give awards) for business plans isn't to bore you to tears, but to help teams get their head around what they are trying to do and how they are going to accomplish that.

Our team leaders and mentors have spent the summer writing a 2 year business plan. From there it starts to get a lot easier to set goals and expectations, of the team and each of the members. Then you can see your personnel needs for the plan and start getting them to work.

Like many students, I didn't use to be very interested in 'business plans' either. Many years ago in my engineering career I served on the staff of an important Vice president in a Fortune 500 company. I noticed that there were times that he asked for a presentation of some organization about some large upcoming project. The presentation had to be done on date X.

The VP wasn't a micromanager nor even that interested in the subject of the presentation. He had people on his staff that would "throw the darts". The VP's agenda was simply to build a fire under the organization and get them to focus on the plan and get it together.

So start at the top. What do you want the team to accomplish this year ? Make a plan, identify resources (people, money) and execute. A good plan has the effect of telling you how to keep an army of people busy.

"Let the Plan be with you"

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Haha, I don't think that our team would ever take well to a rule that would limit the number of team members. If i recall correctly, once our team composed of 75-80 people. :p

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We don't have a specific rule, but usually try to stay around 35.

With this number, we can keep the student / mentor relationship such that we can keep all students busy and invlved. We also have limited shop and computer lab space, so if we got much bigger there would be no where to put people.

This number has given us a good mix of students from each grade and for each sub-team.

We are a 'team', have interviews, and can limit our numbers if needed.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Our team (team 65) does limit the number of people that’s on the team. You have to go through a interview process. Then there is about 20 people selected for the team.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

So if someone doesn't make grades, or gets suspended for hacking the network, never shows up, or some other awful thing, (s)he can still be on the team?

If no, then you already have a rule that limits the number of team members.

Don

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We will initially accept all applicants - The team becomes 'self-selecting' because the activities and workload will filter out those that don't become inspired, or are not willing to work, etc.

disciplinary issues are easy - the minimum criteria is set by the school district and we can add more to that. That is another form of self-selection.

Just because a student is enrolled in a school doesn't mean that they will pass classes and graduate.

Just because a student's name is on the team roster early in the season doesn't mean they will maintain eligibility to attend a competition or remain on the roster at year end. A certain level of participation is required. And a higher level is required to 'letter'.

Ed

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We are considered a home school team but allow students from any area schools to join. We are not connected with any school and are able to allow students of good Character to join, but if some one is causing trouble or safty problems we can ask them to leave. Doing this we end up with great students that want to be thier and actualy become close frends. It also gives a chance for students from schools with out a team to get involved in FIRST. Unfortunately most schools do not allow students from other school to join thier team but wouldn't it be a nice idea. We usually have 10 to 19 students in a year and they cycle through the week and at any given time we have about 6 ro 7 students avalable to work on the robot. This works very well and allows all the students to be part of the robot build. On Saturday every body shows up and then we have our hands full but with helpfull parents bringing food and drink we all have a good time.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Yes that team size of 20 with 6 cycling through per session works very well. We do the same. Saturdays are a challenge because most all people show up, but we also have the most mentors that day too. The mentors and team leadership have to get their head around how to handle the large Saturday event.

During the build, we do Monday, Tuesday, Thursday 4 to 7 (sometimes finishing earlier) and Saturday 9 to 4.

Re disciplinary issues: School district policy is almost always in place regarding issues of behavior and grades and such. Finding out the policy rules is good for the team to know and is available from the administration. Obviously home schools are different.

Some schools don't allow students from other schools or from home schools, some do. Policy across the country varies by school district.

Many school districts allow students from other high schools across the county school district to participate on a single team. I think Gwinnett County GA, Horry and Marion County SC is in that category.

I know there are school districts that allow home schoolers to participate on a high school team. I cannot think of a specific example but I have seen them. Cobb County GA doesn't. To a large degree I think this issue is dependent on how the local political wind is blowing. You would think that since home school parents are tax payers also they would have eligibility to participate. Districts that disallow participation don't want to open the 'can of worms' regarding home schools because then they would have to allow home school students to participate in other activities and the district isn't prepared for the administrative burden required to manage it.

The districts that do allow it have obviously found a way to handle it. One potential problem with public school students participating with home school teams is related to how does the public school student get the day off to participate at competition. If the school doesn't want to support a team, and doesn't want to support a student on another team, then that is a big problem. Again, your mileage will vary, depending on your local political/administrative winds.

Outside of the home school issue, Cobb County is highly supportive of FIRST.

Ed

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We have no size limit as of now but currently we do have a semester long "tryout" to join the team, that pretty much consists of mentoring FLL teams and hosting several robotics competitions. Afterwards there is an interview but usually most people who have been active been active and have met the grades requirements are welcomed aboard.

Pavan.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

What you are talking about is restricting a person from participating on a team. However, what I meant was that there is no rule regarding the number of students allowed on said team. The two things are definitely not the same. We have actually had some of these cases (sadly) regarding members of the team, and they were removed for some reason or the other. But that still does not deter any number of well behaved students from joining. But I sort of get what you mean.

EDIT: lol, I am actually wearing a 1676 shirt while writing this. hehehe =)

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We set it up at our school, we do in house VEX Competitions, we even have one where the 2 other high schools in our district compete. So 3-4 student will build a robot for this, and last year I want to say each school brought 5-6 teams. This gives the newer guys a chance to see what it about, and see if they want to step up to the FIRST team. We also have 2 different sections of robotics at our school. The first class is Building Basic Robots, where students will build lego and VEX robots, and some ROV's, and this class is open to everyone. The next section is Robotics Engineering which is an ROP course open to Juniors and Seniors, in these classes we work on the FRC, FVC, and the MATE Underwater Competition. Unfortunetly the FRC team is the most neglected, and we are still trying to develop how the program will work. But we get a new building that will be exclusive for ROP, and Robotics is pretty much the Only ROP class. So we shall see...

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

We don't limit the size... I think we find the team self limits it's self.

We started at 15 people in 2002.
Then 35 in '03
Then 65 in '04
Then 70 in '05
Then 70 in '06

You should experience a Saturday Build with 35-40 students and 3 mentors, where 97% of people have something to do... it's just incredible. And incredibly difficult to pull off, sadly.

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

Don't forget all the "non-gearhead jobs". There is a limit to how many people can be hands-on on the robot at any given time, but there are also:

Webmasters
Animators
Photographers
Videographers
Writers
Logistics Specialists (travel, hotels, shipping)
Accountants
Graphic Designers

etc.

While our team started out as a bunch of gearheads from the tech studies department, once we had enough sponsorship to support a larger team (thank you, again, General Motors Canada) we were able to partner up with our school's business education and math departments and involve an entirely different group of students in the team. For many of these students this was their first exposure to a technical project, and while their job may have been writing about the project, understanding torque, power, current, centre of gravity and coefficients of friction well enough to write about them was a great educational opportunity.

One of the great things about FIRST is that it scales very nicely from small teams of "builders" focussed on a robot, to large teams of people from a broad range of backgrounds.

Jason

Re: Number of members allowed in a team
 

294 hasn't had a size limit in recent years.

We've had up to 20 kids I think, the only problem is that with that many, we got 4-5 we had to babysit the whole time.

I think there shouldn't be a max, just the ability to remove who really don't belong (I'm talking about behavior issues).