Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

This is a significant step for the state of Kentucky to take. What do you all think - will this be a motivator for students to stay in school? How would it affect your school?

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

i know it would make me concentrate on school a lot more than i already do, its an interesting tid-bit of info to have tho

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Actually I think that it will do nothing. The reason why is because we have about that same law here in Indiana with the addition of loosing it for 6 weeks when you get suspended. The only problem is that the people who get suspended or fail most every course are still driving even with the school knowing it. This might make a difference at first, but the student's will find a way to get by with it.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

This isn't losing your ability to drive to school, it is losing you ability to drive anywhere.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I kind of like it. It will encourage students to stay in school and actually try at it. It is a great step for Kentucky. This will definitley help students.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Either by getting rides, or trying to avoid getting caught.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm not sure how I feel on the subject. I think that the motives of the Kentucky lawmakers are for the common good, and that in a perfect world, teens would take their schooling more seriously if they knew that their license would be revoked.

However, I also know that there are many students whose only way of getting to school would be driving (because their parents work or busing is not available and the school is too far away to walk). Sadly, I think some of these students would just drop out of school if their license was revoked.

I think that the law is good for the most part, though, because students might learn to take their education more seriously. And we all know that education is one of the most important keys to success.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm trying to decide how this helps. Many students drop out of school because they're workings and helping support their families. I'm uncertain how removing an otherwise basic right from these people helps at all. In addition... This is the state punishing a citizen by removing an otherwise accorded right for failing classes. It's almost making failing a criminal act. I mean.. you would think that the department of transportation has the right to regulate drivers licenses based on the recipient's ability to drive. Age I can see having something to do with it. Driving record and moving violations, sure. Not passing geometry and poli sci? What does that have to do with driving?

Mostly, I think the state is using a punitive power in a completely inappropriate fashion in a vain attempt to solve a serious problem in a completely useless way.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

That sounds like a good way to keep kids in school, like an incentive...just wouldn't really work. How old does the student have to be so that this doesn't apply, just 17? A person 17 may not be able to attend school because they have to work to feed their family. California hasn't adopted something like that, although parents have the choice to take away their child's license.

The attendance policy doesn't really determine anything. Maybe just whether or not the student has ditched class, but not the student's knowledge and ability to drive.
Last year, I had like, 8 absences 1st Semester and 11 absences in some classes 2nd Semester, due to sickness (Pericarditis), and traveling to regional events. Our school policy is that you cannot have over 10 absences in a class. If you do, you will have a meeting with the Assistant Academic Principal to go over your grades and all. I was fortunately never called in, and I was in good standings in all of my classes.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Interesting. Here in California, it wouldn't work. Unless they made every officer memorize the license plate red-flag list, they are legally unable to pull you over until you violate a traffic law.

This seems to be the next version of the change from waiting 6 months to having to wait a year before once can drive their friends in a car. It's the law, yes, but no one follows it unless they have their parents breathing down their necks.

As for the intent of the law, I disagree. Usually if a student isn't doing that well in school, it has to do with a lack of support; parental, teacher related, or other reasons. If you then take away their means of transportation, they're not going to be as happy about going to school. If I were already failing, and then were denied the ability to get myself to the school that I was failing in, I would most likely drop out right then and join the military.

Just my two cents.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

That's definitely one of the major fallacies I see with this new law. For some students, the law will maybe be an incentive. But for others, it could make the difference between staying in school and dropping out.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

/in my best cop voice/ "let me see your license, registration, and latest report card please"

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Truthfully, looking at real life, I see lots of kids in our school that would say a variety of words when this would happen to them, then just drop out like they don't care (mostly because they really don't care). It will be those who are struggling and who do care a little bit that this will effect. They will try harder and hopefully find help.

But, as brought up (and although it contrasts what I said a little bit ago) there will be those who it will not bother them to have their license taken, and they will find other means, and end up breaking the law. And it's not going to be easy for the law to find them out if they do drive. How are they to tell whose dropped out or whose failed a few courses (drop outs will be a little easier to find durring the school day).

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Not sure about where you live, but here in New Jersey it is made abundantly clear that driving is a privilege not a right.

My opinion is that if KY is trying to keep kids in school and working at it, this will succeed. I'm not a big fan of Government, myself, and this new policy is a little bit Orwellian, but I am a huge fan of education.

Don

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

We pretty much have this law in NC, if you're under 18, you have to have a certificate from your school saying you are passing enough classes, are in school etc. to get a license/permit. After that, if the school informs the NCDMV that you have dropped below the requirements, your license is removed. In my experience, the law doesn't really have much effect.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

In this case, it's a privilege that, prior to this, you were giving to any citizen that could pass a driving test and wasn't found to be driving unsafely.

I mean... It has to be some sort of very important privilege if they only make this suspension applicable to minors that aren't of voting age. They don't even suspend the license of convicted felons. I just looked in Indiana, and all of the license suspensions involve traffic violations or crimes committed in a car, save for: being suspended from school, dropping out (unless due to financial hardship, thank goodness), failure to pay child support, or graffiti. I'm still trying to figure out how failing classes would fit in with any of that other stuff.

I'm really just very, very confused about how this is supposed to help, since it just doesn't seem like an effective deterrent and more importantly, seems like it will just make it even harder for a student to recover and pass once they do have their license suspended.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Definitions:

Leadership - The ability to get a person to do something that they ordinarily wouldn't own their own.

Stick - A form of 'negative' feedback used to motivate a person. Example, Kentucky driving law.

Carrot - A form of 'positive' feedback used to motivate a person. Example, FIRST FRC, FTC, FLL, JFLL programs.

Physics - One carrot plus one stick = twice the motivational force.

Conclusion - If Kentucky wants to double the motivational force, they need to put a FIRST program in every school.

Q.E.D.


Ok, that was goofy but fun.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

State law presumably allows minors to drop out of school at some age (16?), and yet if they do so, this new law labels them "academically deficient", and prevents them from having a valid driver's licence? Isn't that nonsensical by definition? They're not academically anything, since they're legally and willingly not participating in school. That issue may become one for the courts, if someone with the proper standing works up the funds to challenge it.

Perhaps more pointedly, they've raised the stakes with respect to the responsibilities accorded their various boards of education. Should the administrators of these schools and boards have to deal with the ramifications of reporting their own students to the DOT? After all, if a failing student were stripped of his licence, he might feel that his school ratted him out to the DOT, and he might blame them for his situation. If the school is perceived as a villain, how can they work with him to improve his academic performance (since he distrusts them)? (What will that do to the school's No Child Left Behind scores? I'm sure those are always on school boards' minds....)

I'm in agreement with Kevin, that the state is trying wrongheadedly to solve a serious issue that afflicts their young population. As is unfortunately too often the case, they're imposing punitive measures on something that can't be solved by alienating the very people they hope to help. It's like trying to help the poor by making homelessness illegal.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Hmm... this is interesting.

I think this sort of thing is at the discretion of the parents. If they feel the kid shouldn't drive due to poor grades, then either don't let them get their license or don't let them drive.

The state has no right to be telling people that they can't drive due to poor grades (well, technically they do, but they shouldn't!). They don't know what's going on in that family. Any sort of family problems can cause grades to drop, the kid could be a fine student but once there's serious trouble in the family that distracts that kid from their schoolwork, things can change. It could be loss or severe illness of a close family member, a divorce, parents losing their jobs, and other extremely stressful situations.

On the contrary, if they are failing because they don't care, then simply taking their license away for a year or two wont change anything.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I hate how the government* thinks they know everything. One of my friends' brothers has been driving [without a license] for 3 years, until he turned 18 [he now has a real one] and he did it because he worked and his parents worked too and there was no other way. He was in school, and than he dropped out and started working full time. I don't understand why what politicians say is right, should be praised...Driving isn't a privilege, its a necessity!

* I am specifically talking about the American politicians and their politics. In many other places [not all] they don't think that they are gods, above all power, with infinite rights.
...

EDIT
I don't think FIRST in every school is a good idea. I may go as far as saying robotics in every school is a good idea, but I think there are many other effective programs other than FIRST and that FIRST to me is becoming more and more like a corporation trying to create a monopoly for robotics education with this 'FIRST in every school' mumbo jumbo. Botball and BEST definitely kick FIRST's butt in many areas in the big picture and the VEX platform [since it has been dropped by FIRST] is equally as great. FIRST costs WAY TOO MUCH to be put in every school.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

So says the Marxist.

:P

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I believe that this measure has the potential to help the educational systems. However, my belief is that it will likely contribute to a growing divide between "academic all-star schools" and poverty-ridden schools. This separation has been evident since before the No Child Left Behind Act, and is certainly a problem. A few reasons:

1) Schools with excellent academic and attendance records whose students generally are on top of the academic game and may or may not need to work full-time to support their families will retain their students.

2) On the other hand, schools who already have tremendous attendance and/or academic performance issues won't be drastically improved by such a measure.

3) It's not always about the entire state - every student counts. What if a student relies on public transportation to get to school, and commutes an hour each way, every single day? Losing something they never had won't motivate them, it will only act as a scolding factor, a "you're not good enough" message on top of any insecurity they may be feeling in failing a class, or the pressures of having to support a family.

The concept is very well intentioned and I'm glad it is on their minds, I am just concerned for the students that have more to worry about than that piece of plastic in their pocket.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

So you drop out of school and loose your license....

What is the 16 or 17 year old to do?

How are they going to support themselves without the ability to drive legally?

It's sad to say but even teenagers have bills to pay these days.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

There are students who struggle to help support their family, their family business while still trying to stay in school. It can be very difficult. I've witnessed this and it hurts my heart. I've also known students who are first generation high school students/graduates and who are attempting to be first generation college students/graduates. This is the year 2007 and we are still struggling with finding ways to encourage education for our students as a critical priority in our society. I'm not sure this would be considered encouraging.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

You know when a person get to the point to where they may be too old to safely operate a car, or they no longer have the eyesight or coordination, their lisence should be revoked, but that would be AGE DISCRIMINATION. Yet there are familys that require teens to be able to drive for the sake of younger children or for their jobs to bring in income for the household. I am sorry but that is pure AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Here in Vancouver the police are enlisting technology to assist with this problem.... on-car cameras automatically capture license plates and compare them to a database of stolen/unlicensed vehicles.

As to whether this a law like this is a good idea, so long as it allows the school officials some discretion as to when it is applied simply gives schools another tool to help encourage those few students who need a little extra encouragement to help focus on making a serious academic effort.... but like any tool it would need to be used wisely and judiciously. For instance a student with a learning disability may be serious, hard working and responsible, yet still fail a course. A normally dedicated student who is undergoing a personal crisis of some kind may miss several days of school. In neither case would it be appropriate to use this tool... but those decisions are best made on a case by case basis.

As for students who don't fit in to the traditional high school setting, at least here in BC there are a number of ways to complete graduation requirements, including on-line learning, alternative education centres and adult education programs. Students enrolled in these programs would not be considered academically deficient by our standards.

Based on my experiences as both a high-school student and high-school teacher, I believe that a law such as this -- used wisely and with discretion -- would help motivate some students, and certainly result in some small net benefit to both those students and society in general.

But mostly I just wanted to post the link to that cool license plate scanning video.

Jason

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Yes, it is. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it is wrong, regardless of the font size in which it is written. Many acts of discrimination, including age discrimination, are necessary for the efficient functioning of society. I look forward to the day when we have a quick and efficient measure of maturity (and driving ability!), but until that point voting ages, drinking ages, and driving ages will use the crude -- but efficient -- method of measuring how long you have been alive as a rough guide to determining an individual's maturity and responsbility levels. In many ways this law attempts to further refine a measure of maturity and responsibility for drivers by linking their mature and responsible attitudes towards education to their mature and responsible attititudes towards driving.

Don't feel that it is only young people who get stung with age discrimination, please, older people will pay higher health and life insurance premiums. Some will face mandatory retirement at age 65 (often earlier in some careers), or be unable to collect pension benefits before reaching a certain age. There are also several laws that protect people under a certain age, including young offender laws that realize that young people sometimes do stupid things that should not be allowed to haunt them for the rest of their lives.... because they are not mature enough to be entirely responsible for their actions.

As for the issues of older drivers having difficulty maintaining their youthful reflexes, you have a fair point... it would make a great deal of sense to have all drivers retested every five years or so, regardless of age.... however if you look at the statistics, young drivers (particularly males) are much, much more likely to be involved in a motor vehicle collision than older drivers, so it makes sense to focus on the most dangerous drivers first, does it not?

Jason

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Driving is not a right.

I do agree that some teens do leave school to support their families though this is not as common as it once was.

This is just Kentucky's lawmakers passing a law to say we care about education for the upcoming election year.
If they were really serious about education they would look at the root of problem.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Politics... I told ya, a lot of stupid laws with tons of loop holes will be passed and have been passed all the way up until November [and hopefully gas prices will drop too]. I guess its our [the American people over 18] fault that we voted those people in, eh?

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I say live with it the best you can. You loose your license, ride your bike. I hardly drive anywhere (winter may change that).

But, driving is fun and useful. I just don't use the full advantage of it an probably won't for a while. I don't drive to school yet, but I also don't have a job. Even when I do get a job, I probably will only drive when weather is bad enough. There are other options to take (considering most work close to home).

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

While driving does play a very important role in many people's lives, it is far from being a necessity. There are other ways to get where you need to go: buses, taxis, bikes, rollerblades, skateboards, or just old-fashioned walking.

Some would argue that the places they need to be are too far away to use such modes of transportation. However, I'm just trying to prove that there are other ways to get to places--even if a person doesn't want to use them. One can wake up an hour earlier and ride their bike. Or even earlier and walk. Not driving does create extra effort from people. In my opinion, though, driving is a privilege--you don't need to drive to live. (which would make it a necessity). However, I still don't think I agree with the new law, because I think it has more drawbacks than positive attributes.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Just for some information from up here in Ontario. When you reach a certain age you must be retested every 2 years to retain your license. There are also medical issues that can remove your license.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

a) FIRST is NOT a monopoly and has done nothing to promote that. A successful growing organization is not inherently bad.

b) Corporations are not inherently 'bad' either, contrary to the noise spouted by some politicians in order to get votes.

c) FIRST in every school isn't 'mumbo jumbo'. FIRST would be happy with any thing that a school can do to improve learning and inspiration. If the school can find a program that better fits their needs then they should certainly pursue it. There are FIRST teams, mentors, and sponsors that also participate in these other programs.

d) What is the definition of 'kicks FIRST's butt' ? Is it cost ? Sporting fun ? Educational Impact ?

e) Cost are relative. It is costly relative to what most people carry around in their pocket as disposable income. It is cheap relative to the educational and economic impact that the community derives from this activity. I can give examples but it is outside the scope of this thread.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Guilty until proven innocent?
Lame.

Btw, in response to this thread I got my license after I graduated HS by choice. In this case, what was to stop me from not going to school, or failing some classes??

This may solve some problems, and create more but it certainly does not address the whole HS attending teenage community.

I've never had any feelings on choosing to live or not to live in certain states in the US, but today I'm kinda glad I don't live in Kentucky right about now.

It will be interesting to see how many states follow suit in the enacting of this law, and when. (Horray for an election year!)

I want to see some statistics a year from now on how this is affecting the state's HS attendence but I don't see this as being a move in a positive direction as of right now.

Btw in response to:

I submit the following: http://kchr.ky.gov/complaintform.htm

Fight government with government if you feel violated. :)

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm not sure the techinicalities on insurance with regards to having a license or not. If lose your license, would the insurance company be forced to drop you even if you've already paid (i.e. issue a prorated refund)?

If so, I simply forsee an increase in the amount of uninsured motorist accidents.

I definitely agree with this spectrum of thinking. There is always a way to change or circumvent the contrary, and that is part of the point of FIRST.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I know of several kids at my former high school who drove not only without a license, but without insurance. Most of the time, those are the same kids that are failing because they don't care (I know there are exceptions, but a lot of kids at my old high school just didn't care). If the kids here are the same as the kids there, this law will really only deter a few kids; You may say, that makes it worth it, but I think the same amount of money could be spent in better ways to motivate even more kids.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Yes, we have pretty much the same law, but not as strict on the education side. Here (NC) you can only fail one class before you license or permit is taken. If you drop out, you have to wait untill your 18 before you can get your license. I think for some the law can be a small, overlook, yet important fator in schooling. Luke's point is that a license isn't a big enough factor to someone planning on dropping out of school, and those who want to graduate are already planning on passing 3/4 classes anyways.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

a) The attitude of MANY people involved with FIRST believe in "FIRST in every school" no questions asked. FIRST Lego League, FIRST Tech, or FIRST robotics. I think that even if it is NOT the goal of FIRST, this attitude is going to try to make it a monopoly because sooner or later it will be in every state's legislation to fund FRC teams in high schools. I think that it is wrong. And btw, DK is the one pushing on this legislation.

b) I meant everything that comes with the negative connotation of corporation.

c) FIRST IS NOT RIGHT FOR EVERY SCHOOL. There are MANY other robotics programs with the same success rates. And I don't believe in 100% inspiration, I believe in 100% teaching them about SciTechEng, so they make informed decisions and keep in mind the worlds needs when ever they become older. I could care less [to a degree] whether 100 people become engineers or 10 people become engineers through any robotics program AS LONG AS those other 90 people realize what the world needs and votes/supports engineering in some way shape or form.

d) Cost and educational impact. 1 program comes to mind, Botball. Students learn to program AND it is fairly inexpensive in comparison to FIRST.


[Lost so I'll try to respond with 2 points I thought tried to make]
e)Agreed, and FIRST maybe one of the leaders [behind Battlebots...] when it comes to showing people about robotics and getting the most public impact per dollar. At the same time, you don't need robotics to force you to do community service, etc., there are other programs that teach students about gracious professionalism, the only difference is that Woodie Flowers is not the one who explains it to these other non robotics people, its mentors, teachers, and other students in their community that students have respect for.

Pavan.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Im sorry but your friend was stupid. In fact he's dam lucky that he didn't do more harm than good. Im assuming that without his license he didn't have insurance. Without insurance he could be sued if he got into an accident. Since he was a minor his parents were legally responisable for his actions. It's a privilege because you have to be responsible for your actions on the road. You break the law you loose your license. Of course I agree that this law is overboard because for some people it is a necessity but you need a license/insurance first.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I think you are making a valid point, if FIRST was really all about forming a monopoly.
However, I don't think that is what FIRST or FIRST-associated people have in mind when they say "FIRST in every school". I think they want every child to have the opportunity to be a part of the FIRST organization, because it is a positive outlet for the youth of today to be involved in.

State legislatures might (in the future) incorporate a law that funds FRC programs in high schools. However, this does not mean that every high school will take advantage of the funding. The state is not going to force the money upon the high schools. They will, however, have a fund for those who DO wish to be a part of the FIRST community who may have no other way of starting a team. I don't see a problem with allocating money towards schools who wish to offer their students a vast array of academic extra-curriculars, especially FIRST-related ones, since it has been known to have a positive effect on most who have been involved with the program.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm getting a little confused - do we now have 2 distinct topics in this thread?
a. the Kentucky law regarding No Pass No Drive

and

b. FIRST in Every School?

--

Not that I'm confused or anything but after all, it is only Monday. And, oh, where is my coffee? :)

Edit: no wait, I said I was confused, well, just a little. This is bad, I'm starting to talk to myself.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

hahaha. I'm a little bit confused myself! Actually, after posting that last reply, I thought I might have posted it in the wrong thread before I looked at the previous discussions here!

:)

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm sorry Jane, that is pretty much my fault. This discussion went from the Kansas law [which the rest of my post is geared towards], and my previous post, which was based on Ebarker's post about FIRST in every school, and my disagreement with that viewpoint. BUT now back to the Kentucky law discussion:


Actually where I live there aren't buses outside of Houston*, or many taxis, and roller-blading/skateboarding/walking is out of the question for a location about 15-20 miles away. Not to mention that not every big road has sidewalks.

*There are busses that go from outside Houston to inside Houston and then there you can get anywhere in downtown through the buses, but outside Houston there are only stops that take you to and from downtown, or at least the ones that I've seen outside of downtown.


He may not have been the brightest crayon in the box, or even in the top half if you want to point it out that way, but just because you don't have a license or insurance doesn't mean you're the devil? Also from what I hear, he is a very safe driver. He has yet to be pulled over by the police for any reason in his five or six years, but his car was insured. Saying that just because he wasn't [note the past tense] with insurance/license doesn't mean he was careless or irresponsible. He was [and still is to my knowledge still is] a [positive] contributing member of society.


Pavan.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

There are thousands--perhaps even millions--of people who do not have a car to get to work/school everyday who use the aforementioned modes of transportation to get to where they need to be. Of course, this does mean that one must have the drive (drive meaning determination, in this case) to travel to their destination. I'm sure you can ask anyone who doesn't have a car if a car is a necessity, and they will tell you that it definitely is not. While a car definitely makes life easier and travelling less of a hassle, it is not a right or a necessity, but a privilege.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Sure, but asking people for rides isn't really the best way to move, and hitchhiking is by far one of the most dangerous methods of travel for a 15-17 year old [male or female], IF you're even lucky somebody is headed the direction you want to go.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Let's name a few. If you still want to stay toward the car side, it's a wonderful thing called carpooling. Otherwise, bicycles are an excellent form of transpotation. Their so versatile.

Edit:Saw Pavan's last response. Seiously, try carpooling. It might be awkward to ask, but it is efficient.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I would never tell someone to hitch hike, because a) that's EXTREMELY dangerous to do, and b) illegal (at least in Indiana/Illinois, although I do believe it is illegal in most states...) I never mentioned hitch hiking or asking for rides in my previous posts, though. I simply said that if a person really needed to be somewhere, they could easily find a way to get there without needing their own car.

However, in regards to the school situation in Kentucky, I do agree that there are a lot of teeneagers who do not have that drive to go to school. Taking their car away would probably make them think that they had no other way of getting there, so they would eventually just drop out. (This, of course, will not necessarily happen to everyone, but could potentially happen to many.)

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I don't think you understood me.
I'm not even talking about this happening during school. I'm talking about this summer, between school and work I had a week off and [I have a valid license and insurance btw] I faced this same situation one day, and I couldn't find any ride from family or friends, and it was to a location a bus did not go IF I could even get to the bus somehow, so I ended up missing the thing I had to go to. I did ask many people alternate ways of getting from point A to B and nobody could help me come up with a plausible solution. I am speaking of my own experience, not assuming something or another. It was impossible, and I sure couldn't have walked what takes 30 minutes by car to get to.

And car pools only go so far, or at least the ones I know of and tried to get a hold of.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

i think u forgot the segway

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

:)
Good call.
I like segways.
I wish I had one!

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

You can't insure a car if he didn't have a driver's licensce. I can't really put the entire blame on him either because the parents should have realized how stupid his actions were too. As I said before you basically gambling with your parents house even if he was a perfect driver which is somewhat callous or naive. Though this is getting off topic now.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Forget Cars! I'm riding a segway to school!

I will have to admit, that is a decent bike ride, 60 miles round trip. Unless you wanted to leave three hours before the activity.

But, yeah, that is an exception and a good example. The average person isn't going to ride a segway or a bike that far or for that long. And it's not like you can always prevent that situation. Sometimes you just have to face the fact and try to call and tell the group/organizer why you can't make it.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

So now that we have agreed that sometimes it is impossible to make it, lets say that it is the summer still, and that "event" is your job, and you can drive [with your parents permission which disregards the law]. Now you can get to work, and you can do it with parental permission and as long as you don't do anything stupid, you won't get pulled over. Now I'm just putting it out there, and saying that some people, provided the conditions above, MIGHT NOT WILL, try and put 2 + 1.5 together to what seems like 4 rounded up. Do you think that this instance ever comes up?

By the way, I am not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES condoning any kind of illegal activities, I am just trying to shed light on the other side of the story and those other factors that people don't usually take in when making up their mind, especially in this HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

Pavan

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I'm sure that this instance comes up quite often. However, a person who decides to go against the law and drive without a license/without insurance--no matter if they have their parent's permission or if they are extremely safe drivers who have never been pulled over for anything--are still breaking a law. I understand that there are special circumstances in which a person will need to get to one place or another, but that doesn't mean it's okay to break the law. Getting your parent's permission doesn't really have anything to do with making it okay to drive without a license. And parents should never condone an illegal activity. Even if a person is a safe driver, there are other drivers that could cause a horrific accident. What happens if another driver slams into you, completely totalling your car? Their insurance company will find out that you didn't have a license and that you didn't have insurance, and therefore will make you and your parents ultimately responsible for paying for your own damage and possibly the damage to the other vehicle. And that doesn't even scratch the surface on the punishment one would receive for driving without those important documents (license and insurance).

After re-reading your last post, I think you were just saying isn't it possible that this happens all the time? If so, then yes. That is very possible, and almost a certainty that it does. But, underage drinking occurs all the time. And sometimes it occurs with parental consent. That doesn't mean that we should remain idle and not try to stop it, right?

I also apologize if I am rambling or don't make sense...it's kind of late, so sorry in advance to all!

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

If you truly have to be there, a taxi isn't out of the question.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

If you know in advance that you'll need a ride, there are always possibilities. There's an entire industry devoted to meeting the needs of non-drivers to get to and from remote locations.
You took a summer job that requires you to drive, but you don't have a driver's license? Sorry, I'm not going to take any arguments seriously if they start with such a silly assumption.
As I said in my private message, this situation is not so much "hypothetical" as it is "contrived".

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

To have to pass at least 4 courses, that would be about 1/2 the day - I'm thinking.
Are there marginal students that this would help? Those on the line of staying in school or dropping out/failing.

(Thank you for the apology, Pavan.)

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I will agree with Alan, if you take up a job that requires you to drive, but you have no license, then you are out of your mind.

On the other side, if you are in that situation where you can't get a ride on short notice, then call your boss/manager and try to get them to understand and take whatever consequences that is given to you. If you do get fired because of this, then don't mope around about it. If they didn't fire you for doing this continuously, then your boss must have been a jerk anyhow.

Most realizing and understanding boss's wouldn't punish you, but warn you. Just remember, that if it is a continuous thing (at least once a month), then you either need to learn better planning, time management, and communication, or you are just in some freaky position where your family and friends just don't keep promises :eek: . Not like they would do that at all (hopefully).

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

Getting back to the original poster's question:

What is the intent of this law, to improve education? To win votes by appearing to address a problem in the easiest way possible? It sounds like more "nanny state" legislation to me.

Remember that, in life, failure IS an option. :ahh:

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

I teach in a school designed for drop-outs who decide to return to finish their diplomas or get GED's. When we offered driver's ed, the kids in the class used to drive to school to take the class - it was weird.

If it isn't against the law to drop out of school at 16, how can driving and being a drop-out be against the law?

Some of our students are drop-outs because they are working to support themselves, a child or their families. Taking the car away would just contribute to the downward spiral of poverty for families just barely keeping their heads above water.

This program also turns the school into cops - and believe me, they have enough to do to just control the in-school environments.

I'm not one for more government interference in our daily lives either. But I applaud Kentucky for trying to do something to keep kids in school. Those drop-outs have no idea how hard it is to get even an assistant manager's job without that diploma. Our kids often tell us that they were stupid to drop out and that even attending a self-paced alternative school like ours is harder than just doing it right the first time.

Interesting discussion.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

The one thing the (general) law tries to do is reduce the negative impact one person has on another. It doesn't matter if you have to drive to get to work whether you're insured or licensed or not. In this situation, if you negatively impact someone else via an accident or endanger others' lives with reckless driving, you should be held accountable for it. The lack of license & insurance is the law's way of telling you that you lack the accountability to be able to do what you want.

Driving is a priviledge regardless of your life situation because you have the ability to impact another individual's life very abruptly regardless of whether you meant to or not. Many people abuse the priviledge by endangering others while they drive (D.C. traffic is a prime example). If you're lucky enough to have gone from 15 years old to 18 years old without a license, insurance, or an accident, I would hope logic would tell you that it was just as smart for you to have stayed in school and passed your classes to begin with, outrageous life scenarios aside.

All of that said, I simply think this particular law has the intent that is obvious and in becoming law it merely opens the doors to the negative impacts described in this thread thus far -- not the other way around.

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

At our school, at an assembly today, our principal made it clear if we were truant or missed too much school, an administrator and a cop would show up at your door. ...

Re: Kentucky No Pass / No Drive Law
 

In total agreement with you there!
Nothing scares me more than "Blue hair behind the wheel in a work zone"
Speaking as someone who has been chased by little old ladies and men on the wrong side of the barrels, and hit by a few... I would welcome yearly testing of drivers over say... 60, or 70 years old.
I also agreen with those that think 16 or 17 year olds need to be closely monitored while they drive... but school performance should NOT be tied to this.