Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

Texas has quite an exciting history filled with wonderful adventurers, pioneers, and history makers.
Here is a link to some of the early time line -
http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm

Here is a link to information in Wikipedia regarding Texas history -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Texas

The history helps me understand that Texas is rich in cultural and political diversity. The richness is a large part of why Texas is the way it is and does what it does, sometimes creating controversy along the way.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

Are students forced to recite the Texas pledge, or do some just stand quietly? While at our school I do expect the students to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, I do not force them to repeat it. I would think if one's convictions are such that one is uncomfortable saying "under God" out loud, one can simply pause for breath at that time.
The idea of incorporating "God" into patriotism is not a novel thing in America - simply look north and listen to "O Canada" sometime.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

But what about atheists and agnostics? I would argue that atheism and agnosticism are a form of religious belief - just as mainstream Christianity/Judaism/Islam are. The words "under God" in the pledge of allegiance do not represent all religious beliefs equally. It respects only one form of religious belief - the ones which profess a belief in God - and no others.

With regards to how laws are made, the Declaration of Independence has no influence. It is not a legislative document - it's more like a mission statement. We must answer to the Constitution (the supreme authority on legislative matters) with regards to this issue.

What does it mean to "build a country under God"? Does it mean that religion should be legislated upon the people? The Constitution says "No". Does it mean that every citizen is entitled to practice the religion of their choice freely? The Constitution says "Yes"!

The belief in a higher power is absolutely NOT a prerequisite to acting "in a manner befitting of respect". I have seen both Atheists and Believers commit reprehensible and inappropriate acts; conversely, I have seen both Atheists and Believers act with dignity and leadership. The qualities which make someone a model citizen have nothing to do with religious belief - they have to do with one's ability to lead, think, empathize, and act responsibly.

I am not a member of the so-called "over-politically correct" crowd. I could care less if a person chooses to express their religious views publicly or otherwise. I have a problem only when such expressions are sanctioned by LEGISLATIVE actions. There is nothing wrong with a child writing a book report about The Bible in class. There is nothing wrong with Christmas trees in the mall, or a Menorah in a shop window. There is nothing wrong with letting people embrace their various religious beliefs in public, as long as it is not being mandated or funded by the Government.

As I have said before, by legislating that the words "under God" be included in the Pledge of Allegiance, the Government is recognizing an establishment of a particular religion (and is excluding other religious beliefs). Leaving the words "under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance is not suppressing anyone's right to free speech. There are plenty of other ways people can express their belief in God that are not written in legislation. It seems pretty silly to think that saying "under God" during the Pledge of Allegiance is the only way for a person to express that belief.

--Jaine

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

If students object to reciting the pledge, they can bring a written note from home, excusing them from participating. That is my understanding.

I had 2 children in 3 different high school environments. It varied depending on the school and within that, it varied depending on the teachers. My daughter had one teacher that would ask the students to stand and for the boys to remove their hats while saying the pledges. My son recited them every day.

I have no issue with this personally, and I don't tend to get involved in religious or political discussions. The reason is simple - I love living in the United States. It is not perfect by any means, but there is always the opportunity for change, for voters to make a difference, for future generations to make an impact - and there is always the opportunity to express an opinion appropriately or keep it to oneself. I respect that and I appreciate that freedom. :)

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Honestly, my teachers aren't "uptight" about it and you are free to recite if you wish, but you MUST still stand up and observe silence if you choose not to recite. But I do not know the official ruling of our district, this is just my experience so far.

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This implies that the parents have the right to veto their child's beliefs. When the child is willing and able to make a choice (subjectively right or wrong, as the case may be), this is hardly fair. Parents certainly have the right to influence their children, but there's no need for them to be the arbiters of their child's worldview—children must learn to think for themselves, and must be permitted to develop their own opinions.

Quite right that in Canada, we too have patriotic observances with religious themes. However, in my experience and to my knowledge, students are not compelled by regulation to sing O Canada. (For example, religious objectors regularly sit quietly when it is played.)

More importantly, the anthem is poetic and figurative (especially in its French version, which is often heard in unison with the English, even in English-speaking places) rather than a personal and specific declaration of allegiance. Canadians don't literally expect our hearts to glow as we see Canada rise—but Texans presumably do expect that their pledge should be followed literally, as written. That's why I don't really have a problem with O Canada—it's like the Christmas tree sitting harmlessly in the mall, symbolic and not prescriptive.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

This is part of an article I found when I googled Texas Pledge of Allegiance.
There was a little more that listed other states with pledges but I didn't see any sense in introducing them into this discussion.


Houston Chronicle
Aug. 2, 2007, 1:14PM
Students must remember ‘God’ in Texas pledge
By MELANIE MARKLEY

Texas students will have four more words to remember when they head back to class this month and begin reciting the state’s pledge of allegiance.

This year’s Legislature added the phrase “one state under God” to the pledge, which is part of a required morning ritual in Texas public schools along with the pledge to the U.S. flag and a moment of silence.

State Rep. Debbie Riddle, who sponsored the bill, said it had always bothered her that God was omitted in the state’s pledge.

“Personally, I felt like the Texas pledge had a big old hole in it, and it occurred to me, ‘You know what? We need to fix that,’ “ said Riddle, R-Tomball. “Our Texas pledge is perfectly OK like it is with the exception of acknowledging that just as we are one nation under God, we are one state under God as well.”

By law, students who object to saying the pledge or making the reference to God can bring a written note from home excusing them from participating.

But adding that phrase has drawn criticism from some who say it’s unnecessary and potentially harmful to children who don’t share the same religious beliefs. “Most Texans do not need to say this new version of the pledge in order to be either patriotic or religious,” said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. “This is the kind of politicking of religion that disturbs many Americans, including those who are deeply religious.”

The revised wording in the Texas pledge took effect on June 15, and the Texas Education Agency sent an e-mail reminding school districts about the change earlier this week.
(...)
Texas has had a pledge of allegiance since 1933. In 2003, the Legislature required all schools to pledge allegiance to the U.S. and Texas flags and observe a moment of silence every morning at the beginning of class.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

On one hand, we are free to change the laws if we disagree.

On the other hand, mentioning God is not promoting a religion. Not entirely atheistic, but still far short.

That being said, it's not something to get all to riled up about - unless that first hand is your goal. Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't - nobody really knows, or can claim to. The bible may be true, may be utter fiction, or may be somewhere in-between. I am not going to profess my faith* on anyone else unless they ask me to. Maybe not even then.

I was being serious up in that earlier post, but in hindsight it may be misconstrued as mocking. Let's just say I'm somewhat religious, leave it at that.

There is still plenty of room for science in there, too.

I just hope nobody is offended by an open discussion like this on a perhaps controversial topic. It's good to talk about these things, and to hear other viewpoints.

[/soapbox]

*and, after all, it is just a faith, not proven.

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Yeah, I know. I was pointing out the irony of the situation through sarcasm. It's kind of hard to detect sarcasm through text... :P

Yeah, it may seem unconstitutional, but no one is forcing you to say it, which is probably why it is still in there. What's odd why they put it in in the first place. Of course, the fact that you don't have to say the Pledge doesn't justify that phrase being in there, but, to me, it sort of makes it seem less unconstitutional.

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My question is... why does Texas and the other, unmentioned, states have their own pledge? I see it as a waste of 30 seconds... we don't need to say we love our country everyday. What about those that hate this country? Or disagree with its policies. Is it treason to not say the pledge based on those grounds?

I never recited it because I thought it was pointless, and besides, they only had us saying it until the 6th grade or so... I spent my time thinking about/doing the homework that was assigned the night before or going over problems in my head during this time. I'm not one to waste time reaffirming something.

I'm at a middle road on religious beliefs. I like to think there is a God (god) but I put more weight in science. I have to see it to believe it (wholly), to overstate a beaten horse cliche.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

That is exactly why these discussions pop up on CD - people can feel safe expressing their opinions without fear of being subjected to the immature actions found elsewhere on the Internet and world at large.
While these discussions are excessively off the topic of robots, I welcome them. They provide a diverse set of views from an intelligent, cohesive group of individuals. They also allow for CD members to express themselves beyond the one-dimensional world of FIRST Robotics. Thank (insert deity here) for CD Chit-Chat.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

Agreed, but in the big scheme of things, the belief in a higher power does tilt the balance towards justice and right. I am not saying that non-believers by definition are bad people as you have pointed out, I was merely referencing the founding fathers beliefs. Remember that no one outwardly expressed atheistic doctrine at the formation of this nation or for that matter well into the twentieth century. I disagree that the words "under God" is establishing a particular religion. It is so easy to point to the word "God" and conclude a Judeo/Christian/Islamic religion (about half of the world population believes in this same supreme being). In fact there are references to supreme beings in most established religions. And although Bhuddists do not have God as a central belief, there is a great emphasis on maintaining justice and repsect for the individual.

Jeremiah, to know a Texan is to love them. You don't ask "why", you just have to accept it.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

Those are the individuals, who I believe are more than free to leave the country that I love, adore, and would die for.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

I'm not sure a day goes by when my kids get vetoed on something by my wife or me.

Can we have ice cream tonight? no - you had it last night
Can I stay up another 15 minutes to watch this TV show? no - it's time for bed
Will you let me use the car tonight? no - you didn't take care of it last time, so you have lost that luxury
I don't want to go to church today. well, get dressed, 'cause you're going anyway

Veto, veto, veto... that is part of being a parent. The more important part is love, love, love. So, while we do veto often, we also understand, listen, ask questions and explain things along the way. It's our job and right to influence and guide our children until they are adults.

All parents are different, of course. However, when it comes to being able to influence or veto my child's beliefs, I do surely have the right to do so if I believe it is warranted.

As for the Texas Pledge of Allegiance, if one of my daughters came home and asked me to write a note to exclude them from saying "under God", I would ask many questions, and then not write the note. However... if I raised my family so that we did not believe in a god, then I surely would write the note.

Andy B.

Re: Pledge of Allegiance Changed...
 

In response to Jeremiah's question about why some states have pledges - in this case, the pledge and the flag go together:
http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/.../tx_pledge.htm

States have flags, birds, trees - symbols. Some of our states have pledges.
Think about this - companies have mission statements. If we read their mission statement, it gives us an understanding of who they are. Many teams develop mission statements as well.

A good place to ask many of these questions is in your American History classes.

(I do know how much Texans value and respect their Texas flag. We have carried Texas flags with us to Lone Star Regional and have given them as gifts. We've also taken them with us to Atlanta.)

P.S. It is always my hope that we are an inclusive society. We work together to resolve our differences, sometimes deciding mutually to agree to disagree. Our country has endured much in it's short life as a country. We still experience growing pains as a democracy. My grandmother's view of the United States began in the late 1800's and though she lived to her late 80's, she did not live to see the influence of the Internet or cell phones. She would have loved to know that we just experienced a teacher at work on Endeavour. It is important to look at where we've been in order to move forward sometimes. It is important to learn our history and use it to guide our future history that we create. It is important that we work together, learn together, improve society together - just like being on a team.