Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I don't want to upset people, or start a flame war here but I need some serious advice.

The team i mentor for has a hard limit of 30 students set by the school district, which we fill every year. Last year, all but two of the students are white. All but 4 of the students are girls. The teacher that coaches the team is under pressure from the school's adminisration to "diversify" the team to more inline with the district's demographic. There is preference given to people that participated with the team the previous year. The issue is that of the 6 students last year that were not white not male, 4 dropped out near the begining of the build season. Those 4 showed up to the recrutiment meeting at the begining of this school year and have been given spots on the team allongside last year's most dedicated students, while others who dropped out at the same time were denied a spot becasue they dropped out.

In a mentor meeting, when the coach was asked why some of last year's dropouts made the team, he said that he knew they dropped out and told us about his supervisor wanting diversity on the team.

This situation wouldn't even be an issue if we didnt have to make cuts, or if we were allowed to add students to the roster when others drop off, but the school district is strict about team rosters and wont let us. While our roster isnt set until the end of the week, our recruitment drive is long over and audtions are just about done. We did manage to recruit two new girls, but all new recruits were white.

I dont think anyone that dropped out during a previous build season should be allowed on the team. It bothers me to think that people are given preferential treatment for their race or gender, and it's not like the students haven't already noticed. I just dont really know what to do here... the whole situation just doesnt sit right with me... i dont think that it balences with FIRST principles either. Has anyone else been in a similar situation, or under similar pressure from administration? How did you cope?

Of course, whoever ends up on the roster has no effect on what any of us mentors will do for the team, only the amount of work that will have to be pickuped from dropouts who come in all shapes and colors. we'll roll with the punches in any case.

but please, advice?

p.s. i figure that if anyone on my team sees this post, they will recognize the team, but thats ok becasue they know the situation... i just dont want them to know it was me that posted this, for fear of being branded intolerant or racist or whatever.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

It sounds like this is an issue that is really bothering you. Here are a couple things you might try:

Ignore the diversity issue for just a moment, and look at the students that dropped out and came back on the team as people. Did they drop out because their work was hard? Did they drop out due to family issues? Maybe some of them didn't, but give them the benefit of the doubt and see where this season takes you.

If other students feel the same way, you might try to have a private meeting with the team leader to air your concerns, and to outline a plan for how to handle the situation in the future. If you would like to make it impossible to come back after dropping out (your team's judgment), write that into the constitution (if you have one). Make it clear that members who drop out can't come back, otherwise you're out of luck I think.

Finally, please take this to heart: this is clearly a sensitive issue. What we provide here are guidelines, possibilities from our own experiences that may help set you in the right direction. This call is yours' to make as a team, as a group of people with a common goal, not just as a bunch of people of different races and genders.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Honestly, I think the people that are wrong in this situation are the people who want to "diversify" the team just because it has mostly white males. Big deal. Race and Gender should have no place in demographics, and giving preferential treatment for minorities is racist and unfair. A person should be admitted to the team based on seniority, skill, or just a random drawing from a hat or something.

Now, I can understand WHY people would give preferential treatment towards females/non-whites, but it's a nonsense reason. It's as if people are trying to compensate for former inequalities. Rather than compensating, they should completely level the playing field. For instance, if a white male needs 100pts to pass a test, everybody, regardless of gender or race should need 100pts to pass the same test. A person is no less or no more based on their gender or the color of their skin. This should be especially true in FIRST.

-Otaku

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Your 30 person limit seems ridiculous. You should certainly be allowed to replace people who drop out. How hard have you tried to talk your school district out of it? Have they given you any reasons why? Perhaps you should propose a "travel team" that is limited to 30 people and allow anyone who wants to help build the robot. That way, the travel team could be determined after the build season and after you have determined everyone's commitment levels.
To actually answer your question, encouraging diversity on your team seems like a reasonable goal. Doing so by admitting students who have already proven to be unreliable is not a good way to do so. These particular students won't make your team more diverse if they don't show up.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

In this case, there really isn't that much you can do. A school district probably isn't going to bend on an issue like that.

Also, I can't entirely tell from what you said, but only 4 students were given the spots "unfairly". It's probably just better to hold your tongue and let it be; If his supervisor is making this decision, it's not worth risking support for the team over 4 kids.

Just worry about the other 26, and try to keep your teams politics off of CD (I'm sure all teams have it anyway), it really doesn't help, and mainly has potential to make your own team look bad.

EDIT: argh... I'm tired, I got sidetracked in my post and left this out from after the first paragraph (thx for reminding me Dave);

The only idea I have would be to get any student who was denied access complain. Even then, I doubt the school will budge. Both high schools I attended made similar rulings on unrelated (as in, NOT our robotics team) clubs.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

To me it sounds like its edging up on reverse discrimination. If "student A" feels his spot on the team has been taken by "student B" who is less deserving/qualified, on the sole basis of race, "student A" should have his/her parents contact the school.

I believe it is improper to offer certain types of people more/greater/special opportunities over others for the reason of there being less of them in the general population.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I agree with you 100%. I feel that it should be based on who are the best 30 people for that team and not who do you need to pick to have a "diversified" team. If you have significantly more than 30 people applying maybe you could look at starting a new team.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Diversity is something the 'real world' is working with in the 2000's, trying to find that balance.

Last week, I was at a staff retreat and a part of it had to do with creating a diversity mission statement for a made up corporation, non-profit, or business of our choice and then marketing it as such.

I've been attending workshops and meetings regarding the topic of diversity for a while now. Many universities have diversity statements.
Innovation, mutual respect, communication, future leadership are just a few examples of the goal/mission. Reason being - historically, there have been excluded populations in regard to recruitment, retention, and talent in many fields of education.

It sounds like your team is having to work within the constraints of the school's expectations/mission. I don't know if you have done this but you might think about talking to the team regarding developing a mission statement and a diversity statement. If you have a handbook with your rules/guidelines/recruitment policy stated clearly in it - then you can address change if you feel it is needed with the powers that be. The more organized/prepared your team is with a business plan and one of organization, the better you can represent it. For example, I have sat on interview committees. The candidates haven't always fit into all the boxes that one should ideally be able to check off regarding diversity, experience, skill sets. Because of the background/research that we've done, the homework we've done backing up the ability to justify why a candidate would be a good fit, we have been able to hire excellent candidates that we otherwise might have missed out on.

If someone outside the team is setting the restrictions such as team size, etc. then it is up to the team to best handle the restrictions and guidelines by being as professional and organized as possible with a well developed organizational/business plan. When that is in place, then the team can develop a plan of action to present - dealing with the problems that arise such as empty spots due to members dropping out.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

[quote=anonymousrobot;640316]I don't want to upset people, or start a flame war here but I need some serious advice.


I’m going to go in a different direction. I’m someone who values diversity and inclusion so I’m really sorry they were handled in this way. Most FIRST-folk know that innovation and engineering require new and creative thinking. A diverse team may also have a diversity of ideas to choose from. Ideas are a valuable team resource, just like a really well-equipped machine shop.

A different, but harder way to increase diversity is by outreach to those under-represented communities- presentations and robot demos at local community centers, middle schools, Girl Scout troops, etc. Another great way is to help start “farm teams” of FLL, FTC, or JFLL. It’s a long term strategy that might impress the administrators and lead to greater diversity in a few years.

In the short term, someone else mentioned “travel team” vs. “build team.” If it’s too late for this year, it’s definitely worth thinking about for the future.

Whether or not you agree with me, this is a tough situation for everyone. It’s a great opportunity to show your school and team "generosity" and “gracious professionalism.” It may not be easy, but somebody has to lead the way.

I'm not justifying rules that may have been bent or broken. That seems to be a "done deal" at this point. I'm saying it's a chance to make a tough situation better.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Diversity is a key factor in the advancement of any society, and the FIRST community is no exception. Many great ideas have formed when a group of people with different interests and backgrounds have come together to work on a project.

In my own opinion, the best--and most fair-- way in deciding who should be allowed on the limited-number team should be as follows: (and some of these have already been suggested by others in this thread)
1. Make an application that all members have to fill out, listing their goals for the team, skills, and what they hope to gain from the team, etc. Have a list of criteria that each member must have. (i.e. no failing grades, no continuous disciplinary problems, etc.)
2. Post flyers, make announcements, and hold meetings in all the schools that are able to participate in the FIRST program in your district to spread the word as much as possible about the team.
3. At these meetings, discuss FIRST, its objective, and what your team hopes to get out of being a part of FIRST.
4. Make known to all that it is a first come-first serve kind of deal; Those who put in the application and come to a specified number of meetings will be given higher priorty than those who do not


I understand that this first come-first serve thing will definitely have drawbacks (for example, what happens if a three year member comes back for a fourth year and all the spaces are taken up already?) Your team should stress the fact that the students need to act in a timely-manner in order to get an assured spot on the team.

I also think you should make a proposal to your school board--getting them to change the number of students allowed on the team is unlikely, but you could ask them to change the rule about replacing those who have dropped out. Otherwise, other kids are missing out on a great experience.

These are just my ideas; they might work, they might not. But I wish your team all the best with finding a good solution that will benefit the students' best interests.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

It's a shame that the students' best interests sometimes has to come at the expense of an individual student's best interests, but that's life. There have been some very good suggestions here, and I particularly like the idea of starting another team if the current one is full.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

My ex-team (i graduated) was about 25% Jewish (I contributed)
We also had 4 Girls
Our team was about 28 people
The school said, "more diversity", but as much as we tried, it was really hard to get other minorities or Females, it's really an interest thing...all you can do is open up and try to create a really friendly atmosphere, that will get more members (it did for 753)

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Many school boards (and other governing bodies) will issue directives like this because of past experiances with others that would not invite students / teammembers fairly (not nessicarily {SP?} the robotics team). Sometimes, in an effort to do the right thing (diversity), rules are put in place that, when implemented, do more harm than good.

Discrimination of any type is wrong. I would ask to meet with this supivisor, and ask him for the reasoning and motivation behind the rule. I can almost bet you that the issue is far more complicated than just your teams roster.

In the end, you will have to accept their decisions. However, making an effort to find the reasoning behind their decisions (tactfully) will show that you care about what is happening and you are reasonable in your actions.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

To those who do not care about ethenic diversity, it's obvious they won't because it won't effect them either way whether there is change or not. But it's a big deal to someone like me. So much so that my main focus of doing FLL is to increase minority involment in FIRST by hopefully inspiring them to stay with the program and move on to FRC, them to college and then to a productive career. I don't care if they become an X-Cat, a Sparx or a member of some team in another city, so long as they are involved.
One of the things I am most proud about on our team is our ethnic and gender makeup. We're probably one of the most diverse teams in FIRST. On the same token we don't exactly echo the makeup of our school (which is 65% black) so much so that someone actually thought Wilson Magnet was a suburban school.
Most of our team is IB kids and they probably would go to college with or without FIRST. Wilson Magnet has a 51% graduation rate. That means 49% of the kids don't make it for some reason or another (and Wilson Magnet is considered a very good school. Rated something like 166 is the country. Down from 24) and I don't know if participation in FIRST would or would not help them ( there is no one size fits all soloution in a society of individuals. Even FIRST can't be everything to everyone )but it's the possiblity of it helping that makes it worth the try to get them in. Unfortunately those kids want nothing to do with us and we really have no idea to get them in (we can't drag them out of the hall to the site and brainwash them into FIRST freaks). We can only hope.
The reason why we need to get to kids like these is because we don't want them to be dependent on goverment services to survive, thus draining resources that could have been used elsewhere when I think it would be better to get them to become a more productive citizen that contributes to our country's growth. That is what this program is ultimately about. To get you to realize the hidden potential within.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

As a white male, I'm sure my perspective here is limited, but I'll throw my two cents in all the same.

Ethnic and gender diversity is important in FIRST, as it is in any organization, school, or city. If people get used to the idea of only one kind of person, it's that much harder to accept different people later in life.

However, forcing diversity is just counter-productive. Those kids who lost their opportunities because someone "more diverse" was favored will resent the lost opportunity and maybe even the minority group. By the same token, all the kids on the team who see these "diverse" individuals get a freebie and then don't take it (by dropping out, not participating) will resent those team members, and may resent that minority group. We don't need girls, blacks, Hispanics, Jews, or Asians (or anyone else for that matter) to get the reputation of being quitters just because if they had been white and male and a quitter they wouldn't have made it on the team.

It's a tough spot, but I here's the solution I propose. It's building somewhat one Koko Ed's post. Don't support diversity by excluding people or by favoring people who don't care about your team or about robotics. Support diversity by reaching out to the communities you wish to attract. Start young with girlscouts to attract girls. If "diverse" in your district is a nice way to say "low-income" (I certainly hope it isn't), reach out to programs that cater to young people in low-income families.

In the end, FIRST is about inspiring and educating. I don't think it matters what one's color, sex, or creed is to be inspired, but society has deemed that it does matter, one way or another. Most minorities are underrepresented in technology industries and in institutes of higher learning. Inequality is a construct of our own fear and prejudice, both on the part of the majority groups and the minority groups. Only when minority and majority groups can agree on their own equality and similarity can we truly put all of this to rest.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

This is the most important thing said in this thread. It goes along with my feelings on "No Child Left Behind" - too often it becomes "Don't let anyone get too far ahead". Don't take away opportunities from someone because another person is disadvantaged. Rather, seek to extend the opportunties to all.

In an environment with limited resources - only so many openings in a freshman college class, only 1 or 2 job openings, only 30 spots available on a FIRST team - it becomes a challenge to serve all who want to come. Work to create more opportunities, not to restrict.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I'm a minority so this issue would effect me personally. I don't like this ethinc/gender quota your team has to abide by because [culturally as well as other factors] different people work different ways. Somebody might draw a picture, somebody might mumble some works, or somebody might tap their foot. Everybody has a unique way of thinking and when you pick and choose with a quota you may be weeding out the best thinkers [whatever race/gender they may be].

You pick the best person for the job whether they are black, white, asian, hispanic, female, or male; NOT so you 'look good' when they publish your team picture in the school paper, but because they can get the job done right, on time, with a passion.

Pavan.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

It is often difficult to discern whether an affirmative action program is intended to make a group look good, or whether it's intended to address issues with causative links to race, ethnicity, culture or other such things. Indeed, it's probably a bit of both.

There is a limited place for picking someone who isn't necessarily the best for the job, because there's a reasonable probability that their experience will lead to improvement in the underprivileged group that they represent. But I agree, picking minorities simply to embellish photo-ops is unacceptable.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I really don't understand why everyone likes to advertise how diverse their team/company/organization/etc. is.
My personal belief is that a team should be open to anyone who wants to join and put in the necessary effort, period. Race, religion, favorite ice cream topping, etc. should never be discussed in relation to admissions.

I believe that the best admission system is one in which the applicant has any personally identifying information on their application run through a hashing algorythm and talks through a mediator to the evaluator. Thus, the evaluator cannot be biased towards or against the applicant regarding their race, religion, etc.

Back on topic, let's take the following example:
Let's pretend a population is 25% Hispanic, 25% black, and 50% white. If EVERYONE is on the robotics team, then the team will be 25% Hispanic, 25% black, and 50% white.
Does this mean that the team is not diverse?
Of course not, but it looks that way on paper.

What happens if you kick out half of the white team members? Then the team is 33% Hispanic, 33% black, and 34% white. Does this mean that the team is more diverse?

When someone says that their team is made up of X% minority students, it really doesn't say anything. Is their team diverse because the population in the general area is diverse? Is it because they have a quota system (ruled unconstitutional for college admissions because it actively discriminates against majority students)? Is it because they simply don't give recruiting presentations to majority students and concentrate on the minorities? Is it because the majority students at the school aren't interested in robotics and the minority students are?

The truth is that there's no way to know why a team is diverse unless you launch a reasonably intrusive, impractical, probably expensive, and tedious investigation to determine the actual cause.

Denying people a chance to be on the team because it makes your diversity figures bad is pretty close to actively recruiting minority students over majority students. In both cases, you're trying to influence who will join, not because of their skill or merit, but because of their race, religion, etc. And I haven't seen a single argument that will make me believe that favoring a demographic of people (minority OR majority) is a good thing.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Have you considered or discussed why they dropped quickly?

Wetzel

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

One of the missunderstaning about or diversifyijng affirmative action is that standards or performance expectations have to be lowered. If an organization is trying to attact more people and applicants are not qualified, the organization expands their search area. e.g. If my community is 95% male Anglos, to increase the female applicants, we would not lowere the standards to qualify the few females in the community, but rather recruit outside our nieghborhood for qualified females.

In a school setting, where are there a lot of minorities or females. (calculus class? Tennis team? MECHA club?) Talk to their leaders and find out what aspect of the robot club would especially appeal to them and adjust your recruiting to appeal to that group. New members should be admitted because they are fully qualified.

Another aspect is to honestly evaluate your club behaviors and be especially sensitive to unintended discrimination. It happens all the time and no one really notices it, but some groups feel there is a subtle message that they do not really belong. It's difficult to identify (hopfully) but it is important to try.

Team 842 is mostly minorities and about 50% female. We are always amazed at the stupid things we do without meaning to make someone feel uncomfortable. Our "Leave the Boys at home" experiment last year really opened our eyes to the subtle and almost constant message girls receive every day. As a result we make sure prospective girls are encouraged to work on electrical, mechanical, and driving positions, not just scrapbook, buttons, fund raising and "gofor" positions.

Anyway, don't insult anyone by lowering your standards, rather increase the recruiting pool. Find the highly qualified females and minorities and recruit them. It may take a few years before there is any really significant gains because you are really "changing the culture", not filling a quota.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

While minority issue hasn't come to my ex highschool yet Im not sure what the team would do if it did. There are maybe 12 to18 minority students in the entire school. we could certainly use more female involvement but the minorities just aren't there to join in the first place. Most of the county is in the same situation (were the only robotics team in the county since
1464's existance in the 2008 season is questionable at the moment). It just isnt practical for anyone involved for such a mandate to come from the school board that applies to any sort of team so i dont see it being an issue in the future. Our doors are open but no one is in line.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I Figure I might as well add my 2 cents in this conversation to compliment what Ed has mentioned earlier. Diversity is just another term to promote a non-stagnant culture. It does not necessarily mean purely gender or race either.

I know Xerox is one of the most diversified companies out there and to that end is one of our strengths due to the many new creative ideas brought from all parts of the world. So in brining this to our team it's one of our strengths. Sure we'd love to match the makeup of our school but it's hard to add specific aspects if you can't get any applicants in that area. Another way we focus on in our team is to make sure that students are balanced from Freshmen to senior year as well. (that helps balance th egraduating class each year to make recruting more consistent.)

The key is to provide the opportunity to those you are lacking in. That's all you can do. If they don't jump on board there's nothing wrong with filling it up with whomever applied. You just have to make that extra effort to diversify but don't blind yourself to the concept. Our team make up is pretty unique but as Ed mentioned before the Rochester City School District only has a 51% graduating to college percentage and typically 95% of all our students from the last 15 years have all gone to college. Believe me we're not specifically here for the straight A students. It's the ones who aren't motivated enough to even go to class that we try to enlist to partner up with the straight A students we do have.

For those who complain about minority benefits, I can assure you as an asian minority growing up in NYC. I didn't get any benefits in my lifetime yet, so don't throw that "minority" term around loosely since it is not all encompassing.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Ok you all dragged me in. While it is difficult to sometimes see what you might be doing to some else. It is always a great experiment to try an imaging placing yourself in their shoes. Sometimes district policies seem like they make no sense or at least they seem to be going about trying to solve the perceived situation the wrong way. Open dialog between the two parties, the team and the district, open means both sides are willing to look at the other side's point of view can usually result in a compromise that will benefit both parties.
Another way to take this situation is to turn your situation into a challenge to show how your team can over come these issues with gracious professionalism. A story comes to mind. Most of you won't know who I am talking about but the story still makes a point.
A famous marathon runner by the name of Bill Rodgers was asked once what he thought of racing and how he mentally was able to stay on top for so long. (He won 4 Boston and 4 New York Marathons, a feat no one else has done) His answer was that is was hard when he would go to races and see that there was no competition. He knew that he would win the race, but he would not be at all excited about it. He then said that when he did see people that were great runners and a threat to him that he felt excited. When asked if he got nervous or scared that he would loose, he answered no. When asked why, he said that he looked at it like this. If no one else should up that could beat me the race would be mediocre and just another race, however if some showed up that could beat me then I was looking forward to setting a world record! Its all in his attitude to make the situation work for him. So I guess my advise would be, make the situation work for you not against you.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Well said.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

This is an interesting thread. These topics can be difficult to talk about, but it's one that's interesting and important to me. I think diversity is very important, for multiple reasons.

First, with respect to being competitive, having a diverse team has many benefits. This isn't just in terms of FRC, but also in engineering and business in general. It's easy to fall into the thinking of the "best" (by whatever measure you can imagine) people should be on the team. The thing is, you'd be surprised how much diversity impacts the problem solving process. When you have people of many different backgrounds try to solve a problem, different people with different backgrounds bring different thought processes to a situation. This leads to some great ideas during brainstorming that may not happen with a group of people that all think alike. It really is a competitive advantage to be diverse - especially in the real world.

The second aspect is social responsibility. To many people, they don't understand how to get from their lot in life to somewhere else because they don't have the example of how to do it. I have a great personal example. I became an airline pilot. For me, that was something that "other people" did. I didn't think it was something that just anyone could do - you had to join the military, know someone, have some type of connection, or whatever. Then I knew someone that did it. I found out that it wasn't beyond the scope of possibility. More importantly, I found out from this person exactly how to do it - what I needed to do to make it happen. I followed their example and did it myself. I would have NEVER thought it was really possible without having that example path to follow. As mentors in FIRST, we owe it to the kids who think that becoming a successful professional is something that "other people do" to show them exactly how to get there.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

For those of you not diligent about checking dates, keep in mind this thread is from 2007.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Just so everyone is aware, this thread is from 2007.

Edit: Not to minimize any discussion, see Lil' Lavery's post below.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Oh, in that case diversity is no longer important.

Sorry for the sarcasm.

In all seriousness - I don't care about the date. The topic is still a big deal in my mind.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

While I can only speak to mine, I don't believe either comment regarding the date was intended to shut down the discussion. It was simply attempting to make people aware that the OP's specific problem has likely evolved significantly in the past six years, and directly responding to the OP's scenario is both unlikely to be seen by the OP and quite possibly no longer relevant to the OP.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

I understand - it was necromanced so I found it a good opportunity to bring up a point.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

Diversity should not come at the cost of showcasing excellent and proper work. Ever.

Re: Ethnic and Gender diversity in FIRST
 

To emphasize your point. This thread's last comment before today was from the first month I was in high school. I have since graduated from a 4.5 year university.

If this conversation continues (which I do not discourage), it might be a good idea to start a new thread and allow the conversation to start fresh.