On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

... I wanted to bring this up this up one final time since it is now set in stone. Also FIRST dropped IFI for VEX and they have announced a completely new system for the 2009 season. What's next, a 51+% chunk of pie in FIRST Sponsorship? Microsoft has begun its takeover of robotics. Thoughts? Concerns? Comments? Questions? ...

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

In no way will they take over FIRST. They're sponsoring a regional, and have sponsored teams for some time.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I forgot to link the controls systems to it. I call it "Microsoft's Proved Formula for Global Domination" :D

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

In terms of the controls system, FIRST will go with whatever the best option is..... and quite frankly, I won't be upset with that no matter who makes it.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

They're just like any other company. What’s wrong with them giving money to FIRST? The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has given money to all manner of charities and organizations.

Like other companies, Microsoft has probably realized that by sponsoring FIRST it will help to inspire some of its future employees and innovators.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

No, Microsoft is not just like any other company. In their recent high-profile lawsuits they adamantly lied about matters of technical fact; and the company is extremely predatory and agressively attempts to monopolize nearly every major market domain they enter.

Additionally, rather than adhering to a strategy that emphasizes greater compatibility among software products, along with being the best at building those products; they consistently attempt to either either replace or subvert consensus-based and/or de facto design "standards" that exist in those markets.

They have been very successful at carrying out these strategies, and have made a lot of money for their shareholders. So, in the sense of being in business for a profit, "Yes, they are like other for-profit, capitalist businesses." In other very important senses, they are not like all other businesses.

A organization like FIRST, needs to be extremely cautious about accepting too much help from any one donor, or from any donor that has a vested interest in something other than "agnosticly" inspiring students to explore ALL science and technology avenues. If FIRST isn't careful they might wind up becoming a mouthpiece for one sponsor's corporate strategies.

In FRC FIRST, I assert that offering/using a mixture of diverse technologies is a good thing. At every step in the design, construction/programming, testing, and operation of the FRC machines, I favor having several "technical" options for teams to choose among. I worry that if Microsoft or any similar company's influence grows too large, those options might become inappropriately narrowed (see above).

Blake
PS: Everyone should be careful to separate their opinion of the B & M Gates Foundation from their opinion of the Microsoft corporation. I also recommend that everyone should ponder the old adage about the apple not falling far from the tree.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I say we not get into the discussion of bill gates and microsoft trying to take over the world, this is about as touchy as wal mart.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I really dont thing that it ill do any harm.
Blake mentioned beeing carefull of having one too big sponser. What abaut NASA and GM, they have far more support to FIRST than MICROSOFT currently has.
Its a great thing that they now support a full regional, and we should be happy about it instead of complaining. Microsoft can give FIRST far more than FIRST will ever give Microsoft.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

And there are other FRC regionals that explicitly have a corporate moniker or two in their names (BAE, GM), so the "Microsoft Seattle Regional" is hardly breaking new ground. But... the adage Reagan made famous is worth remembering: "Trust, but verify".

I doubt BAE or GM recently announced any robotics products like MSRS or have an interest in seeing robotics products like MSRS take root in students' habits. So, I am rather complacent about seeing them listed as big sponsors. I tend to think they are investing on the entire economy and in future (post-college) good will.

On the other hand, with the recent announcement of MSRS, I wonder a bit if Microsoft polishing its corporate image, is simply doing a good thing by inspiring students, is starting a stealth marketing campaign, or all of the above? Is GM? Is BAE? Is Autodesk? Tough call to make. Let's watch actions and not marketing announcements. Let's also keep FIRST HQ informed about our desires (an assumption that I make) for staying properly aloof from any and all sponsorships that might create too much entanglement.

For FIRST FRC, at least, I would love to have MSRS, Intellitek,s C18, and homebrew Java (or FORTRAN, or FORTH or whatever) all be ways that I am allowed to program either next generation Parallax CPUs, SPARC CPUs, Intel/AMD CPUs or Terks, that are running BSD variants, Linux variants, OS X, Vista, or VxWorks OS's. Etc.

Currently though, my ears (and those of many of us) properly perk up when I hear about signs of an 800 pound gorilla visiting my neighborhood. I do not want to open an FRC KOP and rulebook, and find out that MSRS, Intel, and Vista are the only tools I get to use for my computing. Fool me once (in other markets) shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Blake
PS: On the other hand, I'm not too thrilled about the limitations of the Parallax PICs and C18/EasyC that we (FRC & FTC) are limited to using now; but at least I am comforted by knowing that the students who master them should be able to confidently move on to tackle other tough problems; and that they are very unlikely to myopically develop a sense that the Parallax/Intellitek/C way to do things, is the only way to do them.

Instead, as they move through life they are almost guaranteed to come to view the Parallax/Intellitek combo as one of the many, many diverse ways they learned to skin the proverbial cat. That broadening of one's horizons is one of the good things about staying a little bit outside the herd, no matter how seductive the herd's "benefits" might appear. In many ways, doing that teaches students to be a "developer" rather than a "user".

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Microsoft has two choices regarding that regional.

a) They can support it and be accused of trying to take over the world.

b) They can not support it and be accused of not supporting their community and education and not having 'social responsibility'.

Either way in the eyes of people that don't like Microsoft, they lose.

Microsoft is a large successful company. But they are definitely not all-knowing, all-controlling. Their list of technical and business failures is a long as their successes. There are a lot of vertical markets that MS doesn't dominate or are not even really competitive in.

As a general rule, large companies should support FIRST and/or teams in their corporate shadow. For example, automotive companies give support in the upper midwest. Here in Atlanta, The Coca Cola Company provides substantial support to FIRST in it's shadow here. If Coca Cola was a little more east the Championship would literally be in the shadow of the Coca Cola headquarters. Some companies only support 'plant shadows'. 3M is an example.

Microsoft has too many challenges to solve in their business in order to maintain sustainability. Trying to take over FIRST isn't one of them. FIRST is their 'social responsibility' charity effort.

I agree with the previous poster that this topic is best left alone given the emotionally charged environment surrounding it. And no, I'm not a Microsoft hack. I write linux application code for a living.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I still think the same thing - if Microsoft is developing a controller system and it gets used in 2009, good. FIRST wants to hit the mainstream in a big way, teaming up with one of the biggest tech companies in the world seems like a great way to do it. I love it how everyone is freaking out that they're sponsoring a robotics regional now. This is a GOOD thing that FIRST has gained the interest of Microsoft. And with as much Microsoft hate as there is in FIRST, I don't foresee them having any sort of monopoly within FIRST anytime soon. Unless we use a system made by them in 2009, but then where were the people crying out about IFI?

I'm sick of the Microsoft hate here, this is a good thing regardless of how you try and spin it.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I love IFI and I love their products (use them outside of FIRST extensively); but I find it hard to believe that the great minds in FIRST would even consider dumping IFI's system for something that isn't far superior. So, if FIRST switches to microsoft's controls system, it will be a better solution. Currently, I find it hard to imagine a better solution from Microsoft (as they don't have much in that market), but FIRST wouldn't change to Microsoft if they didn't.


Also, risking making myself look like a fool here.... but, is it even confirmed that Microsoft is doing it? I thought we had to wait until 2008 for real confirmation.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

EB,

You present a false dichotomy. There are third, fourth and more options.

You also appear to view this discussion through a take-over-the-world lens.

I prefer to view it through a what-does-the-past-teach-us-to-expect-from-the-future lens; and a diversity-is-good lens.

I also don't think that I described or implied anything that Microsoft-the-corporation might offer, encourage, or strive to accomplish; that would be at odds with their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders; or would be inconsistent with the business models/patterns the company has consistently relied upon to produce their successes.

I further don't think that, simply because a topic is emotionally charged, we should remove it from the discussions occuring here. Isn't teaching, by example, how to objectively dissect an emotionally charged subject, and how to then use clear, cogent, well-formed arguments to discuss/debate it, with respect for differing opinions; something mentors (and everyone involved) should do?

Honing one's ability to successfuly navigate a discussion of an emotionally charged topic would seem to be as important to one's career as just about any other social skill we attempt to teach/nurture in those FIRST inspires. Are we unable to teach that part of being a well-rounded scientist/technologist well?

Finally, I'm no expert on corporate law, but I believe that almost all US, for-profit companies, large and small, are obligated by US law to obey the instructions of their shareholders. Those instructions are generally to maximize the return on the shareholders' investment in the company. Sometimes that leads to support of organizations like FIRST; and I am happy when it does. However, for the reason in the next paragraph, I also think that it usually leads to attempting to take over "the world".

How many shareholders (who are investing to increase their capital or income) do you know who would not want to see their current investment result in them owning a slice of everything worth owning in the entire world?

In the US' predominantly-capitalistic, economy, it is not a business sin to want to control the world. It is a duty. In my opinion this is what makes debating whether or not "Company XYZ wants to control the world." a waste of time. The answer is rarely in doubt.

So, lets not avoid that discussion. Instead let's finish it and make it irrelevant. It will then be interesting/enlightening to look around and see what is left to discuss. At that point we might find we have a clearer view of the important topics from which the phantom debate (about taking over the world) distracted us.

Blake

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Interesting thread.

I would like to hear three GOOD reasons why MS would even think about entering the robotic controller market for FIRST. They would need a good business case and I don't think it is there. FIRST is just too tiny a market and doesn't have money flowing TOWARD Microsoft, relative to their cost stucture.

Relatively speaking, the FIRST controller market is tiny relative to their other product lines. It would be a distraction to their management and engineering teams that frankly have a lot bigger fish to fry. It would almost certainly be cash negative for a long time.

The type of electronics that FIRST uses is best developed by a team of 3 or 4 people with a passion for entrepreneurship. That is why companies like IFI and AndyMark do such a good job with FIRST. If these companies had to ship 100 million units a year they would in fact be large and cumbersome. In other words like Microsoft.

Sometimes people attribute evil to companies when in fact it is just 50,000 employees tripping over themselves. Self inflicted incompetance.

20 years ago the evil empire was IBM. For a while people thought the good side was Digital Equipment but then they became TOO successful. And HP was an IBM wanna be. Bill Gates came along as the underdog. None of the young people reading this post perceive IBM as 'evil' I'd bet. In 20 years the same will be said of Microsoft.

Nearly every project that I worked on where we recommended IBM, DEC, or HP, there was someone that furiously argued for MS products for blah blah blah reasons. MS wasn't the best for those projects. It is just that the person wanted the underdog to win, and the market leader to lose for no good technical reason.

Basically it is 'king of the hill'. Whoever is on the hill becomes the target.

As I write this I'm watching Notre Dame and Michigan bite the dust.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Ryan,

Answer me this. Do you think that Microsoft the corporation wants anything less than for the MSRS product and its offspring to be a product used by every robot, every robot manufacturer, and every roboticist in the entire world?

If you do, buy some Microsoft stock, and then successfully sue them for a breach of their fiduciary duty.

It is their duty to attempt to dominate any market they attempt to enter. Asserting that Pavan's comment is motivated by "Microsoft hate" might be something of an insult. You should tread lightly there. An alternative interpretation of Pavan's statement is that Pavan does understand how businesses make profits, and that he thinks that Microsoft's entry into the robotics market is one of their significant business thrusts, not just a boutique, research endeavor.

If it is one of their important business thrusts, then I suggest that any organization that has robotics at the core of its existence would be foolish not to view how their own organization might be affected by the entry of an enormously large, influential and wealthy corporation like Microsoft, into that market.

You said you are "sick of the Microsoft hate here". If there is unfounded "hate", or even mild dislike, here, then I applaud your being sick of it. However, you didn't say that anyone in the discussion has made a false assertion or drawn a false conclusion from an assertion. Please point out where you see the holes in the thread's arguments, along with expressing your feelings, so that we can see if we agree or disagree with you.

Blake
PS: In reply to your question about "people crying out about IFI"; in this very thread the current FIRST FRC/FTC monopoly held by Intellitek/IFI was pointed out as an example of something to try to avoid. I did it in my PS here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...56&postcount=9

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

1) FIRST has cachet. FIRST + MSRS is a bounty of good marketing material waiting to be harvested inexpensively.

2) Microsoft isn't going after the market you appear to have in mind. They are going after the ubiquitous-computing, home-full-of-robots market (see the unusual Bill Gates article Scientific American chose to publish a few months back). That market doesn't exist yet, but I would tend to believe that the future innovators in the FIRST and other pipelines today, are good ones to target if you want to influence the form that future, very-large, robotics market takes when/if it does begin to bear fruit.

3) Microsoft has deep pockets and sees MSRS as a long-term investment in the shape of the future (see point number 2), not one that will contribute much if anything to the next few quarters' financial statements. Viewed in that way, inserting MSRS into programs like FIRST that train the future roboticists would be a smart investment that will pay off in the expected time frame.

About my third item above. The investment would be a smart one for Microsoft to make; but, there are two sides to that hypothetical transaction. I'm pretty sure that for any "agnostic" science and technology program like FIRST, becoming too entangled with any single technology, company or product isn't a wise thing to do. I hope I clearly explained those opinions in earlier posts.

So that we can focus where I think we should focus, I hope that, based on the discussion so far, we are willing to agree that

• Having an FRC regional named the Microsoft Seattle Regional is harmless in itself.
• Having a new FRC regional bear the Microsoft name, makes good conspiracy fodder when added to the recent introduction of MSRS, and to the recent mysterious FIRST announcement about FTC probably not using Vex products next year.

Blake

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

They are a business, so I'm sure they would be quite tickled with a large majority of people using their products.

It's not an insult, it's just a fact. There are a great number of Linux, Apple, etc. users on this forum. Some people on ChiefDelphi despise Microsoft and are vocal about it, there's no hiding or denying that. Whether Pavan does or doesn't is not for me to judge. His thought about it being a significant business venture by Microsoft is just that, his own thought. I think that FIRST would be a great wide spread testing ground for something like this, as there are over a thousand teams.

I wasn't really concerned with the rumor of a Microsoft product being used, but rather their sponsorship of the regional event. Microsoft has put forward a lot of money to get their name in the title of the regional. This is huge in my opinion. But what if one of their representatives came here to Chief Delphi and saw Pavan's comment? It's somewhat rude and risky to be posting things like that out in the open about very large sponsors. Out of respect for the company, as with all companies that sponsor FIRST, I would not go out of my way to publicly question the money they've invested in this program.

I think talking about Microsoft taking over FIRST is the hole in the argument. They're sponsoring one regional and people assume they're going to dominate the entire organization instead of applauding their sponsorship. I'd even go so far as to say "thank you Microsoft for supporting FIRST."

I think it's hard to lump VEX into this equation. VEX is a kit that you buy. That's it. There aren't nearly as many options as with FRC (i.e. AndyMark and other suppliers). Sure, IFI had a monopoly on the controllers. But it would be a nightmare if people had options between multiple systems, all with their own headaches and breakdowns. It's simply not a viable option, all teams are going to have to be given the same 'kit of parts' to be on a level playing field.

My hands are cramping, but I hope I've made somewhat of a valid argument. In summary: I don't want Microsoft to come strolling into this thread and be offended by the very people they're supporting.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

People take this thing way to far.

Just because Microsoft is joining FIRST doesn't mean in any way that they want to take it over. Honestly if you think that they would / could then every major corporation that is driven by profit, that had/has anything to do with FIRST would want to take it over.

And Honestly, we are the customers. If Microsoft does try anything, we are the ones that can react and do soemthing about that. But until then, put the claws away and see how things go.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I for one, do not like Microsoft. From day one they have copied others to build and inferior product. They continually put bad products on the market and expect the purchasers to trouble shoot and then charge them for the improvements. Microsoft's software is more prone to crashes than any other software that I know of. I really don't want controllers driving 140+ lb robots with software that is known to be problematic.

That said, if Microsoft is only sponsoring regionals and teams and does not have any major products involved that all teams must use, then I think that is a good thing. Money is hard to come by and unless it is against FIRST'S ideal then I have no issue with it.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Microsoft has pretty thick skin. It is a given that they take a certain level of abuse as do all businesses.

And they are also smart enough to navigate through the swamp and see the people that appreciate their contribution. So I'll say it. Thank you Microsoft for sponsoring FIRST.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I never thought I'd see the day when people would be anything but excited by growth of the program.

Microsoft's support allows us to have a regional event in Seattle for the first time since 2003 and will give us the leverage we need to grow FIRST programs throughout the region. Prior to 2008, FIRST teams in Seattle had to travel about 200 miles to compete in Portland, OR and that the next closest regional event was in Davis, CA -- 750 miles away. Considering other regions of the United States with similar regional event distribution and how FIRST growth has stagnated there -- Iowa, the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana -- you might understand that it's been difficult to encourage the creation of new teams in the region in a way that demonstrates the efficacy and success of the program.

With two events in the region, we now have the same opportunities to compete and find "success" -- in the form of trophies and banners as immediately identifiable symbols within our culture -- as many other FIRST teams and we're excited for the potential new interest and support that will bring. Further, it's simply cheaper for teams to participate when they do not have to travel and house dozens of people for the opportunity to compete.

In all of this, remember that Microsoft's support of FIRST is not new. My team has proudly listed Microsoft as a sponsor since 2000 and the company has provided software to hundreds of other teams in the Kit of Parts. Sponsoring a regional event -- and earning the naming rights to an event does not come cheap -- is a logical evolution of their involvement and a demonstration of their continued support for the program.

I don't work for Microsoft, but I'm obviously invested in their involvement in FIRST since the existence of my team depends on the support of the company's employees and its support of the program. We're all excited for 2008 and hope that at least some of y'all can get over your intense dislike for the man and make the trip up to see us here in Seattle.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

If Microsoft sees legitimate and coherent points made in this or other threads they will understand why some folks dislike some of their business practices or some of their nearly unavoidable products. They will be delighted to gain that understanding so that they can overcome the objections.

Thanks for helping everyone involved remember that having the authority to announce their opinions publicly in these discussions, comes with an implicit responsibility to also be able to explain them....

If Microsoft is surprised by anything they read on Chief Delphi, I'll be dumbfounded.

If Microsoft is making their investments because they think every FIRST participant already loves the company and its products, I'll be dumbfounded.

I'll bet that they see their investment as one that pays off in at least four ways.
1) It invests in name recognition and product exposure in a large slice of a what will be a valuable, scarce resource, not too long from now (i.e. the students)
2) It dovetails with their vision of the future and their desire/mandate to make money in that future.
3) It is the right thing for a good corporate citizen to do because of altruism and because a rising science, technology, and economic tide floats all boats.
4) It is a good thing to do that will be seen outside the FIRST community.

Success in none of these will depend crucially on what is written here, so long as the debates involve enough scholarship and coherent logic. If their continued sponsorship does hinge on Chief Delphi subscribers not complaining when complaints are merited, I'll be dumbfounded (and rather disappointed); and those folks with a low opinion of the corporation's practices will be somewhat vindicated.

The truth sets you free. Seek it through energetic debate in an open society that cherishes the transparency of its economic and political processes.

Blake

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

"Oh this is good... this is gooo-ooo-oood!" - The Deadly Duplicator

Microsoft creates products and solutions. MS won't adapt to FIRST, FIRST will adapt to a MS solution. I don't see FIRST doing that, not because MS is evil or bad or is headed by a guy who runs around a stage shouting "developers!", it's the fact FIRST wants the control that they can't get with InnovationFIRST now.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

That's not the point. Today people bad mouth Microsoft, tomorrow GM, tomorrow <insert sponsor here>. While their support may not have anything to do what is said on this forum, I would hope that the FIRST community would have enough common sense to show some respect. I do think this falls under the ideals gracious professionalism. You don't bite the hand that feeds you, it's common sense.

If anything, we should be getting Microsoft representatives out to every regional (maybe there will be?) to see just how FIRST inspires its students. Regardless of how you may feel about their business practices, the sheer size of Microsoft alone should give a hint as to how much FIRST stands to gain from partnering more with them. This has the potential to fund more regionals, start more teams, and inspire students in places around the world. What could be better than that?

Also, I'd like to add that I acknowledge that Microsoft has been a sponsor of FIRST and of teams for a while now; I think they're just upping the ante on a much larger scale. They must have liked what they've seen.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I would like to simply thank Microsoft for their support of FIRST. The new regional in Seattle brings FIRST three hours closer to Vancouver, and makes it easier for our team to get local sponsors and community leaders down to see the competition.

As for their alleged plans of global "domination" of robotics, consider that for all the rants (some valid, some less so) against Microsoft, by providing the world with a de-facto standard operating system and office suite it has made it possible to write programs and documents that can be executed/read on basically any computer on the planet. Many CD posters were perhaps not around for the pre-Microsoft era, where software had to be written for Commodores, Apples, Tandys, Ataris, and dozens of other smaller marques, none of which could share media, let alone software or document formats with the others. The computing world was not better off without Microsoft. Right now the robotics world is not so different from the PC world of 30 years ago. Perhaps some standardization might not be a bad thing, and if it is done by a company that has created tens of thousands of good jobs in the Pacific Northwest and around the world that is guided by a person who will eventually be recalled as the most generous philanthropist in history... well... it could be worse, couldn't it?

Thanks again to Microsoft, General Motors, and all the corporations without which FIRST (and many other constructive endeavours) simply would not happen.

See you in Seattle.

Jason

Edit: Just saw the Seattle date... dang... it clashes with the two Canadian regionals... it is the same weekend as Waterloo and just one weekend before Toronto (shipping and time off school may be an issue)... maybe we'll see you in Portland again instead. Which isn't a bad thing at all, really. It might even be fun to go to Seattle to volunteer or just watch a regional for a change.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Except for the little fact, you know, they broke the law. Ooops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft

But hey, what's such a little thing such as an illegal monopoly in the face of history?

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Time travel doesn't exist but I wish people could go back in time and experience the anarchy and the phenomenal costs that existed in computing and communications during that era.

The fact that anyone could set a standard and make it stick has had enormous economic benefits for the world in terms of increasing efficiency and driving down costs. You could occupy a programmer for days just to move a file from one computer to another with thousands of dollars worth of hardware. Now you can just email it.

A lot of people were glad to see the standards.

I most certainly do not want to retry the case here but it was probably inevitable that Microsoft would wind up in this position given the momentum they had and the willingness of the marketplace to reward their efforts.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Careful there - A product is not a standard.

You say this as though there isn't a better way to have accomplished the same goal. If asked, I think I can name at least two ways to have reached the same goal, and one way to move forward from where we are today. None of them would have been as profitable for Microsoft, but I assert that they would serve computer users better than the current state of affairs.

This is a very, red herring. The question is not whether a currently not-excellent situation could have been made worse; but whether it could have been, or could be, made better. In alternative scenarios there might be even more economic stimulation of the Pacific Northwest and other regions of the globe; or there might not.

You did not read all of the statements that have been made carefully enough.

It would seem to me that everyone in this discussion respects large corporations' clout immensely; and that they attempt to praise or dislike other things corporations do, according to the merits of those other things. In short they appear to give respect when and where it is earned. I agree that doing differently would be very disrespectful.

This discussion began when someone speculated that sponsoring a FIRST regional might be part of Microsoft's general foray into the robotics software market. I have attempted to explain why that person's comment is a perfectly reasonable guess to make.

The discussion has slid sideways into whether being annoyed at some of Microsoft's business practices is the same as disliking their unencumbered support of a FIRST regional. I'm pretty sure that the two are not the same.

I do profusely and fervently thank Microsoft Corporation for all donations that are aimed at inspiring students.

No one said we shouldn't. Make it happen.

Or lose... Big and/or wealthy does not equate to good-partner or to bad-partner. Good donor perhaps; but not necessarily good (or bad) partner.

Under the perfectly reasonable assumption that corporation XYZ's donations come without strings attached beyond generating good will and name recognition, that will be a good thing. However, to answer your question, simple cash donations that don't have any strings whatsoever attached to them are even better.

I don't think that you have seen that day yet. I do think you have seen a discussion started by a speculation that Microsoft's increased support of FIRST might be connected to their recent foray into the robotics software development market. So far I have not seen anyone ask Pavan or any other poster if they are delighted or not by Microsoft's support making it possible to add another regional in the Pacific Northwest....

My answer is above.

Blake

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

...Pause discussion.

For a bit of clarification, I wanted to start a discussion to see the opinions of the FIRST community about Microsoft's leap of sponsorship in FIRST from teams to regional status. Also with the fact that a new system is coming out for the 2009 season, it led me to think that Microsoft is somehow involved. I am not saying either of these is a "bad" thing, but what I am asking is if Microsoft's intentions are to just help out FIRST, or help themselves by [eventually] lawyering their partnership with FIRST to make it mandatory for teams to use their software with teams' robots.

I don't really care for Microsoft to be completely honest. I am concerned about Robotics Education being harmed by a potential parasite getting into the system via. sponsorship.

Pavan.

Continue the discussion...

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Nice job starting a war Pavan :-} As M. Krass said who would think that the day would come that some of the FIRST community would attack a organization trying to help FIRST. Who says that they are in it for financial gain. Maybe they are trying to help just like GM, FORD, Delphi, NASA, and all the other sponsors are helping. Trying to spread the word of FIRST to high school student, to get them interested in Science, Math, and Technology. True some of Microsoft's products haven't been the best, but isn't that true for most company's? They may have had made some mistakes in the past but, guess what people, that is in the past. They are trying to move forward and better themselves. What a way to do it, to HELP FIRST. They are making it possible for teams in the North West of the United States to have a close regional they can compete in without spending lots of money to travel and compete. We need to put our differences about Microsoft as an a bad thing, maybe they are but maybe they are not, and look at it as they are trying to help high school students. Not everything in this world is about money.

Jacob

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

So far I'm pretty sure no one has.... Why keep keep trotting out that canard? Who would think that folks would keep claiming attacks have occured?

Wondering aloud about something that is perfectly plausible and that is not improbable, is not attacking. Accurately describing (and the description does have to be accurate) is not attacking.

Implicit in Pavan's comments are a sentiment very similar to what I expressed. To wit: I suspect that he is delighted by all of Microsoft's efforts to inspire students. Other efforts, well... not so much delight. He can correct me if I am wrong.

It is (almost) suprising how much folks talk "past" each other in this thread.

Blake

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I think the tempered enthusiasm displayed for Microsoft's larger participation and support of FIRST in this thread falls squarely in line with my original statement. I don't necessarily believe that anyone is attacking Microsoft in any specific manner -- though the distaste for the company and its products is evident among some posts.

There are few selfless acts and I don't believe that supporting FIRST is among them. The companies that support FIRST, especially at a high dollar level, do so with understanding that their sponsorship is an investment with reciprocal benefits. FIRST and its participating teams receive the support they need, in the form of money, professionals and products, to keep "raising the bar," while the sponsors receive enormous mindshare among the next generation of their workforce and increased familiarity with their products and services. Everyone benefits from these relationships to some degree -- General Motors, NASA, and IFI included -- and to expect that some other company would sign on without wanting a piece of that pie is, perhaps, a bit too idealistic for our existing culture. Maybe some day in the future, if we do what we're here to do, things will change.

I think that discussion about conflicts of interest as they pertain to FIRST sponsors could be engaging and interesting, but I don't quite see why it is that Microsoft's involvement is the catalyst that might spark such a conversation. I don't perceive their position among FIRST's other sponsors as being particularly unique and, in fact, I'd argue that there are extant sponsorship agreements that more closely resemble the doomsday "conflict of interest" scenario Pavan seems to be considering in his posts.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

The unique situation here is the coming together of four things.

1) Microsoft has announced a robotics programming system with far-reaching goals.
2) FIRST has announced a new FRC control system for the 2009 season (simultaneously giving no details and asking for user input using questions that make it seem that the decision has already been made).
3) FIRST is being alternately mysterious and dismissive about the role of VEX in its upcoming programs.
4) Microsoft is sponsoring a regional.

These things might not be related, but it's human nature to seek patterns in noisy data.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I guess I don't understand how, if they are related, that makes this situation much different than existing and past sponsorship agreements.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

I believe that i heard somewhere that the 2009 controller will be an IFI product, just a very updated one.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

Bah! All speculation! Everyone stop posting speculation (in this and other threads)... between some local FIRST things and talking to some FIRSTers online I have heard 10+ "I heard somewhere that...." but none are true.... Just wait until we get some details.

On the other hand, I'd love it if they stuck with IFI (kind of a customer loyalty thing, ya know?). They have many years of experience in FIRST that would help in the creation of a new controller.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

IFI is NOT involved with the controller at this point.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

I've changed the title of this thread and moved it to the general forum since there's very little discussion about the specific details of the event itself and, now that I have such information to share, I'll be creating a new thread in the "regional competitions" forum.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

I love IFI as much as the next person, and I would hate more than anything to see it go, but honestly, I don't see anything wrong with one of the worlds largest companies coming in to sponsor FIRST. Everyone may hate Microsoft for this and that, but in the end, its still all good for FIRST.

The only bad thing about Microsoft coming in is that it leans more and more towards the theory that IFI is being replaced by MS, which is very unfortunate.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Ok so almost everyone here is saying that MS is taking over FIRST because they have 1 regional... one little regional in the northwest. ok so:

does that mean that BAE tried to take over FIRST when they brought a regional back to the founding state of NH?

does does that mean that UTC has tried to take over FIRST because they sponsor a lot of teams around the Hartford area and the regional in Hartford?

Heck what about NASA... they sponsor the MOST teams in first, and have a regional. are they taking over?


Yes FIRST may move to use MS product in 2009, but they may not. No one in FIRST or MS has come out and said we have made a partnership to do this and that. What they have said is they will sponsor a regional, putting it in Seattle so that teams don't have to drive 10 hours to get to the closest regional.

As for MS taking over FIRST, that is going to be nearly impossible. Honestly, they would have to convince the entire FIRST staff that MS was right, but how could they do that when FIRST has a goal, a goal they are very driven to.

I believe that Dean, Woodie and the rest of the gang are smart enough to realize if MS tries to do this, and they would inevitably deal with this (atleast i hope)

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

it's nothing to get upset about at all! FIRST is a program that is designed to help kids towards a future in science/tech. it takes money to do these things (lots of money now because of the incredibly wide expansion for FIRST). Whether it's a huge corporation that has monopolized or a small business that is run independently, any additional help, funding and interest to spread the word of FIRST is recognized and appreciated. i don't think this should really be a problem that anyone should be concerned with. if youre upset that it is particularly microsoft because of their 'greed' and 'want to take over the world,' shouldn't we get upset about lockheed martin's relation to building and creating items that could also be used with world domination? it's just illlogical to get upset. lets celebrate!

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

I don't have any issue with Microsoft sponsoring a regional, or even providing some kind of software support, such as a compiler, or IDE. What I don't want to see happen is a Microsoft product becoming a "standard." Microsoft is not a robotics company so it would be a great opportunity for Microsoft to get its foot in the door with FIRST. The problem begins when thousands of people start using their "standard" and then we're stuck using their stuff for years to come. Look at the OOXML fiasco which is happening right now for an example of this.

I think it's a mistake moving away from a proven system. The IFI controller is powerful, and very customizable if you really get into it. The ability to use a language like C is great, and I would not like to have to program a robot in C# or any .NET language for that fact. Also keep in mind, if FIRST goes with Microsoft's control system, people who prefer to program in alternative operating systems can kiss that privilege goodbye.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Microsoft sponsoring a regional is a great thing. They have money, and that's exactly what FIRST needs. Plus, they're expanding the program. At this stage in time, it's all positive gains. As long as I'm not forced to use an unstable product on my robot (read: If my bot BSod's, I will be VERY unhappy), then it's all chill.


Seriously folks. Why can't we all just sit back and wait for things to unfold? It seems as if every week there's a new whine-fest (pardon the expression, but they're really frustrating!) showing up on here, mostly made up of speculation and opinions that were recently formed based on rumors.


So I think we all need to take a communal deep breath, relax, and go back to freaking about about dlavery's red herrings.

[/.2cents]

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

The game between the two this passed Saturday was so terrible I turned it off after 10 minutes to watch the TN-FL game.

After learning how much it costs to simply RENT THE VENUE FOR A SINGLE REGIONAL for the 3 days per regional we need, I applaud Microsoft for their efforts in sponsoring engineering education. The aforementioned financial dollar amount is well into 6 figures if I have my numbers correct.

The fact that there are several currently-unaddressed bugs that irritate the crap outta me on my new laptop that has Vista will undoubtedly make me cautious when approaching the subject of whether or not their influence into our FRC controllers is a good thing. If Microsoft prys and prys and attempts to get a long-standing implementation of their robotics platform as the official FRC controller, I seriously doubt I can continue believing that FIRST isn't full of themselves in their beliefs. This in no way affects my thanks to Microsoft in supporting the Seattle Regional.

So blatently narrowing down the field to one specific platform has both hurt and helped FIRST teams in their rookie and onward seasons. Simplicity vs. Limitations is a huge balance between the variety of experience of teams out there. Becoming limited to a single-platform controller would be the first mistake FIRST makes if they go with Microsoft for the controller -- the one good thing that Microsoft is extremely good at is ensuring that you only have the open doors that you're "allowed" to go through. Attempting it any other way seems to be nearly impossible without spending a ridiculous amount of time on it or you perchance can find another hack into IE browser "robot edition"

I that said, I don't want Microsoft as the new platform on the controller -- not because of their history of whatever you can find, but because of their history of the Microsoft-everything dependency.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

For those that do not understand corporate America, let me state a few things.

Corporations are not in business to help FIRST or any other group. They are not in business to give anyone gainful employment. They are not in business to be good corporate citizens.

They ARE in buisiness to make money for their shareholders or owners. Any buisiness that forgets this is generally not in business for long.

They make their money by dominating (ar attempting to) their chosen markets. Microsoft is no exception to this. In this case they see a potential emerging market that they are well suited to be a major player in. At the same time they get to appear as being a good corporate citizen by helping the students learn and be creative. For Microsoft, this is a win-win situation.

Should we question Microsofts motivations when accepting their charity? Absolutely, just as we should question EVERY doners motivation. BAE, Microsoft, MIT, NASA, Parker, Bimba, Andy-Mark, Small Parts, Etc they all have motivation to support FIRST ... and we, as the recipiants of that charity are obliged to question that motivation.

Is Microsoft just being charitable by supporting the Seattle regional? No, getting their name on the regional gives them name recognition in the robotics emerging market. Does that mean that we should not accept their charity? Again no. As long as we understand their motivations, and those motivations do not stand counter to our beliefs in FIRST, then both the goals of FIRST and the goals of Microsoft can be met. Win-Win.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Phillip-Morris wanted to give out money to Richmond, VA teams. Should we have taken it?

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

And this is why I said
Both companies are trying to influence the next generation with their product. The issue then becomes does either product fall within the teachings and ideals of FIRST.

Microsofts product is a tool. Tools can be both used and misused. As long as we teach our children how to use the tools properly we can make a better future. The use of Microsofts products are within the ideals of FIRST.

Phillip-Morris' product (There most well known product ... Cigerettes) is a controlled addictive substance. I do not believe that Phillip-Morris' product is within the ideals of FIRST and therefore we should not partner with them.


The above, as usual, is IMHO

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Yes - it gives them no real benefit - simply because you accept money from Phillip Morris doesn't mean that you believe what they do is morally or ethically correct.

In a way - it's their method of "atoning" for sins - and why not let them do some good.

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Yes. Phillip-Morris owns Kraft under the Altria Group. Just let them know that you will have an Altria Group logo rather than Phillip-Morris logo. That way you are promoting Kraft and Nabisco.

Pavan.

Re: Microsoft Regional
 

:ahh: :ahh:
i was planning on reading the whole thread but stopped at this post, yes, microsoft TRIES to monopolize everything they come to, but what HAVE they monopolized in other than OSs?

Consoles? no, theyre definately in the race though

Peripherals? nope

so yeah... they may try, but fail if they do.... plus would it be THAT bad if they did?

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Let me suggest that this might not be the way to go. In the example, it is Phillip-Morris (or, to keep track with the body of the thread, Microsoft) that is making the donation to the team. The donation is not coming from Altria - or Kraft, or Nabisco. They are not interchangeable.

If the team has made the decision that is it within their ethical standards to accept a donation from a cigarette manufacturer, then they should be willing to declare so publicly. To try to substitute donor identities seems to say "we are not too ashamed to take your money, but we are ashamed to be publicly connected to you." That would call the ethical integrity of the team into question. To then take the additional step of saying "we are going to tell everyone that a different organization made the donation" would smack of dishonesty.

Actually, six regionals this year, but who is counting? :)

-dave

Re: On Microsoft's Increased Sponsorship of FIRST // Was: Microsoft Regional
 

Well, I'm pretty sure NASA has already taken over FIRST (6 regionals, webcasts, and several hundred teams), but do I'm not concerned. I look up to NASA as being pretty sweet. Becuase, when was the last time your ion engine processed 245 kilograms of xenon?

I don't think the BAE argument holds up. BAE builds things that fly, and if they took over FIRST, water games would be the least of our worries. BAE has a vested interest in the workers they can acquire from FIRST, but not from the products they can sell to FIRST. Whereas Microsoft stands to gain a great deal from getting FIRST to use their platform. They'll have thousands to students using it, who'll be used to it, and continue to use it beyond high school. I don't know exactly what UTC does (aren't they a conglomerate of sorts?), but I don't think they have anything to gain from selling to us.

And, I don't think what people are concerned about is a "take over", where the FIRST staff at 200 Bedford are left out in the cold and Microsoft takes control of FIRST. What they're more worried about is a change from the relatively tried and true IFI controller configuration where we know exactly what we're getting.

I know what our mentors are at least concerned about is a movement towards a simplified coding environment, where the lower level stuff isn't accessable. I think FIRST stands too much to lose in the way of awesome autonomouses that they like to put in all of their promotional videos if they move in that direction though.