The Sad truth
 

unfortunently im not the best author so some of my points may sound a little bit gramatically off... but i think my point is clear...


More and more today I am seeing once great teams falling out of the FIRST Program because they just can't keep up with the rising cost. In the past seven years that i have praticipated in first I have seen a dramatic change in the way first is run.
The sad reality is that first isnt about kids anymore, its about makeing money for teams and trying to get the rest of the world interested in what we do. It is not a bad thing to promte engineering to kids, but they should be promoting what the kids have built, not who sponsors them or the fact that we can go to the georgia dome to compete. In the first years of first, the idea was for the kids to build a robot with the guidence of local engineers. But now it is the team with the bigger sponsor wins. There isnt even a true national Championship anymore. To get to a championship event you should qualify by being the best in a region not paying the entry fee.
Im not trying to bash FIRST, if it wasent for FIRST i would not have persued an engineering carrer. All i am trying to say is that instead of worrying about getting bigger and bigger, they should get back to their roots and see the reel reason we all are a part of first. TO LEARN about engineering.

Re: The Sad truth
 

The sad truth is life is like an onion. You peel away layers to get to the center of it. The more you peel away the more it stinks and makes you cry.
Any organization suffers from warts. From our government, to organized religion to your local PTA or any robotics team. So why is that? Well mainly due to the human element. Not everyone is going to seek the same thing from any given element. There are people who are in FIRST to make a difference and there are people who are in FIRST for personal glory and people who joined FIRST just to pick up girls.
So FIRST isn't the rosy perfection that we FIRST thought it to be. Is anything in this world? Before all of you go flying off the handle and start talking craziness like outright quitting the program or something like that you find me something in this mad mad world that is perfect through and through and I'll follow you right out that door.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Im talking about quite the opposite of quiting, im talking about the teams that have to miss out because the school board is cutting the major donations or even the program becasue it is just too much money. all im saying is trying that first to grow too fast and forgeting about what is most important... Teaching kids about engineering

Re: The Sad truth
 

There is more to it than just strictly financial reason.
Teams die out due to teacher support issues or lack of interest from the student body.
What exactly would be considered an acceptable rate of growth for FIRST because one complaint I have heard over the years on CD is how FIRST has grown so much and how it isn't like how it used to be.
How is FIRST going to change the culture if it's only limited to a few hundred school? Or even a few thousand?

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As an engineering major I am told that numbers don't lie. I would like to see numbers on how many FIRST teams are started vs. how many existing teams don't register for any competitions. I have thought about this issue a lot and I actually heard Andy and Mark talking to a 1251 mentor about this. Bottom line starting a teams is great but lets make sure we keep the existing ones.

Drew

Re: The Sad truth
 

Things grow, you can't go back to a small cozy number of teams. However, teams don't have to have a major sponser to do well at an event, nor to be picked by someone who did.

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If teams are finding it difficult to raise the necessary cash levels to compete in FRC, there are alternatives that provide (IMHO) nearly* as much inspiration for engineering as FRC. These include:

FIRST Tech Challenge (cost: $300 + competition entry fees)
Savage Soccer (free!)
Bridge Battle (free!)
Botball
Trinity Firefighting Robot Competition
Marble Madness (up to $75)
Rah Cha Cha Ruckus Vex Game (cost: $10)
MATE (Underwater) ROV Competition
BEST Robotics, Inc.
Battlebots IQ

...and the list goes on and on. ;)

Re: The Sad truth
 

This is the million dollar question.

FRC will never meet Dean's goal of being in every school in America. It's simply too expensive. Much of the country is already saturated with teams. There isn't enough money to support more than a few teams per school district (or even that many, in some cases).

The average FRC team probably costs in excess of $10,000 per year. That's an astronomically high price for an after school activity. Granted we all know it's one of the most amazing programs a student can be a part of, but all that money has to come from somewhere.

VEX/FTC is a big step forward towards Dean's vision. It could be plausible that sometime in the near(ish) future there could be a FTC team in most schools in the country. It's much cheaper, yet it also gives students a taste of the experience they will receive in FRC. Once they move on from VEX, they can join a local FRC team, even if their school does not have it's own.

I've thought for awhile that FIRST is growing too quickly in California. I don't know about other states, but it seems like too many teams are being started, with no long term plan for funding, mentorship, etc (or a plan, but just falling short of being able to execute it). I'd much rather see no new teams be started, and every old team last at least 10 years than a ton of new teams popping up, but then being forced to quit after a few years when they can't sustain their program.

Mentor turnover is a big issue too. Working (or going to school), mentoring a team, raising a family, having a life outside of FIRST, etc is very difficult with the current time commitment required by FRC mentors. It's very easy to burn out, between the actual work with the students, and the strain of arranging travel, fundraising, paperwork, actual travel and supervision of the students, etc.

I know personally that last year I was spending over 65 hours a week physically at our team's facility during the competition season. Combine that with attending school full time, missing 12 days of class (and even more time with friends/family/etc) due to attending competitions, and eventually something has to give.

Pretty soon there will be too many teams for anyone to attend the Championship, outside of regional winners, and chairman's award winners. Presumably at some point there may not even be enough space for all those teams.

FRC will get too big for it's own good. The only question is how soon will it be?

Re: The Sad truth
 

That's not why I am part of FIRST.

I'm here to help inspire students in the fields of science and technology...and to have boatloads of fun in the process. I'm here to see my ideas get combined with the ideas of other people in order to make a finished product that does amazing things. I'm here to give students the opportunity to be part of a wonderful collaboration between community and business, between education and industry, between mentees and mentors, between parents and teachers and engineers and salesmen and custodians and carpenters and on and on...

Engineering is only one corner of the FIRST experience. The larger goal is nothing short of changing the culture of the planet to make technology -- and those who work with it -- something to celebrate. Growth is vital in order to make progress toward that goal.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Have you ever seen a high school football team budget?

Re: The Sad truth
 

Yes. But that price is absorbed by the school. Nearly every (is there any high school without a football team?) school has a football team. The students don't have to come up with the money themselves. The football team will exist every year, regardless of how little money a school district has, because something else like FIRST will get cut before the budget for sports does. I can't think of any student/parent/mentor fundraised activities that are as expensive as FIRST.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Doesn't this come down to the priorities of the school and school district?

As much as I might enjoy football, I don't think of it as a necessary activity that has a positive impact on society and our future. Yet, sports programs often thrive in schools where computer access for students is limited, laboratory equipment is archaic, arts and music departments face budget cuts. That's just wrong!

When doing Dean's homework, we need to clearly describe this situation in writing to our government officials. If FIRST becomes "curriculum" where the costs are borne through district budgets (derived from the tax base), then FIRST teams won't have to struggle to do so much fund-raising or rely on fickle corporate sponsors in order to survive. I think doing some fund-raising and selling the FIRST program to sponsors is in itself a valuable, educational activity, but it shouldn't become an overwhelming, all-consuming ordeal.

While we're at it, students should look at their own spending habits: extravagant proms, expensive clothing/shoes, latest video/computer games, etc. before criticizing the cost of FIRST participation. Do the "cost-benefit" analysis and decide what the best use of your dollars is in the long run. Don't you get more out of a trip to Atlanta than a night in a limo, tux and fancy dinner?

Priorities...it's in Dean's message.

Re: The Sad truth
 

FIRST teaches many things, and I think you are now just touching on one of the hidden lessons of FIRST.

In business, it's not just about creating a better mousetrap. You need to be able to sell both your businss model and product. You can have the best mousetrap in the world, but if no one knows about it then your business will fail.

Also, unless business continuously grow, and continuously re-invent themselves, they will eventually die out as new and more innovative companies / products come along.

The above statements are also true about FIRST teams. If you cannot fundraise (sell the idea of the robotics team and FIRST) then even if you have the best team in the world ... it will fail.

Teams need a business plan and strategy for securing funding and recruiting students / mentors. Teams need a clear understanding of where they are going and how much they can (and cannot) afford. In essence, teams need a business plan. And this plan needs to include all the possibilities, not just a rosy outlook.

I also disagree with those with the biggest sponsor wins. I believe that those who have a clear understanding of their capabilities, both physical and financial, and design and build within those capabilities are the teams that succeed.

I do agree that the championship should be only for those that have earned a spot at the championship event. Regional winners, Regional chairman award winners, Regional rookie all-star award winners, engineering inspiration award winners, and past championship chairman award winners only. Having money should not be a consideration.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Good thread.

Daniel's and Alan's comments are spot on I think.

Decades ago I met someone that started their own very successful engineering company. The one thing I remember that he said that it didn't matter what you designed and made if you can't sell it.

At all of our meetings I tell everyone, especially the newbies that at least half the time needs to be spent doing "marketing and sales". Selling the program to the public, the faculty and administration, sponsors, media, etc.

Your business plan is one of the most important things you will design. It will help solve many problems. Funding/sponsorship and "business" continuity are some of them.

re: football and such. I know of plenty of marching bands that easily exceed $1,000 to $1,200 per person just in fees, not including all the other out of pocket expenses. Those are student fees and do not include contributions, direct or indirect from the school. There are other activities that meet or exceed that level of student contribution.

Re: The Sad truth
 

I believe both of those points are your opinion. I, for one, feel totally different. I don't care if the students know the difference between an op-amp and a resistor.. I just care that they have fun, pump that muscle in their head, and eventually get into college with a ton of scholarship money. These students have their entire college career to learn about engineering. Let's try to let them have some fun while they can.

Re: The Sad truth
 

I'm pretty sure you're not looking at the same budgets I am. A large part of the funding for most sports programs comes from tickets and concession sales, booster clubs provide another big chunk, and sponsorship is significant. In a few specific cases I know, parents are required to volunteer (yes, it's an oxymoron) for a certain amount of concession duty, or to buy their way out of the obligation. The costs cannot be "absorbed" by the school; they must be covered by income from specific sources.

And in many schools, the students (or their parents) do pay to be part of the football team, sometimes on the order of several hundred dollars a season.


The biggest difference in funding models I see between football and FRC teams is that admission is free to watch FRC competitions. As long as FRC is cheap for the spectators, it will be expensive for the participants.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Basic economic theory tells us that if I give you something, I want something of value in return.

Sponsors have to see value in their support. If they perceive things as they pay money so someone else can have a hobby, or even an education, then that is a non-starter.

Sponsors have to be convinced that there is a value proposition here. ( FRC )is important to us but probably not to them. Substitute FRC for every other activity that happens at school and the community and you will see what I mean.

If you can persuade enough sponsors to see enough value to them and the community then you have a shot at getting 100, or 500 or 1,000 bucks or even more from each of them.

The persuading is the (relatively) easy part. The harder part is figuring out how to connect the dots on bringing value to the potential sponsor.

There is a reason Tyco supports FIRST and Yamaha supports Band and Nike supports sports, etc.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Another one of the hidden aspects/bonuses of FIRST is learning.
The students learn, the mentors learn, the sponsors learn, the school systems learn. Part of the business plan is to get the word out. What good is the word if no one is listening and starting to understand the scope of FIRST's mission? If there is no learning, there is no chance of recognition and inspiration. It gets - really - fun when you enter our outstanding teachers into this mix. They are natural born educators. Yes, they want to inspire - but I guarantee you, when a teacher is involved, there is going to be a lot of learning involved as well. I see it every day on our team.

Re: The Sad truth
 

Boy Howdy !!

I'm really starting to see this one happening. We have some great teachers mentoring to some of our efforts and they really bring a whole new perspective to things. It really helps puts the capital 'T' in team.

Build a broad student team and mirror the mentors against that. Engineers, business types, communicator, educators...

Re: The Sad truth
 

In the Northeast many smaller schools do not have football teams and many middle class school systems are going increasingly to "pay to play" funding.

Back to the original topic: Maintaining the health of existing teams should be a part of the overall FIRST Growth plan. Teams need to find long term support from their school or sponsor to pay that difficult initial entry fee so the students only need to raise money for a trip and can focus on science and technology.

Re: The Sad truth
 

That's part of the President's Circle mission right now. While the initial focus has been on collecting resources for bringing new teams into being, there's also an emphasis on sustaining (and enriching) teams that already compete.

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FIRST is doing that. Do you remember the homework assignment from last year? We need to start shifting our focus away from private sources and start demanding public sources for the funding we need. This is going to require a shift in our thinking. We need to start inspiring the local community and getting them excited about what we are doing everyday.

Re: The Sad truth
 

A few years ago I used think that raising $10-$20k a year was such a huge ordeal, but now that our team is well established at our school, the burden of raising that much money becomes less. This year our parents have become more involved in fundraising and several of them also participate in fundraising for athletics and band. $20k a year for one of the big three athletic teams (football, baseball, basketball) is nothing. Heck our school's band program goes through almost $80k a year. I hear parents fork out at least $500 for their kid to play football. So I don't think that it's necessarily true that FIRST is the most expensive activity in school. I do think most schools with an enrollment of 1200+ can support a FIRST team, it will just take time.

Districts may cut robotics budgets before athletics only because they know it will cause less of an uproar. If parents and the community expect robotics in a school - then it won't get cut. We had a change in superintendent a few years back and our team was receving funds from the sup's personal budget. When the new sup came into the district I had to go ask for the money that had been available in the past and she knew she had to support it because it would be "political suicide" if she didn't - those were her words not mine!!

A previous post discussed how many teams depend heavily on the mentors and if the mentors leave the team dies. I'm sure this may be sadly true for many teams, but if they've been around and involving parents, alumni, and other mentors (like what athletics and band programs do), then these teams would continue. I know if I had to leave my team, it would continue on without me.

Re: The Sad truth
 

I think one of my points was potraied wrong, when i mentioned learnging about engineering, i should have said all the aspects that first teaches kids. All im saying is that you cant expect every school in america to get new programs when the ones that already exist are struggeling to make enough money to compete.

Re: The Sad truth
 

The good news is, I believe FIRST realises that there are several school systems that will take longer than they hoped to bring in Sci/Tech programs to their schools -- hence FTC. The bad news is, at least here in Northern Viriginia FTC has exploded and there aren't enough spots in the FIRST FTC competitions for all of the teams.

I played football in Middle Georgia for 3 years in high school. Each year our budget (including paying the coaches a bit extra, keeping the grass green on the field, 1-wk football camp, equipment, travel, steak dinners at long away games, etc) was in excess of $100k. How did we manage it? About half of that money came from the school board; the other half from booster clubs. In other words, the community that's interested in a program pays for the program. How are FRC teams any different?

In real life, I use almost nothing I learned from football except that with a bit of hard work you can get somewhere. Oh, and I have bad knees on top of that. I could have (and wished I would have) learned that from a FIRST FRC team instead. At least then I would have gone to college with a purpose other than "I'm supposed to go to college to get a good job".

Re: The Sad truth
 

I've been thinking about this for a little while. It took awhile to figure out exactly why this bothers me, but I think I have gathered my thoughts.

"FIRST just wants to grow bigger.. FIRST just wants to make money". It made me think.. who is this "FIRST" that has lost its way? Is it the people behind desks in Manchester? They deal with general FIRST finances, but aren't the ones going and expanding so much. What about the mentors and volunteers? Being volunteers they certainly aren't "in it for the money", but they certainly are the ones starting new teams. But then, they are also the ones who are teaching, which was pointed out as a major goal. Students doing Dean's homework are working on expanding as well, but are the core of this program. Is Dean "doing it for the money"? I don't think so... but one of the goals is to expand and change the way society views science and technology and to educate.

The issue of team funding has come up. The comparison to athletic programs has been made. FIRST teams may or may not be funded by the school. The same goes for athletics. A lot of teams do struggle to find funds year after year, but is that because FIRST is expanding? I personally don't think so. A school which funds an athletic program over an educational program such as FIRST, in my opinion, has priorities which need to be changed. By expanding a program like this, that can happen. Science and technology and education should be made a greater priority in todays society, and I believe that this program is helping to do that.

Of course, student education is important. You learn things by learning how to build a robot. You learn things by being part of a team. Maybe you'll want to be an engineer after being on a team...maybe not. I think this program is bigger than students building a robot and being helped by local engineers. It's definitely bigger than finding out who can build the best robot. It's in the name.. its for inspiration and recognition of science and technology. It's having students, teachers, mentors, sponsors, corporations, government officials, and everyone else aware of the importance of science and technology in today's world. Everyone in that group is "FIRST". Everyone from the students who learn the difference between a sprocket and a gear, to the company who wrote out a check for a local team to compete. That's why sponsors are thanked; that's why there are awards. If you're here reading this, you've probably been inspired by some part of this program. I know I have, and I'm grateful and thank everyone who put something into it.

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I hate to perpetuate the off-topic tangent of athletics compared to FIRST, but I feel that a few of the people who have posted in this thread have a belief that is mildly disturbing to me. I don't think the point of FIRST was to entirely replace athletics, and I don't think that FIRST should ever replace athletics. By saying people need to re-evaluate their priorities for supporting athletics over FIRST, your essentially saying that athletic teams should be put in the same shoes many of these struggling FIRST teams are in (or more to the point, not exist, as many school don't have FIRST teams but do have athletics).
It would be great if FIRST had the same funding, publicity, and support as the athletic teams, but I don't think FIRST should usurp their place entirely. Sure, there are lessons in FIRST that are much harder to get, if possible at all, from sports. But sports have value in our society too.
Chief Delphi is a community primarily composed of people on the intellectual side of the spectrum. And as such, a heavy value is placed upon intellectual priorities, resulting in great value for FIRST, an intellectual and educational program. But, these intellectual and educational programs are only part of what is needed to create a functioning society as a whole.
Even on the simplest, most direct level athletics has values that FIRST does not possess. Athletic programs emphasize physical activity, physical activity that helps break up the average American's increasingly sedentary life style. While FIRST is not entirely devoid of physical activity, claiming it has the same value for physical fitness as athletics would be ludicrous. This is just one example of the value of athletic programs.
To say that any society that funds athletic programs over FIRST needs to reorganize their priorities is a dramatic view.

Re: The Sad truth
 

I totally agree that athletics are beneficial and shouldn't (and will never be) completely replaced by FIRST. Both should be availiable to inspire people to do things they want to do. I do though, as dramatic as it may be, think that priorities do need to be re-evaluated. Of course sports have value in society, but I think that's also part of the issue. Things like FIRST promote the value in things other than sports and popular culture which sometimes gets lost in today's society. The point is that I think priorities need to be looked at because science and technology, and the people behind it should have more value.

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Here in Guilford County, North Carolina we have a county commissioner that makes sure the pee wee football team from his dist. get $25,000 of the tax payers money... :mad:

$10,000 not that much when you look at what the county gives for after school programs/groups.

A smart team would go to the city asking for 10K then the county asking for another 10K usually the city gov will match what the county gives.

Re: The Sad truth
 

for me FIRST is about learning about leadership, engineering, team work and all that good stuff. But I also think that a major part of first and its success is how fun it is and the quality of the relationships that are made in it. I honestly love FIRST only because it is so fun and I make tons of great friends and experiences through it.

-vivek

Re: The Sad truth
 

Please do not assume that all teams have the same political landscape. And please do not assume that just because you have access to things, that all teams have that same access.

Here in the North East, County governments have little to no power or money. Our team, 1824, covers 3 High schools serving 7 small townships (no cities). Politics are, and always will be, local. Just because we can't go to our "city or county government" doesn't mean we aren't being a 'smart team'.

Before you critisize, walk a mile in their shoes.

Re: The Sad truth
 

When the University of Helsinki is the one who come up with a 50% increased success rate for curing brain cancer by using electromagnetic waves even though some US universities spent twice as much money on it, or when it's 3 non-US universities that use nanocarbon tubes and flourescent jelly from Jellyfish in order to study how the preliminary stages of cancer attack T-cells in the body, or when ... well perhaps nothing's wrong, nevermind.

The sad truth is inherent in what you're saying: sports, entertainment, and recycling money to make more money still reign supreme over science and technology. The point is that FIRST needs to make sure they do more to encourage teams to have an extended business plan rather than "start xyz teams by next year". If it takes convincing a school that they need to take away a little funding from sports to fund a FRC team then so be it -- maybe that's a small part of the reason for Dean's shift in homework assignments in 2007. Science and Technology NEEDS that support, publicity, and funding. There's nothing dramatic about it.

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Agreed. Our city is very short of funds. I was at a recent city commission meeting where they voted to use funds to install crosswalk signals near a new middle school, even though the funds would have to come out of general street repairs. They couldn't wait to see if they could get a grant in a few months - kids are crossing at that intersection now. Balancing safety needs like that against wants of a robotics team, guess what wins?

As for the county, there are at least 19 FRC teams in Oakland County. Funding all of them would add up to a nice pile of change.

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i agree i started an FTC team at the age of 13 (and its our rookie year this year) and we got a sponsor and have had alot of financial issues (suaully to do with shipping costs) but we've pulled through ok, you just have to improvize with the resources you've got, ive changed my design several times now but iv finally found the right one that works and i can build it with the limited number of parts we have

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this is true. What would happen if all 19 teams requested the money at the same time? Imagine the scene if the entire meeting venue was crowded with students, teachers, mentors and school administrators requesting funding for a worthwhile cause? Start with a small amount, say $500 - $1000 per team. Show that the teams are making an impact then you can request more in the future. Invite your reps to events, meets or whatever shows your team at their best. If you can build LOCAL support, politicians will listen.

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Our team comes from a unique environment. We are located in a large city. We have the luxury that most teams don't. The Toronto District School Board is really behind FIRST. They pay for the Regional Director as a full time person. They support all of FIRST's programs. They financially support all of their FRC teams to the point of paying for their fees for the Greater Toronto Regional. I say this not to make others feel bad but to point to what I feel is necessary for FIRST to grow. My belief is that we shouldn't be trying to start individual teams but rather convert school boards. There are many times I have spoken to teams from outside of T.O. and hear of the trouble even getting the school boards support. Getting money is out of the question with them.

School administration is political. The teachers and principals want to look good to their bosses. If we can get the boards to promote the cause then the local schools will jump on board. How do we accomplish that you ask? :confused: Ahhh, that is a topic for another thread.:D

Re: The Sad truth
 

I would be somewhat careful with wanting to get this sponsorship from you school systems. Once they become a sponsor you will then be under their rules and guidelines from top to bottom. This will affect the way money is spent, who the coaches are, where your meetings are going to be, where you go for regionals and so on. Also the school systems support is going to go back to how good the tax base is which leads back to the better funded will still be the survivors. I think that lack of funding for existing teams is like a normal business problem that needs to be addressed by the team and a plan devised as to how the group as a whole will over come the problem.

Remember this is me talking about myself and not anyone else.

I was one of those people that complained and felt sorry for our group because others had more or better sponsorship than my team. I blamed our record and performance on the lack of funds. It was till I quit crying about the situation and buckled down and used the talents of my group to fix the problem and did things change. There is a reason the well funded teams keep their funding and as unfair as it seems get more. You must research these teams find what they are doing and emulate what will work for you. Don't get caught up in what they are doing well now but what they did in the beginning to get there. I have told many teams this and I can tell they think you don't understand you have sponsorship. Keep in mind that 95% of the time big-time sponsorship doesn’t come with valet parking and room service. Again this is just me but I feel that the more self supported your group is than school supported the more pride your team will have. I think the hardest thing to keep in mind is that you build a robot, write a chairman’s, go to regionals, do community service and FUNDRAISE. It is not optional and it has to be worked on like any of the other areas.

Footnote: I was at a FIRST forum in MI about 4 years or so ago and I was whining about First razing the entry fees. This guy in the front of the room turned around and very abruptly, loudly told me "you have to pay to play. Everything costs money and this cost so much and if you’re in you will pay what it cost. So find the money or don't." Now I will say I was ready to throw down right there (not really he looked much meaner than I perceive myself to be) but I didn't. About two days latter I began to let that sink in and began doing what he said and found a way to pay. Hope this makes since in this thread.

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Especially in Connecticut, where there are no county governments. The only thing counties are used for here are for weather bulletins.

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Long post ahead-- I apologize in advance.

-Yes, there are many teams dropping out of FIRST. My team may be one of them this year, unfortunately. Part of the rising cost is because FIRST is expanding at a ridiculous rate. The more kits they have to send out, fields they have to fabricate, and venues they have to rent, the more it's going to cost us, the teams. That's unfortunate, but it happens.

-Part of the reason FIRST has had to make dramatic changes in they way it's been run is because of expansion. Back in ye olde days, those "team updates" we look forward to were sent via fax to every team. That wouldn't exactly work with as many teams as there are now.-- hence, change in management styles. They've outgrown the Manchester HS Gym, and they've outgrown Disney. It all takes adjusting. Part of what I think is causing this widespread discontent (my favorite example: update 16) is because many of us don't understand-- every year is completely different from the folks up in Manchester. We're not the only ones with new challenges.

-Now, this may just be my opinion, but I was fortunate enough to be able to work as a camp counselor up at FIRST Place this summer-- As far as I could gather from the people I spoke to, this isn't about the money for them. It's about loving what they're doing, and seeing others inspired. I'm pretty sure that's about the kids.


On to another quote...


-Agreed. Very agreed. I've been attending competitions since before I can remember. Back then, I didn't know what half the stuff on the machines was (I still don't...:p )..and I really didn't care! Why? Because I was having a fantastic time. That's what these things are about, aren't they?

-As a member of a team whose community does not support them one bit, at all, I definitely agree with this. If noone will listen to a team, it's not the team's fault if they aren't able to compete. It's also a kick in the butt to those teams to be a little louder.



My own opinion here- I really don't think it's FIRST's fault if a team doesn't compete. And please, don't take that as me blaming teams. I come from a team that's struggling right now, so if anything, I'm blaming myself here. A team's inability to participate depends on a lot of things. FIRST expanding may up the cost of things, but it certainly is in FIRST's plan to keep teams going after they're started. Even if a team can't keep its' head above water, I'm sure there's a team nearby that would love to take its members and mentors in for a year while they get themselves together. That way, everyone gets their experience.

That's what this whole thing is about. Experience. Not the experience of winning a regional, but the experience of putting your heart and soul into something for six weeks, and celebrating that at the most fun event of the year. Well, at least that's what it's about for me.

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Keep in mind: FIRST has only been around for 15 years or so. Athletics have been around in our school since the 1920s, it probably goes back well into the 1800s for some older schools! If you think of FIRST's success so far it is rather astonishing. I think in another century FIRST will be as popular as athletics.

just my 2 cents, vivek

Re: The Sad truth
 

Just keep in mind, as FIRST grows, the strategy of how to keep this type of program evolves. The larger it gets, the more complex it is to manage, the higher the costs are to facilitate it. As with inflation rising and the cost of living going up - good luck with waitng for costs to go down. If it is too costly for a team to continue they need to rethink their options and chose a viable one that meets their long term needs.

As long as the basic goal of the program remains the same, "inspiring students to science and technological fields via partnerships".

Politics exist in all facets and finances will always be a factor in discussions like these. Keep the focus on the main goal.

As Alan mentioned earlier - keep it fun, exciting, and challenging so that the volunteer engine keeps chugging away. Remember this whole program is volunteer driven with the students as the focus.

Party on and screw the politics, rumors and all this political correctness. It'll just give you bad gas.

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LOL!!! Yeah, that's pretty much the bottom line.

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I was NOT critisizing... simply offering one possible way for a team to get some funding ... Elected officials ALWAYS have pet projects and find the money for them... its called "pork" !
If your officials don't have any "pork projects" congrats! Your very lucky.

If the school dist can't fund the team, perhaps the mentors of the team could met with the school dist and see if the school would not cancel the team if the team could find its own funding.

I'm sorry if you felt criticized.

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A couple of posts suggest that the larger FIRST gets the more its costs. that suggests that a team cost structure goes up also.

I disagree. I don't think you looking at costs correctly.

Program costs per team actually goes down as the program grows for several reasons.

Fixed costs -
Some items in the FIRST budget are fixed. It doesn't matter it there are 1 or 10,000 teams. As the number of teams increase the less cost per team as that cost is distributed.

Another aspect of fixed costs is in order to create a regional you need a critical mass of teams to support the regional. You are not going to create a regional that has only 5 teams. The fixed costs are prohibitive. But you have to create regionals to reduce logistical costs and make the program more available. An interesting problem currently is there is a lot of growth around Washington DC/Mid-Atlantic area. The Virginia event is basically overloaded. The NC/RTP area is under served and there is no regional in NC and not enough teams in NC. It is logical that NC create an event so Virginia doesn't explode like a steam boiler. But we need some teams in NC.

Variable costs -
For example if FIRST (or their agent has to buy parts to distribute, the transaction costs goes down with increasing volume. Again the savings are passed on. The whole parts acquisition/distribution process is a very significant cost. To learn more study industrial engineering and "supply chain".

Logistical costs -
The more the programs grow, the more regionals there are. More regionals means less distance a team travels to their event. This cost is mainly for variable costs like fuel. Whereas hotels and meals tend to be fixed cost, whether you travel 1 mile or 10,000 miles.

There are plenty of teams that struggle to fund and attend one regional. The bulk of their costs go to FIRST and building the robot. There are some teams that attend 2 or 3 or possibly more regionals and their cost is mostly travel and lodging/food, etc. The only thing FIRST can do there about that is create a million regionals to eliminate overnight trips.

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I didn't feel critisized ;), but when you make statements like "Smart teams do 'x'" then you are implying that teams that dont do 'x' are not smart. Sometimes situations will prevent teams from following your suggestions.

I would also caution you about using definitives like ALWAYS and NEVER, as you do not know all the situations, everywhere.

"Pork" projects (as you call them) are far more typical of large government than of small government, because it's much more easily hid in the budget.

Budgets are not easy. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made between competing worthy projects. Even public money does not grow on trees (it comes from the taxpayer base, which may not know of, or care for, FIRST).

All I'm saying is, never assume that you are entitled to support from the public.

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As I recall, there was a price increase for the kit, regionals and/or Championships a while back. There has not been an increase this year. If team costs are going up, it's because teams are voluntarily increasing their costs - going to an extra regional or a regional that has higher travel costs, or buying that latest greatest piece of hardware for the robot. Teams aren't going bust because costs are going up.

The problem many teams have is on the support and funding side. Mentors burn out and have to cut back, and there's no one to keep the program going at the same level. Sponsors are lost, maybe they have to cut back or maybe they've even gone bankrupt themselves. The school district can't fund the team in the same way it did before because cuts have to be made across the board - it's a choice between funding robotics or buying textbooks. Teams may have been set up depending on grant money, and now the grant source has either dried up or the team is no longer eligible for a renewal.

The only way teams have to combat this is to work it out for themselves. They can't blame FIRST. The students have to go out and beat the bushes to find more sponsors, new mentors, better parent support, convince other government officials that the program is important to fund. The students must make it apparent that the program is important to them, and show that by their efforts. It won't guarantee success, some teams will still fold, but it is the only way for teams to continue.

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nothing is ever entitled to funding. Are road and hospitals entitled to funding? They are not, unless the community makes it a priority. Build your grassroots support and FIRST will become a priority for you local government body and school board as well. If the taxpayers in your community do not know of, or care for, FIRST, it is your job to show them what you do and educate them.

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Simply in a 2 cents form of a reply

I'm just so....reassured of the "FIRST community" after reading through this thread, as even as we debate the imperfections of our society and those consequences that fall in our lives and strongly affect this program...there is still humility, there is still the spirit of FIRST, even as during our offseason lives we still strive to keep this program as good as we can get it, that even if the program isn't perfect, that we strive for perfection, and fairness, and that the initial reasons for this program are still here, sure things change, the world changes, such is life, as long as the FIRST community keeps fighting for itself....I do not see FIRST going off the deep end.

Sure, it may not how be how it was in the beginning, my brother and sister have both been in the program for 4 years each, it was a much different program, and heavily funded sponsors do have a large advantage, but in the end, I still see teams that come in last place having a great time, learning priceless amounts of experience, and still being inspired and recognizing science and technology.

hope this wasn't too much of a tangent reply...

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As a member of a team that did finish dead last in a 62 team competition and not get selected to the eliminations, the best I can say for that year (in terms of fun) is "meh".

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And yet you still come back... sounds like FIRST is succeeding whether you like it or not.

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Team 375 has been attending Championships for 3 years now. We have not been drafted in those three years to continue in eliminations. I can honestly say that between the Aim High season and the Rack N' Roll season there was a *huge* difference in the amount of fun that I had and the level of enjoyment of the team in general. When you stop concentrating on the results and start concentrating on the atmosphere and the experience the trip takes on a carefree feel that allows you to have a great time despite your success on the field. Take the time to meet new people from other teams, perhaps even cheer on their alliance during eliminations. Cheer on your division on Einstein. Hang out with other teams after the work day in the pits and on the field. It all works out amazingly at the end.

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I don't think I'm an appropriate example for basing that assumption, seeing as I've been exposed to FIRST since I was a child and a participant on a team that typically didn't finish that low. It was beyond just a poor performance, our robot broke in a fashion we couldn't repair at competition, and we sat there immobile for almost the whole weekend while the machine shop fixed the part. It wasn't fun at all.
116 isn't a perpetual bottom feeder though, and 116 made the semi-final at the same regional the very next year. Success is neither the norm nor totally unknown to the team. But for some teams, however, that is not the case. The annually uncompetitive teams tend to be the ones that fade away much more frequently than the power houses. While there are exceptions to this, as with any generalization, I challenge anyone to provide significant evidence to disprove this point. You don't see teams like 67, 71, 111, 233, 254, 469, or 1114 going anywhere anytime soon. And part of their continuous success is derived from their sponsors, who allow them much greater amounts of stability than a majority of teams, both in terms of mentors and funding.
I'm not worried about the teams with consistent support, like 116, who may occasionally fall to the bottom. I'm worried about the teams who struggle for survival each year, and when they don't do well, they might not be able to find the support, from themselves or others, to return the next year.

I know I'm not, and I don't think anyone else is either, saying that FIRST is totally broken. I'm saying that there are some issues, particularly in concern to team retention, that need to be examined. Every time a new complaint comes up you can't brush it aside by looking at a success, especially when the complaints are far from isolated. When veteran teams like 157 have issues, or when teams who have been around for ages like 225 and 388 fold, there is a serious problem. Especially when FIRST's low-cost alternative, FTC, has a very uncertain future. When a team is in short supply of money, I cannot suggest to them with a clean conscious purchasing the quantity of Vex parts and field accessories needed to create a competitive FTC team knowing that FTC might not use the Vex platform next year. There are issues that need to be addressed, and I'm glad to hear that they aren't be ignored by FIRST (ie the President's circle). But for those who claim that FIRST is succeeding so let's continue blindly along, a reality check may soon be in store.

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Well, Team 964 didn't finish last, but we certainly weren't the team with the least amount of funds. We had fun, sure our robot broke down during the last round and we had to borrow an idea for wheel traction. Bottom line, let this stuff get untangled by those who are meant to deal with it. If a team is pulling out, it may be financial, it may be support, it may be lack of interest. Who knows.

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no one said that we should continue blindly along, all that was said was that as long as we are doing what we're doing now (which is working on trying to fix problems) I do not see FIRST falling apart

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I have skimmed through this long thread, and have some thoughts:

-Diversification of funding is key to survival of a team. I would seek support from the government, but if received, not to be depended on considering how rapid the political landscape can change.

-FIRSTs expansion is definitely a double-edged sword. Growth to spread the message is marvelous, but there are ailing older teams as well that could face even more trouble if possible sponsors and funding are taken up and stretched by the new teams. Money is not something that grows on trees for certain.
(Edit: However, if FIRST were to take FRC and FTC, and somehow merge the two into a mid-sized robotics competition format (thinking vex is small, FRC is large, F?? would be the combination of the two... :rolleyes: ), we might have a survival plan)

-School support of programs is great, so long there is not any surrounding politics to hurt it. Here in the Willow Run area, politics almost KO'd Team (66) existence this year due to an imposed contract on teachers. The teachers in response decided to drop their extracurriculars (except the normal sports... [where's the emoticon for hmph!]). I would cite an article from the Ann Arbor News explaining this but Mlive.com has only a 14 day archive when the article was run in early September. Fortunately, GM is keeping the team afloat and from what I have heard and operations are going on as usual, recruitment is pretty good for the year too (I love GM for that, very very much). :cool:

Other than that, I would attribute rising costs to the current state of the economy (it isnt bad but it isnt too great either). Just do what you can to survive, be ambitious if you have great ambitions,

... and make sure you have a whole lotta fun while doing it. ;)

Edit: Lastly, a bit about inspiring, the key of FIRST's success. For my 4 years of high school I mentored the Lego League at Willow Run Middle School. That was to make a long story short the most difficult task I have ever brought upon myself and some of my Team 66 teammates. Due to district problems my senior year, the team did not start until late September. Competition was rough, placing 22nd out of 24th, and there were not many happy faces on the team heading home. However, several parents were remarking how their kids were interested in the robotics kit, and I gave them information on how to get it, etc.

Well, March came along with the Great Lakes Regional. We had invited district schools to the regional to watch, along with the FLL team. When I came to them they were so happy, and so was I to see them quite alright after a horrible experience in November. The fact they welcomed me still after all of the FLL season was the biggest expression of appreciation and the best return for my efforts ever. I didnt need any one of them to say 'thanks' or anything, I just knew they appreciated what I did. They also had a lot of fun at GLR too.

Just remember, a spark of inspiration can produce a lifetime of success. FIRST fosters that quite well, no matter what the condition.

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Hey I'm not gonna bash you on this statement at all. Winning is fun, if it wasn't, there would be no point to any competition. I've been on both sides, there have been competitions where I couldn't wait for it to end just so I could go home because everything is piling against you and nothing is working. On the flip side, I have heard We Are The Champions and walked away on top of the world. And I have to say, those days where you are just beating yourself, and smacking your head against the wall, and you just wish the robot would catch fire so you could go home, make the top of the mountain that much sweeter. I wish everyone can experiance both, because you will never feel more satisfied.

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I've never quite heard it put this way before but I know exactly what you're saying - :)

Re: The Sad truth
 

What a wonderful tangent this thread has taken.

Entering our fourth season, we have certainly improved. We understand and strategize games better, build more complete robots, and have experienced team growth and maturity.
However, we have not yet been truly competitive. While it hurts to watch the alliance pairings and awards ceremonies only to come out empty-handed, it only makes us hungrier.

I can safely predict that when we get picked in the regional alliance selection, we'll throw a bigger party and celebrate louder than some teams do when they win the Championships.

Re: The Sad truth
 

I notice, scanning through this thread, that people have brought up many reasons for people quiting. Reasons like cost, lack of interest, etc. Another point has been brought up that Dean's goal was to put FIRST into every school.

I would like to bring up one other point. Everyone knows that FIRST stands For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology, but I haven't seen someone mention this. No matter who is involved in FIRST, no matter what happens to them, whether they quit because of family issues, because they have a lack of interest or because of anything else, it is rare for FIRST to not full-fill its goal. Every person who interacts with FIRST will always come out with greater knowledge, greater respect, and greater inspiration for science and technology. That is what FIRST is truly about.

So, as people see others quiting for all of their different reasons, and, though it is truly sad to see them go, it is also great to see them have the chance to participate in such an event as FIRST.

If we could keep all of the teams alive and well, and if we could keep every member involved and keep expanding, that would be great. But it is like the circle of life, where nothing is perfect. As new teams and members come into FIRST, other will leave. It is part of this crazy world we live in, where we will never be able to fully control anything and where we can only go with the flow that life drives us in.

I hope I didn't bring anyone down with that last statement of mine.

Re: The Sad truth
 

One thing that I think has been surfacing for some time and is now coming into full view as evidenced in some of our posts - is retention of some of our veteran teams and our teams with a couple of years under their belt. We are seeing that this needs to be addressed. If a team is struggling to stay afloat and just can't manage it due to a drop in sponsorship or a change in mentorship or school support, there are ways to help the team. Maybe some of these ways have been defined/clarified. Maybe many ways have yet to be developed/explored. It is inevitable that FIRST will continue to develop over time and mentors/teachers will retire. Students will become mentors - Businesses will develop from within and without. While the program is still relatively young, it is good that we are questioning as we struggle with these issues. As we question, we can strive to develop and implement ideas in areas that will make the program stronger, using the ever expanding experiences/resources within the teams to help strengthen it - not weaken. My thinking is that the President's Circle is a great start with exploring some of this. And don't forget, with each passing incredible year, we continue to add the wisdom and knowledge of our growing circle of Woodie Flowers Award winners and our Hall of Fame teams to this effort. They are invaluable to us.

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What FIRST is now beginning to see (although I believe it's been going on all the time) is the effects of competitive darwinism. Teams are increasingly finding that they need to be adabpable not only on the field of play, but in the world of business, finance, worker retention, and sales.

The world FIRST is in is changing. FIRST needs to look at team retention and decide if it wants to be darwinian (capitalistic) or communal (socialistic) in it's plan for retaining teams.

If it chooses to remain capitalistic, then to retain teams FIRST needs to show to newer (and struggling) teams how the self-sufficiant teams are doing it.

If it chooses to be socialistic, then it must create a central fund that can support teams in need.

Sooner or later the choice will need to be made ... or we will continue to see teams fail.

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After being on a team who's budget didn't get approved until a week before registration I have developed a unique opinion on the matter. Many people fail to blame themselves in situations like this. Yes it is true that FIRST isn't perfect and they could improve on some things but the same is true for us. Many teams who have money issues should sometimes blame themselves. In my teams case no one really takes the fundraising seriously many are like well i sell a cheesecake here or a dinner ticket there but no one really has the drive to go out and fundraise. So our money issue was brought on by ourselves and because of our sub-par fundraising attempts our robot may not be the greatest and we may not enter the 3rd event like we wanted but I do blame FIRST for this fact. In general the people at FIRST try to keep the costs fair to teams they set prices and we must deal with them and if the prices for events haven't changed in a while we really can't complain because we knew what we were getting into when we signed up.

Also isn't engineering about doing something to the best of your abilities and using what you have. Perhaps we need to go back to a minimalist perspective. Sure 10+ wheel drives are nice but do we really need them, and that 3rd motor is great but is it a necessity, and do we really need to purple anodize our whole robot. These are the questions we must ask of ourselves. Sometimes if we spent just a bit less on extra stuff on our robots then maybe teams will have the extra money for that 3rd competition or they can ask for a little less from there students and schools. Maybe we should all look at the older robots and see what people did before 2 speed transmission and light sensing cameras. These robots will tell us that with just a bit more time and thought we can do the same for less.

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I would suggest one idea to help ensure team survival is to form an alliance with as many other teams in your geographic area as you can. Think of it as President's Circle Lite. While the FIRST President's Circle initiative would (presumably) seek to develop solutions that would fit for all FIRST teams in all regions coming from all kinds of educational and social and economic backgrounds, I think you could also apply the same collaborative brainstorming model to an alliance of teams within your own region, attempting to share experiences and generate additional ideas that will solve unique challenges related to your region's specific makeup.

Locally, four FIRST teams spread out over two counties formed the Northeast Ohio FIRST Robotics Alliance (NEOFRA) during the summer. In the past, our teams have worked together here and there and have extended assistance to each other, but we've never really focused on banding together and forming a long-term, year-round partnership until now.

We are fortunate to have a very diverse mix of teams in this partnership. There's the veteran, historically resource-laden team in 48 who depends upon Delphi and the school district as their primary funding sponsors. We have never been a huge fundraising team (although the need for this has increased over recent years as funding levels have declined), but we have learned over the years how to better stretch our resources out for maximum benefit. We're still learning. There's also a veteran team in 379 who doesn't have the luxury of a single large corporate sponsorship. Because of this, they've learned to become tireless, creative, and efficient fundraisers to generate the majority of the funds needed to operate their team. There's a veteran team in 276 who's had their share of ups and downs over the years, but has learned how to survive even during even the roughest of times, and there's a one year team in 2010 who just spent the 2007 season learning how to successfully start up and stabilize the funding and operations of a brand new rookie team.

NEOFRA is not simply a technical collaboration - we share ideas that touch upon all aspects of our teams ranging from the obvious technical topics, to fundraising and promotions, to community outreach, to holding shared FIRST classes, to seeking combined savings on travel arrangements, to FLL, to ...., to .... By combining forces and sharing our strengths with fellow alliance teams, we seek to eliminate our team weaknesses. We seek to not only save money, but save time and reduce duplicated efforts. Separately, our mentorship bases may have declined over the years, but by pooling our mentor resources together, we can maximize the efficiency of those who remain while simultaneously extending our reach to more students.

Even though our alliance is still in its infant stages, we are hopeful our NEOFRA partnership will further insulate ourselves from unthinkable team shutdowns in the event the unexpected occurs, and we also believe this organization is now more empowered to seek out, start up, and guide new rookie teams through their initial year of existence. Our collective experiences will make it so much easier to reach out to government officials, new sponsors, and schools that it ever was when we were working separately. It's always easier to do [Dean's] homework when you "study" together instead of going at it alone. :)

I guess the moral of the story is - if you feel like all is lost and there's nowhere else to turn, or even if you are still a stable team but fear the unexpected, don't be afraid to reach out and form strong connections with other schools and teams in your area. If you don't have any teams in your immediate area, expand your search until you find the help you need. See if you can discover ways in which you can help each other survive and ultimately grow. Unite to form a strong core center of expertise in your region and who knows? Maybe that central seed you plant together will blossom into further team expansion all around you? Is this an uber-altruistic thought? Yes, but this kind of dream will never happen unless you give it a try.

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The answer is YES it MUST be PURPLE. And our hair too! It's about selling an image to our sponsors. The leader firmly believed it our rookie season and after seeing its power last season I'm all for it, even though I'm usually not the kind of person that jumps through hoops like that. Go figure we won 2006 Rookie All-Stars in Atlanta.

Imagery is an award at the competitions, but it's often not ramped up like the others. If you don't know how to sell your robotics program to the community (eventually earning you a budget), perhaps you could start by coming up with some creative ways via imagery. Even though we engineers believe 42 is the answer to life and ignore that thing called "psychology", without someone to do all of these non-engineering things it would be nearly impossible to do our engineering things. Some of us simply lack the sociological programming (like me) to be able to really convince others our endeavors are needed ... well, maybe it's just that some people are better than others at it. If you're already doing your best each year, then keep at it.

Take as an example Einstein in his early years -- whacky hair, probably talked 95 miles/minute. How do you think he got people to even take a look at his first papers on theory? He probably used the 10-ft elevator on his 2007 FRC robot to get high school football film at angles the news crews only wished they could get.


you can't possibly think I meant for you to take that last sentence literally...though at first glance it doesn't seem like a bad idea

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...I like purple. :)

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You forgot National Underwater Robotics Challenge
www.h2orobots.org

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Have you priced a football team.......
How about the basketball team.......
Lets talk really easy, how about cross country......
The coach makes about 4-5k alone let alone the buses, uniforms, entry fees, awards, and meals. That could easily be 10k. and every school has how many teams? Its not that we don't have the money, its what do you want to spend the money on.

Just my input as a former coach. By the way, football can spend 10k in one to two games. Head coach, assist coaches, trainers, doctor, school administration, news paper personnel, cheer leader coaches, grounds keepers, maintenance men, bus drivers, buses, etc... yes they make money, but nothing compared to what they spend. Schools don't blink at spending here!

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Right on Brother!!

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This is part of the paradigm that FIRST teams need to change, get FIRST to be accepted into the schools so they too can follow the sports model that exists in schools today. We can only do this be continuing to grow until we cannot be ignored, then no FIRST team at any school will be ignored.

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YES!

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Yes the school boards are an excellent place to start changing the paradigm!

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You go girl! We keep fighting here in AZ, We just gave a presentation to the school board where we should them how over the last 6 years there have been over 3 million dollars in scholarships awarded to students at our school because of FIRST. No one has mentioned that aspect in this thread. Also at the end of our presentation, our team challenged the board to lead the state and start funding robotics "coaches" like they do athletic coaches, no more, no less. If we don't see results, we will do it again! Eventually they will get the message. By the way, our principal got reprimanded for letting us present to the board, with that zinger at the end.

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Ok! Now I am caught up on this thread....Whew!!!!!

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well i would also agree with alot of things posted in this thread,

and one thing about FIRST is the competetive darwinism.

the survival of the fittest.

and teams must realize that even though FIRST is about engineering, it is also important for team members to learn about business and financing.

we have basically done that as a team this year, it is completely student run. our teacher mentors are pretty much there to ask questions to and sign checks. they have pushed us into having our own financig team who look at all of our expences, our funding from sponsors, and how much we need to spend on various competitions and parts.

we also have a public relations group who deal with sponsors and trying to get funding from the government and other groups.

so what im basically trying to say is that i think that teams should also teach the students about things such as how to deal with their finances, how to write a decent letter to a respectable company or government official.

learning things like that is all part of the FIRST experience. (in my eyes at least)

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I agree that there is far more to learn from a FIRST team than how to build a robot, however, i don't agree with this "survival of the fittest" rationale. Every school had a football team. no one has ever said, "man, there are already 3 football teams in the county, there just isn't enough funding for another one."
We need to start thinking that every student deserves to have a FIRST team at their school. again, this will take a shift from private funding to public funding.

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My team (1501) doesn't go through the school system at all. We are purely 4-H based. That means that we don't really get any private funding. Most of our funds come from public companies and businesses.

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its not an opinion have you listened to Dean at all!!!

he always says that this is about getting kids up and motivated to become
engineers, and to think outside the box... Yes FRC is the funnest program I've been apart of... but down to the nuts and bolts of it its all about education and moving forward in technology