**FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Greetings Teams:

FRC staff and volunteers are reviewing potential improvements to the practice day schedule. We would like to increase the throughput of teams practicing. Some teams find that working on their robot is more valuable than practicing. That leads to empty spots on the field and incomplete practice matches.

Please review the three options described below and detailed in the pdf file attached to the thread on the FIRST Forum. Review them with your team and vote for your preferred format. In order to vote, you must log in using your 2007 Q & A forum account and vote only once per team. Once your team has voted, you cannot change your vote. The forum will close on November 12, 2007 at 12:59pm EST.

Option 1: Status Quo
For details of how practice matches have been run in the past, please refer to Section 9.2.1 in the 2007 FRC Game Manual (FRC Game Manual website)
Option 2: Open Practice Followed by Option 3
There is no practice schedule for the first third of the day (open practice matches)
Teams line up and practice on a "first come first serve" basis
Teams may not occupy more than one spot in line or on the field
Open practice matches are one match only (less than five minutes total)
Open practice matches are for the first 1/3 of the day, Option 3 for the remaining 2/3 of the day
Option 3: Status Quo with Filler Line
Empty slots are filled, as needed, by teams who are ready to practice
Practice schedules are generated as before, w/ 10 minute practice match length
Filler line is limited to ~6 robots (dependent on venue space), additional teams must keep an eye on the line and line up when the last spot opens up
In order to wait in the filler line, you must have your robot and may not work on it while in line.
Hint: think about the singles line at the ski lift.
Thank you for your time and your input.

Go Teams!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

And im gonna ahve to go wiht option 3.
Option is obvioulsy off.
Option 3 seems more challanging, and fun. 10 minutes games are awesome!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like option two a lot, but I think it might work poorly for larger regionals; hence, I would go with three.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like option two. It is simpler and will allow for us to jump in when ever we get a modification of our robot finished. We won't have to have one person to keep track of the field. We really can't afford to have a person dedicated to such a trivial task. We are a small team and need every member available. However, I do like the idea of changing it a little. We only really made it to half of our practice matches last year due to design issues.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 3 seems to the the fairest solution. Every team has the same number of minimum matches and if they want more they can wait in line for it.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I'd vote for Option 3 with one modification: to enter the Filler Line your robot must have completed inspection and received its sticker.

I strongly dislike Option 2 because of the traffic flow problem it would create at many regional venues.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like Option 3. I've seen forms of it work at off-seasons and everyone seems to like it.
While on the subject of practice matches, I'd also like FIRST to allow them to actually be practice. If a robot gets stuck, breaks, needs adjusting, etc. while on the field, a team member or two should be allowed to go on the field briefly to aid the robot, as long as its safe to do so.
Numerous times I've seen team members stopped from going on the field when it was clearly safe to do so.
Basically, don't run practice matches like normal matches. Give teams more freedom on the field.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 3 seems the best, but I'd really like to vote for a modification to it. Specifically, teams would be scheduled for n practices originally. Teams would be limited to n + x total practices, where x is determined based on regional team load etc. Once the team has reached n+x practices, the rest of their scheduled practices are mandatory byes.

The basic idea would be that teams fixing things etc would be missing matches early in the day, and at the end of the day everyone would be working, so there would be many many fewer missed practices. So the teams that were fixing things wouldn't really get much chance to make up for time they missed in the morning. By limiting the number of practices for teams that were getting extra practice in the morning, more spots would open up in the afternoon when the teams donating their morning spots would need them.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 2 seems to be the best of both worlds to me. Heck, at our regional last year there were only 8 or 9 teams ready to role by the end of Thursday anyway. Everyone else was hard at work all day in the pits and most of the practice matches were empty or at most had only one or two robots on the field a lot of the time. It was very frustrating wanting to be on the practice field and having to wait until our next slot. Whatever is decided I am really encouraged that FIRST is looking into ways to make better use of the practice times on Thursday.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Someone should move this to the general forum with a poll for just the 3 options with no modifications or changes to them. That way more people can see this and comment on it.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option three sounds good. It would make the matches more of a practice than it has been in the past.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 3 is the best by far. I don't like option 2 because for one, it will be very messy and unorganized, and two, it will not get the rookies "in gear" for the actual matches the next day.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I could see option 2 working better for the later week regional competitions when teams have competed once or twice. For the first few weeks I would only schedule 1/2 day open practice & 1/2 day scheduled practice. I don't think there should be any qualification on robot inspection. Even the most organized teams at their first regional take at least an hour to get everything checked off.

I do like the fact that FIRST recognizes that there could be a better way.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

#3 looks good but I agree that any team in the line in the afternoon must have passed inspection. The inspectors have a hard enough time now. If teams can line up with their robot to play or get inspected, guess what doesn't get done till last minute? :confused:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like #3 but (not sure if anybody mentioned it) will batteries last the whole 10mins.:confused:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I agree 100%, I know that our team often skips practice matches to get the robot inspected.

As a note option 3 does work well, last year at Boston their wasn't an actual line but the queuing people filled most of the after noon matches. There was opportunity for a lot of teams to get 2 or 3 extra matches especially since there were so many rookies who took a while to get inspected and ready for the inspection.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

For reference:
I'm assuming that the "10 minutes" will similarly be split up into two separate match periods, if Option #3 were to be implemented. Thus, batteries can be changed between the two runs during the time for field reset.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I prefer Option 3, but let's suppose that you must have at least started the inspection process to enter the line after lunch. To apply a standard to "started", we'll say the robot has been sized and weighed, and has four valid sets of team numbers on the robot.

In my experience as an inspector, I've found that most of the teams who start the inspection process tend to keep plowing through it until either there is a distraction (a need to get out to practice, pit closing, etc.) or a snag (oh crud, we have more sharp edges than a Ginsu knife). If we force them to start the process, they'll generally keep going for as long as they can. At the same time, you won't block teams who are desperate for field time to tune their robots from getting that time, particularly if that field time results in changes over the day that call for several reinspections.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I'll vote for that!!! I know of one team in particular that is notorious for waiting until the last minute to get inspected even when the robot is ready to run right out of the box. One of the reasons is there is no advantage to getting inspected while the field is open. So they keep putting it off as long as possible. But for a little extra practice time ...

I also like that it applies only to those looking for extra time. So everybody still gets the X matches they are intitled to, even if they are still working Inspection Issues.

The thought of teams racing to get in the inspection line when the Pits open brings tears to my eyes (sniff). It might even provide incentive to be sure things like team numbers are taken care of in advance. (sniff)

It is almost too much to contemplate, great idea Richard!

ChrisH

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I think I like Option 3 the best, it creates more opportunities for teams to practice than the current set up and seems logistically easier than option 2. I like the "must be inspected" rule for the filler line as well.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I think that is the original point -- FIRST has set up a poll and a place to comment. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=7893

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 3 sounds the best to me too, with the additional inspection requirement.

Quick question...I'm the alternate contact for our team, and I'm trying to vote on the FIRST Forum, but I don't remember my 2007 Q&A Password. Last season, it was on the right side of the TIMS Team Info Page, but it doesn't seem to be there anymore, does anyone know where I can find this?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

To those who are requesting that teams be required to be inspected before practicing: I see your point but this rule should not be in effect right away. Perhaps, if this becomes a rule, it should apply after 2pm or so.

My reasoning is this: I don't have hard evidence, but I suspect that the majority of missed matches occur early in the day (teams not ready or arriving late, etc). Obviously this is also the time when few, if any, teams are inspected. If this rule was in effect all day, then it's quite likely that open practice slots would go unfilled, and that's simply a waste.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Dave, the suggestion is not that teams be required to be inspected before practicing. (Although that requirement can be imposed at the discretion of the lead robot inspector: see <R112> on p. 29 of the 2007 FRC Manual.)

The suggestion was that teams be required to be inspected before entering the Fill Line as described in Option 3 above. I see no problem with practicing before completing inspection unless the robot is unsafe, and then I would apply the discretion provided by R112. Within the constraints of safety and a fair schedule, I think teams should get as much practice time as they can -- even if that delays inspection. But teams seeking to get additional practice time by entering the Fill Line should not be permitted to do so by delaying their robot's inspection.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Dave,

Likewise, I have no hard evidence but wonder why "few, if any, teams are inspected"? IMHO, many teams would be able to go through inspection early on Thursday and do not because there is no incentive to do so.

While I agree it is a shame to waste practice time, we are not talking about denying anyone their scheduled time here. If, indeed, "few, if any, teams are inspected" they should be working on their robots, not waiting like geeky vultures in a queue hoping that another less fortunate team (one whose robot is not working) does not show. At events where most robots are working enough to practice, the wait in that queue could be very long indeed.

There is no perfect answer here. At "younger" events (dominated by rookie teams) your proposal has more merit than at "older" events (dominated by veterans). As FIRST continues to grow, the percentage of veteran teams should increase...

If we can convince teams to complete inspection early, it will help the inspectors to identify teams in trouble and render assistance.

Also, if a team has passed inspection and in queued for extra practice, no work is being done on the robot. This increases a pool of pit savvy people who can be easily identified by the inspection crew and could be encouraged to help out teams having difficulties.

JMHO.

Mike

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I understood your suggestion the first time, and my response stands. Incidentally, I believe you have misrepresented R112. R112, as I read it, says that IF a robot is inspected and fails, THEN the lead inspector, at his or her discretion, can allow/disallow the robot from practicing (presumably with a reason such as safety, not just because they felt like it). It does not say that the lead inspector can dictate that teams must be inspected before practicing. In fact, there is another rule (3.5.2) stating the opposite: "Teams may practice on the first day of the event without completing the inspection process, however, if field personnel deem a robot unsafe, it will not be allowed to practice until the unsafe condition is fixed." So, an un-inspected robot can be prohibited from practicing if the field personnel consider it unsafe, which makes sense of course. Neither of these two rules give the lead inspector the right to impose a general rule require that teams be inspected before practicing (again, this is as I read it).
I assumed someone would ask this. I know few teams are inspected early on Thursday, but I haven't necessarily noticed many teams who are actually ready for inspection. What I usually see is that just about everyone is working on, tweaking, etc. their robots, and that the vast majority of teams just aren't ready for inspection. Is there anything wrong with that? Personally, I don't think so - there's no rule saying you must arrive at an event prepared to be inspected.
Mike, I know that getting teams inspected early is a hot topic among inspectors. However, I don't see why we need to add additional punishment to teams who are not. There are many reasons that a team may not be ready to be inspected early in the day, including:

- Practice matches are the first chance to test out on a real field, revealing what they need to change
- Known to be overweight
- Still working out the bugs in the <fill in robot appendage here>
- Had to disassemble part of the robot to fit in the crate, and now it needs to be put back together
- Repairing damage that occurred during shipping
- Repairing damage that occurred at a previous competition

All of these things are legitimate (and legal) activities for practice day. For several of the reasons above, giving a team a chance at an earlier practice (via fill-in) may actually get them ready for inspection sooner. Are teams taking a risk by being inspected late? Absolutely: there's already a rule in place stating that a team must be inspected before competing in qualification matches. It seems, to me, that saying "You can't fill in a spot in practice match #1 because you're not inspected" is an attempt to change the nature of practice day. To me, a rule like this is saying "You need to show up ready to inspect, and if you don't then you'll be punished by not being allowed to fill in." I guess my point is that a team which has a status of "un-inspected" on practice day, while greatly hated by the inspectors, is not in any way a rules violation, so this seems like an effort to change that.

Theoretically, if every team showed up at a competition and was ready to be inspected (and had to be inspected before being a fill-in team), what would happen? I highly doubt even the most experienced inspecting crew would be able to get them all checked off before practice rounds began.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like option 3. I think it's the best. If you have a working robot and stand in line, you can get more driver practice; or if you have to build in the first half and then get in fix then you can make up for the practice you miss in the morning by standing in line and waiting for a open spot.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

We may have to agree to disagree about R112. I think your reading above relies on assumptions not supported by the text of the rule: (emphasis mine)
The lead inspector's discretionary authority (to prevent a team from practicing before their robot is inspected) is stated in a postive way that I support -- the language is biased in favor of practice time, and that implies to me that the lead inspector should only exercise the stated discretionary authority when there is a clear reason to do so. Like safety.As I read it, 3.5.2 is not a rule, it is part of a summary of what to expect at the event:The lead robot inspector is one of a team of key volunteers that share responsibility for the smooth, safe operation of the event. Key field personnel (referenced in 3.5.2) who are responsible for identifying unsafe robots include the Field Supervisor, Head Referee, IFI representative, FIRST Technical Advisor, and Event Manager -- and any of these can be advised by other persons present on the field. At many events these key field personnel rely on the lead robot inspector and his/her team of inspectors to alert them to potential safety risks posed by a particular robot. At events where I have served as lead robot inspector or as FIRST Technical Advisor there has been very close communication between field personnel and robot inspectors regarding safety.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

The last sentence is only part of the rule and shouldn't be read by itself, but in the context of the whole rule. The overall rule starts by saying "At inspection..." meaning this rule applies at inspection time. It refers to noncompliance resulting in the disqualification of "the ROBOT" - noncompliance would be determined at inspection time. The final sentence says the lead inspector may allow "the ROBOT" (use of the indicates it is the same robot which was in noncompliance, from the previous sentence) to compete anyway.

If you only read the last sentence alone, I could understand your interpretation. The two preceding sentences, however, make it clear that this rule applies at the time the robot is inspected, not before.

I don't disagree that a lead inspector (or any inspector, for that matter) can prohibit a robot from practicing if something is observed to be unsafe. Originally, you said: "Dave, the suggestion is not that teams be required to be inspected before practicing. (Although that requirement can be imposed at the discretion of the lead robot inspector..)" Did I misunderstand that comment? I interpreted it as meaning you thought a lead inspector could impose a general rule that teams could not practice until inspected, and that this could be applied to all teams at an event, without a specific safety concern in mind. Just to be clear, do you think a lead inspector has the authority to declare that all teams at an event must pass inspection before competing in any practice matches?

Oh, and since I've managed to drag this off-topic, I'll try to repent by saying that I think (3) is the best choice. I think (2) would be chaos (think of a practice field at a regional towards the end of Thursday - 20 teams all wanting to use it and mobbed together, waiting for a spot).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

No, I don't think a lead robot inspector has the authority to impose a blanket requirement that all teams at an event must complete inspection before participating in practice matches.

However, he/she does have discretion to prevent any robot that he/she deems unsafe from being used in practice matches, under my reading of <R112>. How that discretion should be exercised is open to interpretation, and that discretion is also subject to review and possible overturn by others at the event as prescribed by the Decision Authority Matrix that FIRST provides.

One possible method for unbiased exercise of this authority is the requirement, used at several past events, that all teams complete a limited subset of the complete inspection checklist items, selected based on their relationship to safety, before participating in practice matches. That method is neither required nor prohibited by prior year FRC Manuals. Whether it is used at a particular event has been determined by the key volunteer team and FIRST staff at that event.

As to applicability of <R112> (or any other rule) only at inspection time, my view is that any time is inspection time. Any time that he/she suspects a safety related problem with any robot, any of several key volunteers and FIRST staff members present at the event can require inspection or re-inspection of that robot.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I think we're basically in agreement then. I was concerned that you were implying that a lead inspector could decide to mandate that all teams in attendance must pass inspection (full inspection, not just safety stuff) before practicing.

I still don't like the idea of punishing teams who don't inspect early by not allowing them to be fill-ins, though, because that is essentially punishing them for something that is not against the rules. I'd prefer to handle that a little more informally (such as by approaching teams in the queue for fill-in who aren't inspected and reminding them, again, that if they aren't inspected by Friday morning they can't compete, and that if everyone waits until the last minute to get inspected then the inspectors aren't liable if they can't get them all done). Frequent reminders via the pit announcer (annoying as that can be) and the standard, unsolicited visit by robot inspectors seems good enough for me - people on these teams are old enough to make their own time management decisions, and if they choose poorly then they'll miss out on their first qualification match and will likely learn something in the process (and not let that happen again).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I see the reasoning behind this idea, Say teams are scheduled for 7 matches, but a max of 8 for the entire day is allowed. The team has their robot ready to go at the beginning of the day can fill early spots, a couple of their own, and theoretically be finished for the day by lunch time. After lunch, their scheduled matches become byes and teams that were not ready to go at the beginning of they day fill in the match from the filler line. This gives a better chance every team gets a near equal amount of practice without one team getting 10 matches, while another team only could make it to their last 2 scheduled matches.

However. I am in the belief that a team that has their robot best ready to go in the beginning of the morning made the best use of their six weeks. This time management skill should be rewarded by FIRST by receiving extra practice matches.

Pro to your suggestion: Option 2 could possibly be discrimination toward teams that are attending multiple regionals, say by their third regional they have all of the bugs worked out, while this same regional is another teams only regional.

I'm still in the catagory to give teams as many practices as possible. If they get out of a match and notice that the line is open for another team, they should be allowed to get back in line as many times as they wish. Great job for building a reliable robot...Only if Richard's suggestion is implemented and they have already passed inspection.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I'm going to go option 3, with inspection. I'm not going to say that passing should be required, but inspection must be started or at least attempted. An indicator would be needed to show which robots have started/attempted to start and which have not, though. (Reason: Why make robots wait if the delay in starting inspection is not their fault?)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Interesting... I might say that a team who shows up completely ready to go has squandered the last few hours they had to work on their robot... :p

Our team, for instance, nearly always shows up ready for practice, but not ready to inspect. We often still have to put finishing touches on, like installing bumpers, signage, drilling speed holes, etc. Why waste time during the build season doing these things if I can do them on practice day (and still be able to practice)?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

My suggestion was simply to even things out slightly. I've seen more than a few posters in this thread suggesting that option 3 will let teams that are ready get extra practice in the mornings, and the morning teams will get to make up for lost time in the afternoon, but that's simply not going to be the case, since there's going to be a flood of teams in the Fill Line in the afternoon. I understand the sentiment for rewarding teams that "made the most of their six weeks", but I don't entirely agree with it. Especially because some of those teams will inevitably be teams with little or no offense capabilities who are finished and ready to practice simply because there's not much to their robot but defense. The sad thing is that any team that's missing tons of matches in the morning will really, really need extra matches in the afternoon, but they're just not going to be there. The only real way for this to work out in favor of teams missing matches in the morning is if the other teams either voluntarily give up matches in the afternoon or if they're forced to do so.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I'm all for option 3 but I'd like to throw something out there regarding the whole inspection for extra practice bit...


Has anyone considered that teams having problems with their robots might actually need more practice time to help them work out the bugs than a team who's robot is working perfectly?

I know there have been plenty of times for my team where it would have been nice to have a few more practice rounds to identify and fix problems, not just to let the drivers practice. I'm not saying we should prevent the teams that are ready to practice more, but I don't think we should exclude teams that can't pass inspection either.


Just a thought. ;)




Of course, you still have the inspection pile up at the end of the day... maybe we aught to give out cookies to the teams that get inspected the earliest or something :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

All,

First of all, a robot does not have to be working perfectly to go through inspection. Many teams continue to modify their robots throughout the competition and many ask for a re-inspection on Friday or Saturday.

An inspection without bumpers or signs would still cover 99% of the "important" stuff. Even an inspection with entire subsystems missing would (1) allow greater safety for all involved on practice day and (2) help inspectors to identify teams needing help.

Putting on my team mentor hat for a moment:

If option 3 is adopted without requiring inspection, there is no way that I would allow my team to attempt inspection until there is absolutely no chance that an extra practice could be procured. Practice time is that valuable for a competitive edge.

Now putting on my head inspector's hat:

(Once again, if option 3 is adopted without requiring inspection) The prospect of having all the teams at a regional wait until 5PM to be inspected is a disaster in the making and virtually guarantees that many teams (especially rookies and teams needing extra help) will not be able to compete in their first match on Friday morning.

Given the choice of a few unfilled practice slots and teams missing matches on Friday, I cannot support option 3 without modification and would be forced to say that we must stay with option 1.

Please think about it...

Regards,

Mike

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Ok, it's not that I'm completely stuck on my idea or anything, but if you limit a team's practice matches and they run out mid afternoon, then they'd have plenty of time to finish inspection at that point....

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like this idea except it add an extra level of management to the process. Someone has to keep track of how many times you have practiced. I know that could be a clipboard & a sheet of paper, but there is still room for unnecessary work.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I've seen some queueing volunteers who do amazing things with a clipboard and a sheet of paper.;)

Seriously, I think the queuers can handle the extra responsibility that Kevin suggests.

FRC Practice Match Poll and Forum Passwords
 

Greetings Teams:

FIRST has received several calls and emails from teams who wish to participate in the Practice Match Poll, but can't remember or don't know their Q&A Forum password (your login name is simply "FRC" + your team number, i.e. FRC555).

The passwords are now available in TIMS, as they were during the 2007 season. Once logged into TIMS, you will see the password on the right hand side of your screen.

Please note that the FRC Game Q&A forum is not open yet.

If you are a rookie team and do not yet have a password provided in TIMS, please have your main or alternate contact send your team's vote to frcparts@usfirst.org, and you will be heard too!

Thank you very much for your feedback!

Go Teams!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Thanks, Mark. It appears that a few teams have voted in the poll.

I was surprised to see that the thread apparently does not allow particpants to post -- only to choose a poll option. So there isn't a way, on the FIRST Forum, to suggest/discuss ideas other than those already listed in the poll.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I say give out X number of tokens to each team. They hand one in when they run in a practice match. After they use up their tokens thet are done for the day.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I like that! Then if teams want to give other teams their unused tokens, more power to them & you again, don't end up with empty practice matches.

Of course everyone will want to use them up at the end of the day

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

How about giving out tokens of 3 different colors which represent different priorities. Use this to determine who gets to play in practice match slots. Here is an example:
Green Token = 1st priority
Yellow Token = 2nd priority
Red Token = 3rd priority
If a regional normally would have 3 practice matches for each team, then give out 3 green, 1 yellow and 1 red tokens. How do we use the tokens? Like this:
As teams line up for a practice match they must hand in a token to get in line. They have to decide how important it is for them to run in that match by using the appropriate priority token. If a team is originally assigned to that match, their green token takes priority over fill-in team’s green token. However, if they ran out of green tokens, then a fill-in team with a green token would have priority over them, since that would indicate that they already had their allotment of 3 matches. This would give teams who could not run early, a better chance of getting in some practice matches later. Fair – right?

To add to this, perhaps you could also say that a red and yellow token cannot be used without first getting an “Inspected” sticker. This forces fill-in teams who have not been inspected to use a green token early. Fair?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I think this would break down in certain cases. For example, if I'm in the first match of the day, and there's obviously no one else waiting to fill-in, I'll use my red token and get in anyway. If lots of teams do this (using the red and yellow at opportune moments when you know it won't be overridden), then won't you end up with a whole bunch of teams with green tokens at the end of the day but not enough practice slots to go around?

Who "wins" if there's multiple teams with green tokens to fill-in? Is it then based on first-come-first-serve?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Suppose we tap into the field and its love of scheduling to use it as a starting point.

Teams receive a practice match schedule Thursday morning as before. This time, however, teams can trade matches; to do it, a member of both teams' drive teams would come to pit admin. If teams can settle one-to-one trades by themselves, it reduces the need for any fill-ins. I don't know if giving away matches would be allowed; I'll leave it alone for now.

From there, we fill any other openings in two lines:

The Really Official Field Line (or ROFL) is open to teams who have passed inspection in full. Along with their dot for passing, the team receives two passes to the ROFL, to be enforced by the Really Official Field Line Chief Operations Protection and Traffic Enforcement Runner (or ROFLCOPTER).

The Limited Matches And Openings (or LMAO) line is open to all teams, including ROFL teams who either have exhausted their passes or are saving them for later. Teams in the LMAO line are admitted after any teams in the ROFL line. (To be in either line, the robot must physically be there.)

Teams get a nice incentive for passing inspection early, but not a ginormous one that shuts others out.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Every team who wants to practice must either be ROFL or LMAO? I like it. :cool:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I've worked queing at a tournament, and the first thing we need to do is keep this simple. No multicolo(u)red tokens - how much you think a green token would go for on the black market? No inconprehensible acronyms. :)

There are times when only 1 robot shows up for a practice match. (Including one memorable time when a human player on the no-robot alliance scored the only points in the match.) It's a shame wasting that field space. Other times we were able to combine two matches into one, and get back on schedule - a definite plus.

Recognizing that one team's biggest need is time in the pits, while another team's need is driver practice, why not let the open spots in a match be filled with those who want extra practice sessions?

If there has to be a limit on it, have the lead que keep track of fill-in teams. No team may have more than 3 extra sessions.

If there is a desire to have a link between inspection and practice, make it so that a team must begin inspection before they can use their second extra practice, and must finish it before their 3rd. That would be easy enough for the queing crew to track.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

The practice match poll thread on the FIRST Forum is now open for team representatives who are logged in as FRC<nnnn> to post feedback for FIRST staff to read. Since those folks are rather busy (especially so this time of year!) it is much easier for them to monitor the FIRST Forum than this one.

So please, if you have a comment or suggestion on your team's behalf, post it at http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...2275#post12275 or ask your team's official representative to do so.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Regarding your example, using the red and yellow can only be done when fully inspected. So, this is not going to happen early as much as you think.
Regarding tie breakers, it has to be first-come-first-served. It would be this way if you did not have tokens. But with the tokens, it should happen a lot less often and eliminate much of the chaos.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

OK, simple is often better, but I think in this case it = chaos.
Tokens or some other method of enforcing priorities has to be used or it will be chaotic.

And, I am not sure whether it is good or bad for teams to give other teams a green token. Maybe this is the reward given when a team helps another team work on their robot to get it running.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

What if you used stamps or stickers on the robot on a small label?
They could work like the tokens only could not be easily lost or exchanged.

There could be a reward or bonus for getting another team up and running maybe in the form of a token.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Option 3 looks like the best one except that the robots with pits near the queuing line would have a huge advantage over teams farthest away.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

Do you think with option 3, we could end up seeing teams line up to line up in the filler line.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

I would have to say option 3 is the most beneficial to teams. However, I would make one amendment having to do with those teams that want to go into the standby line. I think that all teams that want to wait in the standby line, must have been fully inspected before they are allowed to do so.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Practice Match Poll
 

A new policy on practice matches is included in the recently released 2008 FRC Manual, 3 - At the Events, starting on page 5.

See related thread.