Chief Delphi - **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

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Mark McLeod

21-11-2007 10:07

**FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Greetings Teams:

The following sections of the 2008 FRC Competition Manual are now available for download here, http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc/content.aspx?id=452

Section 0 - Introduction
Section 1 - Communication
Section 2 - Team Organization
Section 3 - At the Events
Section 5 - The Awards

Section 4 - Robot Transportation will be available some time in December.
Please be aware that the instructions for shipping your robot using the FedEx donation have been changed for 2008. This season, teams that utilize the generous donation will ship their robots via FedEx Freight not FedEx Express Freight (international exceptions may apply). Watch for specific guidelines in Section 4 and detailed instructions on www.usfirst.org.

The remaining game-related sections will be encrypted and available for download on January 5th, 2008, after the Kickoff.

Go Teams!

Mark McLeod

21-11-2007 10:09

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Ladies & gentlemen, start your engines!

JohnBoucher

21-11-2007 10:40

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

What no game hint? :cool:

IndySam

21-11-2007 10:52

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Longest six weeks of the year followed by the shortest six weeks of the year!

I need a game hint soon.:ahh:

Richard Wallace

21-11-2007 11:10

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

From "At The Events", a new policy to reduce wasted practice match time: (It think this is a really good change.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2008 FRC Manual 3 - At the Events

3.6.1 Practice Matches
Your registration envelope will contain a list of practice times for the first day. Practice matches take place on the competition field. The list will indicate on which competition field you will practice and with what teams. Teams may not switch practice times.
3.6.1.1 Time Slots
All teams will receive a comprehensive list of practice times. Your team must be ready to practice at the designated times and on the specified fields. If your team/robot cannot be ready for your practice time slot, you team may still send your human player to practice alone. Your team members may want to scout other teams and their strategies during practice and the actual competition matches.
3.6.1.2 The Filler Line
Although teams may not switch practice times, there will be a designated Filler Line at each Regional Competition. Teams whose robots are ready for practice may join the filler line. Teams from the Filler Line will be used on a first come, first serve basis to fill empty spots in practice matches left by other teams that do not show up for their own practice match. Filler Lines will be limited to at most, six robots, but is dependent upon space at venues. Criteria for joining the filler line are as follows:

- Teams must join the Filler Line with their robot
- Teams may not work on their robot while in the Filler Line
- Teams may not occupy more than one spot in the Filler Line
- If a team is queued up for their practice match, they may not join the Filler Line
- Robots in the Filler Line, after the lunch break, must have passed full inspection.

3.6.1.3 Courtesy
In order to make the most of practice time, there will be specified teams on a field during assigned practice slot. Each team must be respectful of the other teams sharing the field. Friendly interaction between machines is acceptable if all teams are willing. Un-sportsmanlike conduct on the part of a team during practice could result in loss of practice time.

Emphasis mine.

Ian Curtis

21-11-2007 11:48

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher (Post 653014)

What no game hint? :cool:

Game hint usually comes around December 20th, I think. Guess they don't want us to go too crazy. :rolleyes:

I like this whole filler line concept, but everyone always misses practice matches to pass inspection. Me thinks this "Filler Line" will be infamous for being extremely long in the later hours of Thursday. :ahh:

Pavan Dave

21-11-2007 13:15

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

I have a feeling that letting out parts of the game until kickoff letter by letter is of Dave's doing to make us all go crazy... On another note I like this filler line deal and since my job [as controls] really doesn't get too messy for the most part, I am always trying to get the bot inspected. Now this is a kind of "incentive" for our team to actually get inspected sooner, preferably as soon as we uncrate!

dtengineering

21-11-2007 13:51

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher (Post 653014)

What no game hint? :cool:

Okay... here's the game hint:

"Purple pants! Purple pants!" said Einstein, while bathed in electrons.
"Where are my pyjamas?"

Now, just to be clear, that isn't the OFFICIAL game hint... but I can guarantee you that it is just as helpful at predicting anything useful around this year's game as previous hints have been at predicting those games.

Be patient, kickoff will be here all too soon.

Jason

Mike Betts

21-11-2007 17:42

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 653031)

...everyone always misses practice matches to pass inspection...

Ian,

Having a team miss a scheduled practice is the last thing that the your inspection team wants. As far as I am concerned, no team should ever miss a practice due to the inspection process (the only excuse being a serious safety concern by the inspector).

I suggest that you talk to your lead inspector as soon as possible and explain what happened to your team in the past. He or she can be contacted via your Regional Director.

If you had a "legitimate" experience issue, the LI and RD will make sure that it does not happen again. Note that I placed legitimate in quotes. Most teams miss matches because either they can not operate or they choose not to practice (it happens more often than you would think...).

Regards,

Mike

Richard Wallace

21-11-2007 17:57

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Betts (Post 653082)

.... As far as I am concerned, no team should ever miss a practice due to the inspection process (the only excuse being a serious safety concern by the inspector). ...

I agree with Mike. When your team is called for a scheduled practice match, inspection should be suspended until your team returns to the pit and your inspector is available again. Teams and inspectors need to work with each other to minimize inspection delays, but making it to scheduled practice matches has to be the priority. (Unless your robot is a safety hazard on the field -- fixing THAT is an even higher priority.)

EricH

21-11-2007 18:16

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCurtis (Post 653031)

I like this whole filler line concept, but everyone always misses practice matches to pass inspection. Me thinks this "Filler Line" will be infamous for being extremely long in the later hours of Thursday. :ahh:

Uh...Methinks the Filler Line will be very quiet and the inspection line will be extremely long!!! (Then reversing right at the end of practice matches).

lukevanoort

21-11-2007 18:26

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

What I'm curious about is how the filler line will be handled at the Championship. With such a large distance between the pit and the field, the line will probably have to be on the Georgia Dome floor; unfortunately, that makes teams in the pit unable to ascertain the length of the line. So, will FIRST have a volunteer on the path from the pit to the dome to tell people the status of the filler line? Or maybe a little counter on the pit displays?

Ian Curtis

21-11-2007 18:29

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

I think you misunderstood me, and I was over generalizing. It is not the fault of the inspector that we miss practice matches, but our own, becuase we choose to fix problems earlier in the day and work through a practice match. We could chose to wait, but we'd rather get practice in at the end of the day with a complete robot than get in more practice with a less complete one.

Also, as BAE is a first week regional, usually the first 5 or so practice matches average about 2 teams showing up. I would assume other teams are making the same choices as we are.

My experiences with inspectors have been very positive. I can still recall fondly the first inspector we ever had, who told us we had to rewire a significant part of our ground wiring (we ran out of black wire near the end of the season :o). Managing to stay in someones good graces after telling them they have to rewire a robot, is a skill I'd love to have. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Betts (Post 653082)

Billfred

21-11-2007 19:03

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Having read through the sections, I am quite pleased. Lessons from 2007 were integrated, Chairman's and WFA winners get recognized in the first section of the manual, the awards section is the easiest to follow that I've ever read, and there aren't any head-scratchers. (Alright, so I wouldn't mind if FIRST standardized on the use of the title of "Regional Champion" instead of alternating with "Regional Winner" in half of the places...but that's another story.)

Pat Fairbank

21-11-2007 20:10

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

I, for one, am glad to see that FIRST has already clearly addressed the issue of machine tools in the pits and team-provided machine shops in sections 3.9.13 and 3.9.14, respectively (instead of leaving it to the second week of regionals as in 2007).

The gist of it is that bench-top tools band saws, drill presses, sanders, CNCs and the like are permitted, as are team-provided mobile machine shops if they provide their own liability coverage and power supply.

AcesPease

22-11-2007 09:47

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

A suggestion regarding missed practice and excessive machining in the pits. I know stuff happens, but if every team tries to have there robot ready to practice by the final weekend of build, more robots will be ready to practice and be inspected right out the box at the regional.

PS I admit that my team has been a pretty big offender on this issue :o

Mike Betts

22-11-2007 13:02

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesPease (Post 653171)

Bill,

So has my team.

If you know you have Thursday to finish up stuff, you tend to guarantee that there will be stuff to finish up on Thursday. It's a kinda self-fulfilling prophesy...

Mike

Richard Wallace

22-11-2007 13:20

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank (Post 653106)

I'm very glad to see this, too. The Thunderchickens are due to visit St. Louis, a Week 1 event again this year. With a little preparation, these policies on power tools should allow them operate the way they wanted to last year. It is good to have reasonable rules spelled out in advance so everyone knows what to expect.

As has been discussed extensively in other threads, teams participating in Week 1 events deserve the same advantages as those who participate later in the season. Props to FIRST for making their power tool policy clear well in advance.

RoboMom

23-11-2007 15:00

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 653099)

(Alright, so I wouldn't mind if FIRST standardized on the use of the title of "Regional Champion" instead of alternating with "Regional Winner" in half of the places...but that's another story.)

If you redline it, I will help you get it to the people who can update it.

Richard Wallace

23-11-2007 15:19

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 653099)

... (Alright, so I wouldn't mind if FIRST standardized on the use of the title of "Regional Champion" instead of alternating with "Regional Winner" in half of the places...but that's another story.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMom (Post 653290)

If you redline it, I will help you get it to the people who can update it.

Standardizing on one title would be good. I prefer "Winner" rather than "Champion" to describe teams on the alliance that wins the final elimination matches.

"Champion" would be appropriate for teams that are the sole representatives of one event to compete at a higher level -- but that's not the way FIRST works. Each Regional Event can be represented by several teams at the FRC Championship Event, and winning the eliminations is only one way that a team can become one of those representatives.

Rich Kressly

23-11-2007 16:45

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

It looks like Richard, Jenny, Mike, and the crew have all of the major points already pointed out in the released sections of the 2008 FRC manual, except .... pssttttttt ..... WFFA entries .... the Holiday season is for giving .... plan it now, get a head start ... the robot needs to be built in six weeks, but there's NOTHING prohibiting your team from working on honoring your special leader - NOW. Need some inspiration (and samples)?
Here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=45026
and
Here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=54710

Don't delay. You'll hate yourselves when you get 'too busy" in February.
For your reference, the 2008 Awards section is posted here:
http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...nt.aspx?id=452

Do it now. It's not about winning. It's about celebrating the finest inspirational examples we have.

Namaste.

Rosiebotboss

23-11-2007 23:07

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesPease (Post 653171)

I suppose this is a shameless plug for Winter Warzone?? The pre season scrimmage sponsored by Aces High in Suffield, CT. A wonderful way to find out if your creation actually works, if your strategy is sound and get some stick time under game conditions.

EricH

24-11-2007 02:15

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss (Post 653343)

I suppose this is a shameless plug for Winter Warzone??

And a plug for all the preship scrimmages happening that weekend...

If you don't go to one of these events, you may be at a competitive disadvantage. See, the teams that go have seen the game, know how it is played, and have had scouting practice. Plus, non-functioning robots have a tendency to go to at least minimal functionality before the end of the day. You didn't go, your robot is still in pieces, you don't know what your chances are of doing well, and you don't know what everyone else is doing.

If you don't want to reveal your designs, a practice robot could be sent. An example: in 2005, 330 sent their refitted 2004 robot, set up to mimic the real one as well as possible, to the SCRRF Preship Scrimmage. This did not reveal the true design, as the base was completely different. In 2007, the same thing happened, except that the robot sent was the 2007 practice robot, which, unlike its competition counterpart, did not have ramps. The ramps came out at the regional and were a key factor in winning.

Also, some events have INSPECTIONS, which, while not official, can greatly help you get ready early so you can spend more time in the Filler Line.

RoboMom

24-11-2007 15:33

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

***Off-topic***

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 653361)

And a plug for all the preship scrimmages happening that weekend...

We call the one in this area "The Playday." Last year, when the first ringer went over the player station wall instead of through the slot we went scrambling for the rules, saying "wait a second!" Seems like there is a fun moment like that at the pre-ship scrimmage every year.

EricH

24-11-2007 15:47

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMom (Post 653398)

Seems like there is a fun moment like that at the pre-ship scrimmage every year.

Tell me about it--one of the Beach'Bot alums was head ref at the SCRRF Preship for two years in a row, and both years he had to make a win-deciding call. (2002 (entaglement) and 2003 (definition of "on" the ramp))
Oh, and the tube over the wall was legal--I hope that's what you called it!:yikes:

And another fun moment from SCRRF Preship: 2003. One team had a telescoping arm that they would swing out during auto and then take a swipe at the bins. The arm would then be retracted and held in the rest of the match. After multiple cases of ref, MC, and resetters diving for cover, they were told to not use it until it was under control.... See, another reason for going--you can find out your chances of being thrown off the field for a safety violation!

JaneYoung

24-11-2007 16:11

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

As a 2007 rookie team, FRC 2158, AusTIN CANS, invited the Austin area teams to a pre-ship mini-meet. It was very helpful. We were able to try out our ramps and see what worked and what didn't work. Hopefully, if there is one this year, more teams will attend and gain valuable experience - and - make new friends.

synth3tk

25-11-2007 23:24

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/2008 FRC Competition Manual Sections Posted

Sounds like a well-rounded manual this year. I like the filler line insert. Should make for more productive fixit time before competition.

[Off-Topic]
On the subject of pre-ship scrimmages, I've never heard of this ritual. Anyone know of one near the Cleveland area?
[/Off-Topic]

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