Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Just to expand on Al's points. If you want Aluminum DIN rail this is the part number you can order from an Allen Bradley distrubtor. Such as Kendall Electric, Wabash Electric, etc.

Aluminum:
1492-DR5

Steel:
199-DR1

http://www.ab.com/en/epub/catalogs/1...4170/tab2.html


Also I would like to touch on one thing about these power blocks. Although most would agree that they aren't the best thing to use for robot/car type methodology in wiring applications, they ARE however given to all the teams by a "sponsor" Rockwell Automation, that wants you, a student and possible future engineer, to have some experience using their products. It's no different than receiving AutoDesk products. Allen Bradley is exposing you to products you'll use in Industrial Controls, A.K.A. Controls Engineering should you choose that path. The same goes for National Instruments, ironically a competitor to Rockwell Automation for industrial controls platforms. PLC verses PC based controls....anyway....sometimes you gotta step back and look at the big picture of why things change, they change because sponsors want to see this program grow, and they also want in return to see their products or services getting some exposure. It's not because someone is punishing us. But rather let's show appreciation for what we receive and thank the big fish sponsors for their donations.

Did you know that FIRST had a booth in Chicago at Rockwell's "Automation Fair 2007"? That was the first time I had heard of it. That's big exposure for FIRST at Automation Fair.

I think back when the Apollo missions had all these problems. The engineers dumped out a box of parts on the table and said "Ok this is what they have on the rocket to work with, let's figure out how to make an air filter using these parts". Thinking of using the power blocks in this way, it's what you have to work with, make the best of it, and thank Rockwell Automation for their donations.

disclaimer:
Do I use Allen Bradley/Rockwell Automation products now? Yes, I buy thousands of dollars each week... I consider myself an expert with Alllen Bradley PLCs (programmable logic controllers), a bit biased in the least, but I do appreciate what they have done for FIRST.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Wow.... you certainly came up with a creative solution to the problem.

I'm sorry if my original post was a little rude, but we still had problems with wires randomly coming loose. Maybe there was something else we were doing wrong, but I certainly like the crimped ring terminal connection a lot better.

I understand they use them in industry, but do they really use them in places that see large amounts of vibration and possible impact?

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Adam,
The first time I encountered this type of block was in the power distro of our analog transmitter. This transmitter was built in Missasauga, outside of Toronto. All tranmsmitter module power is 50 volts so the distro is very complex. There are 8 2kW (conservative) modules in each of two cabinets for each of two transmitters. Total power is 800 Amps for a fully black picture.
In our digital transmitter we have dual redundant power distro in large cabinets on one wall of the transmitter facility. Three phase power comes in through these blocks, then distributes to the rest of the cabinet where everything electrical is mounted on DIN rails. To protect the final amplifier, the mains breakers are motor driven trip so that mains voltage will be removed within two cycles of the power line sine wave upon fault. The mains voltage then routes to time delay relays which first insert huge resistors to limit "inrush current" and then following a sufficient time delay, bypass the resistors for full power. There is obviously a variety of telemetry devices installed in the cabinet as well. Everything is installed on DIN rails including small relays like those used for the orange light. Inside the transmitter cabinets, the same rail mounted terminal strips are used for all three phase and low voltage wiring. (low being anything less than 300 volts.) This includes all blower power, DC power supplies, control wiring and telemetery. All high voltage wiring requires special handling and special hardware to prevent arcing and corona discharge. It also requires some very special safety controls so that high voltage cannot be applied with the covers open or circuitry bypassed. High voltage in this transmitter is 35,000 volts at 2 amps.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Yes, Din rails are an industry standard and there is an amazing amount of stuff you can put on them. However, I don't believe the power distribution blocks and last years fusing solution is ideal. Now if those power distribution blocks were circuit breakers, I would be a little happier with them. Our problem is that our robots electrical system is based on 12 volts dc and industrial controls use higher ac voltages. The car automotive industry is where we need to look for solutions. Enough, I have to get to work. My first job today is to replace several components in a pump control box. They are all DIN rail mounted components. Latter today, I have to add some controls on a steam boiler control panel. They are all DIN rail components. DIN rails are every where.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Yup, DIN rail stuff is everywhere...on stationary equipment. You won't find it in cars, though. And cars are more like robots, they move around. There is no standardization on cars, each manufacturer makes the power distribution system specifically for each model, using specialized components.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

While there are few industry wide standards for car parts, it's still misleading to say "there is no standardization on cars."

Car parts are the subject of very extensive documentation and testing. Just ask any of the automotive engineers that haunt these boards.

And the quantities in which car parts are produced drives down their cost. It also drives down their failure rates, because car parts are much more expensive to replace in the field than to install initially, and car manufacturers are responsible for those costs through the warranties they must offer to stay competitive.

I agree with Gdeaver -- FIRST should be looking at car parts instead of industrial automation components.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

Yes, you're right, there is some standardization in car electrical systems, as far as components such as fuses and relays and bulbs. Also the computer systems are using a few standard data bus designs. Still, the power distribution parts such as wiring and fuse boxes and whatnot are designed specifically for each model. Have you priced a battery cable for a late model car lately?

The old IFI distribution panel is probably as good as it gets...there just doesn't seem to be anything in industry that can be readily adopted to FIRST robotics use.

Re: "DIN rail" or Not
 

No battery cable, but I did pay about $300 for a new in-tank fuel pump assembly last week. And I know from a fairly recent project that the electric motor in that assembly goes for about $8 in ~1 million piece per year quantities. (I'm a motor designer.) The rest of the assembly is stampings and plastic parts, so its price in service-counter quantities clearly has very little to do with its production cost. And there are nearly as many variations on the design of that component as there are vehicle platforms. However, the quantities required for even one platform are very large, such that the volume leverage on common components like motor armatures, brushgear, and magnets is staggering -- those parts are made in millions per day. And despite my recent frustration at having to replace a fuel pump after only five years of service, I know that statistically my experience in unusual.

All that said, your basic premise is correct: the automotive industry has (so far) missed the opporutunity to standardize basic power distribution system components like fuse panels. Just like FRC robot designers, the automotive OEMs have tended to stick those power distribution parts wherever they will fit after more important design priorities have been satisfied.