TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Eh yguys, I'm Matt Cydylo. Those who attended Harford/UTC and New Hampshire regionals last year recognize as the Bacon Bobcat, and propbably remember my shenanigans wit girls and such...
Anyway, I was tossing ideas aound with mentors and teammmates involving our 2008 build...
-DUAL (side-by-side) build of a competitive and practice robot. Ask questions, and I will elaborate. Thanks...

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Why spend the money building two identical robots that have the same function when you could build one and use the leftover money to help another team or use it to get more people involved in FIRST.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Some teams do this with a lot of success, a second robot can make programming and driver practice easier. Some teams even use the second robot in the off season by lending it to a team that would like to compete the following year, allowing them to experience competition before their rookie year.

If you have the money and resources then why not.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Used before with success. For a bigger challenge, try building a practice/prototype robot first and then building the competition robot. Or, pay for another competition. Or start a FTC or FLL team.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

340 tried that last year but ended up cannibalizing the practice bot to get the competition bot in tip-top shape. But with some success, it was very basic and we were able to turn it into a static display at Rochester International Airport with minimal work done to it.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

hey i know you...

(loser stop hittin on the chicks!)

well my idea on this is we should build a practice one put of cheap stuff plywood and what not in the first week and a half. then see how it works and if we like it we build it for real. with a little bit of changes you know.

and any way ill talk to you tomorrow Matt.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

I believe that's what you call prototyping;) But yea..left over money = next season's budget or new FLL/FTC Teams.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Ya. We're gunna cannibalize last year's bot and modify the chassis (made from the build kit) to at least have a rolling chassis replica of the comp bot. The bots will be built literally in unison, with them set up less than 10 feet away from eachother through the whole build. Should make for some SICK NASTY build season pix!!! Hey Alex... Have you already forgotten what we iscussed in the meeting TONIGHT??? Shame on you. Shame. Pssssh. Haha jk

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Many teams use practice bots; it's one of the main causes of their success.

I've heard the same from many veteran teams, but this is just the most recent example I've heard.

Re: what are you talking
 

Aaaaaaand, you should be shot. haha, jk. Sooo, just read my three previous posts, they should fill you in pretty darned well. Does anyone have any more questions???

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

...just interrupting with a friendly reminder that IM-style conversations are discouraged on the forums and that there are probably better avenues for intra-team discussions than this, so let's try to stick to the topic. :)

Thanks!

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

1885 used 2007's prototype frame that had a million holes in it (but it was still purple) to make a new scrimmage bot for offseason events. This scrimmage bot was the first 1885 bot that was fully CADed and was also the first 1885 bot that used pneumatics. Needless to say, prototypes do not have to go to waste.

That said, we have this year's basic prototype concept frame done and hope to have the drivers driving within the first week so the programmers know who they're programming for. This frame will also be used in the offseason for experimentation with any whacky drive train ideas anyone comes up with.

I don't think 2 frames is a waste, though imho 2 sets of parts for 2 robots is.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Two Indiana teams spring to mind from 2007 - 45 built two Rack bots (I believe one was kit and one was spare parts) which allowed them to practice driving & programming through March. This led to their victory at St. Louis and a very close call at the Boilermaker Regional.
234 bought two kits as I recall, with the intention of allowing the upstart POWER team to use the secondary bot. They not only won the BMR but gained a ton of awards.
For teams fortunate enough to do so, building two robots is certainly beneficial.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Definitely the case here. 330 built one in three weeks, even before the decision on how to work ramps was reached. (Accomodations were made in case we wanted to use them. We didn't.) The remaining three were spent in refining the design to perfection. Everyone was happier--programmers could test auto modes, drivers could practice, engineers could make small modifications quickly. Then, when we traveled, we took apart the running gear of the practice robot and removed the arm and brought those with us for spare parts. (Which is where our spare arm came from on Einstein.)

Four uses of practice robots: Concept check, program test, driver practice, and spare parts (if you do it right). Keeping your real design semi-secret at pre-ship events is another advantage--unless you do really well!

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

217 has made a practice bot for as long as I can think of (since 05 for sure, before that I dont know but possibly). This year it was especially useful, as the game required exquisite driver/operator skill and cooperation. The biggest advantage I know of (from a driver's POV) is the literally unlimited drive practice. We were there almost every day after school on our practice field, trying out new strategies, just working on our "oneness" as a whole.

I also know 1114 had ridiculous drive practice sessions, and if you ever got the chance to see their bot in action this year you'd see that right away.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Thanks for all your tips and discussion! We work closely with 236, and they hav built practice bots for atleast the last few years. Look slike its goin down. Please continue the conversation, It will help young teams like us!

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

When my first team (1018 go ROBODEVILS!!!) started, we had a hard time doing anything more than building one robot. When we finally made the decision to build a second version it was a great advantage for the drivers.
Once you make the decision to do it, you can invest and use that controller for the next year's 2nd bot.

I would strongly suggest that anyone thinks about it seriously. It is a great test bed in the off season and can be loaned out.

This year on 1983 we are building two drive bases...and we are inviting any other Seattle/Washington teams over to practice driving the one that stays home. It may only be a drive base but from my experience, just driving around on a large field can help immensely.

The experience of standing up and driving up on a regulation size field is quite important.

Acquiring the FIRST objects is very difficult at distance. Getting that perspective on a full size field can be extremely helpful. Just standing and driving back and forth or up and down is also helpful.

We invite anyone over to our place to try out their robot or use one of ours just to drive around... get the feel fo a field... become friends!!!

We hope to see you here!!!

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

We'll be there. :) We already have the drive train; we're hoping to duplicate whatever we build for competition on that so we can get as much practice in as possible.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

This year, 228 is planning on building a clone of our real robot to be a practice robot. Last year we came close to having one, except time and money reasons kept it from being completed.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Team 166 tried building identical robots last year. While it didn't work out exactly as we had planned, it still provided us with a good chance to make the second (competition) robot, get a little bit of driving practice, and a lot of spares.

Hubs were welded onto a shaft in the elbow, so if the shaft broke that's it. Of course, while practicing before River Rage, the shaft broke. Fortunately we took the effort 6 months before to build an identical robot and had an entire new arm to put in place of the broken one.

It would be better to make identical robots with identical materials, not one out of plywood and one out of aluminum. This is for spare part purposes and so driving the robots feel the same.

Also, make sure your budget can accomodate both robots. We decided to use AM mecanum wheels with a healthy amount of Banebots transmissions with encoders mounted on them. We pretty much ran out of money.

There are a lot of risks to take like having enough money, time alotted, etc. but if you do it right, you can end up with a machine that the drivers can use to practice and the programmers can use for autonomous. In a game like last year's where driver skill is incredibly important, this concept can be huge.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Our team makes two bots. The 3week bot (you may have already seen videos) and the final bot. We keep weight and stuff in mind but don't focus on it 100%. On the final bot we mod the designs from the practice bot to make it functional and effective and than after ship we make those mods to our 3week robot. It works well and many other teams (I'm pretty sure almost every team that makes it to einstein) have a practice robot.

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

What do you do with the practice bot after ship??

Re: TEAM 1699 BUILD CONCEPT!
 

Is this a trick question? You practice with it. You give your drivers a chance to get really good before the first competition. You can use the fix-it windows to tweak your software and get it working exactly as you want on real hardware. You prototype upgrade parts that you can then fabricate either during a fix-it window or at competition.

A clonebot that stays at home after you ship the competition 'bot can be a powerful advantage if used well.