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-   -   **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60002)

Mark McLeod 10-12-2007 19:01

**FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Greetings Teams:

A pilot rookie competition will be held in Flint, Michigan from March 7-8, 2008. Interested rookies may go to http://www.ketteringroboticscompetition.com for full details.

Please address any questions regarding this event to Sally Hicks at shicks@kettering.edu <http://www.ketteringroboticscompetition.com/shicks@kettering.edu>

IMPORTANT: Competing in this event does not qualify any team to attend the FIRST Championship in Atlanta.

Go Teams!

AdamHeard 10-12-2007 19:15

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
So, this is a regional for only rookies pretty much? just without qualifying?

I like the idea, could be a good warm up for them.

Billfred 10-12-2007 19:22

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
I find this highly interesting. With this announcement, FIRST is doing a lot of things they haven't done before. To my knowledge:

-Special cases like Israel and 1992 aside, FIRST has never had an all-rookie event before.
-FIRST has never sent an email blast out about an unofficial event. (There is a community events page on the FRC section that has been known to hold off-seasons, however.)
-FIRST has never supplied a field for an unofficial event anytime while events are going on. (Winter War Zone does get a field during build season to shake down.)
-There has never been an unofficial event held while robots are out of teams' hands. (Shipping should be interesting here.)

While the details are rather hazy right now, I'm liking the sound of this kind of event. Think of the possibilities...

gail 11-12-2007 04:37

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
The first ever Rookie Regional will be held at Kettering University March 7-8, 2008.

WHERE: Kettering University in Flint
WHEN: March 7-8, 2008
COST: $500
CAPACITY: 36 Rookie Teams
FIELD: Regulation 2008 Field with 2008 Game Rules
ACCOMMODATIONS: Dorm Rooms Available for $15/night
SHIPPING COST: Free


As noted above, the cost is just $500. We have room for 36 teams. First preference will be given to the 15 Michigan rookies, and then we will welcome rookies from around the globe on a first come, first serve basis.

The event will be Friday and Saturday only, although teams may unload on Thursday evening if they wish.

Kettering has done an amazing job at helping us keep costs down. In fact they have arranged for dorm rooms to be available for a mere $15 per night. Robot Shipping will also be free.

Regulation FIRST inspections will take place the first half of the day on Friday with qualifying rounds starting in the afternoon and running until 9pm.

We will have veteran FIRST engineers on hand throughout the competition to help rookies get their robots in great shape for their big regional. Our goal is to have 36 competitive rookie robots by the end of the competition.

If you are interested in volunteering to assist our rookies please let Sally Hicks know.

Awards will be given out and there is even a possibility of a social event of some sort late Friday evening.

While just for rookies this year, this low cost event is the first step to develop an inexpensive model that can be held in local high schools anywhere as a qualifying district event. Hopefully this will prove to be a sustainable, feasible alternative as FIRST continues to grow.

A secondary goal was to give rookies, who are traditionally not as well funded as veteran teams, a second round of play for a nominal price. Providing them with an opportunity to get comfortable in the competition setting and to make improvements to their robot before they play their big event, should help ensure a successful rookie season.

If you are a rookie and would like to participate, please register online at www.ketteringroboticscompetition.com. We would love to have you!!

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly.

Gail Alpert
248 425-4148

GaryVoshol 11-12-2007 08:54

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billfred (Post 657515)
While the details are rather hazy right now, I'm liking the sound of this kind of event. Think of the possibilities...

So Billfred, have you ever been to an event in Michigan? Time to add more miles to your total, methinks. Be a part of history!

wilsonmw04 11-12-2007 09:04

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
This sounds like a GREAT idea! Too bad they didn't have one last year :rolleyes:

Rosiebotboss 12-12-2007 13:07

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gail (Post 657702)
While just for rookies this year, this low cost event is the first step to develop an inexpensive model that can be held in local high schools anywhere as a qualifying district event. Hopefully this will prove to be a sustainable, feasible alternative as FIRST continues to grow.

A secondary goal was to give rookies, who are traditionally not as well funded as veteran teams, a second round of play for a nominal price. Providing them with an opportunity to get comfortable in the competition setting and to make improvements to their robot before they play their big event, should help ensure a successful rookie season.

This sounds exactly why MI is not having a FTC event. I thought that was why FTC was created, to give high schools a low cost alternative to FRC, a sort of "farm system" if you will......interesting.:rolleyes:

Pat Major 12-12-2007 15:38

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss (Post 658160)
This sounds exactly why MI is not having a FTC event. I thought that was why FTC was created, to give high schools a low cost alternative to FRC, a sort of "farm system" if you will......interesting.:rolleyes:

As the number of FRC teams grows FIRST has become aware that the current FIRST model may not work if we had a team in every school. In Michigan, we already have three regional events and many Michigan teams still have to travel out of state to compete because our events fill up. Scheduling of the regional events is an issue, two of the Michigan events had to be back to back this year. If we are able to use high schools as venues, it opens many possibilities, including low cost events.

gail 12-12-2007 16:24

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
FTC is different because the robots are smaller and mentors are not required. Our goal is to have FRC become a sustainable program that we can put in every high school in the country. We can't do that with the current cost structure. Regional are very expensive.

Now, if we can develop an event that will give teams the ability to compete locally AND are cost effective to run AND maintain the quality of a real regional, then we're on to something becuase we know the impact FIRST has on students. This is what we are trying to do in Michigan.

Rosiebotboss 12-12-2007 16:24

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat Major (Post 658202)
As the number of FRC teams grows FIRST has become aware that the current FIRST model may not work if we had a team in every school. In Michigan, we already have three regional events and many Michigan teams still have to travel out of state to compete because our events fill up. Scheduling of the regional events is an issue, two of the Michigan events had to be back to back this year. If we are able to use high schools as venues, it opens many possibilities, including low cost events.

Well, first off, as much as it sounds good, there are many reasons there will never be a FRC team in every high school, I don't care what state you're from. Even if money was taken out of the equation, personalities and other administrator's priorities cannot be.

I understand you want to help out the rookies by giving them an opportunity to shake out their designs. I think it is unfair they get to play with their robots before a regional and after ship date. Do the veterans from MI have a different ship date than the rest of the country? I think not.

While it is noble of you to think of the rookies, it would be better to provide a stronger mentoring program from the veteran teams, maybe something like the Ask An Engineer program being run by Team 125, Northeastern Univ in Boston. How about running a pre-ship scrimmage on the Sat before ship that everyone can go to? (There are 2 in New England)

I believe it's not the robot that we are building here. It is the student we are building. I'll get off my soapbox now.

EricH 12-12-2007 16:47

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
It looks like what they're trying to do is as follows:

A) minimize costs. I think the main reason teams drop out (other than fragmenting/combining) is cost. $6000 is a lot; another $4000 per event is worse for many schools (who also have to pay teachers, custodians, and administrators). Not having school support is worse. I think FIRST is trying to avoid future cost increases as much as possible.

B) level the playing field a little bit. The extra competition time pays off every year. It's better than the seeding match algorithm last year.

C) give the rookies a chance at "hardware" that is likely to go to veteran teams at any event that is not completely rookies. There is a possibility that teams will get more support if they have something to show for the support.

I'll be interested to see how this turns out. I've seen or heard of some few "power rookies" (rookies that are acting like second or third year teams, and second-year teams that act far older on the field), but they tend to be few and far between. This could increase the number of strong early teams.

Fred Sayre 12-12-2007 17:33

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Ultimately, the money must be coming from somewhere right? Just because the venue, lodging, and shipping are all donated does not make it more cost effective. How scalable is this really?

I came from a University of Washington team that is no longer in existence because of funding (and not from a lack of trying). The few suitable sites for a full regional are prohibitively expensive on this scale. It took Microsoft, and presumably a great financial support to hold a regional in the this area at all.

I feel that working with FIRST to bring regional costs down would be more valuable then trying to add new events through a separate system. It is frustrating how expensive some of these events are, but in reality it is because there are usually huge costs associated with running an event.

If it is easy to run events where the registration fees were only $500 then why can't all existing regionals be ran this way? And if it is just in specific locations that this program works then why not create official regionals there through partnership with FIRST and the University or other organizations and then take whatever extra funds there are to sponsor rookies and provide team grants?

I agree with the intentions of this program, to encourage new rookie teams to be created and increase the likelihood of these teams developing into sustainable organizations. Leveling the playing field though? Obviously money should be a limited factor in how well a team does, but this would be effectively giving rookies an extra couple days to work on their robots over other teams only attending 1 regional. It is no good to discourage a 2+ year team that has worked hard and yet are marginalized among the rookies who have had longer to work on their machines and some field-practice time. You have to keep out some of the randomness that comes from artificially leveling the playing field in ways that are not unilateral.

Barry Bonzack 12-12-2007 17:44

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Since no teams qualify for Chairman's, I'm going to say Rookie Allstar, Rookie Inspiration, and Highest Rookie Seed awards become very competitive. :p

Who wants to do a Fantasy FIRST for this regional? Everyone picks a team by random, or funniest arrangement of numbers.

Dave Flowerday 12-12-2007 17:47

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.

EricH 12-12-2007 17:53

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday (Post 658230)
Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.

I've heard that it's about $250,000 for a full regional. I'd guess that a lot of that is from venue costs. (The rest would be the A/V, primarily. Maybe team social as well.)

Madison 12-12-2007 17:54

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday (Post 658230)
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.

My understanding has been that nothing, or nearly nothing, of registration fees go toward hosting regional events. I know a lot of others who're under the same impression, so if that's not true -- or if that isn't a consistent explanation across all events -- it'd be nice for someone to set us straight.

Cory 12-12-2007 18:13

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday (Post 658230)
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.

In 2002 I remember the WRRF looking into holding Cal Games at the San Jose State Event Center (same place the SVR is held). At that time it was ~$7,000 a day to use the venue. That may have been a discounted price, since it was an educational venture, and the venue is owned by the university, so I'm not sure.

I'm sure there's plenty of regionals held at places that are much more expensive.

JaneYoung 12-12-2007 18:34

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
I have no idea what the goals and objectives of IRI 2007 were other than providing a rocking competition this summer. It also provided an excellent opportunity to take a moment and savor where FIRST has come from, where FIRST is, and where it could possibly go - in a high school gym. It was a total blast.

At some point, a tier system or districting system may need to be looked at regarding FRC teams. We may not be there yet in all areas across the board but there appear to be regions that need to start addressing growth needs now. This can be used as a pilot program as is stated, for learning and developing, and it has great models to work from, in many ways, in off season events like IRI.

The deal with homework is that it works. There have been dedicated teams who have done their homework and as this continues, options will need to be looked at and explored.

Billfred 12-12-2007 19:08

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday (Post 658230)
Out of curiosity, how much of the cost we pay right now is going to pay for the regional venues? Simply switching to a high-school gym (even if we kept all the lighting, A/V, etc) might be a big money-saver. I've heard some numbers tossed around regarding some of the venue costs and those numbers were pretty big (but I don't know if they were at all accurate).

Anybody have a rough idea of the typical cost for a venue? Are we talking $1,000, $10,000, or $100,000? I'd guess it's between the last two.

The Carolina Coliseum, USC's older arena (which may or may not be standing in ten years due to most of the main tenants, the Columbia Inferno hockey team and USC's journalism school in the basement, moving elsewhere) charges $4500 a day for the venue. That's just to get yourself an empty arena--the total costs, I bet, are actually far higher.

Madison 12-12-2007 19:25

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Ballpark figures for the Georgia Dome seem to put the stadium at about $25,000 per day and the pits based upon salable square footage, but I'm not sure how that'd apply explicitly to us. At published rates, though, you'd be looking at about $170 per team, it seems. If there are 500 teams at the event between FLL, FTC and FRC and they all get about the same pit area, we're talking a cost for salable square footage in the neighborhood of $90,000.

Mark McLeod 12-12-2007 19:28

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
The SBPLI event is $200,000 (total cost) in the college arena we use, and the funding is all raised locally. One of the big concerns is that if the regional grows, then the full size arena we'd have to transition to is much more expensive to rent and, hence, riskier to find sustainable funding for. If our funds run short, frills--such as A/V--get cut.

I believe FIRST does provide financial support to regionals that fall short in their independent fundraising. Back in 2000 when our regional began, one of the home office's big concerns, when a new regional started up, was that it become independently sustainable.

KathieK 12-12-2007 20:15

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
The top concern of all FIRST teams (from all programs) that come to NEMO meetings is NOT funding (that's #2). The top concern is recruiting and retaining mentors. I think we need to focus on sustaining teams and assisting rookies by creating supportive mentoring programs in conjunction with looking at lowering costs.

There are hidden costs to every event (meaning, things you wouldn't even dream of...). Some of the ones I've experienced: per-table and per-chair rental fees (think about that the next time you sit down to eat lunch at a venue!), per-tablecloth fees. Electrician on call. Safety personnel staffing. Building Manager on call. Facilities staff to set up pits, etc. and break them down. Food and beverages for volunteers, t-shirts. Medallions and trophies (huge costs).Custodian fees, even if they cannot empty the garbage cans in your playing field arena because they don't belong to the union that THOSE custodians belong to so you end up emptying the garbage anyway, plus pay for two of them to be there all day... :eek: , AV equipment cost is huge, DJ services, floor covering, microphone battery replacement (yes, I did incur that fee), printing costs for signage, banners, name badges, etc., judges' shirts, UHaul Rental to move field etc, US flag purchase (it didn't come with the venue), two-way radios for volunteers, playing fields, controllers, field elements, pipe and drape, area roping, etc., the list goes on and on.
IF you don't end up with sponsors then the costs are paid for by the team registration. I'd LOVE to get $500 per team for my FTC event so that I could add some cool lighting or better AV services, but FTC limits our registration fees to $300 at most to make it affordable.
My FTC event is a mere three weeks before the local FRC regional - we will be drawing on the same geographic pool of volunteers to staff both events. As FTC grows (28% growth this year in registered, paid teams per my calculations), so will the establishment of FTC qualifiers before the Championship Tournaments - and there are only so many sponsors, so many volunteers, so many venues and so many days in the calendar.

joeweber 12-12-2007 23:26

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Yes there are a lot of hidden costs that come up in these events. I am sure that Kettering is eating a lot of cost to hold this event. They have been holding an off season event for many years and have the experience to hold this event. How many other collages could hold this even to help keep the costs down? I think it could be done. I don't ever see a FRC team in every school but it doesn’t hurt to try. Just like trying to hold low cost events in schools may be hard but we should try.
I remember how hard it is to start a new team, it can be overwhelming. I believe that anything we can do to help them is a must. It is too easy for them to fall flat and quit. I know our team will be there to help the new teams and I bet many other mentors will also be there

Mark McLeod 13-12-2007 10:41

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
There are also FIRST mandates to make each event have a familiar look and feel resulting in expenses each regional has to shoulder, for instance, this year FIRST is going to use electronic banners to display the primary sponsors at an additional rental cost of ~$5,000.

The rational behind robot shipping often comes down to insurance mandates (as well as union rules at large venues), and insurance can be a big invisible expense.

Andrew Bates 13-12-2007 11:53

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod (Post 658458)
this year FIRST is going to use electronic banners to display the primary sponsors at an additional rental cost of ~$5,000.

What does an electronic banner add to the competition. Seems like an added cost without any real useful return.

EricH 13-12-2007 11:58

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Ugh. If anyone was at Championships, did they really like those giant screens and their tendency to show ads between matches? The old blue banners next to the screen are cheaper and easier to transport.

JaneYoung 13-12-2007 12:50

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Because Long Star Regional has typically fallen at the end of the competition season, I had followed some commentary regarding the electronic banners as a detraction, etc. So at Lone Star, I wanted to observe the screens and see for myself. They were great. For me personally, screens at Lone Star were easily read and understood and the sponsor banners looked professional and tasteful.

There are and have been dedicated sponsors that have supported FIRST and the teams since the beginning. I understand that it is costly to acknowledge them in this manner but at the same time, promoting our sponsors and recognizing their dedication to FIRST is an important part of the partnership.

At the Central Texas FLL event this past weekend, I had an opportunity to meet some of the VIPs that were visiting the different teams during judging. Their eyes were sparkling and their enthusiasm was contagious. They loved it and they were very grateful to the volunteers and mentors that support the efforts of FLL and FIRST. The event was held in a high school gym and the place was rocking.

The venues have become important to many and the costs have become a major factor in what we have gotten used to. What people really care about and see though, is the inspiration and recognition of science and technology shining in the eyes of the students, the mentors, the volunteers, the VIPs, the sponsors. It's pretty incredible. A balance can be found.

Alan Anderson 13-12-2007 13:39

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by corpralchee (Post 658467)
What does an electronic banner add to the competition. Seems like an added cost without any real useful return.

It removes waste of both time and material.

Andy Baker 13-12-2007 14:47

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Back on topic...

As FIRST grows, a new models for Regionals need to be tested and evaluated. Sure, there may be questions about how exactly this event will unfold, but I think it is better to try it out and see what develops.

Folks... this is a good thing. If problems happen, then those are things that will need to be address by FIRST administration as these growth models are developed over the next few years. If this type of event is good, we will know soon. If things about it are not good, then we will also know soon. I'm for saying "let's give this a try."

I had the opportunity to listen to Pat and Gail talk about this event a couple of months ago, and I offered to help them make this thing work. They've asked me to be the head referee and I'm looking forward to this chance to help. Count me in as head ref.

Andy B.

maltz1881 20-02-2008 23:00

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Well, first off, as much as it sounds good, there are many reasons there will never be a FRC team in every high school, I don't care what state you're from. Even if money was taken out of the equation, personalities and other administrator's priorities cannot be.

I understand you want to help out the rookies by giving them an opportunity to shake out their designs. I think it is unfair they get to play with their robots before a regional and after ship date. Do the veterans from MI have a different ship date than the rest of the country? I think not.
I think it is very fair. My team is a small team who has never been able to do more then just the 1 competition. Do you remember what it was like to be a rookie. More than likely most of the teams who come won't even have a robot fully built. I can't speak for any other state, but here in MI we tend to help each other as much as possible. We hold mini scrimmages before ship, we help each other during build. Not just online either. I personally helped 4 other teams the day before and day of ship. Monday night I didn't get to bed until 3 AM. Our robot was finished and others needed help. I hope others do this as well.

Instead of criticizing, come join us. I think it is going to be a ton of fun. We are doing things a little different. We will have donated prizes like batteries, tools etc instead of trophies. Kettering who is the top engineering school out there has graciously donated the space for this fun event.

Jack Jones 22-02-2008 09:55

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
[quote=maltz1881;704028... I think it is going to be a ton of fun. We are doing things a little different. We will have donated prizes like batteries, tools etc instead of trophies. Kettering who is the top engineering school out there has graciously donated the space for this fun event.[/QUOTE]

I hear that many teams like CD, WildStang, Martians, and company have so many trophys that they use them for door stops and hammers. ;) ;) Too bad there wasn't a Rookie Regional to start them off right.

The RR now has 23 registered teams. They only need one more (and for all to show up) to fill the elimination rounds.

One more rookie team out there should not pass up such a deal. You will get to play in the eliminations. You will get at least 16 qualifying matches*. That's two regionals worth of playing time, and all for $500!!!!

*calculated using a very generous ten minute separation between match. The usual separation is seven minutes.

GaryVoshol 22-02-2008 10:40

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Jones (Post 704940)
The RR now has 23 registered teams. They only need one more (and for all to show up) to fill the elimination rounds.

Is registration still open? How does that work now, with robots already in transit to a Regional somewhere else?

I'm looking forward to working at the tournament.

Jack Jones 22-02-2008 10:54

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 704960)
Is registration still open? How does that work now, with robots already in transit to a Regional somewhere else?

I'm looking forward to working at the tournament.

D'oh! You are right - it would be a major hassle to divert a crate.

Seeing as how teams only have one rookie year, that deal is gone for good!

GaryVoshol 22-02-2008 11:02

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.

Cynette 22-02-2008 15:20

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 704985)
So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.

While I'm sure there is a story with a chuckle behind this post...
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.

Good luck to all of the participants!

jgannon 22-02-2008 15:33

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynette (Post 705127)
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.

Because there were only 24 teams at the Pittsburgh regional in 2006, and there needed to be substitutes available, they ran a seven-alliance elimination bracket, and the #1 alliance got a first-round bye.

GaryVoshol 22-02-2008 15:38

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 704985)
So now the question becomes how to trick the scoring system into creating a 7-alliance finals. Copioli knows how to do it by hand, and how NOT to do it automatically (something about no such Team Zero), as found out at ARC last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynette (Post 705127)
While I'm sure there is a story with a chuckle behind this post...
I remember seeing somewhere along the way, using all the teams to form alliances with one alliance incomplete (I would guess it was the 8th seeded), and then running the first quarterfinal and selecting the highest ranked team eliminated in that first QF to fill the partial alliance. That way all of the teams still play in the elimination rounds.

Good luck to all of the participants!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon (Post 705134)
Because there were only 24 teams at the Pittsburgh regional in 2006, and there needed to be substitutes available, they ran a seven-alliance elimination bracket, and the #1 alliance got a first-round bye.

That's what happened at ARC as well - 7 alliances with the first alliance getting a bye (or winning 2 games against non-existant alliance 8, if you want to think of it that way).

The amusing part was though everyone knew the concept, the scoring software couldn't be convinced that Alliance 8 consisted of Teams 0, 0 and 0. We were all ready to go, but couldn't cue up a match on the field software.

Jack Jones 29-02-2008 12:03

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Pilot Rookie Competition
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 705141)
That's what happened at ARC as well - 7 alliances with the first alliance getting a bye (or winning 2 games against non-existant alliance 8, if you want to think of it that way).

The amusing part was though everyone knew the concept, the scoring software couldn't be convinced that Alliance 8 consisted of Teams 0, 0 and 0. We were all ready to go, but couldn't cue up a match on the field software.

I, for one, do not like that idea because it means that two teams won't get into the eliminations unless they're called up as substitutes.

I'd rather see them have placebo robot(s) for the entire competition. Many veteran teams in the area have practice robots that could fiil the schedule. All 23 teams would get into the elims, and if a few veterains come and fill in, they could substitute for any rookies that fall by the wayside.

Another option I've seen done at RahChaCha, was to have the first seed select only one partner, and then sit out until the other side of the bracket produced a losing alliance. The #1 seed then adopted the lowest seed from that first eliminated alliance. So, every team got to play; the #1 seed didn't get a bye (but did have three robots); and one lucky team got second chance - with the #1 alliance to boot!!!


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