On board shock datalogger?
 

I have been playing with a couple of MadgeTech Shock101 dataloggers at work this week. It has gotten me thinking about putting one on a FIRST robot during competition but I am wondering if it would pass inspection. I was thinking it would be fun to mount one on our robot to record the impact forces during the match just out of curiosity. They cost ~$600 each and have a separate battery so that is two broken rules right off the bat but it would be used more for curiosity than any real functional need. Being self contained it wouldn't even interface with the robot in any way other than being bolted to it. Has anyone ever tried anything like this? Would the inspectors make an exception? I just thought it might be cool to actually study the impact forces during some matches but wonder if FIRST would allow it.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

That does sound like an awesome expirement! I don't think any of the inspectors would let it pass, but you never know. If not, you could always mount it on the robot after the season ends and try it out at one of the many off-season events, as they would be more likely to let you run it.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

If it in no way interferes with the function of any robots or adds anything that would help a robot win a match I don't see any reason why not.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Can't hurt to ask, or even to try and pre-clear it.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

If they don't, you can always use it during practice matches/offseaons

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

It would definitely provide some interesting results--what forces do we need to design for if xxx happens, and why? Combined with match video, you could have a pretty cool tool. Definitely check it out with the Q&A first, though. If they say it isn't allowed, use it at an offseason.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Yeah, but we all know that the hits aren't as hard nor as often on practice Thursday as they are later on on Friday and Saturday so the data probably wouldn't be representative of full on battle conditions. Also, we barely have enough $ to make the regular season regional. There are no off season events anywhere near here nor are there enough teams near here to have one.

I will wait for the new season rules to come out but if they are basically the same as previous years I might hit the FIRST Q&A or check with the inspectors at comp and see what they say. Just seems like fun to me and a chance to get some useful data that might be interesting to others as well. The major concern I would have is that I would see that we would be required to meet the weight requirements with it on board and they weigh about 15oz which is nearly 1lb that we would loose from our weight budget.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

I know that the programers on my team last year implemented a system using a small linux box and a usb flash drive to do some data logging. Don't know the details but here is a pic.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Would be nice to see some data with bumpers attached and removed.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

I would tend to treat this device as something like the on-board camera for video purposes. These are allowed as long as the video is not used during the match and you get prior approval (in writing) from FIRST Engineering.

You would have to comply with various rules. The device would have to have a self contained power supply and it would not be able to relay data back to the OI in any fashion. You would still have to meet weight with the device installed etc.

The data could be of great use to the larger FIRST community if it was published. So I think it would be approved under those conditions.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

I think it might fall under the Non-Functional Decoration rule - in that it has absolutely no interaction with any robot systems (aside from the obvious physical interface). It does count towards your weight, however.

Note that for quite a bit less $, you can mount an acceleration sensor to the robot (with a suitable G-force range) and use the RC to report back to the dashboard. You'd have to decide if you wanted continuous reports, or only when the shock exceeds some threshold. Unfortunately yhe KOP acceleromoter has a range that may be too small for this specific usage.


Don

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Hello all,
My name is Eric and I am a Technical Sales Engineer with MadgeTech, maker of the Shock101 data logger you are talking about. We received a Google Alert about your forum post, and are interested in assisting you with your project. If someone can point me in the direction of the rules you are referring to, I can see what we can do to make this comply with the letter and spirit of the law. I was previously in the RMA Engineering position, so I am familiar with the inner workings of most of our products, and I have a BSEE degree from the University of New Hampshire.
I am happy to post any information about our shock logger that will assist you in collecting impact measurement from your battles. We offer the Shock101 in 3 G-force models 5, 50 and 100G. The 5G is naturally the most sensitive and has the best resolution, but if you want to know "how hard did I get hit," then I suspect you will want at least the 50G model. You might also be interested to know that this product will also tell you orientation, since the accelerometers respond to the pull of gravity with a +1G reading. At the fastest recording rate (64Hz, I believe this is a log time of 45 minutes to full memory), you can see a sinusoidal response when you shake the unit back and forth, up and down, side to side. I will be happy to post screenshots from our software when I return to work on Tuesday.
You can download our software for free here:

http://www.madgetech.com/software/download

For the geek who wants to know everything, we also offer a shock logger that records pressure, temperature, and humidity (we call it the UltraShock)

http://www.madgetech.com/products/UltraShock

Both the shock and Ultrashock are built on the same PCB, and have screw terminals that can accept external power leads. We use a 9V Lithium battery, which can run the unit for about 7 days of constant logging (average current consumption is about 6mA)

We have in the past loaned out a unit for a smaller fee than the full purchase price (This was a children's book author who wanted to study the effects of heat, light, and other stimuli to the activity of mexican jumping beans. The Z-axis board of our 5G model was sensitive enough to detect the beans jumping, and the author was very pleased with the results).

We also carry an assortment of other loggers, all designed and manufactured in-house. One interesting comment made about our shock loggers is that in a time when many companies are outsourcing work overseas, we are actually selling our finished goods internationally (many companies use them for monitorning the shipment of sensitive goods. We offer a version that can run for 60 days on 6 D-Cells). Major categories of sensors include Temperature, Pressure, Humidity, Voltage, Current, Tension (using strain gauges), and dry-contact pulse output (for totalizers, useful for monitoring power consumption).

We are excited that your community is interested in our products, and look forward to working with you to find a solution that meets your needs.

Sincerely,
Eric Swanson
info@madgetech.com

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for your great post. It is very nice to see the vendor taking an interest in their products.

The FIRST Robotics Competition is perhaps unfamiliar to you; I strongly recommend you take a quick look at www.usfirst.org to get an idea about what this is all about. To save a little time, I'll just mention that it's tens of thousands of High School kids making 120 lb non-destructive robots. The "Game" for each year isn't announced until the first day of the season, which for 2008 is January 5th, and at the same time receive a Kit Of Parts, which is just semi-random parts, not a robot kit. The teams (well over a thousand, international) then have exactly 6 weeks to design, build & ship their robots, an extraordinarily short time.

So, the Rules will not become available until January 5th.

In the meantime, some of the students here may be interested in pinging you on their proposed applications.

========
To the FIRST community: OK, here you have a real, live BSEE from UNH who has the job of advising you on how to use his company's products. This is a LOT like how it happens out in the real world. You see, if the company helps you understand how their product will improve YOUR product (a robot, perhaps?) then they will probably be able to sell something to you. So, they hire "Application Engineers" just for that purpose.

Have at it, folks.

Don

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

That would be wonderful! It would be nice if the options are legal by FIRST. The manual for the 2007 game is http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=4094, but the robot requirements change every year, even if it's just a little bit. The basic thing to change would be the battery; it would be really nice to be able to run the Shock101 off of another electrical source. Our robots always run on a 12-volt lead-acid non-spillable battery. The season is only 19 days away! Thank you for your interest, and you might gain an entirely new group of eager customers (my friend wants to go into marketing, and we both are Girl Scouts, so I know...)! FIRSTers love new gadgets... and old gadgets, too.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Wow. That is customer service if I've ever seen it. I usually have to hound a company to get any sort of information out of them.

PLEASE take this opportunity, gather as much data as possible and share it with the community. It would be fantastic for all the FIRST students to be able to sit in physics class and have a good feel for what 1g of vibration really is.

Enjoy!

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

"The basic thing to change would be the battery; it would be really nice to be able to run the Shock101 off of another electrical source. Our robots always run on a 12-volt lead-acid non-spillable battery"

I checked with the engineer who designed our shock loggers, and he says they can take a 12V power input. The thing is that lead acid batteries, when fully charged are closer to 13.6V. Technically, this is about 0.1V over the limit, however, there are also some diodes in line (about 0.2V drop) so this should work.

I will reply to any other specific questions as they arise.

-Eric

Rules interpretation
 

OK, I read some of the rules, and it looks like FIRST is trying to encourage the use of Commercially available Off-The-Shelf technology (COTS), while at the same time limiting the amount anyone can spend on such equipment to make things fair.

From the 2007 rules, here are the sections I found useful:

Section 8: The Robot

8.2: Definitions.

Our shock logger falls under the category of COTS
As a company, MadgeTech can be considered a VENDOR

8.3.4.2: Additional Parts and Materials Rules

R51: The total cost of all non-Kit Of Parts items must not exceed $3,500.00 USD. No individual item shall have a value of over $400.00. The total cost of components purchased in bulk
may exceed $400.00 USD as long as the cost of an individual component does not exceed
$400.00.


The list price of a stock Shock101 is $599; we have in the past offered an educational discount of 25% off list which brings the price down to $449.25. Bulk discounts apply to purchases of 5 or more units, and we can also lease the loggers for a smaller fee.

2008 COTS Rules same as 2007
 

Hi all,
The new 2008 rules have been released, and as far as I can tell, the section on COTS parts remains unchanged from 2007 (listed in my last post).

Visit the following link and choose Section 8 on ROBOT for details.

http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...nt.aspx?id=452

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Chuck and Eric-

I just saw this thread, and wish I had seen it earlier so it could have been addressed before kick-off. This is a very nice idea, and I think that it has the potential to provide some very useful data and answers to a few questions that we have had for a while. I would urge you to contact FIRST directly (don't wait for the Q&A system - go straight to the source; PM me if you need to know who to contact) and work with them to see if this could either fit under the "non-functional decoration" rules or be granted a waiver. If all the data is logged on board and not used in real time during the match, and all the data were shared with the rest of the teams, I don't think that there would be an issue.

-dave

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Dear Dave,
Thanks for your interest, and I have sent you a private message.

In addition to our shock recorders, I suspect our DC voltage loggers would come in handy to many teams. We offer them in single, 4, and 8 channel units, and in ranges from ±100mV up to 30VDC (the 15V range would be ideal for monitoring anything from teh 12V battery on down).

http://www.madgetech.com/dynamic_sit...p?type=voltage

We also have pulse recorders that might tie in well with PWM's, ultrasonic ttransducers, or anything else with a dry contact output. The Pulse110 samples at 1KHz and totalizes the results at a user-specified rate of 1 second or slower.

http://www.madgetech.com/dynamic_sit...php?type=pulse

We have engineering units built in to the software (and even programmible into the logger) that automatically convert pulses into units that make sense to your application. One great example of this in action is our Wind Speed recorder, which is a reed-switch anemometer tied to a pulse110 preprogrammed to give average wind speeds at 10 second intervals:

http://www.madgetech.com/products/Wind110

All of these loggers can be communicated with using a single interface cable, which comes in serial or USB.

http://www.madgetech.com/accessories/IFC110
http://www.madgetech.com/accessories/IFC200

I look forward to answering any application questions that relate to our full line of data recording products.

Sincerely,
Eric Swanson
Technical Sales Engineer
MadgeTech, Inc.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Could you by any chance post FIRST's response so that other teams that have ideas that fit this "non-functional decoration" waiver deal (that may or may not be granted) could use it? I myself am interested in data logging but of multiple different sorts (software, voltage, etc.,) but its just hard sometimes to come up with that due to the $400 rule.

Re: On board shock datalogger?
 

Chuck and Eric,
I for one would like to see what data these recorders would bring to the competition. I will agree with Chris and Don above, if approved for use, they cannot be used for robot control, and should be included in weight.
However, the data may prove invaluable and I for one would recommend (if asked) that FIRST allow Madgetech to install devices on random robots of their choosing, at some of the regionals. If this co-operation were to be allowed, I would think the official rules might be bent to allow the devices to be installed on these random robots.