Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

I applaud you for asking a difficult question very graciously.

I didn't watch any of your matches, so I'm not able to address your question directly. I can offer this: other than being in the top 8 (well, maybe 10-12) at the end of qual's, standing is not a major factor in selecting a team as an alliance partner. Scouting by good teams will sort out teams according to performance (scoring, driving, reliability, etc.) without much weight given to standings. When it gets down to the "short list", there are some intangible factors that can influence a pick (performance in prior regionals, publicity, etc.). Selecting teams generally do have a game strategy and will select partners accordingly. I've witness several regionals where a team ranked at or near the bottom of the standings were selected just because they fit the strategy the alliance captain intends to employ.

Half of the teams are left to watch the elimination rounds and many of them wonder why they weren't selected. It's easiest to just say, "it wasn't our time" and enjoy the rest of the competition and awards. Don't let the obscure (and sometimes seemingly unfair) alliance selection process take away from your celebration of the regional. All the teams that put a robot on the field should feel a special sense of accomplishment.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Before I jump into the meat of this post, I must begin with some thanks and congratulations. Please take this to be my opinion, and perhaps the general opinion of the team.

Our outmost thanks to Warrior Pride of Hilo, Hawai’I, team 2024, and the Gunn Robotics Team, team 192, for inviting us to join their alliance. We made an excellent alliance, survived many mistakes, penalties, and bad breaks, and gave the #1 alliance a run for their money. Thank you guys for the most amazing and spirited alliance I can remember being part of.

Speaking of the #1 alliance, our congratulations to you guys. Teams 100 and 254, you guys had amazing hurdlers, and a great third alliance partner in team 115. We knew that if we make it into the finals, you guys will likely be waiting there for us, and that it would be an uphill battle. Thank you guys for some of the hardest fought matches of this regional, and congratulations on your victory. Although I don’t think anyone is particularly pleased with the circumstances surrounding the last match of the finals round, at the end of the day, you guys won. And worry not. At least in our book, you guys have made no enemies. Also, 254, if we accidentally opened your pneumatic release valve, our apologies. We never aimed to make contact outside the bumper zone, and we’re terribly sorry if that happened. Our intent was and always will be to play defense as allowed by the referee’s interpretations of the rules.

Our thanks must also go to the event crew and volunteers. Particularly, we’d like to thank Jim Beck (head of the regional committee, I believe) and Dr. Andy Hospodor (head referee) for taking the time to explain their decisions to us. I personally would also like to thank Dr. Eugene Brooks for coming to us with some words of wisdom after it was all said and done, which helped us think about this issue and post more clearly.

However, will the utmost respect we have for Jim, Andy, and the entire crew, we still disagree with their decision. For the benefit of those who did not watch the webcast, or did not hear the explanations from the officials, here are the events: (Note: this is how we understand and were explained what happened. Do not take this to be set in stone)

At the end of finals match 3, a blue trackball was up on the overpass, partially supported by the overpass and partially by one of the red alliance robots. The initial scoring of the match did not count that bonus trackball, leading to a score of red by eight or so (but definitely less than 12). We immediately pulled up the rules (looking at G14, which rules that ball should be scored in this situation), and went to the challenge box. After showing the rule to the head referee first, and then to several of the other referees, we waited for a result. We expected the regional to be over and that we would have won the match; after all, that twelve point swing should have put our alliance on top. However, as it was explained to us later, the referees have been calling that rule incorrectly all regional. As such, they decided to not change matches that have already been played, and replay the match. We played a fourth math, and lost it.

We disagreed, and still disagree, with the decision made to replay the match. In our view, the referees should have either decided that the call was incorrect, and award us the bonus points and the match victory, or kept the different ruling, and ended the match as-is. We do not think that replaying the match was the appropriate decision.

We will try and contact FIRST soon about trying to get some form of ruling about this controversial ending to what otherwise was an amazing regional. Should this have been the path? Are there any guidelines to event officials about what should happen in the event of a ruling mistake? The only thing we would consider requesting FIRST, and would really appreciate, is the opportunity to attend the World Championships in Atlanta this year. Congratulations to team 2024 for qualifying via their well deserved Regional Engineering Inspiration award. However, in the meantime, neither team 192 nor we qualify, and team 192 is not signed up for any future events.

Thank you for taking your time to read this post, and I hope it helps to clarify the events of yesterday.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Team 4 in '06 and '07 in So Cal and 294 just last week in SD comes to mind.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Thanks David! I do realize that the alliance selection could be as unpredictable as the lottery sometimes, I just wanted to find out if it is anything in particular that we can improve on next year.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

After taking some time after watching the regional yesterday, and watching quite a few matches from SVR that I had saved, I must say the following:

Even though the referees blatantly screwed up a call in finals match 3, they had also blatantly missed other calls all day. It was consistently horrible...

Through all that, the referees did the right thing in playing a 4th match. It would be unfair to not only be horrible but to be inconsistent with what they had done all day and all regional. They did the right thing in staying consistent with their calls and as per how the refs were ruling at 2008 SVR, the red alliance of 254 100 and 115 DESERVINGLY won the regional.

Congratulations to them, and lets try to not take ANYTHIGN away from their win.

While the blue alliance had one of the worst calls in FIRST put on them, the referees had missed several other calls, particularly in match 2 of the finals that cost the red alliance that win in that match.

Both alliances should stand proud. Maybe FIRST might give the blue alliance a championship bid, maybe not. Regardless of what happened both alliances should be proud, but lets try not to take away anything from 254 100 and 115s win in talking about the controversy.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Hey, regarding your question.

I'd have to say that getting chosen is an assortment of several factors. First of all, looking good is very important. My team, 115, was reliable throughout the matches. We may have lost a few, yet if we cap 6 laps and knock off 2 of the opposing balls it doesn't make us look bad at all. (this is assuming that the alliance captains don't only rely on rank to choose their alliance).

Also, I think there is a fair bit of PR/advertising to do with getting you chosen.

Anyways, hope this helps a bit. As I said earlier, I only do pit work so I don't really to PR/scouting.

Congratulations to both the winners and the finalists at SVR. 192, 8 and 2024 who put up an excellent show of gracious professionalism.


(haha here's a fun fact: 5 years ago poofs+115 won SVR. I guess we've come full circle.)

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Hey, guys. I'd just like to say one thing. As an FLLer soon to be in FRC, I watched the regional and it was a hard-fought contest. Although they played an extra match I think all six should be given Championship bids. However, I'd like to bring another example into play. If anyone remembers that Olympic controversy in '04, there was discord over the scoring. Referees are human, and we should accept our losses.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

We were also thinking why didn't we get picked, we had four of us just step back and say what do we have to offer a good alliance. We realized for a lap bot/herder we got awfully slow and can only do as many laps as a good hurdler but only get a quarter of their points. We realized that to be big we need to reliably have the ability to knock a ball off, get more than 4-5 laps per match, and play defense. We decided to throw together designs and ways of speeding up for Davis next week.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Well I guess if you have people talking to other teams and you can convince them that youd be a good alliance partner than they would pick you. The best way to get picked it to have a good bot and to let people know that you have a good bot.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

ya i know but as team 1516 driver i would like to say i was very shot down that no alliance had picked us. i felt that we would have been am amazing pick as a third bot. we averaged 5-6 laps and could place excellent defense and could knock the ball off ever time and stop the 12 point bonus for the other team. and if no balls were needed to be knocked off then we could do a total of 8-9 laps. i was sad but hey what can you do. nothing right. but we are excited for davis bc we got a huge trick up our sleeve and we are going to be even faster and easier to control.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Don't be too quick to blame this on the performance of
your own team. It could be that, in some cases, the teams
involved in picking partners could do better in their scouting
activities. I'll not mention any names here...

Eugene

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

With regards to alliance selections:

Sometimes you just have to know how to impress. After attempting to fix our hurdling mechanism for our first nine matches (out of ten), we finally conceded that we should try to make eliminations as a ball knocker / lap runner / defensive bot. We were playing against team 192, the #3 seed and eventual member of the #2 alliance. During that match, we estimate we cost them a hurdle or two, while running seven laps and knocking a ball off. We believe that's where we convinced them we make a fantastic third alliance member, and we took it all the way to the finals.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

Although I understand the pressure the referees are under, saying they are only human is a poor excuse. This isn't a matter of not seeing something because it happened quickly or not being able to perfectly recall what happened.
But here's my real question: Why was this not brought up before the finals?

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

I don't know. Were other teams unaware of this ruling, or simply did not care to change it, as maybe it never affected the final result of a match? I know that we brought it up the first time we saw it happen, but, from the cheering of the crowd, it seemed that everyone else thought it shouldn't be scored.

I personally approached the refs earlier in the regional about a hurdle not being scored when it should have, and even though it did not affect the final score of the match, it changed the future ruling.

I guess, let it be a warning to all teams: If you see the referees making what you think is a ruling interpretation mistake, point it out as soon as you see it. That way, maybe we can avoid unfortunate situations such as this one in th future.

Re: Silicon Valley Regional 2008
 

And for those of you with week 4 or 5 regionals, it is our interpretation of the rules that:
1. If a robot from Alliance B descores a ball belonging to Alliance A that was placed there by a robot from Alliance A and it ends up on the other side of the finish line (ie not in Alliance A's home stretch) it is an 8-point hurdle. Keep this in mind when attempting to remove bonus balls. This comes from the definition of hurdle.
2. Bonus balls must not be supported by a robot from the same alliance. Balls that are supported by only the overpass and robots from that alliance are scored as +12 in accordance with G14.