Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

After thinking about it for a night here is my guess. We will need to stack boxes on a counterscale. Some of the boxes will contain a weight of some type and the infra red will be hooked to that weight and we will need to find those few boxes to win. Probably wrong but that would be the FIRST time this year !!!!! ;)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I'd just like to say something pertaing to the trinity church reference everyone is talking about and national treasure the movie.

The trinity church they visit, and where they eventually find the treasure is the trinity church in NEW YORK CITY not in BOSTON (where I live 90% of the year).

Just something to keep in mind.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

new game piece:



I know that's irrelevant to the hint, but c'mon...that would be awesome!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

reading all the pages, everyone has it wrong, the coords point to the statue nothing else, just the statue, if you google Copley Square Statue, you will find the name the of the statue. You will find out that it is a statue of John Singleton Copley, a late 1700's american painter, but thats not very important, his name is however, look in his name (software guys!!) what do you see? well i see Singleton, a design pattern-"This is useful when exactly one object is needed to coordinate actions across the system." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singleton_pattern now, I have yet to figure out how to tie in the third number into anything, maybe someone can figure something out with this pattern.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

My summation based on reading 21 pages of information:

I feel that the first 2 numbers are most definitely GPS coordinates.

I also feel that the 3rd number is bearing.

Thinking back on old game hints, to be quite honest, you cannot get much out of them. Maybe the games name, shape of the game piece, and maybe some other piece of information.

I don't think this trend will stop ANYTIME soon, so, based on the 3 numbers I think you just have to take that as it comes. It points through 2 pillars at the globe cafe/hancock tower(which has counterweights). I expect to see something involving this stuff in 2008s game.

Other than that, I do not think you can pull much more information from this. Happy hunting everyone...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So I looked up John Copley on wikipedia and found that he was the painter that painted the famous painting of Paul Revere. Which made me thing of the beacons from the top of the church the "one if by land two if by sea".

I also like the trunkin reference with the visible and invisible lights which would use the CMUCam and the IR Board.

The third number referring to direction which looks to be pointing directly through the two obelesks to the Globe Bar and Grill is a great tid bit.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

This pattern or something similar was brought up in a previous post. Also, people who were talking about other things besides the statue were not referring to the first 2 numbers of the coordinates, the third number which is the compass bearing angle determines where it is pointing. We already know the coordinates are for the statue, the other locations such as Trinity Church and the Globe Cafe have just been things spotted around this area. There really is no point in only looking at the statue itself because the GDC would never make a clue that simple.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Could this one object be a signal received by the IR sensor???

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Or it could mean almost a circle. More evidence for footballs

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

wait, isn't singleton what they called it when you got just one tube last year?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well I just had to go and watch the "National Treasure" movie and I got a few clues from that... i'll post them with a spoiler format.... (highlight to read)

(also apologizes to anyone using a text browser.... try skipping this next part without reading it to avoid spoiling the movie...)

-------------=============Spoiler Start==============---------------

In the new national treasure Nicholas Cage kidnaps (or PresiNaps) the US President because he wants to know if there is really a secret book containing all the secrets of the united states.

this book supposedly is passed down from president to president and only they know it's secret location.

also supposedly this book contains the answers to many conspiracy theories..
the "Truth" about area 51, the Kennedy assassination and much more....

the president reveals the location of the book, and tells Cage's charecter that they will find what they are looking for there.. and then he says: "oh and do me a favor and check out page 47" (or something like that)

Later in the movie the President asks Cage if he read page 47, and if he (cage)could help him (the president) with the matter, cage answers something along the lines of "yeah, I can.. it will alter the world".

I swear on the pasta monster that I was completly distracted from the movie... every time they said 47 I was like... "Chief Delphi!!!" :ahh: and that last quote I was thinking "He's talking about FIRST!!" :eek:

--------------------========= End Spoiler =======---------------

I didn't even watch the movie... I was just looking for clues that could help solve the FIRST hints...
lol.... :D

-Leav

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

How's this?


Could they be infared numbers? The robots needing to navigate between something that is pure white, emits a little infared light, or emits a lot? I know that the infared numbers are not supposed to go below 300, but I've never seen what happens when you shoot extra light @ the sensors.....




Of course, I could always be crazy.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Fountain? Water Game???:p
No, GOOGLE MAPS point to the center of the square. The actual coordinates are slightly to the east of the center of the square.YES PLEASE! Nobvody so far has shown anyone what exactly lies at those coordinates! I have seen nothing that confirms there is a statue at those coordinates. Again, Google is just defaulting to the center of the square.


The coordinates given are accurate to better than a foot (0.000001 degree is about 10 cm at 42 degrees latitude), so what someone needs to do is get a USGS 7.5 minute contour map of the Copley Square area and locate this exact point; alternatively, GO THERE with a GPS unit and, within 15 feet or so, find where this point is.

The height above Mean Sea Level at that point is approximately 14 feet; if we're talking about 28 feet (Thanks Nuttyman54) then it could be the top of something 14 feet tall. I don't think it's 342 feet (the church is not that tall) and 342 meters is ~1111 feet, there's nothing that tall at those coordinates.

The John Hancock tower is across the street, I really do not think that's it.

The best I figure from USGS.GOV is that it's one corner of Trinity church, the NW corner, but I can't tell for certain, and having never been there...

So, who lives near Boston and is free this weekend?

-...-

Don



[EDIT]: 'holding the answer in their hands' (or somesuch): Hey, we're holding the IR Board in our hands![/EDIT]


.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Funny that was the name of our first robot (critical mass)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I know that most people are considering these numbers as coordinates, but I was thinking that they might, instead, be the start of a series.

I don't have Excel on this machine so extracting the next numbers in the series is ... erm ... difficult :p .

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

please
it has been 24 hours.
has no one in that area got a gps unit?
google is not accurate within about 50 feet.
i would like to know what is on the ground at the suspected coordinates.

please, will someone go make the measurement?

jerry w

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

from my experience with excel it won't find any meaning in this (can't blame it really... :) ) and will just copy the first cell into the fourth cell, the second to the fifth and so on....

if Google sets can't find anything... I mean... what can???? :ahh:

http://labs.google.com/sets?hl=en&q1...ms+or+fewer%29

-Leav

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

This is from one of our team's mentors from the LAPD bomb squad.

Zach, you need to go to the attached address. It will take you to program code. I found this before and did not think much about. I then revisited it and scrolled to the bottom to find those addition numbers in the clue. I believe this is what you are looking for. This may be GAPS related and are using an on-line map. Let me know what you think.

Roy

http://off.net/diary/kmls/20070918.kml

- A few minutes later

Zach, here is another key piece. You need to get your Internet guys and girls involved. When you go to this site I think you will see how things are starting to come together.

Roy

http://code.google.com/apis/kml/documentation/

Any ideas?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I don't think it's necessary to actually verify the coordinates with a GPS. FIRST would have assumed that everyone would access the coordinates with Google Earth or Maps, so they would have checked the location on the Google software itself.

Also, I'm not sure that the object at the coordinate location is the statue. From the pictures of the square I have looked at, the statue is further away from the church, in the direction of the Boston Public Library. The only thing near where the object should be is a large, antique lamp-post, with four globes. When you zoom in as far as Google Earth will let you, you can make out four roundish white objects around a middle dark area, which looks like the lamp post should from above.

So if the coordinates are pointing to the lamppost, the game might have to deal with round, globe shaped scoring objects, or posts like in the FTC this year.

About the third number. The two most plausible explanations that I have seen are that it is a bearing (possibly towards Manchester) and that it is the number of hours from when the email was sent until FIRST kickoff. I calculated that the bearing towards Manchester was approx 338 degrees, which is only slightly off. However, given the precision of the decimal, it would not make sense that FIRST would be so far off. Similarly, some posts have said that a bearing of 342 degrees from the lamppost leads to the Globe Bar and Grill. If that is so, such precision is unnecessary to simply point towards a large object several hundred yards away. The idea about the time to kickoff also seemed close, but I calculated that 342.242026 hours from when the email was sent (16:47:12 -0500 GMT) gave a time of Jan 4th, 11:01 and 43 seconds PM, about 10 hours before kickoff. I may be wrong, but I think that none of the ideas that have been presented for the third number are correct.

It is reasonably certain that the first two numbers are GPS coordinates (the chances of arbitrarily arriving at the coordinates of a lamppost in Boston at that level of precision are almost negligable). But we still need to come up with an explanation for the third number.

The only thing I can think of is that it is an angle above the horizon, or that it is a bearing towards something further away, which lies more directly on the path of 342.242026 degrees.

ANy other suggestions?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

That assumes Google displays the exactly correct coordinates and does not 'fudge' the views in any way. Neither is true, so there goes that theory....:ahh:

What do we do when we assume?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

has anyone, tried go further out than Manchester and see anything important out there??? (at 342.... degrees)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Can someone point out again from where you've all decided these coordinates land on a lamp post?

Google Maps suggests there's something there, but upon viewing pictures of the area on Flickr and other aerial photography from local.live.com, I think what we're seeing are some unfortunate people that don't even realize the amount of time and effort people are spending trying to figure out what they have in common with a FIRST game. :)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

While you are answering Madison's question, can you answer mine?
Why are you convinced the clue is actually pointing to more information. Maybe the clue is the answer.
We received GPS coordinates, correct?
Maybe it is just telling us we will be receiving GPS coordinates during the game.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

One of our mentors and his son, who is a member of our, team came up with this...
================================================== ===
Me and my dad did a little research and this is what we did and how we
came up with it.

1. I ran the 1st 2 numbers as latitude and longitude in Google Earth,
and it zoomed in directly on the statue of John Singleton Copley in
Copley Square in Boston.

2. We put the third number into Excel and changed the format into a
date. It gave us December 7, 1900, which on that date, according to
Wikipedia, said that "Max Planck, in his house at Grunewald, on the
outskirts of Berlin, discovers the law of black body emission." A black
body is "an object that absorbs all electromagnetic radiation that
falls onto it." This goes right along with the first clue & absorbing
infrared material.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I definitely agree with this statement... the clue is the answer. I'm not so convinced as everyone else that they are GPS coordianates, but I bet these three numbers will be critical to the game somehow. They look a lot like measurements of some sort, althought the negative in the second number kinda throws that theory off a little.... but anway, my point is that while everyone seems to think that these clues are pointing to more clues about the game, I think the connection will be a little more direct.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Madison makes an excellent point. We should not assume that any precision, short of the best possible from the given data, will be 'close enough' to correctly interpret this clue. In all likelihood this clue comes from the mind of a person who is concerned with the precise location (to the nearest centimeter or so) of an 8'L x 5'W x 5'H machine that is currently about 55 million miles from Earth -- and most of the time it is not that close! Angles measured to the millionth a degree are just dry routine for a person like that.

Trend of hint values using excel's forecast function
 

Here is the values given by excel using the forecast function:

someone asked for this but I cannot remember who.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

We looked up Singleton....

In software engineering, the singleton pattern is a design pattern that is used to restrict instantiation of a class to one object. This is useful when exactly one object is needed to coordinate actions across the system. Sometimes it is generalized to systems that operate more efficiently when only one or a few objects exist. It is also considered an anti-pattern since it is often used as a euphemism for global variable.

Will one robot be the guide for the others? Just because they gave us the receiver does not mean we will not get the transmitter in the kit.... :eek:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Just a random thought...

Latitude (42.349905) and Longitude (-71.076072) are angles in a spherical coordinate system. Bearing (342.242026) would be another angle.

Three angles... Tri-angle... Triangle!

I know this is nothing new in terms of concepts but it is a simple and more direct association.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I figure since this got entirely missed by most of the folks here, who haven't read the whole thread, I'll post it again. I did a little graphing, and found that from the Google Coordinates (knowing the GDC, they would write this clue around what we all have, which is Google Maps/Earth) are directly on the statue of Copley. At the heading of the third number given, from the statue of copley, you are looking in a clear path through two obelisks, at the Globe Cafe. In this setup, we have the three shapes of FIRST: Triangles, Circles, and Squares.

My earlier post has an attached drawing with the satellite photo and the lines drawn to show the heading.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

red soxs and infared...... i dont know, when i think of Boston i think of the redsox. and that has red in it. I dont know, just putting it out there.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

well i looked up the square, i came up with a photo of abunch of people against GE foods. possilbly the game could do somin with that,idk.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

A couple of thoughts about these numbers being used in competition:
1) Civilian GPS is only accurate to ~15 feet and it doesn't doesn't work very well indoors
2) To measure a position that accurate is nearly impossible because even assuming those numbers are in meters, you would lose most of the precision to the play of the gears.
3) The IR board cannot be given numbers, you can only give it a signal from a remote(or other ir device) and have it associate that with a specific output(4 total)

As for the exact nature of the numbers I think that the full precision in necessary, every other year the full hint is important and every piece has meaning so I don't think this year will be different.

I do want to know if anyone figures out what is at those exact coords. I also think that there is enough in that square that relates to the IR board and can be related to elements of a game the it makes sense that they are coords.

The attachment show the location of the statue based on google street view images, the coord. point to a location that is off screen toward the mini map.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Sorry it took so long to reply back. I think it is a lamppost because of these pictures.
http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/~clee/i...q_fountain.jpg
this shows the obelisks, and where the coordinates point behind them, there is not statue. A lamppost is visible, though.

Also, the wikipedia picture of the statue:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ySculpture.JPG
shows tree cover and grass nearby, which is not near the coordinates on Google earth.

Even if we are looking into the clue too far, and the coordinates are the clue, I fon't think that's a necessarily bad thing. The clue's primary purpose is to get FIRST participants excited about the game. At least we're having fun, right? :)

By the way, attached is the view that I think makes it look like a lamppost:
(notice the four white round objects, which I think are globes for the lights)

I may be completely wrong, but that's why we're discussing it on the forum.:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Personally, using Google Earth with coordinates points toward two people, since a "center shaft" for the post is not present. However, this doesn't really matter because regardless of whether it is a stature, lamp post or pair of people "it" points to the globe cafe through the obelisks with the third coordinate.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Okay, looking at the picture of the Statue of John Singleton Copley, he is looking in some direction, does anybody know whats in that direction? It's probably nothing but it never hurts to check.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Indeed: we may be driving ourselves crazy, and barking up the wrong tree (much to Dave's bemusement), but, well, it really is a fascinating process.

As for the photo of "four white round objects": That is an image of two people standing, side by side. Look at the shadows.
[EDIT] Kyle beat me to it[/EDIT]

Don

(Doesn't NASA have image enhancement software we can use to figure out what that is? Doesn't Dave work for NASA? Hmmm....)

.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

wait.... what if the first two numbers are the coordinates to copley square right. Then what if the third number is the distance from the center of the square that the object we are looking for is?? maybe

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

or it could be something that is just flying under everybodys radar because i dont think that the people from FIRST and NASA would just hand us the game on a silver platter.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So if those are two people, that means that the third coordinate is definitely a bearing. I think that we should definitely consider the GLobe bar and grill as a possibility for where it is pointing. However, I also think that we should keep looking further along the 342 degree line, to see if there is anything along a more exact path. I think that it doesn't make sense to include so many decimal places for the bearing for such a close object. Unless FIRST included six decimal places to indicate something else.

Distance from coordinates
 

The only question is the units for distance.

Is it miles, feet, meters, inches, etc.?

I think your headed in a good direction though.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Obviously FIRST thought it out so it could be anything. They made the number so that it could be GPS coordinates and they also made it so it can be anything you really want it to be.

Personally don't i think they are messing with your minds and so far they have succeeded. They are getting everyone so stressed out for nothing.

Re: Distance from coordinates
 

I agree this seems like a good idea!!!

I also think if it is the statue that we should look 342 degrees from where it is looking!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Exactly do you really think NASA. Let me say that again NASA, would make it that easy? Think about it its NASA some of the worlds brightest people probably work there. Even if they don't i think that they are way more qualified than us. Meaning they can make this thing very very complicated. They have probably spent months doing this hint.

Also read up people have mentioned the fact that what people think the game is and what it ends up being isn't even part of the truth.

Too bad someone doesn't know someone on the inside :P

Merry Christmas, Dani

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Please excuse me because I’m quite new to this forum stuff, but I think everyone here on Chief Delphi is taking this whole hint thing too literally. Two years ago for the “Aim High” game we were given the hint about seeing Mt. Everest’s “Green Heights”, or something to that effect. In the end we realized the hint meant seeing the green light up in the air for targeting the goal. The hint certainly didn’t me to go to Mt. Everest to see what you could see.

I’m not concentrating so much on where the GPS coordinates are pointing, but rather that they are pointing to a specific point on a map. Combine this with the IR board now. It might just mean that these IR boards are going to be pointing to a very specific point on the playing field.

I could be going off on a tangent at this point, but it also seems that the coordinates are pointing at a light post in the square. I could personally read this two ways. Either (A) it means that the IR boards are going to be used in place of the CMU Cams to find this specific point like the green lights. Or (B) it will be used in tandem with the CMU Cams to help track targets on the field like the green lights.

Don’t take my word for it though. I could never be 100% sure about any of my solutions to a game hint. The only thing I know for sure though is that the game hints never give you enough of the picture to figure out the entire game. They only ever seem to give you one very important piece of the puzzle to solve and that’s it.

But that doesn’t stop me from trying…:D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I would check nearby geocaches.. Maybe they hid something in one? Anyway, I do think that the third number is key to understanding this hint. What geographical features are exactly 342 miles/feet/inches/cm/km/lightyears away from that square? Where does the 342 degree bearing intersect said circle?

Also, let's think outside the box. The first two numbers are convincing coordinates, but what else could they mean? Also note, if you flip the coordinates you get to a point in antarctica. The last could be a temperature in kelvin? (around 156 f) Unlikely..

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

another possible/crazy insight on this clue...

someone mentioned earlier that the name singleton was part of teh statues name and that that was a term used for a single ringer scored...

maybe we're using ringers again? highly unlikely but who knows how trhe minds of the GDC work:D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Actually, as of noon GMT today, it is about 55,301,925 miles. Not that anyone is counting.

-dave

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Members of the GDC are members of FIRST. NASA is a sponsor for FIRST and helps in many areas. We have engineers and scientists that work for and with NASA. Dave Lavery is one of them. Some of the world's best and brightest minds in science, technology, and engineering are members of FIRST, mentors for teams, involved with the GDC. They also post in ChiefDelphi or read the fora. That is why this is such a special place. The hints are provided to the teams to give us something to do before Kick Off. If we choose to explore the possibilities, we can. Or we can spend our time doing other fun things. FIRST isn't making anyone do anything, they are offering hints for the upcoming game.

Many people here in the CD fora know 'someone' on the inside. They aren't out there somewhere, they are here among us and they won't give an inch regarding the clues. It's very cool.

Edit: Weird, I just posted after Dave. *sigh*

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Just speculatively, since the third number is most likely a bearing and has SIX decimal places of precision, I am leaning towards it pointing us to something far way. However, the bearing passes through the obelisks and Globe Cafe, which (although it doesn't use the six decimal points) is pretty satisfying.

As we pursue the bearing idea further, which will probably dry up this clue for us, remember to shoot your bearings twice. Once using magnetic north and the other using true north.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I just want to add,

To whoever thinks that we can use the IR sensor (without modifications, at least) to navigate, watch this video of it in use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUx2w3J_jDk
Note how the remote can be WAY off to the side. This means that it would be a lousy directional imaging system.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

The hancock tower is relatively close, within several decimals to: 342.24 ft. away from the coords provided by First.

Maybe it will have something to do with a tower.

Anyhow, I suggest full military incursion on this point to determine the exact meaning of the First clue.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I have attached two files.

The file titled 1 indicates distance from the point in miles and kilometers.

the further point is miles.

the file titled 2 has feet.

if anyone is willing they can draw scale circles on there. I don't have the software to do that.

Anyways,

See if you can decifer this.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

IR will most likely be used for communication because much finner spacial positioning is done with ultrasound. Also, assuming you could only use one IR board, only one side of your bot could do spacial analysis, which is not very helpful.

3D renderings of Copley square
 

Here are some 3D renderings of the square to help some of you out.

The two points are just a measure of the third value in feet from the coordinates

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

It seems that if you treat 342 as both a bearing and a distance in feet, it goes through the obelisks and almost directly onto the back wall of the globe cafe.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

ok, i have read all [most] of this thread and i saw the theories about the movie national treasure and the counterweight idea. I saw the movie tonight and thought i would put in my two cents: (this may or may not spoil the movie for you, its not that important though)

near the end there are four characters who have to stand on the corners of a giant wooden square that is balanced on a giant spike. They have to move around to keep the square balanced, and then they have to move together to try and raise up a corner so the guy could reach a suspended ladder.

Im not sure if i totally believe in the theory connecting the clue to national treasure, but if its true I would say that there would be something like that in the game, maybe four robots (using IR) that have to balance on a square in the center for the endgame.
Thats just what i think, its probably wrong though but just putting it out there:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

so i saw all these pages and havent read all of the posts but i looked up John Copely(the statue of the coordinates) and it says he was a painter who pioneered the use of pastels = colors = rainbow ir wire

i dont know if its just me but im seeing this color thing as a trend

maybe im getting too into it but oh well im having fun :-D

Edit:the green and orange subway lines stop at copely square if that means anything
-also MIT was first founded in the corner of copely square
-probably just useless info but its keeping me busy:-D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

when looking at Copley square it seems to me that the statue of Copley just happens to be facing MIT and that just happens to be where woodie flowers works. and as someone else pointed out the direction the statue is facing is just about 342 degrees. just a little food for thought

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

It was Montana's Green Heights btw.


The Green Heights (as you stated) was the elevated light.

The Montana link was attributed to a plateau (AKA: The Platform under the light) in popular theory that year as well.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

i saw this along with other posts about a t shape in the square which reminded me of a past FRC game... in 1995 the game was ramp n' roll and it was played on a T shaped field.... maybe ther'll be a different shaped field this year...:D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I don't think I have seen this picture on this forum yet. Via Google Maps the distance from the coord origin to the obelisk pair is aprox 100 ft and the obelisk pair looks a lot like goal posts. Then you have Globe Bar right behind, kinda like the globe (sphere) just scored a point...

I know, that is an awful lot like the 2006 game, but I think that game had a lot of un-used potential that may tempt the FIRST designers to explore scoring points with a ball.

A 100 ft field goal by a robot would certainly be a challange - wouldn't it Dave? :-)

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/271660

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Is there anything the three numbers have in common with each other?

also, is there anything in Copley square that is 11 ft. tall?

342.242026 millimeters = 1.12284129 feet

342.242026 centimeters = 11.2284129 feet

342.242026 centimeters = 3.42242026 meter

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Let's try this again...

I like the idea of longitude and latitude. I have no real guess what the third number means, either.

I could see myself being one of the Bostonians that got in his car in the middle of the night to go see what was at 42.349905/-71.076072.

I enjoy the brainstorming that's going on here, you guys out think me most of the time. Keep it up.

Matt

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Good image.


Edit: OMG!!! Can you ask for link that messes with your head even more by showing the place where the numbers take you on a map, the Copley Square statue with the 2 obelisks, the Globe Cafe, AND is shown through an infrared filter????
http://www.bbeaucherstudios.com/gall...p&cat=0&pos=27

:ahh::ahh::ahh:


Anyways, there are more places on the internet that will give us satellite pictures than just Google, so without further ado,

http://www.terraserver.com/view.asp?...vrl=-1&drwl=-1


By the way, According to The Terraserver link, At exactly 42° 20' 59.64" North & 71° 4' 33.60" West (which is the Degrees, Minutes, & Seconds equivalent of the first 2 digits FIRST threw at us, it lands us on the upper right hand corner of the design in the bricks in Copley Square. Not on a statue & not on a lamp post.

Go to that link, and hover over till you get the exact readings above in the bottom right of the page, and you'll see what I mean.
Edit: Never mind, I'll just attach a pic showing the connection.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I've just spent the last who knows how many hours reading all 25 pages of posts. there is some really good stuff getting going here.

i agree with previous posts that we probably won't figure out exactly what the game is from these hints. but we may get close. and the real fun is the fact that they got all of us brainstorming. we are all thinking about the game now, and it is good preparation for the fast approaching build season.

i would be very interested to know (as several people have previously said) what is actually at those coordinates. we have determined that we can't get very accurate placements from programs like Google maps / Google earth. and the point terraserver marks is different than the one Google marks.

it would be very nice if someone in Boston with a gps could go out there and tell us what is in that spot, to as much accuracy as civilian gps units can

all said, i really enjoy all the theories, and have a feeling some of this stuff will be right. if not, it was a lot of fun!!!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Maybe the number give have nothing to do with coordinates on Earth, but rather saying that we will be given coordinates on the field. The IR Receiver gets the code from the field element and tells the robot/driver where to place it in one of four spots. If the field element is placed in the wrong spot, it is minus points, if in the correct spot, the plus points.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

As stated before by someone, by reading this thread, I can tell you everything the game won't be because no one ever guesses even remotely close to what the game is or involved based on these hints.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ouch. What a sucker punch to everyone's ego who is guessing here. :(

I think statistically speaking, I would like to think at least one post early on may have something relevant as to what FIRST intends us to find out by giving us these seemingly cryptic clues with no perfect answer.

I recall in 2006 M. Krass guessing the TV show "Just Shoot Me" about the line in the clue "a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show".
Woodie mentioned "Just Shoot Me" during kickoff specifically from that thread here on CD, as if that was in the right direction of a guess, and come to find out, we had to "shoot" the game piece that year.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

yo if you refer to page 8 of the 2006 hint [edit: of the 07 game] thread, the hint was solved. and thats considering over 40 pages of guesses before the game was revealed. pwnt.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

hmm in spirit of guessing of water games, thats a statue of John Singleton Copely. He drew a painting entitled Watson and the Shark depicting Brook Watson fighting a shark attack. roflcakes water, i love how we're always wrong year after year, but i still love to imagine an Ice Game

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Alright, I ran a few excel functions on these numbers. I hope this file helps someone or atleast helps fuel another train of thought.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

This can only mean one thing - upgraded processor to 16 bit (32 bit double accuracy) to get 9 significant figures. http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/im...lies/yikes.gif
:yikes:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

lol. it probably means nothing but its worth a look over (I hope). Maybe you would like to add to my list?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

More stuff to play around with:

http://www.panoramamagazine.com/pano...er%20Fountain/

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I'm fairly certain NASA has got more important things to do with a few month's time than come up with game hints for FRC ;)

Your point about numbers being able to mean anything is accurate; however no thought is required to come up with numbers that can mean multiple things. If you give it enough thought, you can come up with a relationship between any numbers, objects, people, places, etc, whether real or imagined.

Personally, I get more amusement out of people's reactions to the "game hints" than the hints themselves. I prefer not to think about them because the possibilities are so broad that even if you nailed it right on the head, you'd have no clue until kickoff...so why agonize over it for 2 weeks?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Going back to the unofficial clue that was given to us earlier about the stock market, jello, K'nex blocks, and gerbils.

Stockmarket - Rises and falls
Jello - Comes in a box
Gerbils - Live in a cage shaped like a box
K'nex BLOCKS

Then adding the theroy of the counterballance from this clue, a game about stacking blocks on a counterballanced centerpiece that could tip would connect these two clues. The only part I now longer understand where it would come into play would be the IR sensor. Maybe it would be used to control something such as counterballance control that has to be controlled by the human player.

Of cource I could have these clues completely out of wack and my game may not even relate to the actual game released soon but I feel after reading 26 pages of posts that I should post something:D .

-Sam

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Eh, it's just how it usually ended up for the past 4 seasons. Maybe this one will be different? I guess we'll all find out. This isn't to say that I don't guess either on my own, I agree with the GPS coordinate and bearing theory although I don't have a strong feeling or belief on its relevance yet.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

#2 is FANTASTIC!!! for it also gives some meaning (in this case) to those two great big buildings south of the square that spell out EI. Question is what EXACT meaning can we draw from that???

That said, with a black body being an electromagnetic 'black hole' (practically, not technically, just relatively speaking), I might be curious about what other voids we would be filling in this game.

-Joe

PS: Curious question to the people with even closer ties to FIRST on here: do you guys or do you know of any FIRST admin that ever prints out these extremely long threads with ideas to what the year's game hint leads to and post them on some wall (or at least the 'good/funny/completely off-base' ideas) and then come back to them every once in a while just to have a good laugh??? :p I can only imagine...:rolleyes: I hope you guys are enjoying yourselves after 370 something posts... and I think we have yet to see the person stand at the said GPS location (I'm assuming that picture (proving the feat) will land itself a nice place on the wall as well). *shrugs* That all said, wOOt! for extreme FIRST dedication. :cool:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I might opine that anything "after Dave" is less weird than before.
Now that is interesting. Relevant, dunno, but interesting that MIT has such a tie to Copley Square.
I agree, but certain people who work for NASA, on the other hand.... (you know who you are!)

You know, this is almost as much fun as the build season!

Don

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ok, I'll admit that I've not read the entire 26 pages of posts, so please forgive me if this is in there somewhere.

One of the major buildings on Copley Square is the Hancock Tower. This is actually the new Hancock building - there is an "old Hancock Tower" nearby. This older building, as known to Bostonians all over the world, has a beacon or light on it which changes color between red and blue depending on the weather forcast or how the Red Sox are doing.

Now we all have these IR thingys...

So, here is my guess about part of the game: There wil be a large IR emitter in the center of the field that will signal robots that some part of the game is active (like scoring in a goal). There will be a visual signal (a red or blue light) for drivers, but relying on it will put you at a disadvantage.

Oh yeah - It most likely will be difficult for teams to build and test and will be a great pain for the field crew in the first set of regionals... But hopefully not.

-Mr. Van

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Could this be in some relation to the IR chip that we got? People mentioned something about blind driving using the IR camra to navigate.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Found here: http://www.dslreports.com/faq/boston/all

I saw that too, but idk. Sounds cool though.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Hmmm... Signal Lights... That got me thinking...

Another famous signal that happened in the vicinity of Boston (and the Clue location) was Paul Revere's famous "One if by land, and two if by sea;"

Both: Paul Revere's house, AND the Old North Church (where the signalling occured) are within 2 miles of the clue Lat/Long. None are a bearing or distance of 342... but maybe that's the direction that the signal was made to....

This idea is consistant with the IR Clue board.
It can distinguish between 4 different IR visual signals (codes)

What if the field transmits a different IR code to all the robots based on where something is coming from, or going to?

eg: 1 if by North, 2 if by East, 3 if by South or 4 if by West.

If the field is square, this could be the side that has double points, or a penalty side (like Last years VEX game)

Phil.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

While on the street view on google i noticed an amphibious vehicle being used for tours. i think the companies name was boston duck tours and there logo was by land and sea. and boston is also known for paul reveres ride. the thought of the lights in on IR controller being similair to paul reveres signal seems plausible too.


Just a though


ahaha and another one of my paranoid ideas


Infared radiation gets trapped by ozone which causes global warming. this causes the ice caps to melt flooding the planet.

maybe we have to build an amphibious robot where we use the IR to activate something that "floods" the field.

and then Al gore comes and makes boring speeches

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Why does that sound somewhat like...Truckin'?

"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see..."

Or, other times I can barely SEA.

Hmm...

:p

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

OK Steph, you can claim the Greatfull dead connection, but I'm calling the Paul Revere connection (Drat, already caught by maclaren)

I just mapped the two sites that I mentioned before about Paul Revere: His House and the Old North church where the signal was sent from.

Guess how far his house is from the church? 343 yards (within measurement error of 342.242)

Also, guess what the bearing is from his house to the church? Pretty dang close to 342 degrees.

Here is the Google Earth picture showing the distance in yellow and the bearing of 342.242 in magenta (or is that cyan.....)

http://www.gearsinc.org/images/oneifbyland.jpg

And just to be helpfull. Here is longfellow's account of the incident:

Written April 19, 1860; first published in 1863 as part of "Tales of a Wayside Inn"

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,--
One if by land, and two if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend through alley and street
Wanders and watches, with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,--
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall,
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent,
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,--
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse's side,
Now he gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns.

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet;
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.
He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the $@#$@#$@#$@#,
And the barking of the farmer's dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, black and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadow brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,---
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;=
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,---
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Hancock Tower
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...530202abbbc9d#
Made by Google last March

Berkeley Building (old Hancock Tower)
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehou...&prevs tart=0
Made last August


Put them in Google Earth and float around. =)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Just bringing this back in, since we're talking about Paul Revere again.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I'm really hoping for a Game Hint #3 to come out soon.....for the last three years there has only one hint, this year there's been two hints so far, but I'm thinking we might be getting a third before the end of the game hint season. Things just don't seem right in twos, they seem better in threes :)

So, if we get getting clues at the current rate, we should be expected the third hint either this coming Friday or Saturday!!

Can't wait any longer! 13 days til Kickoff!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So (not having gone thru the middle 20-something pages of suggestions) -- has anyone actually gone to Copley Square and looked for themselves to see if anything is there? For all we know the clue is there. (Or do I have to do it Wednesday morning on my way to work?)
_________________________
I know I exist, because the automatic toilet flushes when I stand up.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

there is no way that these are values fo latitiude and longitude else it would be formatted as thus, / you dont have a third part so that third value kills off that idea. gentleman this game has nothing to do with boston (in reference to the lat..lon. theory) you have all wasted far to muck time on this matter wen need to look at these as values for the board....not just rest values but operating values ie when it is hooked up correclty.

once again this is not latt and lon
unless there is a mmagic third value that represents elevation which ther eis not

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I hope they make them with LEDs so they have little eyes that light up...

from Dave hex bug post....hmmmm....LED's.....

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Out if the near infinite number of lat/long coordinates, I find it hard to believe that two numbers with 9 significant figures just happens to land us in a plaza of a large city.

Besides, compared to last years hint this one is pretty strait forward.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

yeah lets pretend that post never happened...things have just been uber stressfull for me these last two days, personal reasons, but i should have never lashed out at my fellow roboteers like that and for this i am truely sorry.

i hope you will accept this as a formal appology

Ethan Banks

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

*cough* XKCD #240, Dave's Signature about things not conforming to our expectations... I dunno, I could be just paranoid, but whenever we have reached this point, we usually arrive at kick-off dead wrong about the entire concept (darn that circle with the #5... it should have been 8!).

At least with the Paul Revere thing we are really thinking outside the box thinking outside the box (yes, times 2, if we have to we will go 3 boxes).

All that said, we could be right on the nose and Dave/Anybody else could be scheming to divert our attention.

-Joe

Edit: There are far too many connections between where the first two numbers point to on GPS and where the third number points to from there (Copley Square and Paul Revere's Residence respectively). Then again, there is what I have said above... and the circuitrunner could be right... shall we look into other possible meaning for these numbers... somehow, knowing this request has been made before to no result???

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Resist the temptation!!!!!!!!!!!:yikes: :eek: :ahh: :eek: :yikes:

(as in resist losing focus)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

The game hints are hints. If they aren't solved or they are solved, there is still going to be a Kick off on January 5 that will reveal the game. Every year, there is an aha moment during the reveal, as students and mentors who have tried to figure out the clues, 'get it'. This year, there are lots of perspectives and suggestions but nothing is really wasted. There's more in these threads that just solving the clues. There is a common bond and there are opportunities to communicate and work together. 5 pages from now, we may be off on another tangent, thinking, puzzling, and communicating with each other. If you find yourself losing your temper or your humor, don't post until you've taken a break and regained your humor and perspective. These are hints. Nothing more, nothing less.

.02

P.S. My daughter just put in - Remember The Titans - I'm going to watch it. :)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I had a fun and most likely useless idea strike me earlier:

Following the Paul Revere line of thinking, what if "One if by land, two if by sea" refers to the number of clues?

One if by land = previous years when we had a land game
Two if by sea = WATER GAME!!

(Yes, I'm kidding. I had a good laugh at myself.)

I really do think the fact that we've been pointed to Paul Revere and his famous saying in the year we get two clues instead of one points to something, but I'm not sure what it is. Any ideas?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

^^ thats it!!!!!^^ hahaha...

maybe the saying is refering to some sort of remote siginal that'll be sent out to our bots during the game, which would link our new sensor into all of this...