Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Sigh...did you read the thread? We've already come up with those, other than the time one. (And yes, the coordinates are the statue's location.)

Hmm...What happened at 5:48 AM on 12/7/1900? Anyone know? I don't.

And I understand reading 500+ posts does take a while. I think pages one and two have the coordinates mapped. (As a side note, they've also been placed in the Antarctic and in Greenland, and mapped on Mars.)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

A few million people woke up, and found nothing major in the headlines.

This is a thumbnail view from an online microfilm archive of the New York Times of 7 December, 1900. I don't want to pay money to read the entire thing online, when I could just go to the library tomorrow and read it (or one of the local newspapers) on their microfilm machines for free.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Actually, if I've figured anything out, it's that the coodinates do NOT correspond to the location of the statue, which is located further east - within the trees. The object that has appeared in the imagery is likely two or four people that were simply standing there - it's definitely NOT the statue (or the "quad" lamppost that was also talked about).

Beyond that, I'm pretty much sold on the 3rd number being a compass bearing, since it lines up pretty well with the grid the streets around there follow. Clearly, the idea is to stand somewhere in the Square (not 100% sure of where), look in that direction (towards Boylston St), and see something meaningful.

Oh, and the real name of the restaurant being mentioned at length is the "Globe Bar & Cafe" (vs. "Globe Bar & Grill", or "Globe Cafe).

Also, it seems like it's a strong hint that perhaps floating-point math will be an issue.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Does anyone in Boston have a GPS unit or what?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Nobody has gone out there with a GPS set - or at least nobody has reported HERE about having done so - so what we have is whatever web sites give us (which can be inaccurate, and don't necessarily agree 100%).

For what it's worth, I pieced together part of a USGS topo quadrangle (data taken off Terraserver; I have attached a small portion here), and used the tick marks to estimate where the location is (marked in purple). Then I calculated where the spot across the street would be (marked in blue), using the bearing. It comes out about 100 ft east of the dominant location we've seen here. As far as I can tell, there's nothing special there (does anybody know better?), and across the street at that point there's just a Wendy's and a Burger King.

Because that location was so meaningless, and maybe that source isn't any better, I'm inclined to accept the "standard" location we've seen here anyway. The view from there has several interesting items:

1) Tortoise and Hare statues, which I have finally figured out are right in front of my next item.
2) Fountain/pool (coupled with the hint that water might be involved, this seems meaningful).
3) Dual obelisks (looks like a goal post).
4) Globe Bar and Cafe, across the street - although as best as I can tell, the line-of-sight through the obelisks really points to the place next door (to the west of it).

That's my bottom line, at this point. :]

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Who said anything about a human player? I was talking about Karthik!

It would be cool to have the emcee inside a gamepiece. Imagine the play by play commentary!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Sorry, I don't have a GPS unit, but I do have a camera and the gumption to dare Copley Square on New Years Eve afternoon. Unfortunately I forgot to bring a parking spot but I managed to stop at a No Stopping Any Time zone (behind a police car!) and take a picture. They are setting up for ice sculptures all over CS and especially in the All Important (42.349905, -71.076072) spot.

The photo is from St. James Avenue, facing generally northwest, between Trinity Church (on the right) and John Hancock Tower (behind to the left). The crosswalk sign is for the Trinity Place crosswalks. Boston Public Library is under the crosswalk sign. Old South Church is the building in the center with the tower. The locus point is to the right of the trailer full of ice, within the fenced in area.

I don't know what they were doing within the fenced in area. They should have (by this time ~2 pm) have had the makings of an ice sculpture. The blueish tower near the right side of Old South Church and the left of the man taking the picture at the foot of Trinity Church's steps I believe is a temporary light tower.

Optimizer: I'm basing the GPS location on Google maps, only because of their sponsorship with FIRST and they allow numbers for location. Though, oddly, Microsoft's maps.live.com has a clearer aerial view, and the four "bird's eye" views too. (I'm assuming that link works.)

The only true location would be by on-site GPS. (Presumably the FIRST Hinters would be using the same GPS points and thus have the same error.) You are right that the Globe Bar and Cafe is not centered on the dual obelisks. They do have a website! (Their menu font needs a bit of tweaking.)

There is nothing in the plaza in front of Trinity Church. The Tortoise and Hare statues are towards Boylston St. Maybe this is the game of Nothing -- sounds very Existentialist (or, for you young 'uns, very Seinfeldish).

I am surprised that I'm the only one (in the Boston area, for those out-of-town wiseguys) that does site visits. Maybe they purposely posted the Hint after all the college students went home for break so no one would actually go to the site. I couldn't find the quote I wanted but I guess Mark Twain can say it no other way....
______________________
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

December 7, 1900 (Wikipedia) - Max Planck, in his house at Grunewald, on the outskirts of Berlin, discovers the law of black body emission.

Squinting at artdutra04's NYT front page, I see it was at approximately 11:48 in the morning (Berlin local time). It was a Friday. Go ahead, prove me wrong. :)

(Actually, artdutra04, if you want the news of December 7, 1900, you have to look at the next day's paper.)
_________________________
It is not the possession of truth, but the success which attends the seeking after it, that enriches the seeker and brings happiness to him. -Max Planck

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

O.K. Now my brief two cents of input.

1) GPS coordinates and compass bearing plus Hint 1 - are they re-introducing the IR tracking beacons?
The GPS location may not be the Statue of John Copley, but lets follow that train of thought for a moment.
2) He is standing on a pedestal in the middle of an open area. Maybe we can expect a pedestal in the middle of the playing field.
3) Looking up John S Copley in Wikipedia - one can find his paintings. For the late 1700s the colors are stunningly brilliant. I expect illuminated targets of several colors.
4) Reading Wikipedia, I followed the link "The Defeat of the Floating Batteries at Gibraltar, September 1782" and read about that. It appears the British developed the innovative "hot potato" to destroy the barriers. I don't know about any burning hot objects, but "hot potato" would be a good contest name. (Have a game piece the opposing team(s) don't want)
5) I think Hint 1 is pretty much self contained. FRC will allow teams to use a TV remote along with their playstation controller. The one exception would be the use of "standard" IR signals as part of the playing field. These "standard" signals would match a particular remote control included in everyone's kits. Thus teams could train their bots to the standard playing field signals.
6)Too bad the compass bearings aren't pointing to McDonalds and BurgerKing The contest would be flame broiled vs. fried.
7) I much like the idea of December 7th 1900 being the discovery of black body radiation. That seems to fit with the IR controller.
8) I doubt water will ever be used since owners of large open buildings rarely like the idea of water running around their floors as teams debug their bot's water handling capabilities. Water also wreaks havoc with electronic circuits.


EJ:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

My apologies if this has been covered (long thread, I did search this thread for beacon and didn't find any talking about Beacon Hill). The location and direction point towards a section of Boston known as Beacon Hill. At one time the hill did have a beacon on top of it. The wiki for Beacon Hill says that it was mostly torn down to fill in Back Bay to allow for more land for development. Could the game be either assembling a hill or taking down a hill or moving around game pieces to fill in holes/gaps the robots have to go over, i.e. building land bridges?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I think the game hint is very simple and all of us are way over analyzing it. It probably has something simple to do with something on the co ordinates/bearing. Note: I am not saying that we should not brainstorm and analyze but this is what gives GDC their laughs I guess. :yikes:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

A Wendy's you say? How very peculiar...

Anyone remember the name of the FIRST competition in 2003? :)
http://www.reuters.com/article/domes...50374220071218

But there couldn't be a possible link there... now could there? ;)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well, here's a thought -
could the field/field element(s) be relatively simple and become more complicated with options/opportunities presented for teams to take advantage of or not.

Rack 'n' Roll was like that in several areas, in my opinion. Lots of levels of involvement during design/build and during the competition among the alliances.

This is neither here nor there but all the spires around the area of Copley Square would invite a great ring toss or stacking game. (I know, this has been suggested. :))

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

[Homer Simpson]Mmmm.... Wendy's and a Burger King[/Homer]

C'mon, I'm tracking down a possibility that if you mix up the letters in "black body" it comes out to an obscure 14th century (infra)red-haired poet Abby L. Dock that wrote sonnets about a tortoise and a hare playing in water, on a Friday morning. C'mon, ask your English teacher about her! If he/she denies it, then you know it's a conspiracy! It all fits, I tells ya!

But I'd rather have a Whopper.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Anything is possible. Let's say we know that the game object is a ball like 2006. Even then, the most we can do is brain storm robot ideas but not much more than that because we are not certain of anything. Besides, the real key to even thinking of a good robot design is in the rules book. This will never be seen until after kickoff.

If I had to guess, an object around those co ordinates represents the game object or the field and it is something relatively simple. I have not kept up with this thread or the game hint mostly because this year I do not feel the need to decrypt the game hint. But I hope all of you are having fun :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Wouldn't a globe big enough for something or someone to move around in fulfill the gerbil hint?

And I love the traffic cone / maze idea! After all, Boston has been the home of the "Big Dig, " which has meant traffic cones for years and years!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I can't believe nobody found this yet:

The old John Hancock Building has a weather beacon at its peak, which somebody around page 11 connected to the 342 number. Well according to Wikipedia, this beacon flashes Red and Blue!

Could be two new lights and each signals a different portion of the game (and scoring).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

342.242026 is the Molecular weight of C11H17Cl2N3O3S

(3-methyl-2-methylsulfinyl-imidazol-4-yl)methyl N,N-bis(2-chloroethyl)carbamate

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Boston's "Big Dig" officially ended Monday night, at least in terms of all the contracts.

Now that's an obscure reference!

We've played in Manchester and Boston, and both arenas have had water all over the floor, with the owners' approval. (Ice skating rinks!:D )

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

It might be hard to guarantee every competition location and kickoff location to be okay with having large amounts of water in the area, as well as the fact that fields must be buildable by teams. Water makes things hard. Not many teams could find a spot to stick a giant aquarium...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

342 is Babe Ruth's life time batting average in round numbers, maybe if you calculate the number to full precision it is 342.242026.

Played for the Bosox too .. and Fenway park is right next to Copley Square.

Could it be a baseball based contest?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

If by "right next to" you mean 6 miles, then sure.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=e...9911&z=15&om=1



And, I just remembered this past weekend the only obscure reference I recall that someone, who is named Woodie, made about Boston.

Quoted from both here:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1997/techday-0611.html
& also paraphrased here:
http://bostonphoenix.com/boston/news...s/01710000.htm

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

That has been discussed and Elgin provided a picture, woohoo!
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=383

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I guess I should have left the MIT campus more when I lived there. But I do know what a Smoot is.:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Might be quicker via Comm Ave and Kenmore Square; the area around Berklee gets kind of messy. Depends also if my boss is driving or not :)

Ha! I once changed a floor plan to dimension in Smoots, in honor of a boss I once worked for who went to MIT. He was not amused.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

The 'hot potato' idea is really interesting. What if the game piece has different modes that change what score it gets or what you need to do with it, and we use the IR to determine what mode it's in?

Also, going back to the K'Nex in the first hint, what if we sense whether a piece is red or blue using the IR, then connect it to another piece of the correct color to score... But we could lose points if we incorrectly identify it, of if it changes.

Thinking a bit further outside the box (and my appologies in advance if this has already been suggested in the past 7 pages of this thread), or maybe inside the box- we had tetras for triangles, ringers for circles, so the 08 game could use cubic or square game pieces. It could be a game of stacking cubes, but you could include the gerbil hint if our task were to assemble "cages" out of square game pieces. Or maybe we'd have to put a color-changing "hot potato" into a box.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Maybe. But do you remember the length of the Harvard Bridge, measured in Smoots (without looking it up)? :)


-dave




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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I know one thing:
Smoot = (1/(364.4-ear))*(Harvard Bridge length)

<Yes, I looked it up>:eek:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Oh dear... he changed his signature once again... at least the middle line...

:eek::confused::ahh::confused::eek:

Oh well... less than two days to go... we'll know soon enough

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Then you would be, within the formal definition associated with the cited precision, incorrect.

Yeah, I am a stickler for details. But that is what details are for. :)

-dave






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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Interesting!
I do believe the formal citation, from memory is, 364.4 plus or minus one ear. The plus or minus was to indicate the uncertainty of the measurement.

So, if precision is what we are after, then the the original determination of the measurement was flawed and can not be used as a basis for a precise answer.
I must say, I agree about detail. May favorite expression regarding this subject is: " Success lies in the details".

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

364 sounds close, within an ear or two. Hmmmmm... I wonder if the metric equivalent is 342.242026 CentiSmoots

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Speaking of measurement precision. Can we assume the number of significant digits in your hints are no accident?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I looked up the definition for stickler. I think Dave is playing with us again.
From the American Heritage Dictionary
Stickler:

1. One who insists on something unyieldingly
2. Something puzzling or difficult.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well, if a Smoot is about 5 feet 7 inches (or 1.7 meters), then you have a discrepancy of 22.2 (sig figs included) Smoots. That is, if the 342.242026 number is a length in Smoots. That's a difference of 37.7 meters, or 123 feet. Not quite an ear, unless we have an unclear definition of 'ear.'

But if there was some standardized metric form of Smoots, maybe we could come in closer.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ok I write this quick.
1. What is a Smoot?
2. What Gerbil hint?
3. What if the game were :o 'Smoot Scoot'?
4. Too bad we can't ask someone from a Boston historical building about the square.
5. YES!!! Three more days!!! and we finally find out if our thoughts were right!!!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

etc, etc, etc...

::sigh::

And this is why I believe in the Chaos Theory (AKA: Butterfly Effect).
But it should be renamed The Dave Effect in all fairness to the inspiration of this theory here in FIRSTworld.

Just as a butterfly's wings has the potential to cause a tornado halfway around the world, Dave's postings has potential to add at least 100 more pages to this evergrowing thread... and influence a Sherlock Holmes type mind-set to anyone who reads his posts.


Congratulations Dave.
You now have a Controlled(?) Chaos Theory named in your honor.

Anyone care to log onto the FIRST wiki site and write some entries on that topic any time soon?? :rolleyes:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Dave does not control chaos. Dave inspires chaos. Inspiration is what FIRST is all about. :)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ahh... I stand corrected, and will agree to that one... For sure. :cool:
Thanks!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

The original measurement was given as "364.4 Smoots, plus or minus an ear." With this, we knew both the precision and the tolerance of the measurement. The original measurement was accurate, within the tolerance specified (noting that tolerance was determined by the equipment used for the original measurement - a unit of precisely one Smoot). The citation of "364.4 Smoots, minus an ear" would be incorrect, in that it implies a precision that does not actually exist. Furthermore, it fails to provide any indication of an acceptable tolerance (it is noted that it could be argued that the "minus an ear" phrase could be an indication of tolerance, but in that case it over-constrains the measurement by doubling the tolerance requirement - which I would find to be intolerable :) ).

Why do we care about whether Smoot's ear is added or subtracted from the length of the Harvard Bridge? Because both precision and tolerance are important concepts within the engineering world, and worth understanding. Their use (or lack thereof) enables us to clearly communicate when accuracy is critical, and when "close enough" is "good enough." And in the real world, that knowledge translates very quickly into dollars (saved or required).

Who says they are off tangent or side-tracked? I find the discussion of centi-Smoots one of the more interesting ideas in this whole thread. :)

-dave




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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Here is my stab at it. I think most people are correct in saying that the first 2 numbers are coordinates which take you to Copley Square. The last digit is actually an elevation. The question is in what units?

Well, I believe it is in Cubits. To make sense of it all, 342.242026 Royal Egyptian Cubits is about 587.391732 feet or about 58 stories. What is at an elevation of 58 stories in Copley Square? Well....this:

A mass damper system in the John Hancock Tower

Welcome back dynamic stabilization....

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I wonder what those game hint numbers translate to when using smoots... if anything...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I see your point and must acknowledge, in fact, my equation was in error. :mad:

I had made an assumption, for which I must apologize, that the weather conditions on that October day in 1961 (class of 1962) would have been quite warm. You see, where I live on the west coast, October afternoons can easily be in the mid 80's to upper 90's. I chose to use the "Smoot = (1/(364.4-ear))*(Harvard Bridge length)" equation assuming there would have been quite a bit of expansion of the bridge due to the temperature. Not knowing along which axis the ear was measured, I assumed,(there I go again), it's length. Approximating a 5' 7" tall man's ear to be 2.25", I figured this would be close enough to account for the assumed expansion. I then subtracted this amount, incorrectly I might add, to account for the assumed expansion. When in fact, instead of subtracting it from the divisor, it should have been subtracted from the product to yield a length that had been corrected for temperature. In other words, if my assumption was correct, the equation should have been Smoot = ((1/364.4)*(Harvard Bridge length)) - ear.

Now, based on your need for accuracy and tolerance, the equation would be:
Smoot = (1/(364.4 +/- ear))*(Harvard Bridge length), correct?

There, have I smeared enough mud on this to cover my error???

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I Havent Been Really Keeping Up on Here & Dont Want To Go Through 40+ Pages But... Has anyone Mentioned, Copley Square is near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. If the lat/lon is of a statue there, maybe the 3rd number is the heading that points from the statue to the finish line?

MIT was also founded here, prior to moving to Cambridge.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Ahhh, I think we may have identified the source of the confusion. You had assumed that the length of "an ear" in the original measurement was a 2.25 inches, the size of a five-foot-seven-inch-tall man's ear. However, in this particular case, the original lore reveals that the "ear" is allegedly the width of the ear hole in the football helmet that Smoot was while lying prone upon the bridge. So, an approximation of 1.0-1.5 inches may be more correct. This interpretation may be further supported when considering the effects of the local weather at the time the measurement was made. A football helmet would be a suitable form of protection against inclement weather during such an excursion, and makes for a plausible rationale for the difference in the tolerance coefficient.

I dunno about mud, but we have both smeared a lot of SOMETHING on this topic! :)

-dave


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Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

We've covered this. There is a Thread Search tool in the orange bar above each page of each thread. Use it if you don't want to read 40+ pages. Otherwise, you make the thread even longer for someone else to read through.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I see we also agree on the origin of the mud!:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

is this chemical used for anything? Some teammates and I can't find anything online about it.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well, its an organic; which probably means that it can kill you, and/or hurt you really bad and would need safety glasses (safety FIRST ;-) ). Other than that, I wouldn't ever, EVER want to try drawing it? (My only guess at meaning would be that its actual structure means something, but you would have to draw it NOT FUN!)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well if it has anything to do with the third game hint, then it could be a large tetra.(?)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

well...from this hint im gettin 2 ideas....(dunno if they've been mentioned)

#1. Two obelisks with tetras on top, one for each alliance, in which u must place squares on your obelisk to score exponentially like in 07 and place spheres on the other teams obelisk as a sort of blocking method... spheres could possibly be a bit bigger to take up space and they would probably be difficult to lift and control. Dont have an idea for an end-game type of scoring but yea...

#2. One decent sized tetra in the center of the field with some sort of...lets go with board just cause i cant think, balanced on the tip acting as a balance. Teams must place cubes/spheres on the beam to make there side heavier, only thing is this would have to either be a huge beam...or small shapes...or we can hope that alliances will only be able to place a few amount of shapes on the beam....

so yea thats what i got....after typing them im leanin more toward the first one...but yea now im gonna go and wait til kickoff saturday morning...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

According to the wikipedia article on the Boston Marathon, Copley Square is the official finish line. This, along with the tortoise and the hare speculations lead me to believe this years competition will be a race. Perhaps there will be benefits to being the first to finish or taking your time.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Well, according to my eyes, it's approximately* between the old and new buildings of the Boston Public Library on Boylston Street. In the attached photo, taken on Boylston Street looking (ahem) approximately east, on the right from front to back: The Lenox Hotel, The Phillip Johnson addition (scroll down), the original McKim, Mead, and White building, and Copley Square and Trinity Church beyond. The finish line is painted on the street around the last "column" of the Johnson building next to the McKim building. You can also zoom in on Google Maps here and see "FINISH" painted. Copley Square may be the "official" end only in terms of that is where the runners are carried to the doctors, and where spouses go to pick up the remains. I recall the line used to be at the Prudential Tower when Prudential was the sponsor.

Regarding the history of Copley Square, it was created in 1883 and was originally a triangle lot because Huntington Avenue went straight thru it. The other triangle lot in front of Trinity Church was added a year later when they realized how silly it was having a three-sided square. The removal of Huntington Avenue thru the square was more recent.

Since the Hint was fairly precise ;) and did not give a tolerance, one must conclude they meant the plaza in front of the church and not anywhere else. Unless, of course, they posted it without Dave's advice, which would be silly. I'm still leaning towards a tortoise and hare theme.

By the way, Dave, perhaps some of the official Smoot websites should be updated, as both "a salute to Smoot" at the MIT website as well as the Lambda Chi Alpha website indicates 364.4 Smoots "and one ear" (MIT) or "plus 1 ear" (LCA).

*Since the two engineers above are debating the issue of precision and tolerance and the possible size of Mr Smoot's ear, a lesson the rest of us should tolerate and watch from afar.
_________________
Everything I know today I've learned from listening to myself talk about things that I knew absolutely nothing about. Gracie Allen

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I am not sure it this point has been braught up yet but it was an idea i had.

The Boston Public Library is close to the coordinates in the clue, could the last number be some sort of dewie decimal code for a book that would refer to a clue some how?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

BPL I believe uses Library of Congress cataloging; I think someone mentioned it many pages ago (I don't blame you for missing it).

342 in Dewey Decimal System is "Constitutional and administrative law", not a very hopeful path to go in. Not many numbers go to six places, but I seem to remember some sections did get that far, but I don't think 342 was one of them. Melville Dewey was an odd character; besides the DDC he advocated the metric system and simplifying the English language spelling. Thus his name became Melvil Dui.

Why, yes, in my youth we spent many a summer vacation going to visit libraries; my mother was a librarian -- can't you tell? (And her name was Marion.)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

If 342.242026 refers to the heading, then it seems to point you right at the fountain. So maybe the game has something to do with water? :ahh:

However, because of the number of sig digits, it may be a heading to something much further away or something near but quite small.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

This is my memory of it as well - the measurement was "364.4 Smoots + 1 ear." There was no +/-. I do remember going to a presentation once, where they gave a tolerance value for the measurement (in Smoots) but it had nothing to do with the ear. The ear itself I tend to interpret as just a silly way of completing the full distance of the measurement. I think the tolerance may have been added to the lore later on and not had much to do with the original fraternity stunt. (But maybe I'm not giving the guys enough credit.)

I'm not sure what the Smoot might have to do with the Game Hint but the discussion of units and tolerance is certainly relevant.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

A fountain full of tetra? GO FISH!

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's dlavery's way of getting everyone off the subject when we get too close to the correct answer to the Hint. :)

Wikipedia says "the bridge's length was measured to be 364.4 smoots plus or minus one ear, with the 'plus or minus' intended to express uncertainty of measurement", which does lend credence to dave's version of the events. Why .4 plus an ear? Wouldn't 364 plus a leg be better? But why would two sources closer to the event omit this?

Yet reading Lambda Chi's webpage a little more may reveal more of the truth. Oliver Smoot himself says "Luckily ... we were cold sober" when a police van came upon them. But this was a fraternity pledge hack in 1958; a later quote from a younger frat brother says "later the story came out as 'he was stiff as a board' from earlier festivities at the bar!" I suspect the tolerance would be a bit more than "plus or minus one ear."

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Here is what I am thinking so far...

Using Google Earth, the coordinates 42.349905, -71.076072 brought me to Copley Square in Boston.
Approximately 342 smoots away from that point is the Prudential Tower.
The Prudential Tower has a little message system using the red and blue lights on top of the tower.

Steady Blue, Clear View
Flashing Blue, Clouds are Due
Steady Red, Rain Ahead
Flashing Red, Snow Instead

IR board using different signals to perform different tasks..? That's all I got.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

If Copley Square really is a clue, then maybe the "Square" is the real clue.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Where is the fun in that....:)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I didn't read every post so Sorry if this was already mentioned but Copley Square is very close to "Co-Play Square"

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Woodie's game hint

"Just be careful about the stock market, with jello, gerbils, and K'nex blocks."

mentions "Squares", the stock market could be a stack that goes up & down.

When I think of Gerbils, Desert Rats, Rodents or Mouse (Mice) come to mind and may indicate a change in OI before we thought.

Or possibly the squares are going to be loaded on goals that move around the playing field (cage) like gerbils in a cage? Mobile goals may be like the "stock market, with jello" if the playing pieces are not stable.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

dunno if anyone has said this or not, but if your idea for what the third number is gets you a number that is "close" to the third number....its probably wrong...i don't think that they would give us a number to nine signifigant figures if they wanted us to be "close"...just a thought...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

This is post 666 in this thread.

How devlishly confusing these hints are....

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

the tortouse and the hare may represent the Boston Marathon because there is a structure in the square that does. The marathon only ends about a block away. I have now idea how this would relate to any kind of game

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Combining thoughts from this thread and the Hint #3 thread ...

Coordinates (if that's what they are) point to Copley Square. Someone posted a picture of Paul Copioli on one of the tetra goals in reference to #3. What do both have in common? The first syllable is "Cope" ... perhaps the game is Coping with something.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So now all we need to do is figure out what Nicolas Cage would do :yikes:

Game Hint 2:
 

This may be a stretch, but 42.349905
-71.076072
342.242026 happen to be exact coordinates to Copley Square, which is where MIT also happened to be founded...interesting

Re: Game Hint 2:
 

This topic has been well established.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Anyone else notice trinity church, 3 clues, 3 shapes (triangles circles and squares)?

Not that that means anything and we're all probably way off...

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

What if those numbers are the encryption key??????? Whaaaa??

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I believe the exact coordinates point to the Hancock building in Copley square, and the third coordinate might have something to do with the height.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

its the banana again

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

lol, anyone try? :rolleyes:
:p

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

i just thought of posting that.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

<quote from Pavan> What if those numbers are the encryption key??????? Whaaaa?? <quote/>


Ok no I didn't try but (not that it was a bad guess) do you really think they would give us the code, even if it was hidden in a clue?:confused:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

dude, i was kidding of course (I'll use the special [SARCASM] box next time. That, and the fact that we'll find out tomorrow anyway..so, no point in doing that.

P.S I'm pretty sure Pavan was kidding too. Just easing the tension about tomorrow.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

*oop* Riiiiiiiiight. Heh. I never was good at internet sarcasm. Hope to see everyone who reads/ posts on this thread 2morrow.:p :cool: :) :D :ahh:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

It was something Sam and I discussed. FIRST has probably already given us all we need to figure out the game, the only thing is we will overthink and not know until tomorrow even if we are 100% correct. So I thought I'd post a smart-alek remark on CD and see what people would say... :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

In keeping with the navigation theme, the 324 is a compass bearing from copley square. (or maybe toward it)

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

At this point everything I have seen so far points without a doubt to national treasure. What exactly that means for the game I have no idea. Here are the things that bring to this conclusion Copley square is the site of trinity church under which the treasure of the first nation treasure movie was hidden and the release date is the same as the date the second national treasure came out. Theres one thing I know for sure and that is that we will all go, "DOH" tommorow morning and things will become increasingly more hectic thereafter.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

The only concrete clue is the IR board.

For the following reasons I don't think they will be used to receive commands from the teams.

1. The existing command system is more than adequate and the adding of 4 somewhat less reliable command channels does not seem to be of much utility.
2. If each team brings a potpourri of remote controls to the games testing for inadvertent interference between teams would be a bit of a nightmare.
3. The 30-40 degree field of view

However if the IR emitters are part of the Playing Field then a host of ideas come to mind.

Game piece identification

In some past games colors were used to distinguish team pieces i.e. red and blue pool tubes. Maybe this time the game pieces will all look alike and you will have to identify your team's pieces by looking for a specific IR signature they emit.

Game targets/goals

Targets or goals may be marked with IR emitters. Their location may be changed between matches or even dynamically during the match.

Crude GPS system

Place an emitter in each corner of the game field and by scanning or each emitter (The ir board detects 4 IR signatures) the angles could be used to triangulate the position and bearing of your robot. Scanning would need a rotating mirror and optical slit.

Hint #2 with a longitude, latitude and azimuth makes me like this idea most.

---------

Speculation is free, just remember you get what you pay for.

Maybe I should get an hour of sleep before kickoff..

Good luck everyone.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

copley square-boston marathon-first overdrive

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So what were the numbers really. Were they really GPS coordinates?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

im assuming so, if the boston marathon has to do with our game i can't figure out what else in the game they are.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Woodie told us the coordinates simply referred to the Tortoise and the Hare in Copley Square.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

what about the 3rd clue?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

the 3rd clue is an anogram (spelling?) for the manual password, rearrange the letters

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I rebember someone in this post saying that the name of this years game would be overdrive. I dont remember who this was, or how they got to that conclusion. I also dont feel like searchink through over 600 posts right now, but to whoever it was, Great Call.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

So what about 342.242026?

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I know this is a bit late and I didn't bother reading all 47 pages of this discussion, but did anyone make the connection with XKCD?

http://xkcd.com/240/

"It turns out wanting something doesn't make it real"

Wanting a water game doesn't make it real.


Sorry I posted this AFTER the game was announced :rolleyes:

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Branching off of that... Lavery's first iteration of his clue in signature mentioned something about the answer being right in our hands but not seeing it since it doesnt conform to expectations.

That highly depended on what type of mouse you used, since only the old mice have a "Trackball" and a good number of people now use optical.

grr..

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

That, and a few of us came to the conclusion of a race. Nice job guys! :D

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Compass bearing that looks at the statues from the coordinate location several feet away.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

In addition to it being an anagram of the decryption code, it also contains the word hurdling which is one of the ways score this year.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

In this years game, the robots cross the finish line and turn left. Do to the orientation of streets around Copley Square, if marathon runners crossed the finish line and turned 90 degrees left, they would be heading in a compass bearing of 342.242026 degrees.

EDIT: See Dave Lavery's post here. If you went to those coordinates and looked in that direction, you would be staring at the Tortoise and the Hare statues.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I wanted to thank Dave for hint #2. I'm drawing a building interior over on Newbury St a couple blocks over and up from Copley Square (at 42.349905 and -71.076072) and I needed a north arrow on the plan. As the whole Back Bay is tilted from north I just twirled my north arrow 342.242026 (in AutoCAD it's easy!) and there ya go! I guess I'm going to keep the hint on a sticky on my office wall for a while.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/FRC Game Hint #2
 

I'm going to close this so people don't get confused with years. No 2009 game hint yet!