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2008 Game- Overdrive
What are your opinions on the 2008 version of FIRST?
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This will prove to be an exceptional game that will host many new opportunities!
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Speed and robustness are going to be crucial this year.
This is an amazing game. |
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Wow! This . . . is gonna be fun. :)
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Pros:
-Has easy-to-do things (drive in circle) as well as hard-to-do things (hurdling trackballs). This is a big improvement over 2007, which required fairly complex manipulators. -Easy to explain at a high-level: "drive in a circle" -The no obstruction rule will remove (or at least reduce) the intense (and IMO boring) defense seen last year -Will be a good spectator game owing to its high speed nature -After this year, most every team should have a solid drivetrain design, since this game is so drivetrain-heavy. Cons: -Could be a real box-on-wheels game: I missed the point values for various actions, but a trivial solution might be to simply lose the game piece and drive in a circle at top speed. This may prove to be a disincentive to game piece development. -The game score will not be immediately obvious to someone watching in the stands. Where in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2007 games you could determine the current score (or at least who was winning) at a glance, 2008 will require viewers to have watched the whole match to know who is winning. I think I'll love it this year. |
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My first thought was “wow – seems pretty easy.” I havt not watched all of the game because my NASA broadcast kept freezing. However, so far it seems pretty interesting. I never thought FIRST would design a racing game. Now that I think about it there really isnt much that needs to be rest after the games. I usually voulnteer as a field rester at competitions. I guess I will find something else to do. I cant wait! Good luck everyone.
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New drive train
SWEET:D |
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Could someone post a link to the manual?
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At first it looked easy to our entire team, but now as we get into the details it looks like its going to require far more strategy then we thought :]
anyone know how much the ball weighs? |
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I made a stupid mistake and forgot to download it earlier. The site hasn't even loaded for me yet. Quote:
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What prevents a team from throwing the opposition's ball out of the areana? Also, how do refs rule if your blocking the roadway.
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Same here. How long until their server crashes? That would be a good poll.
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I downloaded the manual yesterday...
NO CIMS!?!?!?!?!?! arrgh.... the world has gone mad. -vivek EDIT: no cims in the kop but apparently the robot parts says the kop has the chalupas... |
Re: 2008 Game- Overdrive
I've uploaded a zipped copy of the decrypted manual to Rapidshare for anyone having trouble getting it off the FIRST site.
EDIT: I have been informed that the manual is copyrighted and those hosting it last year were asked to remove it. After being informed of this I decided to take down my mirror of the file. |
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The track ball weighs about ten pounds... how do i get the manual to stay decrypted and not have to do it everytime?
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i didn't write the code down Help!
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Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!? EDIT: The zipped version available for download at the top of the page apparently doesn't need the code. |
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I think this game is a big improvement from previous years. It's a semi-simple concept, but in the grand scheme of things, it will be challenging.
I'm slightly worried about how tight the space seems to be for the robots, and the balls look heavy. My main concern is the robots; I hope all teams build them to be very sturdy and strong. Good luck to all teams! Hope to see a lot of you this year. |
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Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?
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the code is Drive!Straight?turn!LEFT!?
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someone correct me if i'm wrong... |
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The game is, in contrast to Dean's thoughts incredibly simple. I believe that it, in some ways diverted FIRST from tradition, however, as I've been mulling it over, it IS too simple in many ways. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if there really isn't pushing, I mean come on, the whole game revolves around being at least slightly aggressive, what are bumpers for?
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defensive stratagies anyone????
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I really think this game has a realistic auto mode, which is great, and should eliminate those boring moments in the beginning of a match. Should be an amazing game to watch and participate in.
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if anyone else needs the manual you can find the decrypted zipped and non zipped files on our server.
www.brt1671.com/08manual |
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Hey, my team has some questions. If you have two RoboCoaches, does that second RoboCoach need to come from another team? They had that on the red alliance and they had two Coaches...Can someone help us out? Thanks and Happy FIRST Season!:)
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Here's a question... If the intent of the last portion of the match is to get the trackball onto the overpass and as I have currently read the rules(may have missed something) then what if I were to try to put my red trackball onto the overpass in the blue homestretch... "<G36> HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing
ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction." If you cannot be more than 6' tall at this point and the over pass is 6.5' tall then how are you going to accomplish this since you cannot go backwards on the track to try to put the trackball up? |
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permitted to provide external stimuli to the ROBOT from either of the two ALLIANCE ROBOCOACH STATIONS. There is one ROBOCOACH per TEAM. p.s. sorry for the double post |
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Seems alot like inspirado from my arch nemisis, all i have to say is it could be..
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I was reading the rules for the new game(arena) and it mentioned a 1/2" to 1" bump, does anybody know any more about this? Thank You.
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Sorry about that :(
Here's the KOP checklist (attached to this post) EDIT: I have been informed that those mirroring the manual last year were asked to take it down. After being informed of this I have decided to take down my mirrors before being asked. Quote:
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Basically its just going to be a lot of driving in circles. Boring. |
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Does anyone know where to find a wiring diagram for the ir reciever?
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My reaction:
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The trackballs won't even come close to fitting through a standard door when inflated. (40 inch ball, 30 inch door) That's going to be annoying in a hurry.
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WHERE ARE THE CIM'S!!!:confused: :eek: ARE THEY SERIOUS IN NOT GIVING US CIM'S Can you use ones from last year or can you only use the motors that they give us this year?:ahh: |
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I got the manual today
i like this seasons game i feel it is easier in the most part other than incorporating the infared and the remotes will be a challenge and also teams that have always taken the defensive aspect will have o change as this is a primarily offensive game |
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Wow this year's games looks pretty easy at first glance.
Drive in circles and earn points. When you get to know the details, though, it doesn't look that simple anymore. How long does a bot have to stay at the same place for judges to consider it as blocking ? Can't wait to find out whether this turns to be purely a race game or something more complex.:eek: |
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Yea no cims is what they say i like how spheres have been the game for 3 years in a row haha.
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I am looking at the checklist, and it includes 2 2.5in CIMS, so I dont know what you guys are freaking out about.
The .5in Bump is by the center divider, whoever asked that. HAs anyone done calculations on how long it would take their robot from last year to tranverse the field? |
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Has anyone used the ToughBox gearboxes that are included in the KoP before?
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Edit:A math proof that the ball should dangle far enough below the rails to be bump-able given a trackball center at (0,0) given a trackball contact point with a rail at (16,y) (the rails are 32" apart) given the trackball is 20" and assuming it remains approximately spherical, then... x^2 + y^2 = r^2 16^2 + y^2 = 400 y^2 = 400 - 256 y = 12 So the contact point for the rails will be 12" below the center of the ball. This means that between the rails, the bottom of the ball should be 8" below them, and thus 2" below the maximum allowed height of a robot in the opponent zone. However, this is in an ideal world where the rails are infinitely thin and the ball is perfectly sperical. Since the rails are 1.5" wide and the ball will deform some, the ball may be slightly higher than where I computed it to be, and the contact space for a robot will be very, very small. Edit: see attachment below for diagram. |
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well circles have been in the game since my freshmen year
06 the aim high balls 07 rack n roll tubes 08 overdrive track balls |
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I don't like this game because it's not very challenging. See, you can make a drivable box bot in a day, and have it score points. You can also recycle a lot of ideas from last year. I really hope that teams choose to challenge themselves and go for the complex stuff like the IR board and autonomous. At least that's what I want my team to do. |
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I voted for Hate it. I wouldn't say I hate it, but I definitely don't like it.
There's no defense. Ideally in this game no robots on opposing alliances would even come in contact with one another. If FIRST wants to be as popular as sport they should include sports-like strategies into the games. The argument can be made that this is like NASCAR, but as I am not a fan of it I don't find this game appealing. It's surprising to me that this is the first year bumpers have been required because robot-robot contact is not a large part of the game. Also, I think watching robots go around in circles could get boring pretty fast. Another problem I see is IR interference. If each team is allowed 2 RoboCoaches then it's possible to have 12 remotes all going off in the beginning of the game. The video we watched at kickoff said that interference would certainly adversely affect the IR board. Hopefully there's a solution to this, as it would not be fun to have your robot controlled by another team's remote. That said, one positive thing I can say about this game is that it definitely allows rookie teams to make a robot that scores on its own. All your robot has to be able to do is drive and you can score points for your team. I'll probably end up changing my mind as the weeks progress, but this is how I see things at this point in time. |
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hey does anyone know if the balls have to be removed from the over pass to score the bonus points for being on the overpass at the end of the game
does anyone know which way the ball has to leave from the overpas thanks in advance |
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I have a few questions:
I wonder what the refs will do if a robot breaks down in the middle of the track, thereby obstructing it. Will it be a penalty? During the Kickoff broadcast, they gave a brief tutorial about the IR board. They said that different remotes can disrupt the receptors. Does this mean that the robocoaches can disrupt another team's IR board? During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path? |
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"And now for something completely different..."
should have been the lead in to the introduction. The GDC has caused a bit of a paradigm shift for teams this year... which is a good thing. No longer is pushing power going to be a factor in design... but cornering ability will be. We're switching from building tanks to building hot rods this year, people! This kind of change is good as it keeps teams from doing too much pre-season preparation. While pre-season prep is good, I can pretty much guarantee that every team is re-evaluating their pre-season drivetrain plans from the ground up and we are all starting from scratch today. Way to go GDC... this looks like another winner. Jason |
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<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. |
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I love the idea... it seems like a generally simple idea complex enough for a returning team to understand what they want but also what's more fun then building a robot that runs around really, really, fast. It's a good idea on their part... Keep up the good work GMC
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is anyone having problems downloading the sensor manual or the pneumatics manual. it just says 404 not found for me.
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I just thought of this:
Teams that have the capability to do a lot of driver training (read: can build a practice bot) will probably have a bigger advantage this year. Since it's all about speed and control, teams whose drivers have spent many hours on a robot will have an edge. Think about it this way: Go try to play a challenging driving game like Forza, GT4, or Live For Speed for an hour, and note your times after an hour. Then continue to play it for 20 hours, and see how much better and versatile you've become. That's the kind of training difference you'd probably see in real life as well. A driver that is very familiar with how his/her robot behaves will have a big advantage going into a race like this. |
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-vivek |
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I'm running on only about four hours of sleep after waking up early to see Obama's speech, so maybe I missed this, but:
Am I crazy, or is there no rule limiting the speed of projectiles this year? |
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in section 8, <R59> it says you are aloud to use up to 4 of the 2-1/2" CIM motors, 2 are in the KoP
this makes me happy. for the projectiles, I just did a Ctrl + F on the manuel setions that look like they would involve "projectiles". Quote:
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Frankly I think that it is fun and yet poses a challenge.:)
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well, where is the complex challenge that forces you to lose sleep and pop a bottle of Advil? This is a race. Build a fast robot, with an arm to grab the end pole of the divider and that's it. Once you grab the pole you are flung around the corner and race some laps. I like the racing concept, but this is FIRST. What is challenging you? I don't get it.
srry: there is no room for this "arm" to grab the wall. But you can still just race some 'bots. |
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It's more about turning ability, because it isn't allowed to slingshot around the pole. |
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yeah i just read that.
But I still don't understand the "challenging" factors of this game. As others posted, this is a race. FIRST is supposed to be a challenge, not a display of simple skills. |
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Ohm. |
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One thing is that if everyone just runs around, the scores will be very equal. So trackball use is essential (at least to my perspective) in order to win.
So you must have some bots with good racing skills, and others that can get the balls down, and then get them back up again to get the extra points. Now, if someone were to be able to build a bot that was very good at racing AND could manipulate the ball... |
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first impression: in my opinion this game is just too simple. it will be nice for the rookie teams because all they need to do is drive, but what about the veteran/experienced teams? After inflating our trackball and moving it around, i think it will be VERY hard to pick it up at least 7 or 8 feet off the ground because of its size and weight. i am just not sure how a robot can manage to pick up the ball and lift it, considering i have a hard time myself trying to pick it up. I really dont like the fact that almost all defensive "plays" are now illegal and all that will happen during regionals is that you will see robots going in a circle, and not much beyond that. during the game video, i was almost expecting there to be more game pieces thrown onto the field to make this more interesting. i dont think that only 4 massive game pieces is enough to make an interesting game. in past years it was fun to see the robots either shooting balls into goals or getting a complete wrap-around on the rack, but what is the fun in going around in circles?
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What? I can't believe some of you think that the Defense last year was a bad idea. I personally thought lasts years game was awesome, it was more like a real sport. You got to see robots really going at each other, breaking some parts, which led to fun frustration in the Pits later :yikes:
If you ask me, I like this years game, but i wanted to see something more "head-to-head". Maybe its because i play hockey.. Good ol' checks. |
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I think this is a really fun game (from a programmers standpoint). The hybrid mode should also lead to some very interesting matches. The only problem is that there will be falling balls that could damage a robot.
When we were at the kickoff (in Flint, MI) they kept mentioning this website and chief delphi was sitting right in front of us. We had a good laugh. |
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<G30> TRACKBALL Out of Bounds - TRACKBALLS that leave the arena will be placed back on the TRACK at the earliest safe opportunity. The TRACKBALL will be placed on the TRACK at the approximate location where it exited. You can throw it out (it seems) but it will just be placed back in. And you will get a penalty for possessing an opponent's ball. |
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It's not as easy as you guys think, a simple tank won't be able to take those corner's at high speed. Designing a robot that has steerable wheels is not necessarily such an easy task.
Also If you can't collapse your arm or are holding a ball high speed turns will definitely result in lots of flipping. |
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What happens if your Alliances ball is on your opponents overpass? How do you get your ball since you can't go over 6ft on your opponents home stretch?
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The more I look at the game, the more I enjoy it. The task is easy to understand (get your ball, get it over the overpass, swing around and do it again), and even someone who doesn't get the subtleties of the game can get the jist in about thirty seconds. Flying bricks can score for the alliance, but the ones you'll see on Saturday afternoon will do more faster.
Still, we'll see how it plays out on the field. |
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I cannot pass judgement of this game in therory so I will wait til I see it in practice (at least during the scrimmages) before I make a decision about how I truly feel about it.
At least it's different. I submitted a racing game design a few years ago. |
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I actually think this game is okay. *NOTE: I'm surprised that the concession stands will not be serving booze and hot dogs on a stick and having the regionals and robots perform outdoors* I think that teams like 25, 111, 148 and other prestigious teams in the community will have a robot designed to both "partner" and be able to grab from over the rails as well as being able to pick them up and move them themselves, giving them the advantage IF they are placed with an experienced team (Eliminations).... I think that the GDC must not have had cable while coming up with this game hint but at the same time I disappointed at the "lack" of autonomous. Because we are able to use "remote controls" it takes away from the Auton. I think you might as well have just had 10 seconds of auton, 10 extra auton/remote, regular round but instead its how it is.... Its all good though in the end I think I may be dizzy but it will be a good experience. Soon I will be contacting my lawyer so I can begin taking the rules apart line by line but I'll let him sleep right now ];-)> ... I am disappointed though with the fully offensive game and the fact that a kitbot with no manipulator can complete this task. In 2006 you at least had to be able to store balls or "plow" but the "plow" was a type of manipulator.. But in the end I guess this makes it fair for everyone, and the "race the the finish" type ending will be finally administered to some degree as I expect most teams to "crane" the robot and try and get it on top of the 'bridges'...... Thats how I explained the game to my parents --- Nascar with bridges and balls..... Its not the best game FIRST has come up with, but at least its not the worst.
GDC.... Come on. Counter-clockwise? ... I believe NASCAR might file a lawsuit! Peace, Pavan EDIT: I'm disappointed that there is no 'green light'. Ever since my first year in FIRST in Atlanta when I saw the light up trick with the red blue and green lights I have been expecting multiple colored lights. Over the years though it seems that the Camera and the lights have lost their 'importance' in the world of FIRST... *sigh* |
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The day has come, a bunch of little FIRST race cars will soon exist.
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NASCAR without the wrecks. Yawn......
It's not the worst game, but it doesn't move my WOW-meter. |
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I think it's really interesting. I was expecting direct robot dependancy, like the ramp-bots last year. Manipulating an object as large and heavy as a trackball is not easy and I am excited to see what everyone comes up with! I think that the game will be more exciting in actuality than it may seem right now.
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I dunno, i'm not really a huge fan of it. I'm sure it will grow on me though, it seems like chaos to me right now. It seems like it's going to be difficult for the refs to keep track of too.
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Overdrive will probably end up like Rack n' Roll with me. I hated Rack n' Roll until it got competitive.
The one issue I'm having right now...I'm not sure if I want to sign up for Volunteering for field reset...how many people do you need to reset the field this year? 2? |
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Points scored for racing around the track, assuming 10 laps (which will be pretty hard to do), is 20.
Passing a ball over once is worth 8, and 12 if you place it at the end, making the balls worth the effort (for those who can do it). I'd suggest the game won't simply be a lot of driving in circles (especially for those playing on Saturday afternoons!). |
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I Think it will be crowded with 6 robots on the field
I was surprised at how big the ball was (i mean it was huge!) :| |
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This game sucks...come on FIRST, you could't have though of anything more original???
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Don't be quick to judge like I was last year... keep an open mind! |
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The ball weights approximately 10 pounds and is 40 inches in diameter. I read the manual lol! =D
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The ball weights approximately 10 pounds and is 40 inches in diameter. I read the manual lol! :)
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Props to the Game Designers. This is gonna be fun. I think the action will be fast, tough, and audience-friendly. Its a good thing bumpers are mandatory. |
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<G07> A ROBOT that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again and <G13> A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again. Which makes your move legal, but no points would be scored |
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