OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

I didn't see a general discussion forum about this years rules, so I guess this is it.

My current question is: Are the trackball points awarded by color of the ball, or color of the team controlling it? i.e. - If Blue knocks down a red trackball during hybrid mode, does blue then get the points? What about crossing lines?

I think that if the ball colors are for ID purposes only, like the white dots, then creating a scoring sim (like my annual spreadsheet...) is next to impossible!:ahh:

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

If you look in the manual it shows you the different ways to score

but color it alliance blue, and red

if the ball goes over the crossbar you get 8 points. Under is 2 points
You also get 8 points if you get the ball off during hybrid mode.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

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ya know, I've been studying that section, but I guess having it pointed out to me by itself makes it a lot clearer! THANX!!!!:D

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In reply to the trackball removal:

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

what are the rules for the defence , yes rubbing is racing , but how hard can someone hit or " nudge"

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See <G37> for defense rules.

It sounds like you can only accidently hit someone, or "nudge" when wanting to pass.

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yes , but I wonder what the limits are , if you remember in AIM HIGH , there was robot carnage , this game you have to have bumpers , so what are the limits on pushing and shoving , can someone really play defence aside from just giving someone a " nudge"

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

<G37> a. High speed accidental collisions are likely to occur during the MATCH, and are an expected part of the game. However, high-speed intentional ramming is not acceptable and will be penalized.

b. Contact within the BUMPER ZONE is generally acceptable.

c. Contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE is generally not acceptable, and will result in a PENALTY. The offending ROBOT may be disqualified from the MATCH if the offense is particularly egregious or if it results in substantial damage to another ROBOT. However, incidental contact outside of the BUMPER ZONE will not be penalized.


It seems as if you can hit someone else as hard as you want, as long as it's on the bumper, and as long as you don't seem to be aiming for them (ramming).

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Posting in response to the color ball question. If you look at the scoring chart regardless of ball color in hybrid period. You get 8 points per trackball knocked off of overpass. The rule your refering to should only apply to balls during the control period. Thats if your on the blue team and knock a red teams ball past the finish line during the match the red team gets the 2 points for the ball. It's real confusing because you could take that scorring chart either way.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

<G09> During the HYBRID PERIOD, each TRACKBALL that is removed from the OVERPASS (i.e. completely removed from its initial TARGET LOCATION and not in contact with any portions of the OVERPASS) at the end of the HYBRID PERIOD will earn 8 points.

You get 8 points per trackball OF YOUR COLOR that is knocked off in Hyrbrid mode.

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But doesnt G09 imply that during the hybrid period G08 does not apply?
And per this chart on the rules

note summarized

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Question about this year's game. Even though they didn't give us a camera this year, does anyone know whether or not we can use it this year? Thanks.

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I might just be losing it today, but I don't like the phrase "scored trackball". Does the process of taking a trackball off of the overpass consider the trackball "scored"? Are the points being awarded because a trackball was taken off, or because your trackball was taken off? If the latter, I don't know how a team is going to make it around the corner of the wall, knock over the other ball without breaking the 6 foot height limit, and do it deterministically so they don't knock over the wrong ball on accident and give the other team 8 points. Seems incredibly hard to do, especially with other robots more than plausibly in the way.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

You'll want to look at the Parts Use flowchart on the last page of section 8 of the manual. Because it is still available COTS from IFI, and it is under the cost limits, I would say that it will be allowed.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

If a trackball is placed on the overpass, then removed by an opponent (in the c-clockwise direction), does it count as a hurdle?

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Question: Can the trackball be scored if one robot be in possession when it crosses the finish line? G10 only talks about no contact and contact w/ 2 robots. So, if it only one robot, does it still count? Thanks

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I wouldn't think so. <G08> says "all" trackball scores, so even hybrid phase would be affected. I think that they both work in tandem, neither of them canceling the other.

The difference between the two is that you get 8 pts, in Hybrid phase, for knocking a ball down. If there is still a ball up after the 15 sec of Hybrid, then the ball may still be knocked down, but no points will be awarded.

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No. The ball must either have absolutely no contact with a robot of the same Alliance, or must make contact with robots of both Alliances before touching the ground on the other side of the finish line.

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HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

The definition of "hurdle" is "passing over the overpass" (no pun intended) :).
So the opposition would have no chance of knocking over the ball because it must completely go over the overpass, not rest on it.

You might be thinking of the ending, when Alliances receive 12 points per ball resting on the overpass at the end of the match. In this case, they can knock it down, thus preventing you from scoring, but not receiving any points themselves.

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I was asking about the ball crossing under the overpass. Anyone know if it can only touch one robot? Thanks.

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So therefore; resting the trackball on the overpass, then pushing it over yourself is not a legal maneuver for a hurdle?

And yes, I was referencing the ending; you place the trackball on the overpass, hoping to get 12 points at the end of the match. The other alliance descores it, but you get 8 points for a completed hurdle, after all, the trackball did pass completely over the overpass :) , is this a correct interpretation?

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

Don't worry, you aren't losing it :) . Everyone has questions with these rules....

If the Blue Alliance removes a Red trackball from the overpass, the Red Alliance would get the 8 points (according to G08 and G09). If the Red Alliance removed one of their own trackballs, the Red Alliance would receive 8 points.

And yes, once a trackball is removed from the overpass it is considered scored (meaning the Alliance cannot receive the 8 points twice for the same ball).

I think that there is some strategy in this part. I agree that it is a stretch for one robot to get both balls down in the Hybrid phase. Thus, it should be a priority to get the points. If there are two robots that are able to remove the trackballs, one should go for the ball on their side, and the second should aim for the ball on the enemy's side.

Now I have a question of my own. During the Hybrid phase, could you remove the ball from the overpass before you cross the finish line and then hurdle the ball?

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I don't see why not, there is no rule forbidding it, and as the trackball has not completely crossed over the line, there is no reason it shouldn't be allowed to be scored.

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thats a great question dude, i think because the robots cant move backwards that would be allowed but remember u only have 15 sec to take it off set it down pick it back up and hurdle it. all on hybrid commands:ahh:

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Lol, I answered my own question while looking at G12.

<G12> A TRACKBALL must CROSS a LANE MARKER before it can score for the first time by HURDLING or CROSSING its FINISH LINE.

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<G10> Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points.


Yeah, what I said (restating G10) only applies to crossing. hurdling has its own set of rules.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

well, shows i need to read the booklet more :P
So do u think that you can take the ball and bump it hard with your robot over the overpass, or do you think that u cant use powerful throwing mechanisms for safety reasons, is there a height limit on the field, is it to dangerous to throw the trackball i think the robots could take damage from a flying trackball there pretty heavy to fall from a big height.etc

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Well, just to redefine hurdling here:
HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.

The ball just has to "pass above" the overpass, so it would work to set it down on the overpass and then push it over.

I think that you have the interpretation right, just as long as they push your ball off over the finish line instead off backwards. :)

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Fine ignore me lol:mad:
Nah im JK i dont care :P

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So if the other alliance knocks your ball off in a counter-clockwise direction (when you are going for the 12 points) you get 8 points instead?

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I don't think that there is anything in the rules saying we can't throw... but it would take a powerful robot to do that. I mean, the ball is 10 lbs...

I'll recheck the rules though. Just for you. (JK):)

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Yep. At least it seems that way.

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They mentioned making sure your robot was robust enough and even showed a falling ball damaging a bot in the animation, so I think it would be fine to shoot a trackball.

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Thank you, But you know they also haven't released the safety regulations which may include factors about robot safety from the track balls during the match.
Because throwing the big trackball could be dangerous, we dropped it from 6 feet it bounces pretty well almost achieved its full original height. Which brings up bouncing the ball over there hurdle.

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No, you cannot do that

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The only objection that I could find is that it might be deemed as an unsafe operation of the robot.

<S01> If at any time a ROBOT'S operation or design is deemed unsafe, it will receive a PENALTY and be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH. If the safety violation is due to the ROBOT design, the Head Referee has the option to not allow the ROBOT back onto the TRACK until the design has been corrected. An example of unsafe operation would be uncontrolled motion that cannot be stopped by the drivers.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

I would say that "falling" and "throwing" are very different. ;)

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I would say that robots are meant to throw trackballs. In the animation, one bot looked like a catapult; a robot can't be in contact with the ball when it scores (either by land or by air); bumpers and robustness are mandatory, and trackballs that leave the playing field are reintroduced ASAP without penalty. I'd say the GDC are expecting some high-flying trackballs.
On the other hand, I don't think we'll be designing a trebuchet that fires from a distance of 20'....

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

I had another rules/strategy question:

Your not allowed to block people and impede traffic but can you go full speed and make yourself the width of the track much like they do in real racing (nascar formula 1, etc), and make someone make a move to pass you..From the rules I guess you can't but if this is a race that is a legitimate racing strategy.

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I says that you can not extend past a height of six feet in your opponents Home Stretch, so how are you supposed to get your color ball of their overpass?

Rule <G36>
also
Rule <G22>
So are you supposed to go passed your opponents finish line, turn around, and hit your ball off the overpass with out crossing the plane of the Finish Line? The robot in the animation extends past the 6 foot height limit to reach the ball.

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Take an intentional penalty??

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so a robot cannot posses a track ball while it is being scored? For instance could a robot carry a ball over the finish line? or simply push it? To confirm it cannot be touching the track ball When it crosses the line in order to get the 4 points (2 for the ball 2 for the bot).

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Correct, your robot my not be in possession of the track ball when you cross the finish line for the track ball to give you an additional two points.

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actually im pretty sure you can't be touching the ball at all when passing over the finish line. I pulled this general rule of thumb from the rule: the ball must touch the ground or another robot after crossing the finish line to be scored be scored.

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you are correct, I misread the rule. good catch :yikes:

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80" limit horizontally. If the track is less than 80" wide, there's a problem. But it's not. It's more than 10'. It won't work.

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In other words, unless a YOU AND YOUR OPPOSITION are BOTH in contact with the ball AS IT CROSSES the line, YOU may NOT touch it. Although what about if say a RED bot is in contact with a BLUE ball as it crosses?

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Then Red just scored for Blue.

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Im not on a FRC team (yet) but I still wanna know the game.

Are you allowed to be in position of both of your alliances trackballs?

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No. That's readily apparent from a quick reading of the rules. See <G26>

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

Long answer: <G29> states that robots may not be in possession of a trackball belonging to an opposing alliance, and a 10 pt penalty may be assessed for each violation. However, herding opponents' trackballs or removing them from the overpass is okay.
Short answer: no.
However, if the opponent's trackball leaves the field of play, there is no penalty that I can find. If you can figure out a way to remove the trackballs from play without possessing them, it may be an interesting strategy (although the refs will reintroduce them as soon as they can)

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

In response to Boilers comment about not finding any penalty for ejecting the opponents Trackball, I will go out on a limb and guess you will get further clarification in the future something to the effect that "intentionally throwing your opponents Trackball out of the arena is not in the spirit of the competition, and will be viewed as un-sportmanslike."

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What does "above the overpass" mean? Does it mean over without touching, or can it touch the overpass? If it can touch, then what happens when you put your trackball on top of it at the end and your opponent knocks it off? Do you get 6 points for the trackball crossing over the overpass?

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No one seemed to know the answer in another threads so I'll try here.

I wonder what the refs will do if a robot breaks down in the middle of the track, thereby obstructing it. Will it be a penalty?

During the Kickoff broadcast, they gave a brief tutorial about the IR board. They said that different remotes can disrupt the receptors. Does this mean that the robocoaches can disrupt another team's IR board?

During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path?

Also is there anywhere where we can find the tests that the refs will be using so that we can see what penalties they focus on the most?

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

FROM SSmike

During the game practice, two red "bots" passed the trackballs back and forth. On would lift it over the bar and then the other would pass it back. Could you hypothetically do this the entire game, as long as you are not obstructing the path?

You could, but you would not get points more than once. The Trackball must pass over the opposing alliances finish line before it can be scored a second time for passing above the overpass (G13).

I believe that in the animation, RBot1 passed the Trackball above the overpass to RBot2 (8 Points), then RBot 2 passed it back to RBot1, RBot1 then placed the Trackball on the overpass (12 points per G14).

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Has anyone read <G10>? It says "Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while not in contact with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points. A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE which contacts ROBOTS of both ALLIANCES while CROSSING will earn 2 points."

Who gets the points?

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

Read the manual again.

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I have a question regarding robot size at the end of the match. I know in years past that robots have sometimes had to end within starting dimension but I did not see any mention of it this year. I may have missed it as I do not have a complete set of the rules but the area my teams rules person thought it would be did not mention it. If anyone could clarify this for me that would be a great help.

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You didn't miss it. It isn't there.

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No restrictions, except for the 80" cylinder that is in effect all game.

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Our team has a question about bumpers. Do they have to make a rectangle around the robot, of can they be angled? (I'm sure it's the same as last year, but I can't find anything in the manual)

Also, if we were to use a "leaf blower" type device to push the ball, would it count as "contact" for rule <G10>? Would such a device even be legal?

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

In answer to your first question, all the bumper rules are found in <R08>.

For the second question, I don't know. I'm not even sure such a device is practical. I think that's one for Q&A.

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

Questions about G11 and G29 and G36.

If you remove an opposing alliances trackball from their overpass which they placed, and you remove it in a counter-clockwise direction (it passes through the plane of the finish line), have you just hurdled your opponents trackball (G11)? This action seems to saticefy the definition of hurdle. (Edit: Assume G12 & G13 saticefied and G12 seems to give you one shot at a grace period, meaning if you just leave it up there, your opponent can remove just before the end of the match without hurdling it)

While it is legal remove an opposing alliances trackball (G29), if you remove the trackball by any method other than striking it, would you be penalized for possessing it?

While removing an opposing alliances trackball from the overpass in thier home stretch, would rule G36 still apply?

If you violate rules while removing an opponents trackball that hase been legally placed on thier overpass, would the points for placement still count if you have managed to remove the trackball?

Re: OVERDRIVE Rules/Scoring Questions
 

I still have a question about the legality of carying the ball over the overpass and dropping it on the other site (as shown in the animation).

Since the overpass scoring rule defines the 8 point score as "(2 points for
CROSSING the FINISH LINE – re Rule <G10> - and a 6 point bonus, yielding 8 points total)" and G10 says "Each TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE while <B>not in contact</B> with a ROBOT of the same ALLIANCE will earn 2 points"

Then doesn't this mean that if you carry the ball over the overpass, you are in contact with it, so by definition you won't get the 2 points.... and then maybe not even the "bonus" 6 points .....