2008 game confusion thread
 

To start off, my team is a bit confused over rules

<g20>
and <g36>


Since each side of the track has one red and one blue ball, and your robot can not be over 6' in the opponent's home stretch, how can you hit your colored ball off of the overpass in the opponent's home stretch? Do you have to rely on the other team knocking your ball off of their overpass? Wouldn't this result in only 2 balls in play?

The only way we see to get your ball off of the opponent's overpass was to cross their finish line (so you are not in their home stretch), and then push it backwards.. Into their home stretch.. Then an alliance mate could come around and push it across.. This seems like an odd process though, just to get your ball off of their overpass..

Also, in the game animation, we can clearly see a red robot extending its arm higher than the overpass while in the blue home stretch! This directly conflicts <g36> Something is wrong:

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

There is a similar question among my team. How are you supposed to knock off the trackballs that the opposing alliance places on the overpass? The rules are very unclear about this.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

We are talking about this same question. It was complicated further for us because on both the animation and the human demonstration, the "Home stretch" rule was broken. The updates page and the Q and A page on USFIRST are not up yet. Are we making the mistake or did FIRST make the mistake?

Also, unfortunately, the Home Stretch appears to extend all the way under the overpass. Meaning that it is not possible to reach high enough until you've passed the second bar. This means that the only way to touch the ball is on the other side. However, this only leaves four inches between the first point of contact with the ball and the edge plane of the home stretch. It doesn't seem like it would be practical to knock a ten pound ball off of it's seat with four inches of motion.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

After looking in the rules, it appears that the homestretch is only one half each alliance's total zone. I guess that means that you're restricted from going over 6' on one quarter of the track. Still, that doesn't really solve the problem, though you could go past the other alliance's finish line and try to knock it down just past the opponent's homestretch.

I'd like to know the official ruling on this one too.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

This isn't legal, either... I started a similar thread over here explaining why it doesn't look like you can descore at all, or even retrieve your own ball at the start:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?p=668363

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

ok, i think i get it now. So the arena is separated into 4 quarters, and the home stretch is the area of each side after you pass through the finish line.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I wasn't suggesting driving back over the line, but after the finish line, looking back and trying to knock the ball down without breaking the line plane. Could be called obstruction of traffic, anyhow. Still, I highly doubt that's what FIRST intended. I'm really surprised by this rule... can't figure out the reasoning behind it. Would like the Q&A to go up so we can get some resolution.

Actually, it's the quarter right before you hit the line. The color of the finish line determines the color of the homestretch.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I think your drawing was reversed.. the way the manual has it makes problems:

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

You would be correct i think. The finish line location provides enough room for it to be before the finish line. I will edit my picture

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Watch the game animation. Just past halfway through, the red forklift robot, in the blue homestretch, raises over 6' and knocks a red trackball off of the overpass. In accordance with <G36>, this is illegal.

What is going on?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

i agree the animation goes against the rule

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

About the problem of having only one ball avalible to you in your home streatch, is it possible that you could put a ball into play during the autonomous period?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

If at the beggining of the match during the hybrid period, you knock down a ball of the opposing alliance, who recieves the points?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

To arizonafoxx: Yes, look at G09:

<G09> During the HYBRID PERIOD, each TRACKBALL that is removed from the OVERPASS (i.e. completely removed from its initial TARGET LOCATION and not in contact with any portions of the OVERPASS) at the end of the HYBRID PERIOD will earn 8 points.

It specifically mentions the hybrid phase.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

So the red robot in the beginning in the animation broke the rule?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Are we able to have two infrared controllers on our robot?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

yes but you can only have one driver then.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

You would need to consult the Parts Use Flowchart to find out about the legality of the part. Since it is a duplicate of something in the KoP, I'm inclined to say yes, but since it is not available as COTS, maybe not. In any case, because of <G49> and <R65>, you would still only be allowed to use four buttons on your remote.
Are you saying that you can have more than one RoboCoach? I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

My bad.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

That is what we are trying to decide. When the FIRST website gets the Q&A going, (and the server speeds up) we'll get our answers.

But we are left with speculation (as far as I know) until then.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

For the extra Robo-Coach I believe that in the human demonstration Woodie had said that a team could have to seperate people doing the job, I'm having difficulty finding the rule to suppot this, but that may be why so some people are confused about the Robo-Coach rule.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

The definition of Robocoach is clear that there can only be one robocoach PER TEAM, (ROBOCOACH: A pre-college student team member designated as the only team member permitted to provide external stimuli to the ROBOT from either of the two ALLIANCE.
ROBOCOACH STATIONS. There is one ROBOCOACH per TEAM.), but why couldn't teams share robocoaches?

Anyways, what is the advantage of having two robocoaches? I would think that they would just interfere with each other.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Well first I was just adressing where the confusion of a possible two Robo-Coaches came from, and this was the human demonstration.

But there is an advantage to two Robo-Coaches, actually there are a couple..

1.One of the coaches may have a better view and as long as they are communicating well only one would steer the robot so the objective could get completed faster.

2.With all the remotes, robots, obstructions, and distance in this game between the robot and Robo-Coach signals could be not found or misread by the robot, if you put a coach at each station you are doubling the chances that your robot will pick up on the signals more effectively.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Hey what about the idea of shooting a metal plate at the trackballs?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

If it is still attached to you, then it's still part of the robot, and would be a violation of the height rule. If it isn't attached to you, then it would be a violation of this:

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

you can't shoot any object from the robot, beside the trackball itself. I'm not sure which rule exactly but i know it's illegal, and possibly against safety rules

Hybrid Mode
 

How do you control your robot in the hybrid mode? Please explain the 3 by 5 cards. Reference:G49

Re: Hybrid Mode
 

The hybrid mode allows the ROBOCOACH to select from 4 preprogrammed autonomous commands to fulfill a certain task. The 3x5 cards are to list what 4 commands your ROBOCOACH can perform from his remote (Probably for fairness purposes so you don't somehow execute more than the 4 listed commands)

Tomasz Bania

Re: Hybrid Mode
 

thanks that was helpful!!!!!!!

Re: Hybrid Mode
 

<G01> HYBRID PERIOD - The HYBRID PERIOD is the 15-second period at the start of the MATCH. Driver control of the ROBOT is not permitted at this time. During this period, the ROBOTS may react only to sensor inputs and commands programmed into the onboard control system. The only external signals that may be received by the ROBOT are those sent from ALLIANCE ROBOCOACHES. No external signals are permitted from any other source. The ROBOT may react to no more than four distinct external commands provided by the ROBOCOACH. All ROBOT safety rules are still applicable during the HYBRID PERIOD. The HYBRID PERIOD ends when the arena timer displays zero seconds left in the period.

So you can use a mix of pre-programming and remote control via infrared receiver.

<G49> The Signaling Card shall be a 3-inch by 5-inch card listing the
one to four actions that can be commanded by the ROBOCOACH.

On the card, you must list what actions can be performed using the remote in Hybrid mode.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I'm curious about what they mean by commands or actions your robot can do. For example, if I had a button that was used as an arm up/down toggle (press the button to go up, press again for down), would that violate the rules because the robot is doing two actions from one command? Or is it legal because there is one command (toggle arm state), but what the robot does with it depends on what state the robot's arm is in.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

does anyone know when the Q&A will be up?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I think that it is just the one command: toggle arm control.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Enjoy!
These are the stills of the rule being broken in the animation which violates G20<>G36

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

but why would they violate the rules in the animation.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Because im thinking, the rule is not valid or the data from the animation was not valid:eek:

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

<G36> HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

Because the red forklift bot is above the 6ft limit in the opponent's home stretch (the quarter of the arena right before the finish lines).

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I think he was refering to the fact of why did they mess up (did they?) in the animation, and not how did they mess up in the animation.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Is going clockwise in the field considered a violation of the rules and is penalized?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Since the red robot's "forklift" is over the 'overpass', it is over 6' 6'' and the robot is on the blue alliances 'homestretch'. This does seem to be breaking the rules, unless a definition somewhere is missunderstood.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

You can only go clockwise in the quarter of the arena that you are currently in.

And you are penalized if you cross a line going clockwise.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Quick question if you send a code in hybrid mode and you press a button and the robot moves forward, and if you hold it down, the arm moves up. Would that be one or two commands?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

One, because it is like a toggle.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

so in a selected quarter of a field you may move as you wish?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Yes

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

so the fact that you can only have 4 commmands isnt limited by the rules it is just limited by the controller, so if you have one command toggle to another set of commmands, that is ok?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

A question about the IR thingy.
Is it possible to have one of the 4 cahnnels swith different modes, for example, switch between arm control and drive control, and those making the other 3 buttons do a different thing in each of those modes?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

FIRST im confused on why Dean said that "Overdrive isn't a hint" when it was the game......WHAT COULD THIS MEAN....HAVE THEY ALL BECOME AS MISCHIEVIOUS AS DAVE?!?!?!?!:ahh: lol

2-A robot cannot be over 6' in an opponents home stretch so then how is one to play defense by removing balls or to even more important put balls into play?? can you sit behind the finish and reach back in...that would put your bot over 6' in the opponents home stretch....HELP!?!?!?!

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

there's alot more information on the IR remote in section 8.3.8

according to that you cannot have the robot do different things when you press any series of buttons. however, i'm not sure if this includes having a button toggle between 2 simple functions, like toggling an arm between moving up and down?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

After reading only section 7 of the rules, I thought this was possible. But after reading section 8, I'm sure it's not. According to <R65>, "Active SIGNALING DEVICES shall: be able to switch between no more than four states or conditions (i.e. send no more than four messages)... [and] not use changes in the signal states to encode or transmit larger messages (e.g. Morse code)."

Having a "mode switch" plus three other buttons would qualify as six "states" and, thus, is illegal. Additionally, having a multi-button sequence is also illegal. However, I think having one button do two things is allowed as long as it can be described as one thing and the robot autonomously decides which of the two to do, for example, arm toggle.

See also http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=60694

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Also, as I just added to the first post, the youtube video clearly shows a red robot above the overpass in the blue home stretch!

Youtube Still Frame

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Hey all, I had a question regarding breaking the plane lines of the four quadrants. What if a robot crashes into your robot and the only way fo ryou to get out is to back up over a line? Is this still a penatly you aren't doing it to gain an advantage.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

The other robot has 6 seconds to move before he's disqualified or receives a penalty, so you just wait it out.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

In your situation, im not sure. I remember seeing that if a robot from a different alliance pushes your robot across the line your alliance will not be penalized. When you say "Crashing" I dont mean if they are intentionally pushing you over the line, or if there is accidental contact and the two robots become intangled. Clarify and Ill see if i can help more.
Joey

Edit: Here is the rule
<G23> Causing PENALTIES - A ROBOT’s action shall not cause an opposing ROBOT to break a
rule and thus incur penalties. Any rule violations committed by the affected ROBOT shall be
excused, and no penalties will be assigned. For example, an opposing ROBOT may not be
pushed into another ROBOT in an attempt to cause a IMPEDING situation and violation of
Rule <G40> by the opponent, nor may a TRACKBALL be placed intentionally on an
opposing ROBOT for the purpose of causing the opponent to violate Rule <G26>.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

If you're really stuck, then you probably won't be penalized for crossing the line.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

No, this rule is only in effect when you Signal to Pass (bumping another robot)

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Is it possible to have a string of commands from a controller meaning different things?

i.e.

#1,#2,#of ft to drive forward - Drive Forward
#1,#3,#position to move arm to (three set positions on the y-axis)

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

No, you can't.
Well, technically, you can, but you'll be disqualified.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

It's because you can only have a maximum of four commands.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

But technically you are only sending out four commands, in different orders to different things

For example if you press #1 while the arm is down, and it goes up, and then you hit it again, and it goes down, wouldn't that be considered two commands?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

yes and i believe is not allowed...

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

a question my team was wondering about witch we think is a yes is that if the balls are never removed from the overpass will they still count for the 24 points (12 each)?

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

in addition to rules <R65>, <R69>, and <G01>, rule <G49> clearly states that you must have only 4 distinct actions that the robocoach can signal

see also my post here
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=25

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I did notice that they cleared up any maximum size confusion by changing the max size from 72" x 72" to an 80" diameter.

That makes things a lot easier to understand and it is one good thing FIRST has done to clear up confusing rules.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Although it clarifys, I really dislike that rule. If you are an arm robot, you probably will make the long deminsion your sides for front/back stability. So, your robot is 38 inches long plus several inches of pool noodle. The balls are 40", so assuming that your gripper is 25" long (in order to get past the center of the ball), your arm can only extend out of the front of your robot ~15". To me, that seems like it unnecessarily stifles some arm designs.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

I have a question regarding <G28>
Does anyone know what the heck bulldozing is? It's not defined in the manual, and nobody on my team has an explanation for what it is either.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Inadvertandly running into Trackballs in normal play with no intent to herd (control) them. It is basically to prevent one from getting a penalty for herding while in poseession if herding is not the intent, but you hit a trackball.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Still, an official definition would be nice. Add it to the list of things to ask!

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

Thanks! I can't believe I didn't see that, but it makes a lot of sense now. Of course, once the official Q&A forums are up we'll get FIRST's definition, but this is great for now. Thank you so much.

Re: 2008 game confusion thread
 

There are a huge number of threads that are covering this issue, and I'm not sure which one to pick, so I'm going with this one. I'm hoping this will help whoever wins the race to ask about these when the Q&A opens up. (Or I may just be indulging a tendency to overanalyze things.)

I am assuming that the home stretch is the area from the alliance station wall to the team colored stripe/color coded piping side of the overpass (i.e. the end of the finish line), meaning the entire structure of the overpass is within the corresponding home stretch.

I'm finding two visible and one implied apparent rule violations in the game animation.

The one that I've been seeing a lot of comment on is at 1:51. The red forklift robot in the blue homestretch extends its forks well above the overpass to knock down the red trackball during hybrid period. This appears to be a violation of G36 and is the one that keeps getting mentioned in discussion.

This may happen again during teleoperated mode at 2:17, since the blue gripperbot in the background is in the red home stretch and appears to be doing something above the camera frame. The blue ball with the dots had still been in the red-side overpass at the end of hybrid mode, and we see the blue gripperbot take possession of it from the ground at 2:32 in the back half of the red lane.

The other one that bothers me is at about 2:57. Blue gripper robot in the blue home stretch breaks the plane of the lane divider and the red finish line in a clockwise direction to descore the red trackball on the overpass during teleoperated mode. If I'm not misinterpreting it, this appears to be a double violation of G22:

As appears to be the consensus, these two rules appear to be problematic in combination, both from the perspective of getting one's second trackball without help from the other alliance and descoring. Descoring appears to have been intended to be legal, per G29.

The combination of G22 and G36 would indicate that the opposing team will have placed them on the overpass above their own finish line (assuming both of their trackballs were in play at some point). My analysis would indicate that the only legal methods to descore in the opponent's lane or retrieve your own second trackball would be:

a) Knocking the ball off by carefully but energetically striking the very small area of the ball below the 6' mark (bouncing it out of the overpass in an uncontrolled direction)

b) Carefully but energetically striking the very small area of the ball extending into the non-home-stretch portion of the opponent's lane (sending the ball clockwise).

c) Striking the ball with a thrown trackball (of your own color, since you probably have to take possession (G29) to throw it, and you wouldn't want to miss and hurdle your opponent's trackball anyway) launched from below the 6' mark. If successful, this would result in a fairly crowd-pleasing elastic collision that would send trackballs flying in two directions at high speed. :yikes:

I suspect the intent of G36 was to reduce the ability to deflect the other alliance's hurdling attempt, but I'm not pleased with the side effects.