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-   -   How do you get your other ball (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60767)

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:02

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 670505)
The problem with that is that the track ball sits where less than 4" (closer to 3") of it is able to be struck. Beyond that you will be breaking the plane of the opponents finish line and you will incur 2 penalties (1 for breaking the plane of the finish line going clockwise, and one for being above 6' in the opponents "home stretch"). Ahhh, precision :D

Then it would seem necessary to build a mechanism capable of being very precise (or just program it to be more precise, most likely by having multiple speeds by pressing different buttons).

shinigami473 06-01-2008 22:12

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Another thing about this, is that in past years the refs discounted all points made out of penalties. So if you were to remove your ball from the opponents overpass, by either exceed the 6' rule or breaking the plane going clockwise, you could discount some if not all the points made by that ball.

One more thing that confuses me, is that in the game animation in hybrid mode the red forklift robot clearly exceeded the 6' rule and knocked its ball off the opposing alliances overpass. It is an animation, and not the most accurate way to get rules. I think they just did that so to have all balls in play.

Personally I believe that there will be an amendment to the rules that you can only exceed the 6' plane in order to get your trackball.

As it is right now there are really only 2 ways that I can think of to get it off the over pass.

1) use the other track ball and launch you other track ball into the one on the opposing alliances overpass

2) some how stack 2 robots so that the top robot is able to knock you track ball off the opposing alliances overpass without expanding to a height of over 6' (this does not violate any of the rules, because all the rules dealing with either entanglment on climing onto another robot say it is not acceptable to do to robots on the opposing alliance)

these are just my thoughts, please post a correction if there is something wrong

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 22:17

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx34 (Post 670520)
Then it would seem necessary to build a mechanism capable of being very precise (or just program it to be more precise, most likely by having multiple speeds by pressing different buttons).

Yup. Precise and while in traffic :O

I think it's going to be fun watching teams try.

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:30

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 670547)
Yup. Precise and while in traffic :O

I think it's going to be fun watching teams try.

But the traffic shouldn't matter. If an opposing alliance robot causes your robot to incur a penalty; there will be no penalty called (<G23>).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinigami473 (Post 670538)
Another thing about this, is that in past years the refs discounted all points made out of penalties. So if you were to remove your ball from the opponents overpass, by either exceed the 6' rule or breaking the plane going clockwise, you could discount some if not all the points made by that ball.

One more thing that confuses me, is that in the game animation in hybrid mode the red forklift robot clearly exceeded the 6' rule and knocked its ball off the opposing alliances overpass. It is an animation, and not the most accurate way to get rules. I think they just did that so to have all balls in play.

Personally I believe that there will be an amendment to the rules that you can only exceed the 6' plane in order to get your trackball.

As it is right now there are really only 2 ways that I can think of to get it off the over pass.

1) use the other track ball and launch you other track ball into the one on the opposing alliances overpass

2) some how stack 2 robots so that the top robot is able to knock you track ball off the opposing alliances overpass without expanding to a height of over 6' (this does not violate any of the rules, because all the rules dealing with either entanglment on climing onto another robot say it is not acceptable to do to robots on the opposing alliance)

these are just my thoughts, please post a correction if there is something wrong


The first strategy seems legal though nigh-impossible to accomplish. The second is illegal as offensive or defensive ramping is illegal. (Rule <R19>) The idea of removing the ball from the quadrant opposite the opponent's home stretch across the opponent's finish line still stands as legal assuming you don't cross the plane of the finish line.

shinigami473 06-01-2008 22:41

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx34 (Post 670570)
The first strategy seems legal though nigh-impossible to accomplish. The second is illegal as offensive or defensive ramping is illegal. (Rule <R19>) The idea of removing the ball from the quadrant opposite the opponent's home stretch across the opponent's finish line still stands as legal assuming you don't cross the plane of the finish line.

I did not mean that a robot was to use a ramp, I just ment that one robot would somehow (maybe magicly :D ) get onto another robot of the same alliance.

Could you start on another robot, as long as you are touching the back wall?

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:50

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shinigami473 (Post 670591)
I did not mean that a robot was to use a ramp, I just ment that one robot would somehow (maybe magicly :D ) get onto another robot of the same alliance.

Could you start on another robot, as long as you are touching the back wall?

Robots cannot touch other robots at the start of the match (<G15>)

I really don't see any other way that a robot could be placed on another robot without giving valuable resources (such as time and weight budget space) on a mechanism to pick up another robot. I don't think that that is a likely course of action. With all the noise this has stirred, I'm sure that a rule change will be made or at least a clarification made.

Blue_Mist 06-01-2008 23:27

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boiler (Post 669620)
Unfortunately, the wedge rule is back and very clear in <R19>: "Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed"

A part of the rule directly after that sentence reads: All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical...

So, since 2005, our robots have always had a 9 1/2 degree wedge, which is perfectly legal.

Wvoo369 06-01-2008 23:43

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.

If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you.

EricH 07-01-2008 00:00

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wvoo369 (Post 670676)
There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.

If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you.

I see only one point value for penalties (unless you count disable and DQ as point values.) It isn't 2 points. There is no distinction made between Hybrid and Teleoperated.

ALIBI 07-01-2008 07:20

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Maybe the GDC wrote these rules on purpose and they intend that the only way you can get your second trackball is when your opposing alliance removes your trackball to avoid the 12 points for being on the overpass at the end of the game.

Maybe my memory is faling, in the past, didn't we usually get the score from the game animation? Perhaps there were several things shown that penalties were given for? Don't assume that everything seen in the animation was legal. i.e. reaching over from one quad to another with a manipulator that is obviously over six feet above the opposing alliances home stretch to remove a trackball placed in the overpass. Perhaps the illustration was to say that even though the trackball was removed, it was still counted and the robot violated the height rule?

Ziaholic 07-01-2008 11:28

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Very good point. We cannot assume that everything in the animation is legal.

sloteera 07-01-2008 13:07

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff 888 (Post 669154)
the first ball is on your side and you can reach it but then the other ball you can not have your arm extended because the rack where the ball is sitting in the opponents home zone <G36> so how do you get that ball


We gonna try to reach the other ball on autonomous mode. The animation shows that in Hibrid Period you can get the ball with your bot above 6 feet...


PS: I hope that you can understand my english...:o

GaryVoshol 07-01-2008 13:34

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sloteera (Post 671181)
We gonna try to reach the other ball on autonomous mode. The animation shows that in Hibrid Period you can get the ball with your bot above 6 feet...


PS: I hope that you can understand my english...:o

We understand your English very well. However, just because you saw it in the animation, that doesn't make it legal. There have been mistakes in the animations in the past.

sloteera 07-01-2008 13:41

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 671200)
We understand your English very well. However, just because you saw it in the animation, that doesn't make it legal. There have been mistakes in the animations in the past.


So, independent of the match moment, our robot CAN'T stay above 6 feet?

Chuck Glick 07-01-2008 13:47

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sloteera (Post 671206)
So, independent of the match moment, our robot CAN'T stay above 6 feet?

You only MUST be under 6 feet in two instances, one being at the beginning of a match, and in the OPPOSING ALLIANCE HOMEZONE.

Example for these areas:



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