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-   -   How do you get your other ball (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60767)

Jeff 801 05-01-2008 21:31

How do you get your other ball
 
the first ball is on your side and you can reach it but then the other ball you can not have your arm extended because the rack where the ball is sitting in the opponents home zone <G36> so how do you get that ball

daftpunk79 05-01-2008 21:34

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
i think that may only refer to at the end of the game...im pretty sure you can knock it down anytime during the game

pakratt1991 05-01-2008 21:50

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I had the same though and posted this in a different thread, the robot in the game animation does it, are we not allowed to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pakratt1991 (Post 669112)
I says that you can not extend past a height of six feet in your opponents Home Stretch, so how are you supposed to get your color ball of their overpass?

Rule <G36>
HOME STRETCH Height Restriction – ROBOTS in the HOME STRETCH of the opposing ALLIANCE can not be more than 6 feet tall. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

also
Rule <G22>
Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.


So are you supposed to go passed your opponents finish line, turn around, and hit your ball off the overpass with out crossing the plane of the Finish Line? The robot in the animation extends past the 6 foot height limit to reach the ball.


Kellen Hill 05-01-2008 22:19

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I am predicting a rule change in this area.

A few other ways the ball could get down are:

1. Use your other ball to make contact and knock it down,
2. The other team will want to get it down so your team doesn't get the 12 point bonus at the end of the match for having your ball still up there.

These are ways to get it down but I really think that they will change something.

Jeff 801 05-01-2008 22:46

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by daftpunk79 (Post 669157)
i think that may only refer to at the end of the game...im pretty sure you can knock it down anytime during the game

you can but you wil get a 10 point deduction

cicib99 05-01-2008 23:28

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
yeah i think theres going to be several rule changes.

a lot of ideas r contradicting...

Taylor 05-01-2008 23:31

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
What if this isn't a mistake on the GDC's part? What if <G36> is intentionally worded? This could yield some very interesting game strategies.
1)Leaving the trackball up there could yield the alliance a 12-point endgame bonus.
2)The opposing alliance could accidentally knock down the trackball either by attempting a hurdle or by attempting to dislodge their own trackball
3)The opposing alliance could dislodge the ball during teleoperated period, giving zero removal points but secure in the notion that it would take seven trackball-laps to outscore the 12 point endgame bonus
4)Assuming the opposing alliance is going to be launching hurdle attempts with a ten-pound trackball, it may be in a team's best interest not to have an extended (and most likely unprotected) appendage near the overpass

Otaku 06-01-2008 05:56

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Well it says that a robot shall not be taller than 6', It never says that the robot can not be above the 6ft plane. Lets say the ground were higher, or... it was on a ramp-bot. Then the bot on top could be under 72" tall (NOT under 72" from the ground) and still have some room to play with. Now that's an interesting strategy, I think. That's also probably a strategy that nobody'll take (enough with ramps already) and would still get you penalized (for being a smarta -- yeah).

Especially since one of the dictionary definitions of height is "The distance from the bottom to the top of an object."

Also, knocking off opponent's ball = they lose 12 points. Doing it in their home stretch, you lose 10. If the scores are even, that's a decent strategy. It'd win a match, that's for sure.

neoshaakti 06-01-2008 06:54

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Otaku (Post 669596)
Well it says that a robot shall not be taller than 6', It never says that the robot can not be above the 6ft plane. Lets say the ground were higher, or... it was on a ramp-bot. Then the bot on top could be under 72" tall (NOT under 72" from the ground) and still have some room to play with. Now that's an interesting strategy, I think. That's also probably a strategy that nobody'll take (enough with ramps already) and would still get you penalized (for being a smarta -- yeah).

Especially since one of the dictionary definitions of height is "The distance from the bottom to the top of an object."

Also, knocking off opponent's ball = they lose 12 points. Doing it in their home stretch, you lose 10. If the scores are even, that's a decent strategy. It'd win a match, that's for sure.

woahhh that is a very sophisticated strategy you got there ;)
that would enable your team to also score on both overpasses during the endgame (unless you just score on your own side of the overpass...)

Otaku 06-01-2008 07:02

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by neoshaakti (Post 669607)
woahhh that is a very sophisticated strategy you got there ;)
that would enable your team to also score on both overpasses during the endgame (unless you just score on your own side of the overpass...)

KOP + Regional Registration: $5000.
New Trackballs 'casue you popped the one in the KOP: $12.
Thinking out strategies like a FIRSTer: Priceless.

There's some things money CAN buy. For everything else, there's FIRST.

Paul Copioli 06-01-2008 08:04

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
How about the flag? The flag must be placed so it is 75 inches from the ground. Last time I checked, that is taller than 6'. So that means your robot could never do a lap ...

I expect some clarifications on this rule. I will ask a question as soon as the Q & A is up.

Taylor 06-01-2008 08:07

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Unfortunately, the wedge rule is back and very clear in <R19>: "Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed"

ALIBI 06-01-2008 08:14

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
The arena is divided into four distinct areas, movement between areas is counterclockwise (G42). Once you are in an area, you should be able to move in any direction you want, just leave a passing lane. You could go back and knock the trackball down from the other side since you can not be over six feet tall while in opposing alliances home stretch (G36).

Boiler nailed it, if the trackball stays up for the entire match, it becomes 12 points.

I would like to see a definition of "in" regarding rule G36. Do the boundaries of the home stretch extend to the ceiling? Meaning that if any part of your robot passes over the home stretch without touching the floor, would it be considered a violation? G22 talks about breaking the plane being a violation, rule G36 does not.

GaryVoshol 06-01-2008 08:19

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 669617)
How about the flag? The flag must be placed so it is 75 inches from the ground. Last time I checked, that is taller than 6'. So that means your robot could never do a lap ...

The flag has never been considered a part of the robot. Even so, I doubt it would have enough strength to move the ball off the overpass.

Quote:

I expect some clarifications on this rule. I will ask a question as soon as the Q & A is up.
Unless I beat you to it.

Shelbo 06-01-2008 11:42

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
My thought:
The overpass is 78". The ball in the track of the overpass sits down approximately 8". This means you have to reach 70" to touch the ball. You are permitted to be 72". Those two inches need to be really important.

I welcome any input...

Libby K 06-01-2008 11:57

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli (Post 669617)
How about the flag? The flag must be placed so it is 75 inches from the ground. Last time I checked, that is taller than 6'. So that means your robot could never do a lap ...

I expect some clarifications on this rule. I will ask a question as soon as the Q & A is up.

I'm pretty sure the flag doesn't count toward the height.

Nate Laverdure 06-01-2008 11:59

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 669728)
I'm pretty sure the flag doesn't count toward the height.

Correct, as per <R13>, emphasis mine:
Quote:

<R13> For the purposes of determining compliance with the weight and volume limitations
specified in Rule <R11>, these items are NOT considered part of the ROBOT and are NOT
included in the weight and volume assessment of the ROBOT:
• The 12V battery and its associated half of the Anderson cable quick
connect/disconnect pair (including no more than 12 inches of cable per leg, the
associated cable lugs, connecting bolts, and insulating electrical tape) on board the
ROBOT,
• Any STANDARD BUMPER assemblies included on the ROBOT that are in
compliance with Rule <R08>, up to a maximum of 15 pounds,
The FLAG is not considered part of the ROBOT (however, the flag holder specified in
Rule <R17> IS considered part of the ROBOT, and is included in the ROBOT weight
and volume),

• The OPERATOR CONSOLE.
NOTE
- Weight limit excludes the 12 volt
battery and Anderson cable half.
- Weight and volume limits exclude any
STANDARD BUMPERS constructed
consistent with Rule <R08>.
- Weight and height limits exclude the FLAG
However, for all other purposes the items listed above are considered part of the ROBOT
and must comply with all other applicable rules and requirements.

Chuck Glick 06-01-2008 12:28

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
You ONLY have to be under 6' in the opposing alliance HOMEZONES. Example below.



If a team is on the BLUE ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the RED HOMEZONE.

If a team is on the RED ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the BLUE HOMEZONE.

It is 100% legal to knock the ball BACKWARDS off of the OVERPASS(clockwise). So pass through the opposing HOMEZONE, pause, knock ball BACKWARDS, and go.

Nate Laverdure 06-01-2008 12:32

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick (Post 669745)
So pass through the opposing HOMEZONE, pause, knock ball BACKWARDS, and go.

Check out <G13>:
Quote:

<G13> A TRACKBALL that has CROSSED its own FINISH LINE must CROSS the opponent’s
FINISH LINE before it can score by CROSSING its own FINISH LINE again.
EDIT: Nevermind, I think I get what you're saying now.

Chuck Glick 06-01-2008 12:37

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure (Post 669747)
Check out <G13>:

If the trackball is still on the OVERPASS, on the opposing side, it has not crossed ANY lines. Knocking it backward would be completely legal at the beginning of a match, or initially just to get the ball down for your own use.

People are concerned that the track ball that is on the side opposite of theirs is impossible to retrieve without breaking rules.

Taylor 06-01-2008 12:39

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick (Post 669745)
You ONLY have to be under 6' in the opposing alliance HOMEZONES. Example below.


If a team is on the BLUE ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the RED HOMEZONE.

If a team is on the RED ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the BLUE HOMEZONE.

It is 100% legal to knock the ball BACKWARDS off of the OVERPASS(clockwise). So pass through the opposing HOMEZONE, pause, knock ball BACKWARDS, and go.

Unless I'm looking at the drawings wrong, the homestretch extends to the alliance's finish line, which is under the far end of the overpass, not the middle of the field as you have it.

Chuck Glick 06-01-2008 12:41

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boiler (Post 669751)
Unless I'm looking at the drawings wrong, the homestretch extends to the alliance's finish line, which is under the far end of the overpass, not the middle of the field as you have it.

True, the drawing was quickly made for basic demo purposes. Fixing that now.

EDIT: Original Drawing Updated.

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 12:58

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I haven't done the math, but it seems to me that if the ball is sitting on the rail, and the rail is directly above the finish line then the ball should extend beyond the finish line ... thus you should be able to knock the ball off of the rails by striking the part that is beyond the opponents finish line without your robot being in their "home strech" or breaking the plane of the finish line.

ALIBI 06-01-2008 13:17

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boiler (Post 669751)
Unless I'm looking at the drawings wrong, the homestretch extends to the alliance's finish line, which is under the far end of the overpass, not the middle of the field as you have it.


I am confused. Page 5 of 7 of THE ARENA. As the ROBOTS move in a counter-clockwise direction around TRACK, the quadrant of the TRACK immediately preceeding the the FINISH LINE for each alliance is known as the "HOME STRETCH"

Wouldn't that mean that the finish line itself is not part of the home stretch? The home stretch is bounded by the finish line. Does that mean the finish line is part of the home stretch? Or does it mean that the leading edge of the finish line is the boundary?

I tend to think that since the wording says the home strech is the quadrant of the track immediately preceeding the finish line, that the Home Stretch does not include the area above the finish line, but rather the area before the finish line.

Kellen Hill 06-01-2008 13:25

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Just like the ball hangs down under the overpass, the ball also crosses over the plane of the homestretch. This makes it possible but difficult to knock that trackball off by turning around once you are out of the other teams homestretch.

Mike1259 06-01-2008 13:44

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Is the hight limit in affect during Hybrid mode?

jgannon 06-01-2008 14:05

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick (Post 669745)
It is 100% legal to knock the ball BACKWARDS off of the OVERPASS(clockwise). So pass through the opposing HOMEZONE, pause, knock ball BACKWARDS, and go.

Chuck, have you seen <G22>? I really don't think that's legal.
Quote:

<G22> Direction Of Traffic – ROBOTS must proceed around the TRACK in a counter-clockwise direction. Once a ROBOT has CROSSED a LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE, it shall not break the plane of the line by moving in the clockwise direction. A PENALTY will be assigned for each infraction.

flamefixed 06-01-2008 14:13

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Having the very outter edges of the ball, or i read in another thread that 2 inches of the ball will be below the 6ft mark, be the only area for contact to try to knock it down (its a pretty darn big/heavy ball) is very unreasonable.

My take on this is...the rule was worded so you have to knock the trackball down backwards and go all the way around before you can use it to score additonal points. and the rule was just worded poorly. (keep the scores closer, which is an obvious goal for this year because of no possible 60 point chunks at the very end of the match)

Or, being ON your opponents finish line. According to the rules, you have broken the plane and technically out of the homestretch. (maybe this was designed to protect the rack the balls are sitting on, dont want high speed, potentially out of control robots flying around with over 6 feet of leverage. may not end good:] haha)

Or pure strategy, which would be entirely annoying, though add a wonderful twist to the game.

I think these are more realistic ideas than 2 inches lee-way trying to knock over 10pounds and 40 inches. plus, have fun refs judging those two inches.

just my two cents :]

jgannon 06-01-2008 14:27

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flamefixed (Post 669831)
Or, being ON your opponents finish line. According to the rules, you have broken the plane and technically out of the homestretch.

That's not correct. Breaking the plane is the metric for determining if you're going clockwise, not counter-clockwise. When going counter-clockwise, what section of the track you're on depends on the CROSSING definition.
Quote:

CROSSING: The act of a TRCKBALL or ROBOT passing through the plane defined by a line (i.e. LANE MARKER or FINISH LINE) when it is projected vertically upwards. A TRACKBALL or ROBOT shall have CROSSED a line when all parts of the object, while traveling in a counterclockwise direction, have completely passed through the plane.
We saw this in the human demonstration during kickoff... a robot broke the plane of a line during hybrid, but didn't entirely CROSS it, so he didn't get any bonus points.

Chuck Glick 06-01-2008 14:50

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jgannon (Post 669825)
Chuck, have you seen <G22>? I really don't think that's legal.

I did, but I'm pretty sure that the intent of the rule is to keep robots from going demolition derby style and going against traffic.

mcmouse 06-01-2008 14:51

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
1 Attachment(s)
:confused:
I think we reay need clarification on G36 and R16. the hight limit in the oponents home stretch. even the animation seemed to violate both rules as the red bot is obviosely much to hig for being in the blu home stretch.
see animation video at 1min53sec or the attached picture of it.
lets see the Q&A and team update. Team 451 - Jens

jgannon 06-01-2008 15:14

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Glick (Post 669875)
I did, but I'm pretty sure that the intent of the rule is to keep robots from going demolition derby style and going against traffic.

There's a possibility that your interpretation of the intent is correct, but as it's worded right now, there is no room for interpretation. Reaching from the other side as you describe would garner you a ten point penalty. Maybe this will change next week, but assigning some kind of intent to the rules when none is given only confuses the issue.

flamefixed 06-01-2008 15:19

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
well some near guaranteed changes, or at the least, clarification of the rules should definitely be in the near future...hopefully

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 15:23

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I am pretty sure you'll be able to knock the trackball off of the rails from beyond the opponents finish line without crossing it, since it will hang over the line.

The difficulty will be ensuring you are beyond the line before attempting it, being lined up enough, and being able to apply enough force to the Trackball

Tottanka 06-01-2008 15:24

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
you could get the ball while not beeing in the opposing side's home strech zone.
You cross their finish line, go back dropping the ball/grabbing it and there you have it.
This might be intentional by the GDC, not a mistake like many of us hurried to asume.
The mistake though, is in the Game Animation, which means that Lavery is still messing with our heads!

EricH 06-01-2008 16:19

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tottanka (Post 669913)
you could get the ball while not beeing in the opposing side's home strech zone.
You cross their finish line, go back dropping the ball/grabbing it and there you have it.

Chuck proposed that. You can't recross any lines or even break the planes unless you have gone a full lap. So, you cross the finish line and then hit the ball. You now run the risk of getting a 10-pointer for breaking the plane.

Tottanka 06-01-2008 16:20

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 669971)
Chuck proposed that. You can't recross any lines or even break the planes unless you have gone a full lap. So, you cross the finish line and then hit the ball. You now run the risk of getting a 10-pointer for breaking the plane.

But it might jube be woeth it in order to get the ball dropped and usable for Hurdling.

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 16:28

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 669971)
Chuck proposed that. You can't recross any lines or even break the planes unless you have gone a full lap. So, you cross the finish line and then hit the ball. You now run the risk of getting a 10-pointer for breaking the plane.

Why do you risk getting the penalty?

The finish line is directly under the 2nd bar. As long as whatever you hit the trackball with is vertical and is outside the bar, then you have not broken the plane. The ball will overhang the bar and thus can be hit and knocked off the rails without penalty.

EricH 06-01-2008 16:31

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 669985)
Why do you risk getting the penalty?

The finish line is directly under the 2nd bar. As long as whatever you hit the trackball with is vertical and is outside the bar, then you have not broken the plane. The ball will overhang the bar and thus can be hit and knocked off the rails without penalty.

If you are slightly off/your vertical member bends over the line, you broke the plane. If a ref sees you, they can give a penalty. I'm also not sure it's physically possible to do this. (ball and rail dynamics)

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 16:40

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 669992)
If you are slightly off/your vertical member bends over the line, you broke the plane. If a ref sees you, they can give a penalty. I'm also not sure it's physically possible to do this. (ball and rail dynamics)

I'm not too concerned about the vertical member being off (this is what spirit levels are for :D ) ... I'd be more concerned with a portion of the robot hanging over the finish line while we extend above the 6' high restriction.

Mark Pendergast 06-01-2008 16:44

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I have a concern about this situation as well.

The animation did show a robot knocking the ball off the far side, from its OWN side of the field, by reaching over the center line. (I can't believe that this is what they intended :ahh: .)

I hope they change the rule to allow violations of the 6 foot rule in Hybrid mode.

GBIT 06-01-2008 16:46

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

given a trackball center at (0,0)
given a trackball contact point with a rail at (16,y) (the rails are 32" apart)
given the trackball is 20" and assuming it remains approximately spherical, then...

x^2 + y^2 = r^2
16^2 + y^2 = 400
y^2 = 400 - 256
y = 12

So the contact point for the rails will be 12" below the center of the ball. This means that between the rails, the bottom of the ball should be 8" below them, and thus 2" below the maximum allowed height of a robot in the opponent zone. However, this is in an ideal world where the rails are infinitely thin and the ball is perfectly sperical. Since the rails are 1.5" wide and the ball will deform some, the ball may be slightly higher than where I computed it to be, and the contact space for a robot will be very, very small.
I know this math has been posted in a few other threads but the math is faulty so ill post my teams

We noticed the the equation above used numbers assuming the ball was on center with the pipes. this is not true seeing that the ball rests on the top of the pipes. We found the hang to be (assuming the the 6.5' overpass is on center with the pipes) it would hang only 1.5 inches below the 6' legal limit. If the 6.5' is at the bottom of the pipes it would hang only .67 inches from the 6' limit. this is assuming the the ball in of 40" diameter.


here is the diagram:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...6&d=1199655203

Sir Cadogen 06-01-2008 17:01

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
The animation showed the opposing alliance knocking off the opponents track ball at the end of the match from the other lane. Could you do the same at the beginning of the match to your track ball?

David Brinza 06-01-2008 17:08

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Suppose you clear the finish line then raise something to contact the part of the ball that overhangs the overpass. If this appendage of the robot contacts the pipe supporting the ball, have you broken the plane? Would this be a violation of <G22> even if the robot base is not moving in a clockwise direction? Lot's of stuff for FIRST Q&A to address on this topic...

GBIT 06-01-2008 19:00

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Brinza (Post 670035)
Suppose you clear the finish line then raise something to contact the part of the ball that overhangs the overpass. If this appendage of the robot contacts the pipe supporting the ball, have you broken the plane? Would this be a violation of <G22> even if the robot base is not moving in a clockwise direction? Lot's of stuff for FIRST Q&A to address on this topic...

no the Home stretch is ,from what my team told me, the wall to the preceding edge of the black and white checker.

EricH 06-01-2008 19:12

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GBIT (Post 670212)
no the Home stretch is ,from what my team told me, the wall to the preceding edge of the black and white checker.

It doesn't matter what anyone tells you if the Game Design Committee says differently. The GDC hasn't declared which edge is the right one, or if it's the middle, or anything. Unless they can show you in the manual which edge is right, it's a question for Q&A.

NOTE: On the same topic, CD answers are NOT official rulings. We can offer our interpretations of the rules, we can point you to the appropriate rule, and we can send you to the Q&A for the answer. More than that we cannot do.

GBIT 06-01-2008 19:13

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 670245)
It doesn't matter what anyone tells you if the Game Design Committee says differently. The GDC hasn't declared which edge is the right one, or if it's the middle, or anything. Unless they can show you in the manual which edge is right, it's a question for Q&A.

NOTE: On the same topic, CD answers are NOT official rulings. We can offer our interpretations of the rules, we can point you to the appropriate rule, and we can send you to the Q&A for the answer. More than that we cannot do.

o i know in the manual they said it stated the preceding edge, and i would ask on the Q&A but it isn't up yet.:ahh:

EricH 06-01-2008 19:21

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GBIT (Post 670250)
o i know in the manual they said it stated the preceding edge, and i would ask on the Q&A but it isn't up yet.:ahh:

I'll counter that with this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 6.1.2
The pipes of the OVERPASS structure coplanar with
the vertical projection of the gaffers tape are colored to provide further indication of the plane of the FINISH LINE.

From the pictures, the appropriate pipes are right above the 2" colored tape, which is right after the checkered tape. (Admittedly, those are not to scale and used for illustrative purposes, but I've heard elsewhere on CD that pipes are aligned that way.)

GBIT 06-01-2008 19:24

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 670259)
I'll counter that with this:
From the pictures, the appropriate pipes are right above the 2" colored tape, which is right after the checkered tape. (Admittedly, those are not to scale and used for illustrative purposes, but I've heard elsewhere on CD that pipes are aligned that way.)

ok personally i agree with you i think it is the plane of the overpass but i was told other wise, but i went to the kickoff and the lines do line up with the overpass but the do not line up with each other so this will have to be a Q&A subject.

EricH 06-01-2008 19:26

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GBIT (Post 670261)
ok personally i agree with you i think it is the plane of the overpass but i was told other wise, but i went to the kickoff and the lines do line up with the overpass but the do not line up with each other so this will have to be a Q&A subject.

'Course they don't line up with each other. If they did, one alliance would have an advantage, unless they put them right in the middle, and then there isn't a nice easy visual indicator, not to mention a protected place for the lap counters.

bluexice27 06-01-2008 19:32

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
I have a question.. In other past games any game piece in possession of your robot was considered part of your robot, is it the same for this year? And if not then we are technically able to carry the trackball and use it to knock off our other trackball off the opponents overpass ?

GBIT 06-01-2008 19:36

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluexice27 (Post 670271)
I have a question.. In other past games any game piece in possession of your robot was considered part of your robot, is it the same for this year? And if not then we are technically able to carry the trackball and use it to knock off our other trackball off the opponents overpass ?

I don't know about it being part of the robot but i can't see why you couldn't use it to knock down the other ball.

assuming it leaves contact with your robot.

bluexice27 06-01-2008 19:43

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GBIT (Post 670277)
I don't know about it being part of the robot but i can't see why you couldn't use it to knock down the other ball.

assuming it leaves contact with your robot.


Well we have been thinking about it all day and that is the best idea we have for it now, besides going on the other side and pulling it off as we still move, but hopefully they will be making an update on that rule, but I spotted it in other places in the rules also, in the section talking about the opponents home stretch , so that kind of makes me think its set in stone that way .

Iboshi2 06-01-2008 19:55

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
As far as we have seen, there is nothing to stop a robot from using a trackball to dislodge another trackball, as long as your height does not reach above 6 feet in the opposing alliance's home stretch, and as long as your robot does not cross into the zone if attempting to dislodge from the other quadrant. (Great job with the math GBIT! We came to the same answer!)

GBIT 06-01-2008 19:57

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iboshi2 (Post 670302)
(Great job with the math GBIT! We came to the same answer!)


thanks but i can't take most of the credit but i mainly posted it, i only helped a little.

Miniflash 06-01-2008 20:19

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
this is deffinatly going to have to be elaborated on ... i spent 2 hours at lunch with my team and we all had the same question bout the 6 foot rule

bluexice27 06-01-2008 20:20

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Iboshi2 (Post 670302)
and as long as your robot does not cross into the zone if attempting to dislodge from the other quadrant.

are you saying above the overpass or underneath the overpass?, I know as long as our robot body is over the finish line we are good but we aren't sure if our mechanism could then go back over and push the ball off from underneath

EricH 06-01-2008 20:34

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluexice27 (Post 670342)
are you saying above the overpass or underneath the overpass?, I know as long as our robot body is over the finish line we are good but we aren't sure if our mechanism could then go back over and push the ball off from underneath

It's any part of the robot. See <G22>.

Lynx34 06-01-2008 21:43

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
As the rules currently read, I really don't see any problem with going 3/4 the way around the track (passing your finish line, the 1st lane marker, and the opponent's finish line, but NOT the 2nd lane marker) turning around and knocking your second ball off the overpass.

The rules currently say that it is LEGAL to move clockwise as long as you don't break the plane of any of the 4 dividing lines (<G22>) AND you leave enough room for other robots to pass (<G40>).

So, it should be legal to turn around after passing the opponent's finish line, and knocking the ball off WITHOUT any part of the robot crossing the plane of the opponent's finish line.

Other than that, I don't see any way that a robot can legally remove the 2nd ball; and yes, the forklift-bot in the animation did break <g36>, as the rules currently read.

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 21:53

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx34 (Post 670492)
As the rules currently read, I really don't see any problem with going 3/4 the way around the track (passing your finish line, the 1st lane marker, and the opponent's finish line, but NOT the 2nd lane marker) turning around and knocking your second ball off the overpass.

The rules currently say that it is LEGAL to move clockwise as long as you don't break the plane of any of the 4 dividing lines (<G22>) AND you leave enough room for other robots to pass (<G40>).

So, it should be legal to turn around after passing the opponent's finish line, and knocking the ball off WITHOUT any part of the robot crossing the plane of the opponent's finish line.

The problem with that is that the track ball sits where less than 4" (closer to 3") of it is able to be struck. Beyond that you will be breaking the plane of the opponents finish line and you will incur 2 penalties (1 for breaking the plane of the finish line going clockwise, and one for being above 6' in the opponents "home stretch"). Ahhh, precision :D

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:02

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 670505)
The problem with that is that the track ball sits where less than 4" (closer to 3") of it is able to be struck. Beyond that you will be breaking the plane of the opponents finish line and you will incur 2 penalties (1 for breaking the plane of the finish line going clockwise, and one for being above 6' in the opponents "home stretch"). Ahhh, precision :D

Then it would seem necessary to build a mechanism capable of being very precise (or just program it to be more precise, most likely by having multiple speeds by pressing different buttons).

shinigami473 06-01-2008 22:12

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Another thing about this, is that in past years the refs discounted all points made out of penalties. So if you were to remove your ball from the opponents overpass, by either exceed the 6' rule or breaking the plane going clockwise, you could discount some if not all the points made by that ball.

One more thing that confuses me, is that in the game animation in hybrid mode the red forklift robot clearly exceeded the 6' rule and knocked its ball off the opposing alliances overpass. It is an animation, and not the most accurate way to get rules. I think they just did that so to have all balls in play.

Personally I believe that there will be an amendment to the rules that you can only exceed the 6' plane in order to get your trackball.

As it is right now there are really only 2 ways that I can think of to get it off the over pass.

1) use the other track ball and launch you other track ball into the one on the opposing alliances overpass

2) some how stack 2 robots so that the top robot is able to knock you track ball off the opposing alliances overpass without expanding to a height of over 6' (this does not violate any of the rules, because all the rules dealing with either entanglment on climing onto another robot say it is not acceptable to do to robots on the opposing alliance)

these are just my thoughts, please post a correction if there is something wrong

Daniel_LaFleur 06-01-2008 22:17

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx34 (Post 670520)
Then it would seem necessary to build a mechanism capable of being very precise (or just program it to be more precise, most likely by having multiple speeds by pressing different buttons).

Yup. Precise and while in traffic :O

I think it's going to be fun watching teams try.

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:30

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 670547)
Yup. Precise and while in traffic :O

I think it's going to be fun watching teams try.

But the traffic shouldn't matter. If an opposing alliance robot causes your robot to incur a penalty; there will be no penalty called (<G23>).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinigami473 (Post 670538)
Another thing about this, is that in past years the refs discounted all points made out of penalties. So if you were to remove your ball from the opponents overpass, by either exceed the 6' rule or breaking the plane going clockwise, you could discount some if not all the points made by that ball.

One more thing that confuses me, is that in the game animation in hybrid mode the red forklift robot clearly exceeded the 6' rule and knocked its ball off the opposing alliances overpass. It is an animation, and not the most accurate way to get rules. I think they just did that so to have all balls in play.

Personally I believe that there will be an amendment to the rules that you can only exceed the 6' plane in order to get your trackball.

As it is right now there are really only 2 ways that I can think of to get it off the over pass.

1) use the other track ball and launch you other track ball into the one on the opposing alliances overpass

2) some how stack 2 robots so that the top robot is able to knock you track ball off the opposing alliances overpass without expanding to a height of over 6' (this does not violate any of the rules, because all the rules dealing with either entanglment on climing onto another robot say it is not acceptable to do to robots on the opposing alliance)

these are just my thoughts, please post a correction if there is something wrong


The first strategy seems legal though nigh-impossible to accomplish. The second is illegal as offensive or defensive ramping is illegal. (Rule <R19>) The idea of removing the ball from the quadrant opposite the opponent's home stretch across the opponent's finish line still stands as legal assuming you don't cross the plane of the finish line.

shinigami473 06-01-2008 22:41

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynx34 (Post 670570)
The first strategy seems legal though nigh-impossible to accomplish. The second is illegal as offensive or defensive ramping is illegal. (Rule <R19>) The idea of removing the ball from the quadrant opposite the opponent's home stretch across the opponent's finish line still stands as legal assuming you don't cross the plane of the finish line.

I did not mean that a robot was to use a ramp, I just ment that one robot would somehow (maybe magicly :D ) get onto another robot of the same alliance.

Could you start on another robot, as long as you are touching the back wall?

Lynx34 06-01-2008 22:50

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by shinigami473 (Post 670591)
I did not mean that a robot was to use a ramp, I just ment that one robot would somehow (maybe magicly :D ) get onto another robot of the same alliance.

Could you start on another robot, as long as you are touching the back wall?

Robots cannot touch other robots at the start of the match (<G15>)

I really don't see any other way that a robot could be placed on another robot without giving valuable resources (such as time and weight budget space) on a mechanism to pick up another robot. I don't think that that is a likely course of action. With all the noise this has stirred, I'm sure that a rule change will be made or at least a clarification made.

Blue_Mist 06-01-2008 23:27

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boiler (Post 669620)
Unfortunately, the wedge rule is back and very clear in <R19>: "Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed"

A part of the rule directly after that sentence reads: All parts of a ROBOT between 0 and 8.5 inches from the ground (the top of the BUMPER ZONE) that are used to push against or interact with an opposing ROBOT must be within 10 degrees of vertical...

So, since 2005, our robots have always had a 9 1/2 degree wedge, which is perfectly legal.

Wvoo369 06-01-2008 23:43

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.

If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you.

EricH 07-01-2008 00:00

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wvoo369 (Post 670676)
There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.

If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you.

I see only one point value for penalties (unless you count disable and DQ as point values.) It isn't 2 points. There is no distinction made between Hybrid and Teleoperated.

ALIBI 07-01-2008 07:20

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Maybe the GDC wrote these rules on purpose and they intend that the only way you can get your second trackball is when your opposing alliance removes your trackball to avoid the 12 points for being on the overpass at the end of the game.

Maybe my memory is faling, in the past, didn't we usually get the score from the game animation? Perhaps there were several things shown that penalties were given for? Don't assume that everything seen in the animation was legal. i.e. reaching over from one quad to another with a manipulator that is obviously over six feet above the opposing alliances home stretch to remove a trackball placed in the overpass. Perhaps the illustration was to say that even though the trackball was removed, it was still counted and the robot violated the height rule?

Ziaholic 07-01-2008 11:28

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Very good point. We cannot assume that everything in the animation is legal.

sloteera 07-01-2008 13:07

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff 888 (Post 669154)
the first ball is on your side and you can reach it but then the other ball you can not have your arm extended because the rack where the ball is sitting in the opponents home zone <G36> so how do you get that ball


We gonna try to reach the other ball on autonomous mode. The animation shows that in Hibrid Period you can get the ball with your bot above 6 feet...


PS: I hope that you can understand my english...:o

GaryVoshol 07-01-2008 13:34

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sloteera (Post 671181)
We gonna try to reach the other ball on autonomous mode. The animation shows that in Hibrid Period you can get the ball with your bot above 6 feet...


PS: I hope that you can understand my english...:o

We understand your English very well. However, just because you saw it in the animation, that doesn't make it legal. There have been mistakes in the animations in the past.

sloteera 07-01-2008 13:41

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 671200)
We understand your English very well. However, just because you saw it in the animation, that doesn't make it legal. There have been mistakes in the animations in the past.


So, independent of the match moment, our robot CAN'T stay above 6 feet?

Chuck Glick 07-01-2008 13:47

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sloteera (Post 671206)
So, independent of the match moment, our robot CAN'T stay above 6 feet?

You only MUST be under 6 feet in two instances, one being at the beginning of a match, and in the OPPOSING ALLIANCE HOMEZONE.

Example for these areas:


Nuttyman54 07-01-2008 14:55

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by [B
Wvoo369[/b]]There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.

If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 670695)
I see only one point value for penalties (unless you count disable and DQ as point values.) It isn't 2 points. There is no distinction made between Hybrid and Teleoperated.

I believe he's saying there's a NET loss of 2 points, (Gain 8 from knocking it down in Hybrid, loose 10 for being over 6'). However, since this would be an intentional and repeated infraction of the rules, it would be subject to DQ

AcesPease 07-01-2008 17:11

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 671288)
I believe he's saying there's a NET loss of 2 points, (Gain 8 from knocking it down in Hybrid, loose 10 for being over 6'). However, since this would be an intentional and repeated infraction of the rules, it would be subject to DQ

Whew!

When does the FIRST Q n A usually get going? I don't recall there being this much of a lag in the past. But then I don't remember being this lost on a rule after the first weekend either.

IbleedPink233 07-01-2008 17:18

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
This is very curious because in the animation, a robot very clearly reaches over 6ft to knock off their ball on the opponents' Overpass while within the opponents' home stretch. This was during Hybrid period.
Then, at the end of the game, a robot (maybe the same one) reached over from their lane to knock an opponent's ball off of the Overpass. By the way that we have been interpreting the rules (which is the good ol' literal methodology) both of these would incur penalties, but neither was even mentioned. There is some kind of discrepancy between the rules and the animation.
So I am fully convinced that the first manual update will clear everything up. If not, then I guess we'll just have to hope that our opponents will be gracious enough to knock our Trackballs down for us for the entire competition season :)

dlavery 07-01-2008 17:38

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 671200)
We understand your English very well. However, just because you saw it in the animation, that doesn't make it legal. There have been mistakes in the animations in the past.

I beg to differ. There have not been mistakes in the animations. There have been situations where, for a variety of reasons, the rules have been modified and/or updated between the time the animations were rendered and when the rules were publicized at Kick-Off. Those modifications may have made the animations and the rules appear inconsistent when they are viewed at a later date. But the animations have been consistent with the rules that were in effect at the time the animation was completed.

There is a difference.

[and before anyone asks "well does that mean that someone will explain the discrepancy between the animation and the current revision of the rules?" - for that information you will need to get an official determination from FIRST]



.

Kellen Hill 07-01-2008 17:47

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Just to let everybody know, <G36> has been deleted in the manual on FIRST's website.

Koko Ed 07-01-2008 17:59

Re: How do you get your other ball
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hill (Post 671527)
Just to let everybody know, <G36> has been deleted in the manual on FIRST's website.

and with that there is no reason for this thread to exist anymore.


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