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How do you get your other ball
the first ball is on your side and you can reach it but then the other ball you can not have your arm extended because the rack where the ball is sitting in the opponents home zone <G36> so how do you get that ball
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i think that may only refer to at the end of the game...im pretty sure you can knock it down anytime during the game
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I had the same though and posted this in a different thread, the robot in the game animation does it, are we not allowed to?
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I am predicting a rule change in this area.
A few other ways the ball could get down are: 1. Use your other ball to make contact and knock it down, 2. The other team will want to get it down so your team doesn't get the 12 point bonus at the end of the match for having your ball still up there. These are ways to get it down but I really think that they will change something. |
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yeah i think theres going to be several rule changes.
a lot of ideas r contradicting... |
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What if this isn't a mistake on the GDC's part? What if <G36> is intentionally worded? This could yield some very interesting game strategies.
1)Leaving the trackball up there could yield the alliance a 12-point endgame bonus. 2)The opposing alliance could accidentally knock down the trackball either by attempting a hurdle or by attempting to dislodge their own trackball 3)The opposing alliance could dislodge the ball during teleoperated period, giving zero removal points but secure in the notion that it would take seven trackball-laps to outscore the 12 point endgame bonus 4)Assuming the opposing alliance is going to be launching hurdle attempts with a ten-pound trackball, it may be in a team's best interest not to have an extended (and most likely unprotected) appendage near the overpass |
Re: How do you get your other ball
Well it says that a robot shall not be taller than 6', It never says that the robot can not be above the 6ft plane. Lets say the ground were higher, or... it was on a ramp-bot. Then the bot on top could be under 72" tall (NOT under 72" from the ground) and still have some room to play with. Now that's an interesting strategy, I think. That's also probably a strategy that nobody'll take (enough with ramps already) and would still get you penalized (for being a smarta -- yeah).
Especially since one of the dictionary definitions of height is "The distance from the bottom to the top of an object." Also, knocking off opponent's ball = they lose 12 points. Doing it in their home stretch, you lose 10. If the scores are even, that's a decent strategy. It'd win a match, that's for sure. |
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that would enable your team to also score on both overpasses during the endgame (unless you just score on your own side of the overpass...) |
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New Trackballs 'casue you popped the one in the KOP: $12. Thinking out strategies like a FIRSTer: Priceless. There's some things money CAN buy. For everything else, there's FIRST. |
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How about the flag? The flag must be placed so it is 75 inches from the ground. Last time I checked, that is taller than 6'. So that means your robot could never do a lap ...
I expect some clarifications on this rule. I will ask a question as soon as the Q & A is up. |
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Unfortunately, the wedge rule is back and very clear in <R19>: "Neither offensive nor defensive wedges are allowed"
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Re: How do you get your other ball
The arena is divided into four distinct areas, movement between areas is counterclockwise (G42). Once you are in an area, you should be able to move in any direction you want, just leave a passing lane. You could go back and knock the trackball down from the other side since you can not be over six feet tall while in opposing alliances home stretch (G36).
Boiler nailed it, if the trackball stays up for the entire match, it becomes 12 points. I would like to see a definition of "in" regarding rule G36. Do the boundaries of the home stretch extend to the ceiling? Meaning that if any part of your robot passes over the home stretch without touching the floor, would it be considered a violation? G22 talks about breaking the plane being a violation, rule G36 does not. |
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My thought:
The overpass is 78". The ball in the track of the overpass sits down approximately 8". This means you have to reach 70" to touch the ball. You are permitted to be 72". Those two inches need to be really important. I welcome any input... |
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You ONLY have to be under 6' in the opposing alliance HOMEZONES. Example below.
![]() If a team is on the BLUE ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the RED HOMEZONE. If a team is on the RED ALLIANCE, they can be above 6' everywhere except in the BLUE HOMEZONE. It is 100% legal to knock the ball BACKWARDS off of the OVERPASS(clockwise). So pass through the opposing HOMEZONE, pause, knock ball BACKWARDS, and go. |
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People are concerned that the track ball that is on the side opposite of theirs is impossible to retrieve without breaking rules. |
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EDIT: Original Drawing Updated. |
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I haven't done the math, but it seems to me that if the ball is sitting on the rail, and the rail is directly above the finish line then the ball should extend beyond the finish line ... thus you should be able to knock the ball off of the rails by striking the part that is beyond the opponents finish line without your robot being in their "home strech" or breaking the plane of the finish line.
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I am confused. Page 5 of 7 of THE ARENA. As the ROBOTS move in a counter-clockwise direction around TRACK, the quadrant of the TRACK immediately preceeding the the FINISH LINE for each alliance is known as the "HOME STRETCH" Wouldn't that mean that the finish line itself is not part of the home stretch? The home stretch is bounded by the finish line. Does that mean the finish line is part of the home stretch? Or does it mean that the leading edge of the finish line is the boundary? I tend to think that since the wording says the home strech is the quadrant of the track immediately preceeding the finish line, that the Home Stretch does not include the area above the finish line, but rather the area before the finish line. |
Re: How do you get your other ball
Just like the ball hangs down under the overpass, the ball also crosses over the plane of the homestretch. This makes it possible but difficult to knock that trackball off by turning around once you are out of the other teams homestretch.
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Re: How do you get your other ball
Is the hight limit in affect during Hybrid mode?
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Having the very outter edges of the ball, or i read in another thread that 2 inches of the ball will be below the 6ft mark, be the only area for contact to try to knock it down (its a pretty darn big/heavy ball) is very unreasonable.
My take on this is...the rule was worded so you have to knock the trackball down backwards and go all the way around before you can use it to score additonal points. and the rule was just worded poorly. (keep the scores closer, which is an obvious goal for this year because of no possible 60 point chunks at the very end of the match) Or, being ON your opponents finish line. According to the rules, you have broken the plane and technically out of the homestretch. (maybe this was designed to protect the rack the balls are sitting on, dont want high speed, potentially out of control robots flying around with over 6 feet of leverage. may not end good:] haha) Or pure strategy, which would be entirely annoying, though add a wonderful twist to the game. I think these are more realistic ideas than 2 inches lee-way trying to knock over 10pounds and 40 inches. plus, have fun refs judging those two inches. just my two cents :] |
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I think we reay need clarification on G36 and R16. the hight limit in the oponents home stretch. even the animation seemed to violate both rules as the red bot is obviosely much to hig for being in the blu home stretch. see animation video at 1min53sec or the attached picture of it. lets see the Q&A and team update. Team 451 - Jens |
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Re: How do you get your other ball
well some near guaranteed changes, or at the least, clarification of the rules should definitely be in the near future...hopefully
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Re: How do you get your other ball
I am pretty sure you'll be able to knock the trackball off of the rails from beyond the opponents finish line without crossing it, since it will hang over the line.
The difficulty will be ensuring you are beyond the line before attempting it, being lined up enough, and being able to apply enough force to the Trackball |
Re: How do you get your other ball
you could get the ball while not beeing in the opposing side's home strech zone.
You cross their finish line, go back dropping the ball/grabbing it and there you have it. This might be intentional by the GDC, not a mistake like many of us hurried to asume. The mistake though, is in the Game Animation, which means that Lavery is still messing with our heads! |
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The finish line is directly under the 2nd bar. As long as whatever you hit the trackball with is vertical and is outside the bar, then you have not broken the plane. The ball will overhang the bar and thus can be hit and knocked off the rails without penalty. |
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I have a concern about this situation as well.
The animation did show a robot knocking the ball off the far side, from its OWN side of the field, by reaching over the center line. (I can't believe that this is what they intended :ahh: .) I hope they change the rule to allow violations of the 6 foot rule in Hybrid mode. |
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We noticed the the equation above used numbers assuming the ball was on center with the pipes. this is not true seeing that the ball rests on the top of the pipes. We found the hang to be (assuming the the 6.5' overpass is on center with the pipes) it would hang only 1.5 inches below the 6' legal limit. If the 6.5' is at the bottom of the pipes it would hang only .67 inches from the 6' limit. this is assuming the the ball in of 40" diameter. here is the diagram: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...6&d=1199655203 |
Re: How do you get your other ball
The animation showed the opposing alliance knocking off the opponents track ball at the end of the match from the other lane. Could you do the same at the beginning of the match to your track ball?
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Re: How do you get your other ball
Suppose you clear the finish line then raise something to contact the part of the ball that overhangs the overpass. If this appendage of the robot contacts the pipe supporting the ball, have you broken the plane? Would this be a violation of <G22> even if the robot base is not moving in a clockwise direction? Lot's of stuff for FIRST Q&A to address on this topic...
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NOTE: On the same topic, CD answers are NOT official rulings. We can offer our interpretations of the rules, we can point you to the appropriate rule, and we can send you to the Q&A for the answer. More than that we cannot do. |
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I have a question.. In other past games any game piece in possession of your robot was considered part of your robot, is it the same for this year? And if not then we are technically able to carry the trackball and use it to knock off our other trackball off the opponents overpass ?
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assuming it leaves contact with your robot. |
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Well we have been thinking about it all day and that is the best idea we have for it now, besides going on the other side and pulling it off as we still move, but hopefully they will be making an update on that rule, but I spotted it in other places in the rules also, in the section talking about the opponents home stretch , so that kind of makes me think its set in stone that way . |
Re: How do you get your other ball
As far as we have seen, there is nothing to stop a robot from using a trackball to dislodge another trackball, as long as your height does not reach above 6 feet in the opposing alliance's home stretch, and as long as your robot does not cross into the zone if attempting to dislodge from the other quadrant. (Great job with the math GBIT! We came to the same answer!)
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thanks but i can't take most of the credit but i mainly posted it, i only helped a little. |
Re: How do you get your other ball
this is deffinatly going to have to be elaborated on ... i spent 2 hours at lunch with my team and we all had the same question bout the 6 foot rule
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As the rules currently read, I really don't see any problem with going 3/4 the way around the track (passing your finish line, the 1st lane marker, and the opponent's finish line, but NOT the 2nd lane marker) turning around and knocking your second ball off the overpass.
The rules currently say that it is LEGAL to move clockwise as long as you don't break the plane of any of the 4 dividing lines (<G22>) AND you leave enough room for other robots to pass (<G40>). So, it should be legal to turn around after passing the opponent's finish line, and knocking the ball off WITHOUT any part of the robot crossing the plane of the opponent's finish line. Other than that, I don't see any way that a robot can legally remove the 2nd ball; and yes, the forklift-bot in the animation did break <g36>, as the rules currently read. |
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Another thing about this, is that in past years the refs discounted all points made out of penalties. So if you were to remove your ball from the opponents overpass, by either exceed the 6' rule or breaking the plane going clockwise, you could discount some if not all the points made by that ball.
One more thing that confuses me, is that in the game animation in hybrid mode the red forklift robot clearly exceeded the 6' rule and knocked its ball off the opposing alliances overpass. It is an animation, and not the most accurate way to get rules. I think they just did that so to have all balls in play. Personally I believe that there will be an amendment to the rules that you can only exceed the 6' plane in order to get your trackball. As it is right now there are really only 2 ways that I can think of to get it off the over pass. 1) use the other track ball and launch you other track ball into the one on the opposing alliances overpass 2) some how stack 2 robots so that the top robot is able to knock you track ball off the opposing alliances overpass without expanding to a height of over 6' (this does not violate any of the rules, because all the rules dealing with either entanglment on climing onto another robot say it is not acceptable to do to robots on the opposing alliance) these are just my thoughts, please post a correction if there is something wrong |
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I think it's going to be fun watching teams try. |
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The first strategy seems legal though nigh-impossible to accomplish. The second is illegal as offensive or defensive ramping is illegal. (Rule <R19>) The idea of removing the ball from the quadrant opposite the opponent's home stretch across the opponent's finish line still stands as legal assuming you don't cross the plane of the finish line. |
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Could you start on another robot, as long as you are touching the back wall? |
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I really don't see any other way that a robot could be placed on another robot without giving valuable resources (such as time and weight budget space) on a mechanism to pick up another robot. I don't think that that is a likely course of action. With all the noise this has stirred, I'm sure that a rule change will be made or at least a clarification made. |
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So, since 2005, our robots have always had a 9 1/2 degree wedge, which is perfectly legal. |
Re: How do you get your other ball
There is another strategy a team can you to knock off the trackball on the opposing side. In the Hybrid mode you only receive a penalty of two points when going above the 6' zone. This would allow you to use that trackball in the telioperated period rather then having to knock it down in the telioperated period and potentially losing 10 points or more.
If I have misread the rules please clarify for me. Thank you. |
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Maybe the GDC wrote these rules on purpose and they intend that the only way you can get your second trackball is when your opposing alliance removes your trackball to avoid the 12 points for being on the overpass at the end of the game.
Maybe my memory is faling, in the past, didn't we usually get the score from the game animation? Perhaps there were several things shown that penalties were given for? Don't assume that everything seen in the animation was legal. i.e. reaching over from one quad to another with a manipulator that is obviously over six feet above the opposing alliances home stretch to remove a trackball placed in the overpass. Perhaps the illustration was to say that even though the trackball was removed, it was still counted and the robot violated the height rule? |
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Very good point. We cannot assume that everything in the animation is legal.
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We gonna try to reach the other ball on autonomous mode. The animation shows that in Hibrid Period you can get the ball with your bot above 6 feet... PS: I hope that you can understand my english...:o |
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So, independent of the match moment, our robot CAN'T stay above 6 feet? |
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Example for these areas: ![]() |
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When does the FIRST Q n A usually get going? I don't recall there being this much of a lag in the past. But then I don't remember being this lost on a rule after the first weekend either. |
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This is very curious because in the animation, a robot very clearly reaches over 6ft to knock off their ball on the opponents' Overpass while within the opponents' home stretch. This was during Hybrid period.
Then, at the end of the game, a robot (maybe the same one) reached over from their lane to knock an opponent's ball off of the Overpass. By the way that we have been interpreting the rules (which is the good ol' literal methodology) both of these would incur penalties, but neither was even mentioned. There is some kind of discrepancy between the rules and the animation. So I am fully convinced that the first manual update will clear everything up. If not, then I guess we'll just have to hope that our opponents will be gracious enough to knock our Trackballs down for us for the entire competition season :) |
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There is a difference. [and before anyone asks "well does that mean that someone will explain the discrepancy between the animation and the current revision of the rules?" - for that information you will need to get an official determination from FIRST] . |
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Just to let everybody know, <G36> has been deleted in the manual on FIRST's website.
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