Possible Problem!?
 

While looking for some cool remotes to possible purchase myself, and my other fellow mentors(Arber and Peter) came across this little nifty device.

TV-B-Gone
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/ele...e/?cpg=froogle



Even worse some have been modified to shut many devices off at the same time:
If you absolutely positively must kill every TV in the room within 90 feet
http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/06/30/sup...up_to_90f.html



The question then arises, should we be concerned of such gadgets?

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I doubt that this would be a problem, the reason is that when using your "device" according to the rules you need a 3 x 5 index card i believe. that describes each action that the robot will take when each button is pushed, and i doubt the refs would see the card say "disable all remote devices within 90ft" and let people get away with it lol

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

good one. lol

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

It is no more of a problem than if audience members decide to try and interfere by bringing remote controls from home and pointing them at the field during hybrid mode. The signals those devices send aren't particularly more or less detrimental - they are simply setup to send out the most common "off" IR signals for TV-type devices.

Really, whether its this, or just extraneous IR remote controls, there's always potential for trouble, but it really comes down to GP. Hopefully morals are as high as ever in FIRST and teams don't stoop to something this low to try and get an edge in a game meant to be fun and educational.

- Jeff

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I'm with Jeff. What happened to GP? Are teams really going to bring IR interference just so they can win a match? Remember, FIRST isn't about winning your competition, it's about the process that got your team there.

The competition is nothing more than the celebration of the fact that after a long, arduous 6 weeks you build a working robot! The rest is just icing on the cake.

No need to sabotage everyone else, especially if you've made it that far.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

realistically, what a ninja remote does is send the "Off" signal frequency of all manufacturers out there. A ninja remote doesn't spam every IR frequency, or else it would, in theory, do more than just power down the tv, but change the volume and the channel and the video mode, and whatever other thing it could do. It would also turn on and off your VCR, etc. That's clearly not what it does, however.

So teams, whatever you do, do not use the "OFF" button on a remote control as one of your 4 inputs, because then a ninja remote might actually do something.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

One might want to avoid using the power button on one's remote, just to be on the safe side. That way at least such a device could only flood your IR receiver and not trigger an action.

That said, I would hope we can rely on gracious professionalism to avoid such a problem. Besides, I wouldn't want to be discovered with such a device in a stadium filled with FIRST members that would all want to kill me... in a graciously professional way, of course ;)

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

lol ive seen these on www.hvwtech.com
never thought of that though, someone in audience could pull a prank though!?

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I have no idea how they're possibly going to control the IR when there are possibly 6 different sources flying around. Sounds like a nightmare.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I saw IR as a great idea, until I found out that they were using an IR Lap Counter. Too much IR for such an open space.

Tomasz Bania

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

It seems they went to a lot of trouble to show how a team can place a tube in front of a sensor to negate the possibility of interference from other remotes/ambient light. Besides (and correct me if I'm wrong) the code triggered by an IR input most likely wouldn't get interrupted by another IR signal (i.e. in Mr. Lavery's example, "go check out that rock AND THEN come back to me and await the next command"). Ninja/Pirate remotes shouldn't be a concern to a thoughtful team.

My concern (and someone well-versed in IR frequency may very well dispute this) is that a robot may get "confused" or receive the wrong signal from the other robocoach on the alliance. What are the chances that two robocoaches would use remotes that operate on the same frequency?

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

i completely agree, in my opinion IR should only be used for TV and for good ol' LEGO RIS

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I can see it now. Walmart has a sale on a universal remote.
"Hey let's buy this one" says every FIRST team around.
"Well, lets do 1, 2, 3, and 4 for our input" they say.
I can guarantee this will happen to some degree.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

arber here, as I am saw this I don't think anyone would use the power button but what i noticed during the kick off was that multiple IR signals would confuse the chip.
My question is: How safe is a confused chip?

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I'm less worried about items like this than I am about IR illuminators such as:

Or for that matter a simple IR LED attached to an appropriate power source, and focused slightly. Simple, small, and nearly undetectable unless some one was looking for it.

While interference of other IR signals are an issue, there is real danger in the "Wash-out" effect of a constant on IR source. It would effectively override any and all IR signals within the viewing angle of the IR receiver.

Having used IR in many personal and professional projects in the past, this was one of the first issues that occurred to me.

-S


After re-reading some of the posts here there may be some confusion on how IR and irDA acctually work (ie, refering to frequency etc). Some helpful info can be found in that wonderful repository, WikiPedia at this Link

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

Well if people are devious enough to try to pull something like this off at a FIRST competition they shouldn't be part of FIRST to begin with. It's like blatantly building ramp bots to flip people over.

That's why so much of the kickoff has been emphasizing GP and the main goals of FIRST.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

I completely agree with that. I mainly wanted to illustrate the shortcomings of IR as a control interface.

That, and while everyone involved with FIRST should be concentrating on GP, it doesn't preclude outside pranksters from being devious. (Though, this is likely far fetched, as someone with the knowledge to do this, wouldn't likely use it for evil! :) )

-S

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

To some degree though GP is killed with FIRST. If you scream fire for hours on end than eventually people tune out the fire. I don't mind an introduction by one of the guys (preferably Woody) and than a "reminder" type deal at the end by someone, but fitting GP into every sentence and every topic is getting irritating to the point where I wanted to mute the kickoff feed because it was so redundant.

People who participate in FIRST are generally "better" people who just think like this because we are bored but don't really act upon these random ideas that we get. (We because the community as a whole has ideas that are better left out of the first playing field.) But point being, they need to cut down on the GP in speeches or they need to use a thesaurus or something so people don't fall asleep assuming everyone is reiterating the same thing...

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

Eep.
http://www.instructables.com/id/TV-Remote-Jammer!/
http://www.electronics-lab.com/proje...tor_light/031/
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/r...mer-173057.php

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

This was not something thought of as something to be done to gain an advantage. We are only taking a look at all possible things that can happen.
I am all for GP ( although being constantly reminded arouses the feeling to press the mute button ) but if you payed attention to the HW spreading first to other people besides team members is one of its objectives and trust me people allways think that pranks are funny.

If ninja/pirate remote is used we will know someone is doing it because there are projectors and TVs everywhere so we will know the perpetrators.

So I am not trying to offend anyone but please hold the GP comments and how someone should not belong there and actually try to see if there might be a KISS solution so a simple problem because safety why is also big in first and when robots start to "bug out" people might get hurt.

PS
the tube solution wont really work when your trying to send information to your robot as its moving away from you or towards.

Re: Possible Problem!?
 

Should be fine, but it may be a gamble. There may well be audience members with those. :)

If you still want one, but want to learn basic electronics, then i recommend this one from ladyada.

http://www.adafruit.com/index.php?ma...e16d31fd423f94