Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

If your "powerful bot" can be neutralized by a "half-done box bot" then I put forth that your bot isn't all that powerful.

More likely, the fact is your team did not take into account defensive strategies ... so now you are crying foul.

1> High speed ramming is against the rules
2> Strategies designed to damage other bots or the field will get you DQ'd
3> Most defensive bots I've encountered are built stronger than their offensive counterparts because they 'expect' contact.

Have fun with your strategy. I'll be there to assist the other guy putting his robot back together while your team goes home after being DQ'd

Please show me your evidence that defensive bots are weak KoP bots.

Please show me your evidence that pinning was not the intent of the game creators. My guess is that they knew some teams would try this strategy and a few would actually get good at it.

If you try to destroy others robots and encourage others to do the same ... don't be surprised when it happens to you.

Have fun at the nationals ;)

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I'm hearing yet another echo.:D
I think the concensus is that if you can be stopped by a defensive bot then it is your problem to deal with, not complain about. ( or at least not ours.)

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I'm curious how you suggest teams take into account for defensive strategies. If a ball is pinned against a wall, what can a team do besides ignore it and do laps? My point is that any offensive bot can be neutralized by this technique.

If a ball is pinned against a wall there is nothing even the best bot can do about it. That is the biggest thing that separates pinning from previous defensive strategies. In previous years, a defensive bot had to be robust and have a solid drive train. This year, the rules protect a pinning bot from contact so a cardboard box with wheels could effectively carry out this "strategy".
Yes, and a single hurdle + lap will eliminate that penalty.
If they are built so robustly then they have nothing to worry about. I don't intend to damage the robot. I simply wish to dislodge the ball. If the robot gets damaged, then so be it. A yellow card is just a warning, and it also disappears once the finals start.

Ok, maybe not KOP bots, but many people are suggesting that defense be used by defective/half-finished bots.

135 degree angles on the walls. A right angle would be much more easily manufactured, but the GDC still chose to use 135 angles (which make it more difficult to pin). If you also look at the other rules, they discourage defensive play this year. I'm pretty sure the GDC doesn't want four bots to park themselves in the corners pinning balls while the other two remaining bots run laps. That leads to very dry gameplay.

I don't encourage the destruction of other robots, I'm simply suggesting a way to prevent a loophole from ruining this years game. And as you've previously stated, defensive bots are built strong, so they should have no problem holding up to our attempts to bring the track ball back in to play. ;)

See you at nationals!

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I think you're forgetting the diversity that occurs every year.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Very simple, push them out of the way. There is nothing to prevent bumper to bumper contact. If we had chosen to use our drive train from last year we could have pushed any of the defensive bots out of the way, very easily. We could even have pushed other bots sideways in some cases. Also, you could simply not let them pin in the first place. Part of the game this year, I would almost say the most important part, is ball control. You must be able to pick up quickly and reliably and a team that does this can make it so another team never has the chance to play defense in the first place.

Finally, I direct you to the eliminations at GLR. There you can see a very fine showing of counter-defense between us (910) and the Thunderchickens. Above all else teamwork can prevent defense from shutting you down.

Also the 135 degree walls are likely there to give the track a somewhat oval appearance, to simulate a race track. Not for any specific anti defense reason.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Alex, I'll be honest with you, I think that your argument is baseless. Defense is a valid strategy, and as an offensive robot, you must play through it or lose. Also, if defense-oriented robots were so weak and flimsy, you should have no trouble dealing with them unless your robot is similarly weak or flimsy; all you have to do is push them out of the way. In addition, a strategy that has severely damaging or destroying opposing robots as one of its main goals has no place in this game, and I would hope the refs would DQ any team trying such a foul strategy. A side note, calling other robots "half-finished" or "defective" is just bad manners, and is very rude.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Who said anything about running laps. Our bot, in low gear, drives @ 5' per second and has 175+ LB pushing force. Very few "half-done box bots" won't be pushed by us. And we don't need to ram.

Design for defense ... because it will happen once you prove yourself a scoring threat.


Planning on high speed ramming will get you DQ'd under <G37>

This is the most un-GP statement I've ever seen, and shows that you are far more interested in winning than in doing what is right.

135 degree wall sections proves nothing other than it's different from years ago ... not that the GDC did not want or expect pinning of the trackballs. At best it's your estimation of what the GDC wanted. And your opinion is biased because your "powerful bot" was unable to compensate for this "simplistic" defense (in fairness, my opinion is probably just as biased even though we built a lap bot this year).

Also think that your arm / gripper / manipulator very well could be outside the bumperzone and any interaction with that will give you another 10 point penalty and may get you disabled / Yellow carded / DQ'd.

Again, have fun with your strategy at the championships.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I gotta say, it seems like we are going in circles with this one. I'm gonna run out ways to reword what I've already said.:ahh:

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Then why didn't they simply outlaw it? Reduce <> prohibit.
So to counteract a strategy that is not prohibited in the rules, you will employ a strategy that deliberately breaks the rules. And you're questioning the other team's GP?

But a second yellow card results in a DQ. And each and every one after that results in a DQ. You won't be racking up many wins in qualifying matches that way. And who would choose a robot in an alliance that might get the whole alliance DQ'd in the eliminations?
And it would be easier to hurdle if the overpass was only 4.5 feet tall, not 6.5. I guess that means the GDC didn't intend us to hurdle, else they wouldn't have made it so difficult.
Some kinds of defense are outlawed. How do you jump to the conclusion that this discourages all defense?
If they had not wanted that, why didn't they say so in the rules? There's been no Team Updates since Week 2. Don't you think they would have changed the rule if that's what they really wanted?

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Geez, has our discussion really regressed to personal attacks? I care little for how you interpret my arguments.
You're sending mixed messages. At first you say that offensive bots should have no problem dealing with defense bots if they are weak. Then immediately after that you condemn damaging opposing robots. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you propose offensive bots do.

I'll clarify my previous statement. The goal of my strategy is to simply dislodge the ball. The last thing I want to do is to destroy another teams robot. Herodotus suggested pushing, and I agree with him. This will allow competitive bots with a good drive train to move the pinning bot. Yes, my suggestion for high speed ramming may have been blunt. Pushing is a more reasonable solution.

I'm only using words that were used by supporters of pinning in the past few pages. Is it really rude if I haven't actually named any robots? Please consider your own personal attacks when you wish to point fingers about being rude.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I really don't like the way this thread is going,
how about we have some hot chocolate and heatedly discuss, rather than argue, about it eh?

Really, words do not peirce hearts, people do. So no, it is only the usage and implications of said usage that render words poisonous.

-Jesus

Edit. Or Lemonade.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Yes, lemonade would probably be a better idea right now!:cool:

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Lemonaid sounds real good :D

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

Alex, I apologize, I did not mean to attack you, just your argument. On a second reading, I see how easily that difference is missed, and so have modified the line.

Now, lacking lemonade, I'll go play some guitar.

Re: Defensive Strategy - cornering opponents ball
 

I can only play real guitar so-so, so onward to Rock Band.:cool: