A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Let's suppose that there is a match in progress. A robot is attempting a hurdle when--BAM!--it falls over. Sideways. Now this robot is about 7' high and it lands across the track. The track is 13' wide, roughly, so the robot takes up half of it.

The point I am trying to make here is that one robot on its side will block a large portion of the track and create a traffic jam. The object of the game is to score lots of points. Having ANY robot across the track will slow that object significantly.

If you see a robot start to tip, please get under them and keep them upright. If they go over, please pick them up. This isn't NASCAR; we don't have "tow robots" to clear the way. We just have five other robots that are trying to score.

Remember, a tipped robot is your enemy, regardless of alliance. A driving robot is your friend, regardless of alliance.

(Oh, yeah, and if you tip, please compress as much as possible.)

Re: A strategy note
 

If it also happens early in the match, we don't get yellow flags to stop and move out of the way.

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True--we just have driver alertness--hopefully.

BTW, my dad is the one who told me about this.

Re: A strategy note
 

To play devil's advocate, if I'm on the opposing alliance, that's one less robot I now have to worry about scoring points and moving their ball around.

The tipped over robot is blocking traffic for everyone, but scoring less for only their alliance. Why would I want to pick them up?

Re: A strategy note
 

Not even your alliance. If you are winning, and all lanes are shut than it would be beneficial for you to keep that "jam" as long as possible. Strategically the jam would be in your best interest.

Pavan.

Re: A strategy note
 

Everyone scores less because it blocks so much of the field. If they're already in the lead... If they have a trackball in grasp, it's even worse (up to 100% of the track blocked until somebody clears part of it.)

Think of it this way: there's an accident on an interstate that takes up two lanes. (Some have six each direction in SoCal.) EVERY lane comes to a halt/slow crawl as everyone merges into the remaining lanes. Once you're clear/the accident is removed, traffic speeds up.

Re: A strategy note
 

And if the situation is reversed? The other alliance is in the lead?

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I would of thought of that after some time, like next week. But yeah, I would rather have a robot down that can hurdle than have more space to move around. I mean if you are a good hurdler then you want one of their hurdlers not to do good. You would really like it not to be from them tipping over, but when your in a match you don't really care how you win. You would really like the opposing alliance to have a high score, but a wins a win.

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I understand how traffic would slow down. The point is that it would slow down for everyone. While it may put everyone at a disadvantage, it does not do your alliance ay more harm than the other.

If anything, it gives you an advantage because now you are earning 2 more points per lap and you have more robots moving the ball around.
Even better is if their robot tips over in their home stretch. Now, if one of their teams stops and tries to put the ball on the overpass, he is likely going to be impeding traffic. Therefore I can bump him and he must get out of my way, i.e. he won't be able to put the ball up.

I see an opposing tipped robot as a rather big advantage.

On a somewhat related note, would it be considered GP to push a tipped robot in front of the opposing alliances overpass? It would certainly give you the advantage I mentioned above, but what's to keep that robot from getting pushed around all match as teams try to position it on the field?

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The rules have been (I'm not sure about this year) if a robot is tipped, all "out of bumper zone" contact is ignored. That way someone can just move their robot out of the way.

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This is all if one robot tips over, but what if two robots of tip over and block the entire lane for everyone. this is very unlikely to happen but still a possibility.

Personally I was kind of disappointed with the rules this year, they could have been better.

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No. If it were, I'd push it in front of YOUR overpass and then get behind it so you can't move it. Now who gets in trouble?

I saw a case where a tipped robot was pushed in front of a ball corral (2004). A penalty was assessed. (The robot was intentionally tipped, but it took the second tip--so it couldn't get up--and the shoving into the chute to draw the penalty.)

Re: A strategy note
 

Or set them on their wheels.

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What makes this game interesting is there exists sort of a status quo that is constantly mantained. Everyone will likely proceed around the track at the same rate, as I believe any breakaways that do occur will either hit the pelaton again (which they won't be able to pass through) or hit some other traffic obstruction.

So, lets say the other alliance is in the lead, but you so happen to have a robot about to hurdle. So they hurdle, and now you are in the lead. It is still in your advantage to have the robot down. Or if you are ahead, most of the time it will be in your advantage for traffic to be slower (of course, there are exceptions, but this situation is on a case by case basis).

So, picking the other robot up, or moving them out of the way is a strategic decision.

I don't agree with this. If it is in my estimation a strategic advantage to slow the scoring down with a tipped robot, I will not move them out of the way. I will let them lie where they are.

I would say, a tipped robot, regardless of alliance, will slow down scoring. Whether or not this is a bad thing is highly situation.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

I pity the repair job and the manipulator that is blocking the track. 25 Feet Per Second has Gotta Hurt!

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Thank you for volunteering to write the rules next year. I am sure that you will do a much better job.

-dave

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

To add insult to injury, there's probably a penalty for being over 80".

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Even if you think it benefits your alliance because you're blocking the other one... Eric is right. Not only do you reduce the chances of your alliance scoring, but you also run the risk of getting your robot destroyed.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

To make it simple. Make a sturdy robot so it doesn't tip. :)

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

I think that discussing whether a tipped robot can be an advantage/disadvantage for alliances is probably not in the overall spirit of FIRST. It lets people think about the strategy of possibly tipping a robot which is DEFINITELY not in the spirit of FIRST.

In the past, referees generally do allow a robot to be moved out of the way if it has been tipped over. However, before you move another team's robot, imagine if your robot was the one being pushed around after falling over. It probably would not feel very good to see your 6 weeks of hard work being smeared on the carpet just because another team wanted to win THAT badly.

So try to remember that even though you might not have the capability to help another robot up, you should do your best to try to avoid tipped robots (nobody wants their hard work being tossed around).

-my $0.02

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Much like the 72" rule in 2007, I fully expect that if you tip over when you're over 80" tall, you'll be flagged. I also expect that this will be a huge deal at early regionals... scores will be low, and tipped robots will be numerous.

Re: A strategy note
 

Ooh, can I volunteer too? I'd love to be on the GDC.

(Yes, I know this was a sarcastic response to an insulting comment, but in seriousness, I do think it would be awesome to be a part of the GDC.)


As for the question at hand, I have seen a few past competitions where one robot has tipped and then another (both alliance and opponent) have picked up the tipped robot. I've also seen times when one robot tried to pick up a tipped robot, and ended up failing - either tipping themselves or getting tangled - and this is certainly more common.

For the most part, robots are not designed to pick up other robots, and so attempting to do so will take a lot of time and not succeed. If it is an alliance member which is tipped, then the coaches on that alliance need to make a decision about what to do - push the robot out of the way, attempt to pick it upright, or leave it as-is. If it is an opponent which is tipped, then, in my opinion, the gracious thing to do is to help them, if possible. It is certainly not gracious to "beet them while they're down". It is a very tough call, however, to determine "will my actions attempting to help this other robot be more likely to help them or to damage them?" The safe thing to do, from the perspective of not damaging the other robot, and to avoid the possibility of getting penalties, is probably to ignore them. I would expect "ignoring" and "gently pushing out of the way - aligning them with the flow of traffic" to be the two most common, and probably best, solutions.

As for the likelihood of robots tipping - there certainly will be some that tip, as there are every year. Compare this to the 2005 game, Triple Play. This year we are picking up an 8-10 pound ball roughly 8 feet (putting the center of the 40" ball at 8'2" puts the bottom at 6'6", the height of the overpass). In 2005, the tetras weight around 15 pounds and were lifted 12-14 feet. That's more weight at a higher elevation. How often did the 2005 robots tip? Certainly they tipped over some, but not THAT often.

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This isn't meant as a nitpick, but more to offer some perspective. Tetras weighed eight pounds each, not fifteen. Add in the fact that teams will be moving a lot faster because precision is not as important now as in 2005, and I expect that you'll see even more tipped bots than we did then.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Tipped robots are annoying to everyone, although they may or may not benefit your alliance.

BUT... Unless you are in an elimination match, or a REALLY REALLY intense/close match that you are completely set on trying to win as though it was the finals, if you have the ability to pick up another robot, I would do it.
For starters - more scoring will happen afterwards
- it is a really nice thing to do
- the team will be happy that you saved their robot, 6 weeks of work, from possible destruction, and you will probably make new friends :) always good to have lots of fun
- what teams out there, scouting around, could possibly overlook a team that helped another team up? It means you aren't in it just for the win, but for the experience. It means you're probably a fun team to work with. It means your robot is pretty awesome, because it has the ability to right an 120lb tipped robot.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Finally, an advantage to the walking robot.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

On the other hand, if somebody tried to pick up my robot without asking permission and managed to damage it more in the process, I would expect them to be DQed pursuant to <G37c>. I appreciate the thought and the opportunity to rejoin the match, but you have to expect to catch flak if something goes wrong.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

Honestly reading this post kind of makes me mad not only should you not try to tip a robot because it slows the game but I have a couple of other points

-Rule G42 States basically ramming a hurdling bot is a penalty
-Gracious Proffesionalism??:confused:
-and in my opinion one bot falling over there is still 2 others trying to get 2 balls around and 3 on the opposite alliance who can always accidently push the other alliance's balls around

Please tell me that GP is still in FIRST

Tipped robots
 

Here's my take on it:

Dean's homework this year is to draw more public attention to FIRST through the media. With (hopefully) more public awareness, more average non-FIRSTers will be coming into competitions and checking us out. I think that even attempting to right a tipped robot will show what this program is really after.

FIRST was not created to be something where all you care about was winning. It's the attractive part, but it isn't necessarily the important part. The important part is to learn skills that we will need or want to use in the future. It is to give us insight on our own capabilities. Personally, when I see a tipped robot successfully put upright, it makes me happy and proud to belong to my team and to FIRST. I won't remember who won or lost that match, but I will remember who fell and who helped pick them back up.

I also do not think a game in which the whole field is blocked would be appealing to the audience. It slows down the game, and makes it a little boring.

A few years from now when you are applying for college or a job, and you mention FIRST, would you rather say you won the Championship and a lot of regionals? Or would you rather say that you gained more experience from this program than anything else and you learned things that are not taught in a classroom? I'm for the latter.

That's just how I see it.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

So if a tipped robot blocks all passage, and an opponent bumps them gently to pass, does the tipped bot get penalized for failing to yield within six seconds?

Talk about adding insult to injury....

P.S. I do not believe the refs would ever call it this way. The wording of the rules <G38>, <G40>, and <G41> *almost* makes the above situation plausible, though.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

I'll just say to everybody who says "I'll leave them there" one simple thing:

Gracious Professionalism.

Learn it. Love it. Live it. Also remember... Foe one match, Friend another. Helping somebody out might just help you out in the long run, and even if it doesn't, this is FIRST, so we're all winners anyways.

So just help out a fellow FIRSTer if you see 'em tipped.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

The 72" rule was called when you were tipped last year. The offsides rule was called even if you were tipped in 2006. I fully expect that a robot that falls down and blocks off the lane will potentially be flagged for both the 80" rule and the impeding traffic rule, unless there is an update that said something to the contrary. But yes, insult to injury.
I still can't help but think that we'd all be more than a little upset if a well-meaning opponent gutted our pneumatics or wiring by sticking their gripper into our robot. It may seem like the graciously professional thing to do, but manipulating a robot that you are not familiar with is potentially very dangerous, and I wouldn't hesitate to flag a team that caused damage by doing so.

Re: A strategy note: Tipped robots
 

In 2006, if you hit the E-Stop button before you were considered off-sides, you would not have been given a penalty and your alliance would not have been required to have a backbot.

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I literally just lol'd. Personally, I like this game because it's "all up in our (collective) grill" in terms of departure from what we've come to expect. But that's off topic.

Fortunately, I think one of the popular design options will have a ball scooping mechanism or a fork-lift type thing that just might be powerful enough to get a robot upright.