why I don't like this year's game
 

ok this is sort of a griping forum (read if you want- but if you are going to be insulted, please don't read further) for a variety of reasons this game can go wrong.
1. the "no defense" rule: how are you supposed to stop an opponent from scoring??? you let them?! i don't think so! this is going to be such a high scoring game! you think the judges wasted alot of time making decisions last year?! just wait.
2:you cannot lift your boom above 6 feet in the opponents area... how are you supposed to knock sown opponents balls at the end?! you might as well not bother trying to knock them off cuz you'll get penalized!!!!!
3: counterclockwise?? one direction?? what is this nonsense?! what happened to strategy?! they don't let us do anything now. its like communism we have to conform or die!! our drivers are gonna get dizzy just thinkin about it!!

"the game is only half stupid not fully stupid"

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Remember: bumping and extension-extension contact are allowed, and if you can't figure out how to play defense now, you're not thinking hard enough. Besides, this is supposed to be an offensive game. Last year was very, very low scoring, in my opinion.

Psst... FIRST update...

Umm... are you being sarcastic? Either way, this is supposed to be, essentially, a race. The whole point is to do laps, in one direction. If robots were going in the opposite direction, this year would be even lower scoring than last year, it'd ruin the whole flow of the game, and there'd be too many collisions to boot.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

1: How about descoring from the overpass, how about herding/bulldozing opponents trackballs, it is a long ways around the track if a trackball goes into the quad behind you or in front of you

2: No longer applies, see update #1

3: It is only counter-clockwise quad to quad for the robots, not the trackballs, nor for the robots within a quad

So, don't be too down on this years game, look more for the things/strategies you can do instead of the ones you can not.

Good Luck!

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

A good defensive strategy might be playing "keep-away" with your opponent's trackballs, especially against alliances with good hurdlers. Per <G29>, herding an opponent's trackball is allowed.

Limited driving in the opposite direction will occur (gathering trackballs, getting away from walls and corners), so don't design a robot that only drives straught and turns left!!

This will be a great game...

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

The removal of <G36> from consideration means that there are now some additional options available for defense.

It may now be a viable strategy to remain just beyond your opponent's finish line and erect a backboard that prevents them getting their trackball to the other side of the overpass. If the rest of the track remains clear, the alliance can't justify "bumping to pass" and will be forced to maneuver around to score in a different location. A swerve drive on your machine means you could sweep back and forth and be very, very effective and preventing much scoring from taking place.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Hey Copperhead-

Remember its a game. The rules people come up with something to challenge us, make our brains hurt, get us to work together as alliances, and we figure out how to play. Take up the challenge. Use your creativity to think up something that will make the game exciting for your team and your alliance.

Of course there's things that make the game odd. We might have ideas on how to make it better or more spectator-friendly. Post away, maybe the GDC can use some of 'em. But to just complain about it isn't fun.

I think this is a pretty interesting change from past game concepts. Who knows, maybe it'll be half-boring. But I'm looking forward to seeing some lap times. And I'm not talkin' about Daytona in February...

Ken

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I could not agree with copperhead more.

A "passing bump" give me a break! We should reuqire the drivers to wear monicals and tap one another on the should and say,
Driver1- Pardon me chap but may I pass by you?
Driver2 - No pardon me, I will certainly clear a path for you, just one moment please.
Driver1 - Certainly, no hurry.
(not trying to make fun of british people but using a 1800's era gentlemanly conversation to ilustrate my point)

Since when is a race a game? FRC is not supposed to be nascar it's supposed to a real game with a field not a track! (not dissing nascar or racing but this is not what FIRST robotics games should be in my opinion)

Yes many of the matches last year were very low scoring because there was a lot of defense played and many teams were not effective at scoring against the defense.

But in order to have an exciting game in my opinion you need that struggle between the defence and the offence. One team trying desperately to score and another trying euqally to stop them from scoring or to score more than them.

Don't get me wrong we will make one kick butt robot.

Anyway that is my two cents.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

As far as I can tell - not a single match has been played yet.
Just a little too early for me to form as strong opinion as this person.

I like change - nothing wrong with mixing things up. Forcing folks to think a bit out of the box and shaking things up is fine with me.

I have no pre-concieved notions about what makes a game good or bad - particularly this years game. I'm sure that will be alot more obvious as we move through the season.

And ... regardless of which way it does come out - everyone may not be as enthused as others will.

So be it - life wouldn't be as interesting, if we were all of the same opinion.

Mike

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I found it quite disheartening last year when well designed, offensive robots, were prevented from performing their designed task by defensive robots. (no offense to defensive robots from last year) This year, there are several ways to hinder offensive robots, such as trapping a ball in a corner and descoring, but no clear way to outright shut them down. If you want to get a higher score, than come up with a way to score more effectivly.

There is a LOT more to stategy than where you drive your robot during the match. What your robot does is strategy. How your alliance partners will work together is strategy. How to get the most out of hybrid mode is strategy. Did Aim High not have strategy because you had to score on a specific side of the field? Of course not. Just because you have to be moving in a set general direction dosen't take away strategy, it adds to it, as you must creativly work around this limitation.


And also, EVERY first game improves as the season goes along. Especially after week 1, nearly everyone on these forums disliked Rack n Roll. But now, although some may not love it, no one coniders it a failure, or anything of that sort. The GDC has never failed us. Just give the game time to play out.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

where can i find these updates that you speak of??

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

It is beneficial to make the FIRST website one of the tools you use during build season. A lot of information is there and is available to help teams.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

At first I was a little disappointed with the game; mainly because it sounds kind of easy. But the more I think about it and learn more and understand more about the game I have found that this will be a challenging, interesting, and exciting game. It takes a lot of thought trying finding a way to pick up that big of a ball. There will be many interesting bumps, and a lot of cool spots. an almost impossible example of this is that if robot A drops a track ball onto the field, then robot B comes along and juggles the trackball around the track, then scores a hurdle. How awesome would that be? Now I know that is not likely, but it is still cool to think of.

And I think we should have to talk in British accents, in a gentlemanly way. I mean that is just so awesome

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Alright!

48 hours in and already people complaining. Not looking forward to the next six weeks?

While I'll admit I am not wild about the game, I am still pumped for another year with gear worth more than my car.(98 jeep wrangler, piece of trash)

The point is, when life gives you lemons, make powdered lemon flavored drink. Make the best of the situation, complaining will only make you feel worse and worse about it.

Don't like the game? Try joining the marketing team or spirit; anything that doesn't directly work with the robot.

It's gonna be interesting to see how people play the game this year with the drastic changes though.

Chris McKenzie
2186

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

This years game is a race. Defense isn't needed IMO. You're essentially racing your opponent to score more than them in the time period. There are no expendable pieces this year, they can be scored over and over.

It's much different than most of the previous games without a doubt. But it's not bad, certainly a change though.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Personally I beleive this game is much more than a race. If you just look at the bigger picture than you will see that the hurdling aspect of the game makes it much different. Do I like it? no. But will I play it? yes.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Ya know...its gotta be tough being a member of the Game Design Committee. Each year, they must create a game which challenges teams in design and strategy. In order to do this, they have to throw in a major monkey wrench EVERY YEAR. That is not an easy task to accomplish. To just change up a game piece and a goal each year would be quite boring. In order to get the fresh twists each year, sometimes the GDC has to do things that not everyone will like. (Look at the 01 game) Sometimes the game will be played out, and it will be a hit. Sometimes, it will be a miss...other times, right in the middle. The true beauty is, no matter what the game (Yes, even 2001), we spend these 6 weeks going crazy with design strategy, and trying to figure out a way to work the plot twists that the GDC throws at us...and its a blast.

My point...enjoy the time you have now. Reguardless of what takes place on the field come March, this is the true beauty of FIRST. Live it, breathe it, enjoy it..because we all know, in a matter of a couple of weeks you'll be sleeping it.

Will the game be as exciting as alot of people think? That remains to be seen. However, kudos to the Game Design Committee for throwing out yet another difficult twist.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

My first reaction to this year's game is not appropriate for CD. My second reaction was that it will be one of the most boring things I have ever seen; to pass time, I often watch matches on SOAP/TBA in the off-season and I felt that I wouldn't be able to do that this summer (too dull...). After a while I pretty much have stabilized my opinions to this:

• The early regionals will be boring
• There will be a lot of boxbots
• There will be a lot of broken arms
• Many teams will gear their robots too fast and damage them
• There will be a wide variety of poorly thought out omnidirectional systems
• There will be a bunch of slow, boring arms on slow, boring robots
• Trackballs will destroy ( or heavily damage) at least one robot per event
• The Championship will be very exciting, especially Einstein

So, I still have reservations (no defense strikes me as rather lame... I liked the cat-and-mouse game of good defense), but the game is growing on me somewhat. I think FIRST has produced multiple games that are better (2000, 2006, 2004, etc), but this isn't an awful game by any means.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Why does it always come down to complaining? It's a game. It's a challenge. Face it like a man, build a robot to play the game and get over it.

Last year when 2007 game was released, a lot of people have said that it was going to be boring, or you won't see that many tubes capped. It's never an exciting game until you see quality robots playing the game.

You can do a LOT with the game given this year. Think, design and create a quality machine that won't make the game boring rather than wasting you time sitting here on the forum complaining about how boring it is.

I am sorry if my post offended anyone, but there seemed to be too much complaining since last season. I have said this before and I am going to say it again. You CAN'T make everyone happy. It's not a perfect world. Deal with the rules and play the game.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I agree with what Einstein has posted above.

Yes, that is my new nickname for Arefin. :)

Andy B.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Madison, we were considering this even with the restrictions. In fact, doing this behind the overpass was and is legal. The only risk is breaking the plane going backwards. What's now legal is pulling the same stunt in front of the overpass as well. And the prime risk in all these endeavors is the chance of an 8 lb ball at decent velocity toppling your robot or breaking an arm.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Its Mario Kart with balls and really, whats more fun and frustrating (FIRST style) than Mario Kart?:D

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

You know, my initial response was definitely one of "What the heck is this?"

But once again, my brain started swirling, and just like every year, I have one of those "Magic Eye" moments.... you know, how you start to see the cool little 3d image through all the static that's right in front of your face?

The solution to FIRST challenges should never be about coming up with the "l33t drive trainx0rz to pwn all teh newbz who try to play the game". It isn't about trying to come up with loopholes to the rules. The amount of "hawt robot on robot action" is not what we should gauge our opinions of the game design on.

In years past, rookie teams, or teams without resources, that were unsuccessful at making a manipulator would make wonderful alliance opponents, because you knew that robots without a solid means to participate would be minor nuisances at best.

In this year's game, they've CONSIDERABLY raised the difficulty of the challenge, while simultaneously raising the accessibility factor of the game to less-experienced or less-technical teams. These little bots can now be a factor in the scoring of the game, and can continue to play both an offensive and defensive role with a half-working machine (even if its a team who had a manipulator that broke during practice rounds).

The real challenge for the veteran teams is to maximize their score potential through a more carefully thought out hybrid period, and by consistently being able to maximize every scoring opportunity they can. An let me tell you, I can't WAIT to dig into that IR board.

I honestly wonder at this point whether or not this game will get a bit more boring to watch as the season progresses, but it's too early to tell.

One suggestion I would make to all teams is to try to build part of an overpass and place a fully-inflated trackball on it before trying to come to any conclusions about the game. I'm impressed at the challenge, and am looking forward to it.

I think that FIRST did something magical by taking this a step in a different direction. Woodie made it pretty clear that as a FIRST team this year, it's your job to embrace the spirit of the challenge, and to understand that the magic in a competition isn't finding creative ways to make an opponent lose, but finding even more creative ways for you to win. Doing things the same way over and over will eventually cause it to lose its magic, and while I don't always take kindly to a change like this at first, I eventually adapt and drink the kool-aid.

So there's my rant for the 2008 season. Geez, and its only the first school day after kickoff! That didn't take too long!

Good luck everyone!

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

If at first you do not like this game, just sit back and really think about it. Brainstorm. Fill whiteboards and napkins with ideas, drawings, sketches. Debate these with your team. Build your robot. Compete at the competition. Take a nice long rest afterwards to let everything sink in, then share your opinions about the game with all of us, where we can use this feedback to possibly help shape future FRC games.


Unlike previous year's games where effective offense took skilled drivers and efficiently-engineered mechanisms and defense took little thought and just a Kitbot to ram other robots, FIRST has raised the bar for defense. With this game, they have basically declared that if you want to be an effective defensive team, it's going to take just as much thought about your mechanisms as it would take for offensive mechanisms.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I think the lack of defense in this year's game is awesome; it will allow teams to focus more on amazing mechanisms rather than a beefy drivetrain.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I concur with Chris' comments. In fact, I'm going to say something that bucks most of the threads on CD - I LOVE THIS GAME!

Okay, "Love" maybe a bit strong. But I think this is a facinating game. There are so many dimensions to this game. As they said at the kick off - See the simplicity on the other side of the chaos. If you see the simplicity on this side of the chaos, you are missing the point. This is going to be a great strategic game. Pure "muscle" doesn't get you there this year.

Of course, my team isn't the team who builds the robot - we develop the strategy for the robot - so, perhaps I am seeing this through those eyes! :)

So what does "get you there"? Well in my opinion, the great matches - and I hope the finals of each regional are great matches - will be teams who have seen this game as more than driving around in circles really fast. They will be teams who have thought about what the other teams are going to do, and what is possible within the rules. How to maximize the scoring potential, and do so in a cooperative manner. When that happens, it will be a lot of fun to watch, and a lot of fun to play 'that game'!

Good luck to all the teams! I hope to see you at Garden State, Chesapeake or Atlanta!

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Also, the lack of defense solidifies that this game is a RACE - the object is to go faster than the other guy to score more - not slow down and block to make the other guy score less.

THIS is why i think this year will be very fun and competitive.

Sam N.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I don't like this game because it didn't capture my imagination, make me look at things differently, and most importantly, make my brain hurt.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I'm not trying to sound mean but maybe your just not thinking hard enough.:]

I had some early reservations but I think this game will be really exciting in some matches and really really bad in others depending on the robots but this is the same EVERY YEAR. The only game I've seen in my four years in FIRST that's made me totally psyched the second I saw it was Aim High. Now, Rack and Roll is among my favorites and we'll just have to wait before we place this game on the shelf with the elite, or in the trash...

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Last year I was adamant about not liking the game, right up until the regional when I came to my senses, realized FIRST is always going to be fun and throughly enjoyed it. I almost had the same reaction I did last year at kickoff, but then I realized that it's still going to be a lot of fun because its still going to be FIRST.

Also, everyone says there will be no defense, but I disagree. Isn't it still defense if you knock the opposing alliances balls off the overpass? Or how about "nudging" as the manual calls it, a robot trying to get into place to hurdle? Think about it, what happens if you get behind them and push them over the line? They're not allowed to turn around and go back and try again like Rack-and-Roll, if you do it right they have to go all the way around the track to try again, or at least close to that. If you really play your cards right you might even manage to get their herding points reduced. Do it suddenly so that they don't manage to get rid of the ball, if it stays in contact with the robot as it crosses the line. There will still be defense in the game, just not quite the same it has been in years past.

Hope that made sense, I really need some sleep, my winter break ends today, school in the morning.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I agree with everything that Chris said. I LOVE this game and am really looking forward to seeing it played. Last year at the MC luncheon at the Championship, Woodie asked all of the us what we thought about the '07 game. My complaint to him was that the game didn't provide the gratification, reward, and sense of individual offensive contribution in each match for the younger teams with less resources, technological know how and experience at the most precarious times of their existence. Making a good ramp wasn't trivial and you had to rely on your alliance partner; handling the tubes and building an arm was deemed to difficult for many of the teams. Let's just say that things happen and don't always work out and I saw a lot of disheartened faces after matches (5 regionals and the CMP worth). In talks with Dean and Woodie, all 3 of us agreed that this problem had been addressed and felt really good about it.

Building sustainable teams is a huge issue in FIRST. Sure we gained 300 or so teams this year, but how many teams did we lose? It's not a statistic that we want to talk about or highlight, but it's an issue that all of the FIRST community particularly the seasoned teams need to consider. These younger teams are the majority and part of the future of our program. While I encourage free exchange of ideas and opinions. I think it is our responsibility to try to limit or carefully qualify and explain the negatives so these younger teams do not get discouraged as they see the veteran players complaining, while making the effort to be positive on these forums and in our encounters with these teams throughout build and competition season. The overall level of play is only going to get better if we transition more young teams into experienced confident vets. As talking to Jane Young this past weekend reminded me, we need to show them that the glass is half full, not half empty, and challenge them to fill the remaining space.

Further reasons why I like this game:
On the other side there were escalating challenges for the more seasoned teams. This is one of the largest game objects we have had in FIRST and among the heaviest, the slick cover adds a whole new dimension to the use of large balls. Designing a game to provide an attainable challenge for teams across the spectrum is difficult. But I think the GDC nailed it and I thanked everyone of them I could at the kickoff.

It's easy to dismiss this game as silly and NASCAR like, which btw there's nothing wrong with. I wanna go FAST!!! But more importantly the GDC payed a lot of attention to the fluidity of the game. I really think we'll see a lot of movement and not just in circles with the many ways the teams can tackle this year's challenge. The catch and release clause for teams rolling the ball across the line was well thought out, not allowing the teams to just capture a ball and drive around for the entire match. There's dimension and depth to this game which should provide for a lot of visual excitement.

I'm thrilled about hybrid mode. The GDC really made this period worth it in the scores. I can't wait to see what kind of combination control inputs/methodologies teams come up with. The challenge of simply driving over the your start finish line to score points in this period is fantastic. This encourages all teams to move in this period. There is no reason we should see robots take a static defensive position during the hybrid period as we've seen in the past. Veteran teams it is my challenge to you before and at the regionals that NO ROBOT GETS LEFT BEHIND in hybrid everyone DRIVES at the very least to attempt to cross one or two lines. Just giving them the code doesn't count. I fully expect you to help them understand the commands, answer their questions, leave them with the confidence that they can do it to, and if they have questions you'll be there to help them.

This game encourages creativity and challenges us to think across the board with something for everyone. For that reason it's a winner in my book. I'm ready to be amazed by what teams come up with. The question is will you be open minded enough to be inspired by this game and what solutions the FIRST community presents too?

Re: why I don't like this year's gamen
 

Visions of 2005 dancing in my head.

If I were an alliance containing 2-3 extremely successful and dominant bots representing some of the "Hendrick Motorsports" teams of FIRST, I'd certainly love for the relative Dave Blaneys of the robot world to believe in the all-encompassing mantra expressed above. It would make Hendrick teams' domination that much easier.

It is the responsibility of each alliance to evaluate their offensive capabilities relative to that of their opponent before each match. If an alliance of Blaneys determines they do not have the mix of offensive skills needed to overcome the skills of the Hendrick teams in a straight-up race, then they have an obligation not only to themselves but to the AUDIENCE to investigate appropriate, creative, and legal means of slowing down the scoring of the opposing alliance. Effectively employing at least one of your bots toward interrupting the best-laid plans of the zippy and efficient opposition may just let you balance the scoring enough to where luck and other factors may swing the result into your alliance's favor.

Blind faith in the perseverance of "the little alliance that could" in 2008 will often result in the blind waking up at the end of the journey and finding that the high-speed bullet train lapped you 20 times and arrived two hours previous to you, precisely because they were left to travel on a different track with absolutely no unexpected delays.

Sometimes you gotta throw a cow onto the tracks to slow 'em down. I do recognize and appreciate the much wider selection of cows offered by the GDC to teams this year than in recent seasons.

Defense isn't dead....it's just been reincarnated....as a cow of a different color.....:rolleyes:

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Drop a trackball on your head, that'll make your brain hurt. :yikes:

My initial reaction was being underwhelmed, to say the least. Then we got the ball out. Geez, we gotta pick up that thing?! I thought making the bot would be easy this year.

Maybe there's not as much strategy in point manipulation as there was in Rack n Roll or Triple Play. It's more like racking up points in Aim High. But there still will be strategy. The simple fact that your team of 3 only has 2 game pieces leads to all sorts of strategic decisions.

I'm willing to let things simmer a while to see what kind of soup we get in the end.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

They're trying to challenge us by making things harder. They did say that, if you don't recall. How are we supposed to learn if things just come easy to us? We don't. Our minds need to expand on ways to score more than the opposing team. So what if we can't play defense in the ways that we've played in the past. There are other ways that just need some brainstorming & rule reviewing.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

my first thought was that it ws agrevating that you couldent play defence especially since my team is great at playing defence but is still a great game this yeaar even thought therre wint be much varience in robot design

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

My team has basically ONLY played defense all 3 years we've been a part of FIRST. This year we're challenged to make more than that.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I think that is a key point in this whole discussion.
Our thinking can form itself into patterns that we are familiar with. We have an incredible tool - our brain/thinking processes. Yet, we often fall into set patterns of thinking, narrowing our range of possibilities and challenges when we do that. This year, the GDC offers us all an opportunity to expand, explore. Technology isn't going to stop developing. Innovation isn't going to stop. If we think we have the skill sets we need for the next 5, 10, 15, 40 years, we need to think again. And again. Flexibility is a great asset to have when participating in the exciting program called FIRST. It's kind of like - get a bigger hammer, but along the lines of having a more receptive mindset.

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I don't like the flagpole i have to invade my space with

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

I want to come up with some witty response, but eh I won't. When I can imagine seeing at the VCU regional again teams just racing in a circle, gently nudging eachother to pass, to score, then I'm falling asleep. We're talking about a regional where many matches were 20 vs. 10 in 2005 (with those scores being the robots getting to the end zone). How about we stop having this great big gap between what teams can do (either easy tasks that make boiling water look hard) or things only Wildstang can accomplish (10lb 40" ball anyone?)

Give me 2006 any day, I wish I had waited a year to go out on a bag with that game. Anyone with a wheel and a hopper could shoot balls or dump 'em, that was a game that always left me in awe...

Re: why I don't like this year's game
 

Joe... not to start an argument here; but do you honestly think it is that hard to control the 40" ball (if yes, you need to sit down and think about this challenge a bit more)? Do you honestly think that there won't be many teams who will attempt and accomplish to control the 40" ball? Come on bro, it's a game, let's make it exciting. If you sit there and you have your mind set on the game being boring; it won't be nothing but boring for you.

Why I DO love this years game.
 

I appreciate the changes.

Last year I watched our team (I'm a mentor) get slammed from half court ramming speed. You could see one particular opponent gear shift, speed up, and just drill robots. The 'no ramming' rule was NEVER enforced. I watched a little 'tank' robot (cute little thing) take a hit that was hard enough to snap a 1/2" steel shaft pin- the firing mechanism (from 2 years ago) dangled through the entire match.

I have video of a 'claw' holding onto our robot's arm for well over 45 seconds- and they were assessed only a 10 point penalty whereas we were unable to score anything since they ripped an airline out.

In short, I've been watching 'battle bots' under the guise of gracious professionalism and 'win at any cost' masquerading as defense.

Some teams are very much dedicated and work throughout the year. They reuse code from year to year, have dedicated test platforms... it's nice to have a year of 'break' to recover and try to rebuild.

So please understand that when I hear how you can't run into people from behind and call it defense, or that when you can't slap an arm and call it defense I may be inclined to roll my eyes and smile.

This year you're just going to have to be faster and cooperate better than you've ever had to before.

In every other year each bot could be it's own team. This year there's only two balls and three robots- you've got to cooperate. You can't go out and solo. You need to be consider all tasks and pick the best ones for a good alliance.

Yes.... this will be an interesting year. I'm looking forward to it.

Now if we could just get a smaller court...