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-   -   Hurdling using the overpass (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61123)

ubergeek5075 09-01-2008 15:23
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Our team is looking at doing basically the same thing, but we would hit it hopefully at upwards of 8fps, so it would go over based on momentum, and based on the rules we believe it's legal.

Also, concerning those 4 scenarios, the rules about hurdling would really make all 4 of those legal if I'm reading them right. However, i'll need to take a second look, i haven't looked at them for 24 hours. This has been the only year I've had to look at the rules constantly.

ALIBI 09-01-2008 19:14
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 673225)
The problem might be in the second point of the definition of HURDLING. While the ball is sitting on the overpass, the team has given up POSSESSION.

Variations on this scenario (all assume counterclockwise direction):
  1. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then immediately knocks it off.
  2. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then Redabot 2 knocks it off.
  3. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, circles the track, and then knocks it off the next lap
  4. Redabot puts the ball on the overpass, and then Blueabot knocks it off.

Which of these counts as a hurdle?
Answer assumes that the trackball can score (G12)

Since the trackball has not crossed (by definition) the plane of the finish line when it was placed on the overpass. All of these would count as a Hurdle as long as the last robot to touch the trackball before it completely passes throught the plane of the finish line does not touch it before it touches the floor or another robot. One of the keys here is that in all cases the trackball is knocked off vs. being lifted (possesed) and carried off.

It will be interesting to see what happens when you remove your opponents trackball that has been placed on the overpass at the end of the match. If it meets G12, you knock it off in a counter-clockwise direction and it hits another robot or the floor before it touches you, you may have just given them a hurdle.

jediptm 09-01-2008 22:15
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIBI (Post 673770)
Answer assumes that the trackball can score (G12)

Since the trackball has not crossed (by definition) the plane of the finish line when it was placed on the overpass. All of these would count as a Hurdle as long as the last robot to touch the trackball before it completely passes throught the plane of the finish line does not touch it before it touches the floor or another robot. One of the keys here is that in all cases the trackball is knocked off vs. being lifted (possesed) and carried off.

It will be interesting to see what happens when you remove your opponents trackball that has been placed on the overpass at the end of the match. If it meets G12, you knock it off in a counter-clockwise direction and it hits another robot or the floor before it touches you, you may have just given them a hurdle.
It would seem to me that if you combine the definition of Hurdle "HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT." with the scoring table that gives you zero points for knocking a ball off during the teleoperated period (top of page 6), my assumption would be that any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points. Probably need a Q&A call here.

ALIBI 09-01-2008 22:49
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediptm (Post 673940)
It would seem to me that if you combine the definition of Hurdle "HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT." with the scoring table that gives you zero points for knocking a ball off during the teleoperated period (top of page 6), my assumption would be that any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points. Probably need a Q&A call here.
I agree, a Q & A may be necessary for clarification. Looking at G12:

<G12> A TRACKBALL must CROSS a LANE MARKER before it can score for the first time by HURDLING or CROSSING its FINISH LINE.

I would like to think that the rules are saying the "FIRST TIME" a trackball is taken off the overpass you get 8pts if it happens during Hybrid and 0pts if it happens during Teleop, that is, it was not removed during Hybrid. After the first time it is removed, as long as it crosses over a lane marker, placing it on the overpass and then knocking counter-clockwise will be a hurdle. Could make removing an opponents trackball from the overpass a little more tricky. I do not understand why someone would turn a hurdle into a two step, two robot process in the first place, if you are up there, finish the job.

lancerbotics 10-01-2008 17:16
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Our question is once you set the tracball on the overpass and knock it over is your bot allowed to go in reverse on the course in order to allow it to clear the overpass?

Bob Steele 10-01-2008 18:17
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALIBI (Post 673770)
Answer assumes that the trackball can score (G12)

Since the trackball has not crossed (by definition) the plane of the finish line when it was placed on the overpass. All of these would count as a Hurdle as long as the last robot to touch the trackball before it completely passes through the plane of the finish line does not touch it before it touches the floor or another robot. One of the keys here is that in all cases the trackball is knocked off vs. being lifted (possessed) and carried off.

It will be interesting to see what happens when you remove your opponents trackball that has been placed on the overpass at the end of the match. If it meets G12, you knock it off in a counter-clockwise direction and it hits another robot or the floor before it touches you, you may have just given them a hurdle.
This is an excellent insight... I had never thought about this but I guess we will find out. It seems to me that hurdling is actually something the trackball does and therefore it would not make a difference who or what was the active agent. It seems to be the act of passing over the home zone line above the overpass.

Another question which is similar is whether the trackball that is left on the overpass (which is still in the home zone..) is counted as a hurdle when someone knocks it down during tele.

It seems that the Hybrid act of knocking the trackball off in the HOME zone is really a hurdle... the only difference during hybrid play is that ANY trackball scores the 8 points....

This is a good question for Q and A..

The_Laughing_ManMII 10-01-2008 18:22
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
does anyone have any ideas for a forklift? thats what our team is trying to do, but we haven't had any plausable designs that wouldn't be illegal...

Brian J. R. 10-01-2008 18:22
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Now I don't have the rules in front of me, but from what we could say in our team's small brainstorm groups that, if a hurdle is defined as the track ball going over the overpass, and hitting the ground or another robot before you can pick it up again, if the blue alliance was to put up one track ball, and the red alliance knocks it down, then it is following all of the rules of a hurdle, as a trackball really has no care as to who scores it, and it did go over the overpass, touching another robot as well as the floor.

Just my 2 cents

The_Laughing_ManMII 10-01-2008 18:24
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian J. R. (Post 674607)
Now I don't have the rules in front of me, but from what we could say in our team's small brainstorm groups that, if a hurdle is defined as the track ball going over the overpass, and hitting the ground or another robot before you can pick it up again, if the blue alliance was to put up one track ball, and the red alliance knocks it down, then it is following all of the rules of a hurdle, as a trackball really has no care as to who scores it, and it did go over the overpass, touching another robot as well as the floor.

Just my 2 cents
that does make sense...

feliks_rosenber 11-01-2008 15:27
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
I suggest we all wait until the team updates are out.
Right now, there is so much space for different insights and interpretations of the rules.

As to hurdling- I believe that you can either lift the ball, leave it on the overpass and then another bot would knock it off or you can shoot it.
If the trackball crosses the finish line over the overpass it doesn't matter whether it hit the overpass on the way as long as it crossed it from above.

The question is, however, whether you can stay before the finish line with your bot and hurdle numerous times after the ball bounces from another robot back to you from under the overpass.

It would make the game boring, monotone and lacking dynamics but it would require cooperation between teams in the alliance and that's exactly the spirit of FIRST.

EricH 11-01-2008 15:30
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by feliks_rosenber (Post 675351)
As to hurdling- I believe that you can either lift the ball, leave it on the overpass and then another bot would knock it off or you can shoot it.
If the trackball crosses the finish line over the overpass it doesn't matter whether it hit the overpass on the way as long as it crossed it from above.

The question is, however, whether you can stay before the finish line with your bot and hurdle numerous times after the ball bounces from another robot back to you from under the overpass.
I could almost accuse you of reading the Q&A forums (not that that's a bad thing). Q&A has answered that if the ball is on the overpass and goes off forward (CCW), it is a hurdle.

As to the other, I don't think so. See <G13>.

dlavery 11-01-2008 15:45
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediptm (Post 673940)
It would seem to me that if you combine the definition of Hurdle "HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT." with the scoring table that gives you zero points for knocking a ball off during the teleoperated period (top of page 6), my assumption would be that any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points. Probably need a Q&A call here.
For the sake of clarity, can you explain this? I am not sure I understand how you reached the "any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points" conclusion.

I would just note that "passing above" and "making contact with" the Overpass are not mutually exclusive.

-dave

IbleedPink233 13-01-2008 16:00
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 673225)
The problem might be in the second point of the definition of HURDLING. While the ball is sitting on the overpass, the team has given up POSSESSION.

Variations on this scenario (all assume counterclockwise direction):
  1. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then immediately knocks it off.
  2. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then Redabot 2 knocks it off.
  3. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, circles the track, and then knocks it off the next lap
  4. Redabot puts the ball on the overpass, and then Blueabot knocks it off.

Which of these counts as a hurdle?
All of them are valid as long as the Trackball has circled around the opponents' Finish Line beforehand, the Trackball crosses in the forward (counter-clockwise around the Track) direction, and the Trackball doesn't hit Redabot 1 before it hits the ground or another bot after it crosses the Finish Line.
In other words,

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored
TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

dlavery - I think the way that he sees it, placing it up there first and then knocking it off is equivalent to knocking it off - earning no points by the scoring table in the manual.
This is true, but you do get points, anyway, since it counts as a Hurdle.

Swan217 14-01-2008 02:21
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 673225)
The problem might be in the second point of the definition of HURDLING. While the ball is sitting on the overpass, the team has given up POSSESSION.

Variations on this scenario (all assume counterclockwise direction):
  1. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then immediately knocks it off.
  2. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then Redabot 2 knocks it off.
  3. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, circles the track, and then knocks it off the next lap
  4. Redabot puts the ball on the overpass, and then Blueabot knocks it off.
Which of these counts as a hurdle?
This topic is discussed on FIRSTruth this week.

Watch it at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74444323&hl=en

P.S. - in a short answer - Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle

Guy Davidson 14-01-2008 03:21
Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 673225)
  1. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then immediately knocks it off.
  2. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then Redabot 2 knocks it off.
  3. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, circles the track, and then knocks it off the next lap
  4. Redabot puts the ball on the overpass, and then Blueabot knocks it off.

Which of these counts as a hurdle?
Unless I remember the rule wrong, they're all hurdles. I don't have a copy of the manual in front of me, but if I remember correctly, to count as a hurdle, the ball as the cross the finish line over the overpass, and hit the ground or another robot before touching your robot again.

In scenario one, this is obviously fulfilled (I'm assuming that the ball touches the ground before you touch it again).

In scenario two, I would be confused as to who does the ball not have to touch - red 1 or red 2 - but if it touches neither, or whichever it can, it sounds like a hurdle to me.

In scenario three, I again see no problem with red 1 doing the extra lap before knocking the ball off.

In scenario four, I again see no conflict with the rules.

Summary: To me, they all sounds like valid hurdles, with the interesting question stemming from scenario two - who must avoid the ball?


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