Hurdling using the overpass
 

I realize that this question has been asked (sort of) on other threads and answered (again, sort of). However, given our specific strategy, I am curious as to if this technique would count.

So, our theory is that we get the ball to around 6 feet, the push it from below such that the TRACKBALL rolls up onto the OVERPASS. (we've tested it and it works). Now, if the ball rolls all the way across and falls off then we just let it bounce and continue on. However, if it settles into one of the depressions (far more likely) we just push it out (with the same device that pushed it on) and onto the next quad (completing the CROSSING) and then proceed to let it bounce and then we gain control again and so forth.

If either scenario (especially the second) happens, is it a hurdle? I would say yes, simply because it crosses the finsih line while being above the overpass (remember, crossing isn't complete until the whole thing goes over the line). What do you think?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

The only real restrictions on Hurdling are that the Trackball has to go over the Overpass and that it has to touch the ground or another bot afterwards, so your tactics look legit to me.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I believe that your analogy is correct.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Sorry, but by analogy being correct, do you think that it would count as a hurdle?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Yes, our team is also looking at this being a legal hurdle... If I hear different I will post a new reply.

David

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

All of these points seem valid with what you want to do. I don't see any problem with pushing it over. The only thing I can see that may pose as an issue is speed. But, its perfectly legal it looks like.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

THere is no mention of speed in the rule, so it sure sounds like a hurdle to me!

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I wasn't saying too fast or too slow. However, in general it would be slower than just placing it over the overpass.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

How legal is this:

Get the ball over the overpass, without passing the finishline yourself, and then have an alliance member push the ball back to you. Then repeat.

There isn't any rule about the ball going backwards around the track (that I know of):D .

(Edit) Sorry, forgot about rule <G13>, that ball has to pass the other alliances finish line.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

You can do that, but it will only be scored as a hurdle if it passes over the opposing alliances finish line every time....

see rule <G13>

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Should be fine as long as the hurdling robot is not impeading and the alliance robot is able to make the trackball cross over the opposing alliances finish line before it returns it to the hurdler.

Note: the alliance robot could pass the trackball directly back to the hurdling robot so that the hurling robot could place the trackball on the overpass for the 12pt bonus at the end without having the trackball cross the opposing alliances finish line

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

You're right Squirrel, Sorry.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

id say that it would b a complete hurdle because it did go completly over the over pass

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

The problem might be in the second point of the definition of HURDLING. While the ball is sitting on the overpass, the team has given up POSSESSION.

Variations on this scenario (all assume counterclockwise direction):

1. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then immediately knocks it off.
2. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, and then Redabot 2 knocks it off.
3. Redabot 1 puts the ball on the overpass, circles the track, and then knocks it off the next lap
4. Redabot puts the ball on the overpass, and then Blueabot knocks it off.

Which of these counts as a hurdle?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Hard to tell. Hurdling is defined for a robot, but the definition of Hurdle--which is separate--is a little unclear. At this point, Scenario 3 wouldn't count (I think) because it would be a place and a knockdown. Scenario 1 might count, if the ball never settled. I'm not sure about the other 2 scenarios.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Our team is looking at doing basically the same thing, but we would hit it hopefully at upwards of 8fps, so it would go over based on momentum, and based on the rules we believe it's legal.

Also, concerning those 4 scenarios, the rules about hurdling would really make all 4 of those legal if I'm reading them right. However, i'll need to take a second look, i haven't looked at them for 24 hours. This has been the only year I've had to look at the rules constantly.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Answer assumes that the trackball can score (G12)

Since the trackball has not crossed (by definition) the plane of the finish line when it was placed on the overpass. All of these would count as a Hurdle as long as the last robot to touch the trackball before it completely passes throught the plane of the finish line does not touch it before it touches the floor or another robot. One of the keys here is that in all cases the trackball is knocked off vs. being lifted (possesed) and carried off.

It will be interesting to see what happens when you remove your opponents trackball that has been placed on the overpass at the end of the match. If it meets G12, you knock it off in a counter-clockwise direction and it hits another robot or the floor before it touches you, you may have just given them a hurdle.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

It would seem to me that if you combine the definition of Hurdle "HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT." with the scoring table that gives you zero points for knocking a ball off during the teleoperated period (top of page 6), my assumption would be that any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points. Probably need a Q&A call here.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I agree, a Q & A may be necessary for clarification. Looking at G12:

<G12> A TRACKBALL must CROSS a LANE MARKER before it can score for the first time by HURDLING or CROSSING its FINISH LINE.

I would like to think that the rules are saying the "FIRST TIME" a trackball is taken off the overpass you get 8pts if it happens during Hybrid and 0pts if it happens during Teleop, that is, it was not removed during Hybrid. After the first time it is removed, as long as it crosses over a lane marker, placing it on the overpass and then knocking counter-clockwise will be a hurdle. Could make removing an opponents trackball from the overpass a little more tricky. I do not understand why someone would turn a hurdle into a two step, two robot process in the first place, if you are up there, finish the job.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Our question is once you set the tracball on the overpass and knock it over is your bot allowed to go in reverse on the course in order to allow it to clear the overpass?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

This is an excellent insight... I had never thought about this but I guess we will find out. It seems to me that hurdling is actually something the trackball does and therefore it would not make a difference who or what was the active agent. It seems to be the act of passing over the home zone line above the overpass.

Another question which is similar is whether the trackball that is left on the overpass (which is still in the home zone..) is counted as a hurdle when someone knocks it down during tele.

It seems that the Hybrid act of knocking the trackball off in the HOME zone is really a hurdle... the only difference during hybrid play is that ANY trackball scores the 8 points....

This is a good question for Q and A..

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

does anyone have any ideas for a forklift? thats what our team is trying to do, but we haven't had any plausable designs that wouldn't be illegal...

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Now I don't have the rules in front of me, but from what we could say in our team's small brainstorm groups that, if a hurdle is defined as the track ball going over the overpass, and hitting the ground or another robot before you can pick it up again, if the blue alliance was to put up one track ball, and the red alliance knocks it down, then it is following all of the rules of a hurdle, as a trackball really has no care as to who scores it, and it did go over the overpass, touching another robot as well as the floor.

Just my 2 cents

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

that does make sense...

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I suggest we all wait until the team updates are out.
Right now, there is so much space for different insights and interpretations of the rules.

As to hurdling- I believe that you can either lift the ball, leave it on the overpass and then another bot would knock it off or you can shoot it.
If the trackball crosses the finish line over the overpass it doesn't matter whether it hit the overpass on the way as long as it crossed it from above.

The question is, however, whether you can stay before the finish line with your bot and hurdle numerous times after the ball bounces from another robot back to you from under the overpass.

It would make the game boring, monotone and lacking dynamics but it would require cooperation between teams in the alliance and that's exactly the spirit of FIRST.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I could almost accuse you of reading the Q&A forums (not that that's a bad thing). Q&A has answered that if the ball is on the overpass and goes off forward (CCW), it is a hurdle.

As to the other, I don't think so. See <G13>.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

For the sake of clarity, can you explain this? I am not sure I understand how you reached the "any ball set on the overpass and then subsequently knocked off would score zero points" conclusion.

I would just note that "passing above" and "making contact with" the Overpass are not mutually exclusive.

-dave

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

All of them are valid as long as the Trackball has circled around the opponents' Finish Line beforehand, the Trackball crosses in the forward (counter-clockwise around the Track) direction, and the Trackball doesn't hit Redabot 1 before it hits the ground or another bot after it crosses the Finish Line.
In other words,

<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored
TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.

dlavery - I think the way that he sees it, placing it up there first and then knocking it off is equivalent to knocking it off - earning no points by the scoring table in the manual.
This is true, but you do get points, anyway, since it counts as a Hurdle.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

This topic is discussed on FIRSTruth this week.

Watch it at:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...74444323&hl=en

P.S. - in a short answer - Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle, Yes Hurdle

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Unless I remember the rule wrong, they're all hurdles. I don't have a copy of the manual in front of me, but if I remember correctly, to count as a hurdle, the ball as the cross the finish line over the overpass, and hit the ground or another robot before touching your robot again.

In scenario one, this is obviously fulfilled (I'm assuming that the ball touches the ground before you touch it again).

In scenario two, I would be confused as to who does the ball not have to touch - red 1 or red 2 - but if it touches neither, or whichever it can, it sounds like a hurdle to me.

In scenario three, I again see no problem with red 1 doing the extra lap before knocking the ball off.

In scenario four, I again see no conflict with the rules.

Summary: To me, they all sounds like valid hurdles, with the interesting question stemming from scenario two - who must avoid the ball?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Please note that my original question was put up BEFORE the Q&A answer that clarified all of this. In the light of that answer, all of these scenarios are hurdles. Prior to that, it could have been questioned whether or not these counted.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Question:
If you hurdle, does it have to pass your opponent's finish line before it counts as a hurdle again? Or can you nudge the ball backwards so you teammate can hurdle the same ball right after you without the ball making another lap?

If this is possible, two robots working together could hurdle much quicker.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I'll just refer you to the manual on this one...

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

COuld someone please answer this question for us?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

As long as you have not fully crossed a line, you may go backward. Once past, you cannot go back.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

You are permitted to "go in reverse" as long as you do not thusly start to cross a line that you have just crossed going forward. I don't know exactly what you have in mind, but it sounds to me like your robot hasn't fully crossed the finish line when it pushes the trackball off the overpass, and it should therefore not be a problem to back up a foot or so to get out of the way of the falling trackball.

The correct "someone" is the Game Design Committee. Have your team's representative ask your question in the official Q&A forum.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

you guys might want to take a close look at rule <G35> it all depends on how hard you are talking about hitting the overpass.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I've got a slightly different twist on the before mentioned scenario:


If redabot, in an attempt to hurdle, places the red trackball on the overpass and blueabot, in an attempt to stop the hurdle knocks the red trackball forward off the overpass and the red trackball strikes blueabot before the red trackball hits the ground ... is it a hurdle?

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

I cannot see any reason why this would not count as a Hurdle - it doesn't matter how the Trackball gets over, as long as it does and doesn't touch the same bot before the ground or another bot.
However, you did make me think of a variation of the scenario described: what of instead of the Trackball landing on the Bluabot, it hit the Redabot? Once again, the way that the rules are written, this would invalidate the Hurdle - making this an interesting possibility for defense. However, I do not see this scenario (or it's original form described) as happening that often (it sounds an awful like a trimolecular event - for you chemistry nerds), so I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

Since Blueabot was the last to touch the Red Trackball before it completely passed through the plane of the finish line, Blueabot becomes the hurdler. If, as in this twist, Blueabot (or another blue alliance robot) touches the trackball before it touches a red alliance robot or the floor, it is not a hurdle.

Re: Hurdling using the overpass
 

HURDLE: When a TRACKBALL CROSSES a FINISH LINE while passing above the OVERPASS and then contacts either the floor or another ROBOT before re-contacting the originating ROBOT.
+
<G08> All TRACKBALL scores are awarded to the ALLIANCE associated with the scored
TRACKBALL, independent of the ROBOT that may have caused the scoring action to occur.
=
Red Alliance scores